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I prefer my combat to be simplistic in MMORPGs.
Rockgod99
Member Posts: 4,640
I've been playing these games for a very long time and one of the main reasons I do is because they relax me.
I enjoy every aspect of these games even the slow, tab target, action bar combat.
Honestly mmorpg isnt the only genre of video game I enjoy so if i want a fast paced Fps, a Rts or some combo string centric combat system I will dip into those genres to get my fix.
I find that the more technical the combat system within this genre the more in the way and annoying the system becomes.
I'm not playing my MMO so it could be a action adventure slasher or freaking Hexan.
I like the way it is, its enjoyable and it doesn't get in the way. I can't imagine what it would be like if i had to worry about Advanced Ai, cover systems, super human like fps relexes and micro on the level of starcraft.
These systems would just get in the way...
Comments
Ok. Then you should play games that support what you like. I don't have any suggestions.
I like the FPS targeting shooting systems. The button mashing (like WoW) is ok, but it doesn't feel as much like combat, it feels more like a puzzle. The system from Global Agenda (FPS + a little button mashing) seems to be more fun (to me).
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Well each to his/her own. Honestly it isn't just a "FPS" thing that I like in MMOs, but I also want skills to actually mean something.
For example... In WoW, a level 30 mage. What do you see them casting? Fireball.. Fireball.. Fireball.. Or, maybe Frostbolt? Every now and then they will use a different skill, maybe frost nova or something. I forget which skills you get at what levels, but still. Everyone feels the same, everyone uses the same skills, everyone gets the same thing, nobody feels unique.
The only uniqueness in these games is eventually you use certain skill based on your build (Pretty much the same in most traditional MMOs as it is in WoW.) Which just switches a couple skills around that everyone of your class already has, it just makes it slightly more powerful.
Guild Wars has the same "simplistic" way of fighting, but the skills themselves are so different and have such diverse ranges that the possibilities are endless if you are making your own build, and chances are, if you run into someone of the same class as you, no 2 will be the same.
So thats kind of the "simplisticness" that I don't like. But the target and click your skills isnt always a bad way of playing but its been done to death and mmos have gotten really lazy with the customization and the skills themselves.
Im speaking more of the mechanics. I prefer the whole tab targetting, action bar type deal. With that said im all for character ability/spell diversity. I think the way mmos do things now could be greatly improved without removing the Tab target/action bar mechanic.
Imo we dont need to turn mmos into Halo, God of war, Diablo or Starcraft. I would like to see our combat systems evolve.
Games that have shown some evolution have been Guild wars with skill diversity, Ryzom with their stanza system and DDO. I would like to see these types of systems truly evolve not just be dropped for combat systems that i've already experienced in other genres.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
You don't seem to be talking so much about simplicity, but more about something that requires little thought/effort/skill.
Certain types of mmo's are indeed suited to slower paced, tab targeted combat mechanics which require little to no actual thought or skill to play. Others however should (and do) require either aiming/twitch skills or at least some tactical thought.
That you are not playing an mmo for the combat is great for you, for others that is simply not the case, to each his own I guess.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
This is one of the biggest reasons that I do not enjoy endgame. They make the encounters difficult just for the sake of being difficult. Instead of having reasons why the monsters have all these fancy abilities, to me it feels more like they are just making players jump through hoops. The more people complain the content is too easy, the more hoops they add. /yawn
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Ever tank before? Have a healer pull aggro with a big heal right at the pull? then have to run around like a crazy person collecting all the mobs? ever have Dps split targets? ever need to actually pull a challenging dungeon or raid?
My role not only requires research and pre-planning but skill in which reflexes and multi class knowledge is paramount in doing my job to the best of my ability.
Just because i dont have to manually aim at a mob or player doesnt mean this type of combat is skillless.
I'll even go one step farther it takes more skill to tank a dungeon in themepark games than it does to play all of darkfall...
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
I think there is room for both casual and more intense gameplay in MMOs. Appealing to BOTH styles of gameplay enlarges your base.
Quite the contrary. Holding down the left mouse button doesn't exactly take "skill".
And I'm a huge FPS fanatic...FPS are faster PACED and much more adrenaline infused - MMOs are more casual combat, but much more skill than say CoD:MW2.
I agree OP. I want auto targetting and a skill bar. I don't mind adding some positional advantage and situational awareness..i.e. dodging when a mob gives a tell. But I really don't want to have to manually target. I often play MMOs while watching TV and like the slow, easy pace. If I want more action, or immersion, I will play Fallout, Red Dead, Dragon Age, or any of 2 dozen games I never seem to finish. I don't need more action in my MMO comabt.
Ever try a 10 + mob blind (line of sight) pull in a dungeon and have all CC fail and have all Dps spread across multiple targets while the healer, casters are getting beat on? if that isnt fast paced or makes your heart beat out of your chest nothing will.
There's a reason many people hate playing Important or demanding roles in mmorpgs. Because they require practice and skill to do well.
I wouldnt call that casual man.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
I believe that an MMO combat system should be as complex as it can be. I enjoy playing Baldur's Gate 2 because a room of enemies can be handled with a multitude of different spells, character design can flow a hundred different ways, so that room will never be the same two play throughs. I also enjoy the simplcity of Mirror's Edge, a system that is made perfectly for the game in question. My favourite merge of the two is Mass Effect 2, its system is wonderful.
In Age of Conan I find the directional attacks to be pointless. I hit an ability, then follow it up with a directional attack, its just not required really, then they add in another two later on in the level grind, more complexity but the gameplay is no better for it.
My personal idea for a combat system when concerning melee would be something like Devil May Cry in a dumbed down fashion. Soft Lock, select a stance, have a siimple combo system bound into the mouse, speed and timing of clicks delivering different combos, throw a block in there as well, hits calculated based on hit detection and no dice rolls.
Ranged would be similar to Darkfall, when your draw it goes into first person and gravit effects shots, archery would lack any real special attacks but would enjoy greater strength, no stupid snare shots, just simple all out power.
Magic usually ends up being the most messed up, a hundred different spells, always snares and roots and status effects and more, I wold rather take control of the elements fire earth water and wind.
You start a thread taling about 'simplicity' in mmos and then going onto mention how in essence you prefer the simplicity of tab targetting over fps combat and now you are arguing against that? Make up your mind...
Initially I questioned your use of the term 'simplicity', as for the life of me I can't see what is exactly 'complex' about an fps style aiming system. No doubt it takes far more skill than tab targetting (and you are deluding yourself by thinking otherwise) but pointing and shooting is not 'complex'.
As for your questions about tanking, well yes I have done that before and no I've not had to deal with crap healers and dps because I only ever ran/run in guild groups/premades and not pugs full of numpties.
As for your comment on DF, er ok if you think that thats your opinion. If you feel autolock and tab targetting whilst rotating specials/abilities is harder then manual aiming/fps dodging whilst still rotating specials and the like then fair play to you. Most however would disagree.
Frankly it's beyond me as to why you would make a thread saying you like simple combat mechanics and then come out proclaiming that they are infact harder then the ones you initially considered more 'complex'.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
True mmorpg combat, the systems that started this genre are simplistic.
When i say simplistic i mean control method not challenge of content and roles within a game.
I found your post to be insulting, as if im a lesser person for enjoying combat that started this genre.
Also i disagree with others that believe due to the aiming mechanic FPS is some how for hardcore players while true mmorpg combat is for skilless casuals.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
The interface for combat does not need to be inherently complex. Action bars and tab targeting are fine. It could certainly be improved upon, such as making physical attacks mimic spells less. But adding FPS targeting? I want to be thinking about which attack to use and when to use it, and not be limited by my ability to aim. I'm not an FPS player. I'm an RPG player. If I wanted to play a shooting game, I would do that. Hitting my enemy is about THAC0, not mouse twitching.
Action bars are a simple place to start, but complex combos and reactionary abilities can make combat much more complicated. Juggling half a dozen dots with different durations isn't particularly simple. It can get boring after several hundred fights, but that falls upon the design of an encounter to keep things varied.
MMO combat generally tries to be as close to Dungeons and Dragons as possible, where hitting was determined by die rolls. That's part of the core of the RPG genre.
Important facts:
1. Free to Play games are poorly made.
2. Casuals are not all idiots, but idiots call themselves casuals.
3. Great solo and group content are not mutually exclusive, but they suffer when one is shoved into the mold of the other. The same is true of PvP and PvE.
4. Community is more important than you think.
How is fps control method complex? Again I think you are using the wrong term.
I'm sorry you found my post insulting that certainly wasn't the intention, but i'm not entirely sure how pointing out that tab targetting mechanics require little to no skill is making you out personally to be a lesser person. Remember I am talking about the mechanics being a faceroll fest, not whatever class set up you are playing. Which is why the whole tank thing was pointless.
Aiming is more 'hardcore' than having auto lock and tab targetting, how can it not be? Keep in mind you are talking about the basic mechanics here, having to aim at something is clearly more of a challenge than simplying pressing tab.
Again this all seems a little pointless really, I said in my original post that it's down to the individual which one they want. You stated you prefer more casual/simplistic mechanics which is great, I personally dont.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Call it what you want, my point is still valid.
Try going AFK in a FPS.
PACE is faster in FPS's because there is no "down time" - skill and strategy are much more prevalent in MMOs.
Let me ask you this. If I need one hand on the mouse to aim, and the other hand to move my character around, how then am I to be choosing complex ability rotations, situational abilities, or combos? If, the other hand, I have a target lock, then I can use one hand to move, and the other to choose abilities. It's not "harder" to play FPS style. It's just a different sort of game. And action bars are truer to the vision of RPGs.
Imagine being a wizard type and having to choose which element to cast on an enemy with shifting immunities? It's also throwing spears at me. I can either move, aim, or switch between five different spells quickly. That takes three hands and I only have two. Cutting movement... we can all agree that's a lousy choice. Cutting the spell choices? Suddenly the main mechanic of the fight is gone, and the game resembles Modern Warfare more than an RPG. That only leaves manual aiming. It's not really an element of the RPG genre, and especially not in video games.
Consider a game like Diablo. You can't move while you're attacking. It has a third person manual targeting system, and you choose abilities... but you can't dodge. You cannot move and attack at the same time. You have to give up one of those elements. I don't really want my MMOs to look like Diablo. I like something more resembling Dragon Quest.
Important facts:
1. Free to Play games are poorly made.
2. Casuals are not all idiots, but idiots call themselves casuals.
3. Great solo and group content are not mutually exclusive, but they suffer when one is shoved into the mold of the other. The same is true of PvP and PvE.
4. Community is more important than you think.
Er hotkeys/macros perhaps?
If someone can't access all their abilities whilst moving and aiming then I'd have to conclude that they haven't optimized their keyboard/mouse to it's fullest potential. Or they haven't tried a game that combines fps aiming with mmorpg abilities and are simply concluding that it is impossible.
Regardless i'm not going to get drawn into yet another debate on the subject, some people prefer one method, others another. But it is certainly possible to move and aim whilst using a vast smorgasbord of various abilities.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
I'm actually on the opposite side of the fence here. After over a decade of playing MMORPG's one thing becomes clear fast. MMORPG's just don't hold the depth or quality of their single player or offline counter parts. I'm looking forward to the direction MMO's are heading. Less turn based and more action based. With the way MMORPG's have been you might as well not be playing with other players. You group up and everyone is assigned different tasks. You heal when we get low, you tank, you DD and you buff and backup heal, you can be puller. It's so basic and simple that you'd be better off having NPC party members to do this for you. Want to be tank? Sweet, here is your NPC party, you have a puller, a healer, a buff/backup heal and some DD"s.
I mean... your just watching life bars and timers basically. This is what everyone of them boils down to basically and honestly this would be done by NPC's a lot better. Then there's no dealing with waiting for an hour or more for a party, no dealing with ass hats loting on things they don't need, no premidonna's to worry about, no ego's to deal with.
When I want the laid back RPG experience I'd rather play RPG's. Bosses are done better, worlds are done better, lore is generally better, quests are better and the overall quality is well just better than their MMO counterparts. There also isn't the need to sit around and waiting for some Sheep to magically respawn so that you can get your +1 Sword of tarded.
Slowly but surely MMO's are moving in the right direction for me at least. They are becoming more action oriented.
Now don't get me wrong some MMORPG's have been great imho, I loved UO and FFXI and stuck with both for many years but those days are long gone. I need a bit more from my MMO's. If I'm paying a monthly fee on top of paying for the game it would be nice if it was better than my off line RPG's.
Yes, Yes, I know "But you can play with friends" is going to be thrown out there. Yes you can, but me and my friends tend to end up doing while we play these type of MMORPG's is just watch Hulu and talk while we play which kind of makes the MMORPG kind of pointless.
There will be those that do like it the way it is, but not everyone does.
well most of us want evolution in gaming we are tired of the same old thing but you can play the 100s of wow clones and outher games that are simple for a lot of us that are completly tired of this system we need something better something faster something more intence so dont wory you got 100s of games to play intell you die of old age with this system you desire the japanese do not progress very much in there gaming so there you go as for me and the ones i play with we need something a lot better
I have to agree to a point. Dragon Age impressed me on how great the instructions you gave your party works. Wynne for instance is a bloody kick ass healer she knows exactly when to heal and as long as she keeps her grubby hands from the higher level lyrium potions she is solid. It just depends on how well you put the tactic slot information. I confess she was a better healer than the mage I played much to my chagrin seeing as I always pride myself in being a kick ass healer myself. To be outhealed by an old beady was no small put down so much so I decided to play a rogue /assassin /bard instead and take advantage of Alistair's superior tanking and her wonderful healing.
To be quite honest they have outperformed many real people I have played with in a MMORPG. They were also more entertaining especially the snide conversations going on between Alistair and Morrigan. However I know at the end of the day having those real conversations and interactions with real people are what makes MMORPGs interesting to me. I don't think I will be very happy if they all turned into Planetside. I prefer the type of strategy and planning dungeon crawling was in EQ for instance. I think the main problem these days is not so much that we need more action in our MMORPGs but that we need more risk. Complacency that the corpse runs in Everquest made sure you were never afflicted with is what is lacking.
I will agree with the complacency. But it's also more than that. As I said in another thread. I want a combat system thats going to put me into the fight. MMO's tend to take you out of the fight and have you coaching your toon from the side lines.
I don't want to coach a char through the game. I want to play the game myself lol.
Alright, when your charge is ready I want you to charge the mob ok, then after he's stunned use your bleed attack. Once you got him bleeding, I need you to finish strong because there's another mob just around the corner.... TAUNT TAUNT HE's GOING FOR THE HEALER!
I don't mind the relaxed pace of MMORPGs, but I do prefer more hit based action combat in MMOs.
A God of War or even a Double Dragon style beat'em up MMO sounds appealing to me, DFO was alright.. But ya know done with today's style of panache. Also I'd like to see a real action MMO come along more in the style of Age of Chivalry rather than Darkfall.
But I like to feel engaged when I'm playing any sort of RPG; even if the combat input is simplistic I'd still like to know I'm making a difference and see some impact here and there.
LOL
Wynne shouldnt be touching those potions eh? Classic
FYI I am sure you know, but you can direct NPCS to use the least powerful potion. Just have to make sure to keep the minor ones stocked. IIRC you can get the lyrium needed for potions from the Mages tower once it is unlocked.
On topic.....
I went back to console gaming in 06. Yes you can sit and tank/spank mobs ala EQ, but I guess I got tired of that "relaxation". It was different in non-traditional trinity grps....like using a pali for heals, or a dual nec grp. Those could get exciting to say the least. Speaking from personal exp of course.
If it wasnt for TOR, I wouldnt be playing another MMO. Although I like the idea of a game that keeps getting content updates, the fact of the matter is the "content" pales in comparison to SPGs.
As far as a lack of having a "real" person to chat to....I am on disability, and ache most the time. I dont wanna deal with others BS, and especially any drama that may occur. Which made going back to console gaming even easier. Dont get me wrong, I had many online friends in EQ....just as my pain has gotten worse, so has my tolerance of MMOs.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
This is where it comes down to individual preferences in games. Nobody can argue against what another prefers (okay, people do it here all the time...but still) and the discussions on which is best is still based simply on that subjective preference.
That being said, I share some of the preferences you have - but not all. Also, I do not see tab targeting-action bar combat as slow. I am surprised that you classify it as such, having given the example of what a tank must be ready to do based on what other members of the trinity do. The same goes for the healer. They never know when some dps is going to snag aggro in a brilliant attempt to die massively. Likewise, a decent dps player is going to be keeping an eye out for rogue mobs that may be making a run for another spawn or deciding that the healer looks tasty. There are going to be times when dps will want to snag that rogue aggro for a moment if the tank cannot grab it. It is kind of sad that combat (to me at least) only becomes exciting when something goes wrong...lol.
I do not enjoy the tank and spank mechanics of games. Much like you stated if somebody wanted a FPS, RTS, or even a fighting game with combos... if I wanted something relaxing, then I would play something like Bejeweled. It is one of the reasons that I prefer PvP over PvE.
I want the Advanced AI. I do not want to feel like I am walking around clubbing baby seals. For the most part, that is how current combat feels to me.
As for cover systems, I would be happy if being behind something actually blocked the attack. Attacking through hills, walls, etc...well, is kind of fail. Do I need a mechanic where my Warlock is ducking and diving from attacks? Oddly enough, he has an "oh crap" teleport (as fail as it may be, painting that big green target for where the guy is going)... but he is not physically ducking and diving.
I do not feel the need for those kind of mechanics. This would include manual aim, etc. There is more twitch in moving the character, selecting the appropriate target and ability to unleash on that target. I would not find the challenge in something as simple as a FPS where all I have to do is aim while holding down a mouse button to spray and pray.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
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