Its nice idea, I just dont think we are at a place yet where anyone can design a working hitbox system that is free of aimbots and can't be exploited in game by other means.
That is one of the main (if not the main) reason that CCP is not going crossplatform with DUST 514. A FPS on a console vs. on a PC... world of difference when it comes down to the "hacks" that could and would be implemented.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Originally posted by VirusDancer Really? There are hit boxes in PnP as a player has a character aim an attack to a specific location. Seems to me it exists already, but it is something they have not implemented in MMORPGs...
Well what you are describing is more thought of as "called shots". I can see where you are coming from in using the hitbox term in relation to called shots, but I think what the OP is referring to is hitboxes used in a manual aiming system.
If you aren't using manual aiming, what makes an aimed attack that much different from something like Hamstring or Disarm?
Its nice idea, I just dont think we are at a place yet where anyone can design a working hitbox system that is free of aimbots and can't be exploited in game by other means.
That is one of the main (if not the main) reason that CCP is not going crossplatform with DUST 514. A FPS on a console vs. on a PC... world of difference when it comes down to the "hacks" that could and would be implemented.
They dont need to do crossplatform to make dust work for pc too and I highly doubt that 360 and PS3 will be in same matches with each other.Anyways I heard CCP bought the licensing rights for DUST514 on PC so I am pretty sure it will come to the PC especially when all the console shooters get bored and move on to the next thrill ride shooter release.
You wouldn't play basketball 1-point-wins, because it's not a long enough game to determine a true victor. Also it makes basketball shallower (since whoever starts with the ball will randomly have a pretty good chance of winning outright; basically there are less factors involved in winning, and the game is less interesting.)
So you need multiple "points" to have good PVP. But the definition of a "point" in a game can vary. In some games a point is a kill, but you respawn instantly ~3 seconds away from the fight, and only after many kills is the victor declared. In other games a point is a successful tactic your opponent fails to counter, inching you closer to a larger victory (such as the 20 points of life in a Magic: the Gathering game, or the health bar of a MMORPG character in a duel.)
Basically you need multiple decisions made over a length of time for PVP to be enjoyable. When combat boils down to only a few narrow decisions (like "wait in ambush and 1-shot the dude") or resolves too quickly, it fails to entertain.
With all that in mind, hitboxes aren't innately bad. They can make for fun combat if implemented right. But 1-shot kills won't be fun unless the entire combat system is built around them.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
However, personally, I'd like to find MMOs that move away from combat being the focus. Even Wizard101, which is a family friendly game, revolves around fighting. We have massive virtual worlds to play in, and the best we seem to be able to do is make more creative ways of beating things/people up.
Agreed, but you can see what an uphill battle a non-combat title would be simply by the utter lack of responses to your idea in this thread. Most players are too unimaginative to want to do anything other than kill, and most devs are too lazy. Combat is the easiest, most cost-effective type of game to produce, which is why that's basically all there is.
However, personally, I'd like to find MMOs that move away from combat being the focus. Even Wizard101, which is a family friendly game, revolves around fighting. We have massive virtual worlds to play in, and the best we seem to be able to do is make more creative ways of beating things/people up.
Agreed, but you can see what an uphill battle a non-combat title would be simply by the utter lack of responses to your idea in this thread. Most players are too unimaginative to want to do anything other than kill, and most devs are too lazy. Combat is the easiest, most cost-effective type of game to produce, which is why that's basically all there is.
There were a lack of responses becaus it was off-topic. The more we reply to it, the more we risk being reported for topic hijacking. And to continue it while applying negative stereotypes to players that may enjoy a different type of gameplay than you... well, yes - all in all, definitely taking the thread in the wrong direction. Just saying...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Little confused by the question, DAOC for one kind of has hit boxes, I havent really payed any attention to other games but I am sure it works this way also, where when you attack it will say "you have attacked xxx in the head for xxx damage". And another game that has another type of hitbox would be planet side where you actually aim. So I guess yes, I would play a game with hitboxes because I have played a mmo with hitboxes.
East Carolina University, Computer Science BS, 2011 -------------------- Current game: DAOC
Games played and quit: L2, PlanetSide, RF Online, GuildWars, SWG, COH/COV, Vanguard, LOTRO, WoW, WW2 Online, FFXI, Auto-Assault, EVE Online, ShadowBane, RYL, Rappelz, Last Chaos, Myst Online, POTBS, EQ2, Warhammer Online, AoC, Aion, Champions Online, Star Trek Online, Allods, Darkfall.
The game would have to be designed around one shot headshots. Character health, etc. would seriously complicate issues.
Actually, no it wouldn't. In the Mass Effect series you can have head shots that don't neccessarily kill the target. Health, armor, shields, and even biotics can play a role in the hit. I wouldn't expect one shot kills in an rpg, but I would expect damage bonuses for headshots and the like.
Simple question, would you play a game that allowed people to one shot you? Why?
We talking about a PC MMOFPS? Very unlikely, automation is way too easy and too hard to detect. Cheating is bad enough in a game like CS where there really is nothing of value to fight over. Couldn't imagine what it would be like in an MMO.
Oh wait, I don't have to imagine...
Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.
The game would have to be designed around one shot headshots. Character health, etc. would seriously complicate issues.
Actually, no it wouldn't. In the Mass Effect series you can have head shots that don't neccessarily kill the target. Health, armor, shields, and even biotics can play a role in the hit.
Was addressing what the OP said about one shot headshots.
Beyond that, it gets into how much of a character's hit points are in the head area. You get into how much higher the damage from the same attack would do to the head as opposed to another location. Hit somebody in the foot with a hammer. Hit somebody in the thigh with a hammer. Hit somebody in the gut with a hammer. Hit somebody in the small of the back with a hammer. Hit them on the shoulder. Hit them on the head. Same hammer. Same force. You are going to do different damage.
The PnP game that comes to mind in discussing more realistic combat would be Phoenix Command.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
PnP is not online mmorpg, we can do things now with the electronic medium that we could not do with PnP. How about LARP, they aim, or are they less viable in terms of RP than pnp?
MMORPGs are based a great deal on PnP. All MMORPGs add is the audio/visual aspects of it...to an extent in the manner by which a movie differs from a book. One could add they include the "massive" part; but in general with the themepark setting of these games - it is more a detriment than an improvement.
As for LARP combat, lol - many LARP games have no combat, they have very limited touch combat with highly restricted zones, etc, etc, etc. That is a pretty bad example to bring up...
The fact of the matter is hitboxes are tantamount to aiming bonuses, whilst you can have them in a non manual aiming game I stand by my original post in that it is pointless.
"Aiming bonuses"...? Do you mean damage bonuses?
If they provide the same advantages, disadvantages, and results as they do in PnP... you would still consider them pointless? So you consider them to be pointless in PnP?
It is fine to have a preference for the simpler mechanics of FPS game play, but some common sense would prevent statements that make little sense.
That mmorpgs are 'based' on PnP does not mean that they have to completely adhere to their exact mechanics. People don't aim for themselves in PnP because it is impossible to do so, that does not mean that now we have the ability to do so via the electronic medium, we should not simply because it 'wasn't done back in the day'.
LARP was brought up because (whilst hilarious), some do indeed involve people hitting each other with fake weapons within a system that also has some form of stat/progression/rp element.
I consider them 'pointless' due to the fact that given todays technology we can have systems that allow for actual aiming, and it seems 'pointless' to me to included something like hitboxes without first having a true aiming system in a game in the first place. They are not pointless in PnP because there is no technology in PnP that allows the player to actually 'aim' for themselves, hence my larp comment.
Pure FPS games have simpler mechanics, fps aiming is not though, inherently simpler then pressing TAB. You can have a game that effectively has all of the 'complexity' of an mmorpg which instead requires the user to aim for themselves as opposed to pressing TAB. I am not saying that all games should be like that, I am not saying everyone wants that, I am saying that from my own personal point of view a game which has specific hitboxes seems to me to warrant a manual aiming system.
I understand you seem to be vehemently against actually having to aim in an rpg, but I am not and as such the answer to the OP is still that having hitboxes in an mmorpg which doesn't require aiming in the first place seems pretty pointless.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Your association of one-shot with hitbox is odd, but it seems the trend here that most of the people who post concerns about hit boxes don't really understand what they are.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Based on current FPS hitboxes i'd say no. They are pretty awful at the moment and hit registration goes with it. Seen in many games the hitbox doesn't actually stay on you when moving, it lags behind so when you are infact behind a wall your hitbox is still out in the open and people can kill you.
Until they fix the reg and hitboxes in FPS's, i don't want to see them come over to MMO's.
(I do mean proper hitboxes, not 1 giant box which shouldn't even exist)
I understand you seem to be vehemently against actually having to aim in an rpg, but I am not and as such the answer to the OP is still that having hitboxes in an mmorpg which doesn't require aiming in the first place seems pretty pointless.
We had how long a discussion in the other thread? I am not opposed to having to aim in a MMMORPG. I am for aiming when appropriate with the chance that the character would still miss even if the player thinks they should hit. Certain attacks and abilities - those with a physical path between player and target, would require aiming - those without that physical path would not... along the lines of DDO which offers the hold the mousebutton down spray and pray attack common in FPS games, the character can still miss. We went through this - that I want a hybrid system that reflects that you are playing a character and not simply remotely controlling some empty shell of an avatar.
So to me, the addition of hit boxes which act akin to called shots from the PnP world... is in no way pointless. It adds another level to the ability to explore realism and enjoy a more complex combat system.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
I'm not going to go over that last discussion again, suffice to say that whilst I respect your point of view I don't agree with it. I personally feel that removing tab targeting and the 'to hit' roll by adding twitch aiming is a hybrid system of the two and leaves vast amounts of scope for the characters stats to still decide combat. You don't agree with that, such is life, but there clearly is little point in going on about, it's not what this thread is about and more importantly we simply are not going to agree on the subject.
You think that having hitboxes in a tab target game is fine, to me it seems pointless with the possible exception of in a tactical space style game in which you target subsystems.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Comments
That is one of the main (if not the main) reason that CCP is not going crossplatform with DUST 514. A FPS on a console vs. on a PC... world of difference when it comes down to the "hacks" that could and would be implemented.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Well what you are describing is more thought of as "called shots". I can see where you are coming from in using the hitbox term in relation to called shots, but I think what the OP is referring to is hitboxes used in a manual aiming system.If you aren't using manual aiming, what makes an aimed attack that much different from something like Hamstring or Disarm?
They dont need to do crossplatform to make dust work for pc too and I highly doubt that 360 and PS3 will be in same matches with each other.Anyways I heard CCP bought the licensing rights for DUST514 on PC so I am pretty sure it will come to the PC especially when all the console shooters get bored and move on to the next thrill ride shooter release.
You wouldn't play basketball 1-point-wins, because it's not a long enough game to determine a true victor. Also it makes basketball shallower (since whoever starts with the ball will randomly have a pretty good chance of winning outright; basically there are less factors involved in winning, and the game is less interesting.)
So you need multiple "points" to have good PVP. But the definition of a "point" in a game can vary. In some games a point is a kill, but you respawn instantly ~3 seconds away from the fight, and only after many kills is the victor declared. In other games a point is a successful tactic your opponent fails to counter, inching you closer to a larger victory (such as the 20 points of life in a Magic: the Gathering game, or the health bar of a MMORPG character in a duel.)
Basically you need multiple decisions made over a length of time for PVP to be enjoyable. When combat boils down to only a few narrow decisions (like "wait in ambush and 1-shot the dude") or resolves too quickly, it fails to entertain.
With all that in mind, hitboxes aren't innately bad. They can make for fun combat if implemented right. But 1-shot kills won't be fun unless the entire combat system is built around them.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Agreed, but you can see what an uphill battle a non-combat title would be simply by the utter lack of responses to your idea in this thread. Most players are too unimaginative to want to do anything other than kill, and most devs are too lazy. Combat is the easiest, most cost-effective type of game to produce, which is why that's basically all there is.
There were a lack of responses becaus it was off-topic. The more we reply to it, the more we risk being reported for topic hijacking. And to continue it while applying negative stereotypes to players that may enjoy a different type of gameplay than you... well, yes - all in all, definitely taking the thread in the wrong direction. Just saying...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Little confused by the question, DAOC for one kind of has hit boxes, I havent really payed any attention to other games but I am sure it works this way also, where when you attack it will say "you have attacked xxx in the head for xxx damage". And another game that has another type of hitbox would be planet side where you actually aim. So I guess yes, I would play a game with hitboxes because I have played a mmo with hitboxes.
East Carolina University, Computer Science BS, 2011
--------------------
Current game: DAOC
Games played and quit: L2, PlanetSide, RF Online, GuildWars, SWG, COH/COV, Vanguard, LOTRO, WoW, WW2 Online, FFXI, Auto-Assault, EVE Online, ShadowBane, RYL, Rappelz, Last Chaos, Myst Online, POTBS, EQ2, Warhammer Online, AoC, Aion, Champions Online, Star Trek Online, Allods, Darkfall.
Waiting on: Earthrise
Names: Citio, Goldie, Sportacus
The game would have to be designed around one shot headshots. Character health, etc. would seriously complicate issues.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Actually, no it wouldn't. In the Mass Effect series you can have head shots that don't neccessarily kill the target. Health, armor, shields, and even biotics can play a role in the hit. I wouldn't expect one shot kills in an rpg, but I would expect damage bonuses for headshots and the like.
Fallen Earth has head shots, not killshots though:P but you do critical damage by getting head shot:P
We talking about a PC MMOFPS? Very unlikely, automation is way too easy and too hard to detect. Cheating is bad enough in a game like CS where there really is nothing of value to fight over. Couldn't imagine what it would be like in an MMO.
Oh wait, I don't have to imagine...
Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.
Was addressing what the OP said about one shot headshots.
Beyond that, it gets into how much of a character's hit points are in the head area. You get into how much higher the damage from the same attack would do to the head as opposed to another location. Hit somebody in the foot with a hammer. Hit somebody in the thigh with a hammer. Hit somebody in the gut with a hammer. Hit somebody in the small of the back with a hammer. Hit them on the shoulder. Hit them on the head. Same hammer. Same force. You are going to do different damage.
The PnP game that comes to mind in discussing more realistic combat would be Phoenix Command.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Hitboxes = cool...
1 or 2 shot is bullshit....
Yes.
Mostly because I already do.
I think you win for summing up the discussion in the fewest words.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
That mmorpgs are 'based' on PnP does not mean that they have to completely adhere to their exact mechanics. People don't aim for themselves in PnP because it is impossible to do so, that does not mean that now we have the ability to do so via the electronic medium, we should not simply because it 'wasn't done back in the day'.
LARP was brought up because (whilst hilarious), some do indeed involve people hitting each other with fake weapons within a system that also has some form of stat/progression/rp element.
I consider them 'pointless' due to the fact that given todays technology we can have systems that allow for actual aiming, and it seems 'pointless' to me to included something like hitboxes without first having a true aiming system in a game in the first place. They are not pointless in PnP because there is no technology in PnP that allows the player to actually 'aim' for themselves, hence my larp comment.
Pure FPS games have simpler mechanics, fps aiming is not though, inherently simpler then pressing TAB. You can have a game that effectively has all of the 'complexity' of an mmorpg which instead requires the user to aim for themselves as opposed to pressing TAB. I am not saying that all games should be like that, I am not saying everyone wants that, I am saying that from my own personal point of view a game which has specific hitboxes seems to me to warrant a manual aiming system.
I understand you seem to be vehemently against actually having to aim in an rpg, but I am not and as such the answer to the OP is still that having hitboxes in an mmorpg which doesn't require aiming in the first place seems pretty pointless.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Your association of one-shot with hitbox is odd, but it seems the trend here that most of the people who post concerns about hit boxes don't really understand what they are.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Based on current FPS hitboxes i'd say no. They are pretty awful at the moment and hit registration goes with it. Seen in many games the hitbox doesn't actually stay on you when moving, it lags behind so when you are infact behind a wall your hitbox is still out in the open and people can kill you.
Until they fix the reg and hitboxes in FPS's, i don't want to see them come over to MMO's.
(I do mean proper hitboxes, not 1 giant box which shouldn't even exist)
We had how long a discussion in the other thread? I am not opposed to having to aim in a MMMORPG. I am for aiming when appropriate with the chance that the character would still miss even if the player thinks they should hit. Certain attacks and abilities - those with a physical path between player and target, would require aiming - those without that physical path would not... along the lines of DDO which offers the hold the mousebutton down spray and pray attack common in FPS games, the character can still miss. We went through this - that I want a hybrid system that reflects that you are playing a character and not simply remotely controlling some empty shell of an avatar.
So to me, the addition of hit boxes which act akin to called shots from the PnP world... is in no way pointless. It adds another level to the ability to explore realism and enjoy a more complex combat system.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
I'm not going to go over that last discussion again, suffice to say that whilst I respect your point of view I don't agree with it. I personally feel that removing tab targeting and the 'to hit' roll by adding twitch aiming is a hybrid system of the two and leaves vast amounts of scope for the characters stats to still decide combat. You don't agree with that, such is life, but there clearly is little point in going on about, it's not what this thread is about and more importantly we simply are not going to agree on the subject.
You think that having hitboxes in a tab target game is fine, to me it seems pointless with the possible exception of in a tactical space style game in which you target subsystems.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."