Instead of trying to generate a healer class which is more active and appeals to more players they took the easy way out ... etc etc
Um, no. I love the healing class but it is not "more active and appeals to more players" than any other class. This is just so wrong on so many levels.
I think you misunderstood. He was saying that they didn't try to make an interesting healing class. Instead, they removed healing classes.
Hmm, I guess if you read it that way, I read it another way. But yes, going by that, I can understand his statement a bit more.
Addressing that then: The reason they didn't is not because of changing the gameplay mechanics of the healing class it's removing the typical tank/dps/healer set up. They are changing the MMO standard as we know it. Something many people want and complain about when they don't get something different than WoW.
(TY Colddog)
Veritas Vos Liberabit- The truth will set you free.
Instead of trying to generate a healer class which is more active and appeals to more players they took the easy way out and just eliminated the whole class lol i only hope they dont do that with all parts they cant figure out how to make better/right....would be an kinda empty game in the end and that would suck since i do have a lil bit hope this game could be decent.
Reason why healers (and tanks to some extent) were removed is because strict adherence to "holy trinity" system simply doesn't mesh well when you throw dynamic events acting as base to your game into the equation (you don't want people waiting around bored, unable to finish DEs because there aren't any tanks/healers around). WAR also proved this to an extent with it's PQs and I have a feeling it was a major example to ANet on how not to do certain things. I've realized I've already posted this exact same thing in this thread only worded differently. You cannot MAKE a certain class artifically appealing to people.
Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing.
Instead of trying to generate a healer class which is more active and appeals to more players they took the easy way out ... etc etc
Um, no. I love the healing class but it is not "more active and appeals to more players" than any other class. This is just so wrong on so many levels.
Guess u did misunderstand what i said.....dont understand how u got that out of what i said tho but ok lol
A lot of ppls said that there were just not enough healers therefore u were forced to wait long time for one . Now instead of changing the problem and change the healer class so that more ppls would find it appealing and play one, they just got rid of the whole class which i think is a lame move
Really cant see how my opinion was wrong in so many lvls tho....
Yeah I misread it I guess, so sorry, but it still is wrong on some parts.
I already addressed this in the above post just ignore my first lol :P
Veritas Vos Liberabit- The truth will set you free.
Instead of trying to generate a healer class which is more active and appeals to more players they took the easy way out ... etc etc
Um, no. I love the healing class but it is not "more active and appeals to more players" than any other class. This is just so wrong on so many levels.
I think you misunderstood. He was saying that they didn't try to make an interesting healing class. Instead, they removed healing classes.
Hmm, I guess if you read it that way, I read it another way. But yes, going by that, I can understand his statement a bit more.
Addressing that then: The reason they didn't is not because of changing the gameplay mechanics of the healing class it's removing the typical tank/dps/healer set up. They are changing the MMO standard as we know it. Something many people want and complain about when they don't get something different than WoW.
(TY Colddog)
Yeah i know this standard they try to generate we call in Sockwars for pen and paper games.
Just allow everyone to do everything so its way easyer its fun for a while but in the end we always came bk to the real game after we went a bit nuts with the easymode.
Who says GW2 will not have a support class. It is highly speculated on the guru forums that the 2nd soldier class will be a meele class with protection spells.
Who says GW2 will not have a support class. It is highly speculated on the guru forums that the 2nd soldier class will be a meele class with protection spells.
I speculate just as much. I am sure there will be one "support" class. Other than the tank of course. A class that is a plus but still not need as much as a dedicated healer in the end.
Veritas Vos Liberabit- The truth will set you free.
LOL and people scream that Blizzard is dumbing down MMORPG's. You may not like the Holy Trinity....but it is the recipe that most old school pen and paper game dungeon crawls were based on and even more. This ideal that now each class is a healer unto themselves - yeah...that is making games more complicated - not!
LOL and people scream that Blizzard is dumbing down MMORPG's. You may not like the Holy Trinity....but it is the recipe that most old school pen and paper game dungeon crawls were bases on and even more. This ideal that now each class is a healer unto themselves - yeah...that is making games more complicated - not!
Well considering no one class is a full time healer and that each class contributes to the group survival in one way or another. Working as a team is far more difficult than letting one person worry about heals and everyone else just do w/e.
So I would say yes, complicated.
Veritas Vos Liberabit- The truth will set you free.
LOL and people scream that Blizzard is dumbing down MMORPG's. You may not like the Holy Trinity....but it is the recipe that most old school pen and paper game dungeon crawls were bases on and even more. This ideal that now each class is a healer unto themselves - yeah...that is making games more complicated - not!
Well considering no one class is a full time healer and that each class contributes to the group survival in one way or another. Working as a team is far more difficult than letting one person worry about heals and everyone else just do w/e.
So I would say yes, complicated.
So having a team with tank healer dps debuffer etc is not considered working as a team anymore?
If all classes can tank and heal it does sound dull and way easyer than having to focus on hate control who cares that the mobs attack just everyone we all r healing tanks let it come....its way too early to Judge the system of course but so far i cant imagine it being more difficult than actual real team play i could be wrong of course and if so i would be delighted but as for now it really just sounds like an Ultra light version of an Group based game
LOL and people scream that Blizzard is dumbing down MMORPG's. You may not like the Holy Trinity....but it is the recipe that most old school pen and paper game dungeon crawls were bases on and even more. This ideal that now each class is a healer unto themselves - yeah...that is making games more complicated - not!
Well considering no one class is a full time healer and that each class contributes to the group survival in one way or another. Working as a team is far more difficult than letting one person worry about heals and everyone else just do w/e.
So I would say yes, complicated.
So having a team with tank healer dps debuffer etc is not considered working as a team anymore?
If all classes can tank and heal it does sound dull and way easyer than having to focus on hate control who cares that the mobs attack just everyone we all r healing tanks let it come....its way too early to Judge the system of course but so far i cant imagine it being more difficult than actual real team play i could be wrong of course and if so i would be delighted but as for now it really just sounds like an Ultra light version of an Group based game
From what I know of the mechanics so far it all the classes don't "heal." You will have say tanks contributing with reduce dmg buffs, rangers will add like additional range dmg, and heals from dmg, necros will add lifelink, etc.
Thats how it will work, not so much "hey i'm healing you". And when everyone is dedicated is really isn't difficult because you worry about one thing and one thing only. Doing your job; in this however, you have to pay attention to everything and everyone not just your single job.
Veritas Vos Liberabit- The truth will set you free.
LOL and people scream that Blizzard is dumbing down MMORPG's. You may not like the Holy Trinity....but it is the recipe that most old school pen and paper game dungeon crawls were bases on and even more. This ideal that now each class is a healer unto themselves - yeah...that is making games more complicated - not!
Well considering no one class is a full time healer and that each class contributes to the group survival in one way or another. Working as a team is far more difficult than letting one person worry about heals and everyone else just do w/e.
So I would say yes, complicated.
People are whining, bitching and moaning that MMORPG's are becoming less social and dumbed down and totally soloable play - Look at SW-ToR - BioWare says you can solo their game from begining to end. Now comes GW2- they do not even have dedicated healers! A player can do it all! Dish damage, heal and even ress fallen comrades! Then again who needs comrades when you are a damage dealing - healer - that can also probably pick locks, and summon demons!~ We don't need no stinking companions.....
Seriously...want to talk about dumbing games down....and you people blame Blizzard.
LOL and people scream that Blizzard is dumbing down MMORPG's. You may not like the Holy Trinity....but it is the recipe that most old school pen and paper game dungeon crawls were bases on and even more. This ideal that now each class is a healer unto themselves - yeah...that is making games more complicated - not!
Well considering no one class is a full time healer and that each class contributes to the group survival in one way or another. Working as a team is far more difficult than letting one person worry about heals and everyone else just do w/e.
So I would say yes, complicated.
People are whining, bitching and moaning that MMORPg's are becoming less social and dumbed down and totally soloable play - Look at SW-ToR - BioWare says you can solo their game from begining to end. Now comes GW2- they do not even have dedicated heealers! A player can do it all! Dish damage, heal and even ress fallen comrades! Then again who needs comrades when you are a damage dealing - healer - that can also probably pick locks, and summon demons!~ We don't need no stinking companions.....
Seriously...want to talk about dumbing games down....and you people blame Blizzard.
Heh, I think I agree with your point of view in many ways.
LOL and people scream that Blizzard is dumbing down MMORPG's. You may not like the Holy Trinity....but it is the recipe that most old school pen and paper game dungeon crawls were bases on and even more. This ideal that now each class is a healer unto themselves - yeah...that is making games more complicated - not!
Well considering no one class is a full time healer and that each class contributes to the group survival in one way or another. Working as a team is far more difficult than letting one person worry about heals and everyone else just do w/e.
So I would say yes, complicated.
So having a team with tank healer dps debuffer etc is not considered working as a team anymore?
If all classes can tank and heal it does sound dull and way easyer than having to focus on hate control who cares that the mobs attack just everyone we all r healing tanks let it come....its way too early to Judge the system of course but so far i cant imagine it being more difficult than actual real team play i could be wrong of course and if so i would be delighted but as for now it really just sounds like an Ultra light version of an Group based game
From what I know of the mechanics so far it all the classes don't "heal." You will have say tanks contributing with reduce dmg buffs, rangers will add like additional range dmg, and heals from dmg, necros will add lifelink, etc.
Thats how it will work, not so much "hey i'm healing you". And when everyone is dedicated is really isn't difficult because you worry about one thing and one thing only. Doing your job; in this however, you have to pay attention to everything and everyone not just your single job.
As someone that plays a Holy Specced Priest in WoW...my job is to do more than heal. I help keep characters from making stupid mistakes and I also can do some serious DPS. Just recently in the Halls of Reflection my group lost all but two of us...the tank and me(the healer). I was not only healing the tank - but DPS'ing and doing CC ! So - where is the healer not doing more than healing in this situation? I was doing it all!
As someone that plays a Holy Specced Priest in WoW...my job is to do more than heal. I help keep characters from making stupid mistakes and I also can do some serious DPS. Just recently in the Halls of Reflection my group lost all but two of us...the tank and me(the healer). I was not only healing the tank - but DPS'ing and doing CC ! So - where is the healer not doing more than healing in this situation? I was doing it all!
And wasn't it more fun to be able to utilise more skills, to do it all, rather than just sit back and keep health bars full?
Holy trinity only works when your mobs are retarded. People who keep saying that not using the holy trinity will result in easy mode are still thinking that the mob AI will remain as it has been in almost every mmo. Mob AI wasnt this stupid in GW1 for those of you who didnt bother with it. There was no taunting and the mobs would attack together in formations and go for your weakest person in range, not the strongest. They would run out of aoe's and they would try to run off to get more backup. It was more how you would expect a person to react. Did people use the trinity in GW1, yes. Did they have to, no. The idea is to make pve more like pvp. How many mmo's do you see tanks dominating in pvp? Not many in my experience.
Now with dedicated healers, what happens when your tank goes down in most mmo's? Usually its a struggle while you have to hopefully have an off tank step up(assuming you have one), your ccer's cc more than they may already be, and your dpser's scatter around trying to not be attacked next while the off tank tries to get aggro, which usually takes a bit. The healer has to keep everyone up, often while being beaten on, and rez the tank back up. Now these situations are usually pretty exciting for the group and it sometimes results in a wipe and other times everyone pulls through. Now imagine this was the case in every fight with there being no tank or off tank. Still think this will be easy mode? Ok now imagine if the mob(s) werent retards simply reacting to aggro. What if they had a similar AI to what i described from GW1. How exciting will it be when every encounter will involve mobs picking off all your weakest group members. Still want to be the only healer in the group in those situations?
The point wasnt that they are getting rid of healers, just dedicated healers that the whole group will expect to rely on. everyone will be expected to pull some of the weight when it comes to healing.
I love healing to bits and I play a healer in every single MMO but one - Guild Wars. They actually managed to make dps class fun and I never actually played a monk/rit in that game. Well, I did play a rit but he wasn't a pure healer. So I am definitely gonna enjoy playing a necro in GW2 but I am sure there will be a suppport class to appease us :P
I was a huge fan of the original GW. I loved the variety in classes and the different pvp combat systems as well as the pve missions. When I started reading about GW 2 I became very interested and very excited since I haven't found a new MMO I have enjoyed in quite a while, but my issue is......... Why no healing class???
I am so thrown back as to why they would want to alienate a class that a lot of people love playing.
I was just completely dissapointed because healing classes are the only classes I really enjoy playing and have no interest in playing a game with no healing class.
How do all you other healers feel?
I am more of a support class player than a straight out healer but I am concerned indeed. Because I am wondering why do they not want a straight healer? Is it because they think that all players just want to do uber-dmg and kill stuff?
If so then they will most likely scrap the support class type as well and I will have no reason to play this game.
Here's the simplest way to think of it... look at every single tank/healer/dps style of fight out there, with WoW being a glaring example. Every fight, every freakin' one, is scripted. You do this. You do that. You avoid this. Static. Every time, same thing if you're successful.
Here's the simplest way to think of it... look at every single tank/healer/dps style of fight out there, with WoW being a glaring example. Every fight, every freakin' one, is scripted. You do this. You do that. You avoid this. Static. Every time, same thing if you're successful.
GW2... they threw the script away.
YEah..why do you need a script when you do it all yourself. No need for other participants.
I was a huge fan of the original GW. I loved the variety in classes and the different pvp combat systems as well as the pve missions. When I started reading about GW 2 I became very interested and very excited since I haven't found a new MMO I have enjoyed in quite a while, but my issue is......... Why no healing class???
I am so thrown back as to why they would want to alienate a class that a lot of people love playing.
I was just completely dissapointed because healing classes are the only classes I really enjoy playing and have no interest in playing a game with no healing class.
How do all you other healers feel?
I once upon a time, enjoyed very much playing a healer. One of my mains in GW was a heal/protect monk. Still, more recently I've been really enjoying some games with much more hybrid classes* and doing a combo of healing and DPS or control. I'd have to say my favorite 'healer' more recenlty was in CoH, a 'kinetic' which was actually a master of buffs/debuffs and had one good but situational heal. I really rolled the toon to be a healer, but by end game, people really wanted you for buffs.
So...
I don't know. I think the devil is in the details. I think being able to make a character that is a 'support' class, that is wanted on a team, will make healer brains happy.
*not that you CAN'T be hybridized in GW, but lots of times people didn't want you to be.
"Never met a pack of humans that were any different. Look at the idiots that get elected every couple of years. You really consider those guys more mature than us? The only difference between us and them is, when they gank some noobs and take their stuff, the noobs actually die." - Madimorga
Here's the simplest way to think of it... look at every single tank/healer/dps style of fight out there, with WoW being a glaring example. Every fight, every freakin' one, is scripted. You do this. You do that. You avoid this. Static. Every time, same thing if you're successful.
GW2... they threw the script away.
YEah..why do you need a script when you do it all yourself. No need for other participants.
Except you do need them, because you are not a dedicated healer. You can't mitigate all the incoming damage by yourself. You can't avoid getting stunned/knocked back/CC'd all by your lonesome because your class does not have it all. You are a jack of some trades but master of none. You NEED other people to fill in the gaps.
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Hmm, I guess if you read it that way, I read it another way. But yes, going by that, I can understand his statement a bit more.
Addressing that then: The reason they didn't is not because of changing the gameplay mechanics of the healing class it's removing the typical tank/dps/healer set up. They are changing the MMO standard as we know it. Something many people want and complain about when they don't get something different than WoW.
(TY Colddog)
Veritas Vos Liberabit- The truth will set you free.
Reason why healers (and tanks to some extent) were removed is because strict adherence to "holy trinity" system simply doesn't mesh well when you throw dynamic events acting as base to your game into the equation (you don't want people waiting around bored, unable to finish DEs because there aren't any tanks/healers around). WAR also proved this to an extent with it's PQs and I have a feeling it was a major example to ANet on how not to do certain things. I've realized I've already posted this exact same thing in this thread only worded differently. You cannot MAKE a certain class artifically appealing to people.
Yeah I misread it I guess, so sorry, but it still is wrong on some parts.
I already addressed this in the above post just ignore my first lol :P
Veritas Vos Liberabit- The truth will set you free.
Yeah i know this standard they try to generate we call in Sockwars for pen and paper games.
Just allow everyone to do everything so its way easyer its fun for a while but in the end we always came bk to the real game after we went a bit nuts with the easymode.
Who says GW2 will not have a support class. It is highly speculated on the guru forums that the 2nd soldier class will be a meele class with protection spells.
I speculate just as much. I am sure there will be one "support" class. Other than the tank of course. A class that is a plus but still not need as much as a dedicated healer in the end.
Veritas Vos Liberabit- The truth will set you free.
LOL and people scream that Blizzard is dumbing down MMORPG's. You may not like the Holy Trinity....but it is the recipe that most old school pen and paper game dungeon crawls were based on and even more. This ideal that now each class is a healer unto themselves - yeah...that is making games more complicated - not!
Well considering no one class is a full time healer and that each class contributes to the group survival in one way or another. Working as a team is far more difficult than letting one person worry about heals and everyone else just do w/e.
So I would say yes, complicated.
Veritas Vos Liberabit- The truth will set you free.
So having a team with tank healer dps debuffer etc is not considered working as a team anymore?
If all classes can tank and heal it does sound dull and way easyer than having to focus on hate control who cares that the mobs attack just everyone we all r healing tanks let it come....its way too early to Judge the system of course but so far i cant imagine it being more difficult than actual real team play i could be wrong of course and if so i would be delighted but as for now it really just sounds like an Ultra light version of an Group based game
Amazing how a lot of people are stuck on the holy trinity and can't conceive of another way.
From what I know of the mechanics so far it all the classes don't "heal." You will have say tanks contributing with reduce dmg buffs, rangers will add like additional range dmg, and heals from dmg, necros will add lifelink, etc.
Thats how it will work, not so much "hey i'm healing you". And when everyone is dedicated is really isn't difficult because you worry about one thing and one thing only. Doing your job; in this however, you have to pay attention to everything and everyone not just your single job.
Veritas Vos Liberabit- The truth will set you free.
People are whining, bitching and moaning that MMORPG's are becoming less social and dumbed down and totally soloable play - Look at SW-ToR - BioWare says you can solo their game from begining to end. Now comes GW2- they do not even have dedicated healers! A player can do it all! Dish damage, heal and even ress fallen comrades! Then again who needs comrades when you are a damage dealing - healer - that can also probably pick locks, and summon demons!~ We don't need no stinking companions.....
Seriously...want to talk about dumbing games down....and you people blame Blizzard.
Heh, I think I agree with your point of view in many ways.
As someone that plays a Holy Specced Priest in WoW...my job is to do more than heal. I help keep characters from making stupid mistakes and I also can do some serious DPS. Just recently in the Halls of Reflection my group lost all but two of us...the tank and me(the healer). I was not only healing the tank - but DPS'ing and doing CC ! So - where is the healer not doing more than healing in this situation? I was doing it all!
And wasn't it more fun to be able to utilise more skills, to do it all, rather than just sit back and keep health bars full?
Holy trinity only works when your mobs are retarded. People who keep saying that not using the holy trinity will result in easy mode are still thinking that the mob AI will remain as it has been in almost every mmo. Mob AI wasnt this stupid in GW1 for those of you who didnt bother with it. There was no taunting and the mobs would attack together in formations and go for your weakest person in range, not the strongest. They would run out of aoe's and they would try to run off to get more backup. It was more how you would expect a person to react. Did people use the trinity in GW1, yes. Did they have to, no. The idea is to make pve more like pvp. How many mmo's do you see tanks dominating in pvp? Not many in my experience.
Now with dedicated healers, what happens when your tank goes down in most mmo's? Usually its a struggle while you have to hopefully have an off tank step up(assuming you have one), your ccer's cc more than they may already be, and your dpser's scatter around trying to not be attacked next while the off tank tries to get aggro, which usually takes a bit. The healer has to keep everyone up, often while being beaten on, and rez the tank back up. Now these situations are usually pretty exciting for the group and it sometimes results in a wipe and other times everyone pulls through. Now imagine this was the case in every fight with there being no tank or off tank. Still think this will be easy mode? Ok now imagine if the mob(s) werent retards simply reacting to aggro. What if they had a similar AI to what i described from GW1. How exciting will it be when every encounter will involve mobs picking off all your weakest group members. Still want to be the only healer in the group in those situations?
The point wasnt that they are getting rid of healers, just dedicated healers that the whole group will expect to rely on. everyone will be expected to pull some of the weight when it comes to healing.
I love healing to bits and I play a healer in every single MMO but one - Guild Wars. They actually managed to make dps class fun and I never actually played a monk/rit in that game. Well, I did play a rit but he wasn't a pure healer. So I am definitely gonna enjoy playing a necro in GW2 but I am sure there will be a suppport class to appease us :P
I am more of a support class player than a straight out healer but I am concerned indeed. Because I am wondering why do they not want a straight healer? Is it because they think that all players just want to do uber-dmg and kill stuff?
If so then they will most likely scrap the support class type as well and I will have no reason to play this game.
Time will tell I guess...
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So every class becomes a jack of all trades. I would think that a healing class would be "better" and more "efficient" at healing.
Is this yet another example of the homoginization of role-playing in mmorpgs?
That's what it looks like to me. Hopefully they allow you to focus on healing if you choose to do so.
I'm sure they'll allow you to focus on damage if you choose to do so. I smell some hipocracy.
Here's the simplest way to think of it... look at every single tank/healer/dps style of fight out there, with WoW being a glaring example. Every fight, every freakin' one, is scripted. You do this. You do that. You avoid this. Static. Every time, same thing if you're successful.
GW2... they threw the script away.
Oderint, dum metuant.
YEah..why do you need a script when you do it all yourself. No need for other participants.
I once upon a time, enjoyed very much playing a healer. One of my mains in GW was a heal/protect monk. Still, more recently I've been really enjoying some games with much more hybrid classes* and doing a combo of healing and DPS or control. I'd have to say my favorite 'healer' more recenlty was in CoH, a 'kinetic' which was actually a master of buffs/debuffs and had one good but situational heal. I really rolled the toon to be a healer, but by end game, people really wanted you for buffs.
So...
I don't know. I think the devil is in the details. I think being able to make a character that is a 'support' class, that is wanted on a team, will make healer brains happy.
*not that you CAN'T be hybridized in GW, but lots of times people didn't want you to be.
"Never met a pack of humans that were any different. Look at the idiots that get elected every couple of years. You really consider those guys more mature than us? The only difference between us and them is, when they gank some noobs and take their stuff, the noobs actually die." - Madimorga
Except you do need them, because you are not a dedicated healer. You can't mitigate all the incoming damage by yourself. You can't avoid getting stunned/knocked back/CC'd all by your lonesome because your class does not have it all. You are a jack of some trades but master of none. You NEED other people to fill in the gaps.
Simple. Next question? =p