WoW took the best parts of other MMOs and improved on them. Hell it even got the bad parts and made them more fun, or at least less mind numbing. The next MMO should do the same. Improve on the best part of CURRENT mmo's and improve on the bad ones.
So no ... not a WoW clone, but maybe WoW's bigger, badder, better sibling. As for the other WoW clones that failed ... they failed because they actually failed to copy WoW or even improve on it. WAR had horrible animations, horrible crafting, bad class design .. hell it was just a horrible all around design. It may be considered a WoW clone because of its similarities ... but in truth, its not a WoW clone.
Aion? May some consider it a clone because it copied the UI ... I guess ... maybe the smooth gameplay. But what is wrong with Aion? Force PvP? Frustrating grind and punishment design with both leveling and even crafting? Dull, unrewarding instances? Did WoW have any of that? Not really, and definitely not as bad as Aion.
LotRO? Very similar to WoW maybe ... i know for sure it was called a WoW clone at one time. But why did it fall behind? This PvPMP? Slow combat? Some stupid end game requirement of so that your character wont be cowering in fear the whole time? Horrible gear design? Is that WoW to you? No ... its what they did different. And that failed them.
The devs are on the right track (well ... most are). Take WoW's design and improve on it. They just need to do it right, and do it better. Maybe even make it **gasp** fun!
WoW took the best parts of other MMOs and improved on them. Hell it even got the bad parts and made them more fun, or at least less mind numbing. The next MMO should do the same. Improve on the best part of CURRENT mmo's and improve on the bad ones.
So no ... not a WoW clone, but maybe WoW's bigger, badder, better sibling. As for the other WoW clones that failed ... they failed because they actually failed to copy WoW or even improve on it. WAR had horrible animations, horrible crafting, bad class design .. hell it was just a horrible all around design. It may be considered a WoW clone because of its similarities ... but in truth, its not a WoW clone.
Aion? May some consider it a clone because it copied the UI ... I guess ... maybe the smooth gameplay. But what is wrong with Aion? Force PvP? Frustrating grind and punishment design with both leveling and even crafting? Dull, unrewarding instances? Did WoW have any of that? Not really, and definitely not as bad as Aion.
LotRO? Very similar to WoW maybe ... i know for sure it was called a WoW clone at one time. But why did it fall behind? This PvPMP? Slow combat? Some stupid end game requirement of so that your character wont be cowering in fear the whole time? Horrible gear design? Is that WoW to you? No ... its what they did different. And that failed them.
The devs are on the right track (well ... most are). Take WoW's design and improve on it. They just need to do it right, and do it better. Maybe even make it **gasp** fun!
Themeparks will sell everytime. Provided they are done right. Even when done badly, they still get box sales to help recoup production cost....although when you go the shallow route of champions/STO, Craptic probably broke even/profited on box sales alone.
Themeparks get ripped when they differ from WoW. WoW gave the folks content & polish, something that is still lacking from the games that came after. Go read the FF 14 brds to get the latest story.
Folks keep dogging TOR, but barring some zaniness, it should sell like hot-cakes.
You take a gaming world, you throw in a bunch of polish & content, and you are going to do alright. LoTRO was hot at launch, as it had the polish. I would hazard to guess they didnt give enough content, and folks grew tired of it. The lack of consenting PVP probably didnt help matters either.
IMO it isnt a question of themepark vs sandbox. Rather it is more of a "how to do the themepark right" issue. You put up a half arse effort ala STO, then your game burns. Square should of seen this, and held off launch until game was ready. With AoC, WAR, and STO...there was plenty of examples out there.
Side note: AoC and WAR are a different animal as they were supposed to be PVP focused. If you allow the mechanics to force PVP on folks not wishing to partake, then it only takes one arse-munch to cost a game subs. I dont think you should ever force PVP on folks, as some people have no interest in it.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
So many developers seem to think that in order to be successful their game needs to emulate the industry leader, WoW. This is similar to the "knock-off" phenomenon you see in fashion where Louis Vatton puts out a $10,000 purse and then 2 weeks later there is a generic purse that looks exactly the same for $50. This works great in the fashion industry because, even though the knock-off is inferior to the name-brand, its price point is so much lower than many people will still purchase it. It appeals to a different market.
This logic does not apply to MMORPGs though. When a game is released, it is the most expensive it will ever be. As it ages, its price (typically) drops as it falls behind the technological curve. This is true of WoW and its expansions (the retail price at least).
So if I am a gaming company and I release a game that is designed to emulate WoW, my price point winds up being HIGHER than the original. So now my game is trying to be a better "WoW" than the real WoW that has been out for years and has several expansions AND my game is priced higher. What product would you purchase? The original at $20, or a knock-off that is bug-riddled and lacking in content at $60? Better graphics simply aren't enough to trump the huge advantage WoW has at being the best "WoW" out there.
These developers NEED to start segmenting the market. Instead of trying to make a game to be the next WoW, or the WoW-Killer, try to make a game that appeals to gamers that are being underserved by WoW. The sandbox crowd comes to mind for one, I'm sure there are more.
What are your thoughts? Do you agree that WoW clones are more or less destined to fail from a business perspective because they are competing with "the master?" Or do you think that there is merit in emulating the king?
Has it really been twenty minutes? Seems like every 20 minutes one of these threads pop up
Not to say I think that WoW didnt ruin the genre, but seriously guys. This conversation has happened a million times. Shut the fuck up already.
So many developers seem to think that in order to be successful their game needs to emulate the industry leader, WoW. This is similar to the "knock-off" phenomenon you see in fashion where Louis Vatton puts out a $10,000 purse and then 2 weeks later there is a generic purse that looks exactly the same for $50. This works great in the fashion industry because, even though the knock-off is inferior to the name-brand, its price point is so much lower than many people will still purchase it. It appeals to a different market.
This logic does not apply to MMORPGs though. When a game is released, it is the most expensive it will ever be. As it ages, its price (typically) drops as it falls behind the technological curve. This is true of WoW and its expansions (the retail price at least).
So if I am a gaming company and I release a game that is designed to emulate WoW, my price point winds up being HIGHER than the original. So now my game is trying to be a better "WoW" than the real WoW that has been out for years and has several expansions AND my game is priced higher. What product would you purchase? The original at $20, or a knock-off that is bug-riddled and lacking in content at $60? Better graphics simply aren't enough to trump the huge advantage WoW has at being the best "WoW" out there.
These developers NEED to start segmenting the market. Instead of trying to make a game to be the next WoW, or the WoW-Killer, try to make a game that appeals to gamers that are being underserved by WoW. The sandbox crowd comes to mind for one, I'm sure there are more.
What are your thoughts? Do you agree that WoW clones are more or less destined to fail from a business perspective because they are competing with "the master?" Or do you think that there is merit in emulating the king?
I don't think anyone goes into game development with the intentions of being a "wow clone" and have seen enough games that try to be different fail to say devs should develop with they are comfortable with but make sure they are honest about what is and isn't in the game then the community needs to get over games that don't appeal to their gameplay styles.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
It's completely okay to clone a successful product....just make it better. Hmmm what happened to myspace?...Oh yeah facebook made a better myspace and took most of their customers.
the king?as it really been twenty minutes? Seems like every 20 minutes one of these threads pop up
Perhaps it should pop up every 2 minutes then. Because people over here simply don't understand the theory.
Because even now - after the latest FF14 debacle and part of the trio that would kill WOW subs in 2011 - people in this same thread still talk about TOR and how it will be gigantic.
"making a WOW clone is a poor business decision". Period.
And the "next one" just like the last one will confirm the theory ... or do you really think that putting cartoon avatars in a space suit to kill boars with voice overs will be the exception to the rule?
Yes we do go over this again and again, but we are players in an industry that never learns. Name one change that was made to FFIV from its predecessor that did not make it more WoW like? My understanding is that the game is quite true to the old FF, but you can solo more easily. What did they do to move the MMO platform for gaming forward or the genre of fantasy MMO’s forward? And it’s not just FFIV of course. MMO’s are being produced like new brands of toilet cleaner, they all do the same job.
STOR has had a load of cash thrown at it but that guarantees nothing. GW2 sounds quite innovative, but let us wait till launch before we praise the revolution. MMO’s are stuck in a rut which makes our threads stuck in a rut too.
However, you also have to consider that RoM's revenue per player is probably much less than WoW's.
And how does this matter?
When i go to the grocery shop in my neighboorhood i pay with money, not with money per player... when i feed my kid i feed it with food, not with food per player.
"MMO server costs" is maybe the most sucesful myth in the marketing world ever. Team Fortress has servers too but you don't pay a subscription you know...
ps: Please find something original to post, don't *clone* the old threads.
"Traditionally, massively multiplier online games have been about three basic gameplay pillars combat, exploration and character progression. In Alganon, in addition to these we've added the fourth pillar to the equation: Copy & Paste."
Comments
WoW took the best parts of other MMOs and improved on them. Hell it even got the bad parts and made them more fun, or at least less mind numbing. The next MMO should do the same. Improve on the best part of CURRENT mmo's and improve on the bad ones.
So no ... not a WoW clone, but maybe WoW's bigger, badder, better sibling. As for the other WoW clones that failed ... they failed because they actually failed to copy WoW or even improve on it. WAR had horrible animations, horrible crafting, bad class design .. hell it was just a horrible all around design. It may be considered a WoW clone because of its similarities ... but in truth, its not a WoW clone.
Aion? May some consider it a clone because it copied the UI ... I guess ... maybe the smooth gameplay. But what is wrong with Aion? Force PvP? Frustrating grind and punishment design with both leveling and even crafting? Dull, unrewarding instances? Did WoW have any of that? Not really, and definitely not as bad as Aion.
LotRO? Very similar to WoW maybe ... i know for sure it was called a WoW clone at one time. But why did it fall behind? This PvPMP? Slow combat? Some stupid end game requirement of so that your character wont be cowering in fear the whole time? Horrible gear design? Is that WoW to you? No ... its what they did different. And that failed them.
The devs are on the right track (well ... most are). Take WoW's design and improve on it. They just need to do it right, and do it better. Maybe even make it **gasp** fun!
Themeparks will sell everytime. Provided they are done right. Even when done badly, they still get box sales to help recoup production cost....although when you go the shallow route of champions/STO, Craptic probably broke even/profited on box sales alone.
Themeparks get ripped when they differ from WoW. WoW gave the folks content & polish, something that is still lacking from the games that came after. Go read the FF 14 brds to get the latest story.
Folks keep dogging TOR, but barring some zaniness, it should sell like hot-cakes.
You take a gaming world, you throw in a bunch of polish & content, and you are going to do alright. LoTRO was hot at launch, as it had the polish. I would hazard to guess they didnt give enough content, and folks grew tired of it. The lack of consenting PVP probably didnt help matters either.
IMO it isnt a question of themepark vs sandbox. Rather it is more of a "how to do the themepark right" issue. You put up a half arse effort ala STO, then your game burns. Square should of seen this, and held off launch until game was ready. With AoC, WAR, and STO...there was plenty of examples out there.
Side note: AoC and WAR are a different animal as they were supposed to be PVP focused. If you allow the mechanics to force PVP on folks not wishing to partake, then it only takes one arse-munch to cost a game subs. I dont think you should ever force PVP on folks, as some people have no interest in it.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Has it really been twenty minutes? Seems like every 20 minutes one of these threads pop up
Not to say I think that WoW didnt ruin the genre, but seriously guys. This conversation has happened a million times. Shut the fuck up already.
I don't think anyone goes into game development with the intentions of being a "wow clone" and have seen enough games that try to be different fail to say devs should develop with they are comfortable with but make sure they are honest about what is and isn't in the game then the community needs to get over games that don't appeal to their gameplay styles.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
It's completely okay to clone a successful product....just make it better. Hmmm what happened to myspace?...Oh yeah facebook made a better myspace and took most of their customers.
What exactly is a WOW clone? Streamlined UI? Little to no bugs? Decent customer service? Smooth gameplay? Fantasy setting?
Really? You should be an economist.
Perhaps it should pop up every 2 minutes then. Because people over here simply don't understand the theory.
Because even now - after the latest FF14 debacle and part of the trio that would kill WOW subs in 2011 - people in this same thread still talk about TOR and how it will be gigantic.
"making a WOW clone is a poor business decision". Period.
And the "next one" just like the last one will confirm the theory ... or do you really think that putting cartoon avatars in a space suit to kill boars with voice overs will be the exception to the rule?
Of course not.
MMOs are an art form.
That means, any business decision is a bad decision.
Its like with, say, movies. If you want to get the players, you need to impress them.
Yes we do go over this again and again, but we are players in an industry that never learns. Name one change that was made to FFIV from its predecessor that did not make it more WoW like? My understanding is that the game is quite true to the old FF, but you can solo more easily. What did they do to move the MMO platform for gaming forward or the genre of fantasy MMO’s forward? And it’s not just FFIV of course. MMO’s are being produced like new brands of toilet cleaner, they all do the same job.
STOR has had a load of cash thrown at it but that guarantees nothing. GW2 sounds quite innovative, but let us wait till launch before we praise the revolution. MMO’s are stuck in a rut which makes our threads stuck in a rut too.
And how does this matter?
When i go to the grocery shop in my neighboorhood i pay with money, not with money per player... when i feed my kid i feed it with food, not with food per player.
"MMO server costs" is maybe the most sucesful myth in the marketing world ever. Team Fortress has servers too but you don't pay a subscription you know...
ps: Please find something original to post, don't *clone* the old threads.
"Traditionally, massively multiplier online games have been about three basic gameplay pillars combat, exploration and character progression. In Alganon, in addition to these we've added the fourth pillar to the equation: Copy & Paste."