Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Do you think permadeath would bring together or tear apart MMO society and grouping?
Emergence
Member Posts: 888
Subject: Permadeath in any MMO, current MMO or imagined.
Argument 1: Permadeath would cause players to group together more often, binding together to protect each other. Players would respect one another so they could find groups to tackle content, insuring their character's lives.
Argument 2: Permadeath would cause players to group less, tearing them apart in fear of death. Players would fear death because of another player's bad choices. Players would be paranoid about other's skills and abilities, newbies would be forced to solo, and mistakes would be unforgivable (friendships broken, guilds destroyed).
Devil's Advocate: What if progression was fast or content did not scale with group #? Dungeon A's mobs are the same with 1 person as it is with 5, so 5 is ALWAYS less dangerous. Or would it be ALWAYS?
A new argument and thought to the taboo subject of MMO permadeath.
DISCUSS!!!
EDIT: Added to soften the definition of permadeath so you may answer the question better:
Let's throw out some hypotheticals to help resolve the issue of permadeath, and perhaps soften it.
1) Death is a difficult task. It requires players to stick around and risk themselves after falling below 50% health. Any player can easily get away alive if above 50% health. Let's say when they enter a "danger zone" it becomes a heavier risk, and the longer they stay, the more they risk.
2) Let's say that for every character death, there is actually only a 10% chance for permadeath. So 1 out of 10 players who die, actually suffer permadeath. So not only is death hard to come by, but players have to specifically risk their lives sticking around after their HP falls to a "danger zone", they have many abilities to escape, 99% chance to escape if not in "danger zone" hp, and even if they die there's only a 10% chance they'll suffer permadeath.
3) Progression is much faster than traditional MMO's. There are no levels, only skill system. Players will not lose more than a months progression, or if they play hardcore a weeks? Idk. ANd let's say some forms of progression dont perma-die. Bank items stay forever. Epic Weapons stay until they break. All items break eventually, so loss isnt as big a deal. Gold is stored in the bank and can only be lost if players DONT suffer 10% permadeath but DO die, and it's optional (Pay a Gold ransom or let the character Permadie).
4) There is no FFA open PvP. The PvP is only in specific zones or battlegrounds, or only if players "flag" or only on a PvP server. (Idk, be creative. Assume whatever you think sounds best.)
5) There are safe zones, NPC guards. Also, only "dangerous" marked mobs come to kill. Some "newbie" marked mobs NEVER kill, only steal gold. So not only is death only 10%, but not all mobs even invoke that 10% chance.
6) And in PvP, there is 0% gain from killing a player. All battlegrounds are objective based, where causing the player to flee is more important, and chasing after players actually hurts your side bc you dont get objectives. You can't loot other players either, so no incentive to kill outside of eliminating a threat.
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
Comments
perma death in mmos is justa dumb idea. Even the most hardcore mudds were not dumb enough to perma class/races more than a month before they realized it is an awful idea. Anygame that you logn on to multiple times a week for multiple months should never have perma death.
Loss of items (open loot) can be done (not appealing to most but doable), loss of exp and possibly levels (doable), perma death (not doable).
Edit that poll for bad idea it would cause people never to play the game.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
Perma death will never work in MMO's, so many variables, chances are sooner or later you will get disconnected at a bad time, and lose 1000 hours of play ??
I think permadeath a lot of hardcore would buy it, then quickly realize its a big waste of time and quit.
It would make people not play the game IMO.
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
It's hard enough to find players willing to give up 1/2 level worth of XP as a death penalty. Throw in the towel and start over would be a very tough sell.
You would be hard pressed to find enough players willing to subscribe to a mmo with permadeath.
We don't really need to discuss all that much. We know what happens when a game world is harsh, people band together. You need to look no further than EverQuest or Ultima Online. As for dungeons with content that doesn't scale... most real dungeons DON'T scale. It's WoW and its clones that created the silly immersion breaking scaling BS.
After reading through the replies in my thread
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/296307/What-is-it-that-WoW-and-AION-have-in-common-that-appeals-in-the-East-but-makes-them-vastly-different-in-the-west.html
I come to the understanding that Permadeath in the way you see it (enforcing grouping to protect each other) would not work in the west. But it would work on the East because of their different culture. Individualism is stronger in the west, causing little trust among its community
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
4th option: There would be no pick-up-groups.
EDIT: And you would be splitting friends in a progressive game if one/some of them died. Not very good idea. Or then the game would be very different from a traditional MMO. You can't just tack permadeath on any title and expect it to work.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Only one person actually answered the question correctly, and no, there does not need to be a "This is a bad idea!" option...
Also, the question isn't "Is this a bad idea or a good idea?" it is simply "Would it tie players together or split them apart?"
The discussion is how it would affect the community, not if it should be in a game. Please read the question as it is, and use your brains. Don't...NOT read it and NOT use your brains.
That's just silly. It's a very simple question.
A lot of you have ruined the poll by voting for "It would tear the community apart, causing players to solo" as saying "This is a bad idea, I don't like it." That was not an option, and now I cannot use the poll to accurately determine people's opinions (especially since only ONE person stated their actual opinion on the question).
Regardless if it was a bad idea or not is irrelevant to the actual question- will it cause players to band together or to hide in fear? This assumes all players are playing the game, enjoying the game, but not wanting to die. Players who do not enjoy the idea would not play it, and the question is hypothetical, assuming everyone (including you) are playing it for some reason.
Perhaps it's as simple as saying "A developer breaks into your house and forces you to play a permadeath game. It doesn't matter how well you do in it. If you don't play it, you will die IRL. So you play, and decide to make the most of the experience. Would this concept band a community together or tear it apart?"
There is no "I would use kung fu on the developer, take his gun, and dragon ball z blast his face in after calling the cops." option.
No. Just answer the question, if that isn't too hard for you...which it apparently is.
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
Thank you. You were the only person to actually answer the question.
Everyone else couldn't read and instead created their own question "Should permadeath be in a game? Is it a good idea?"
No one asked that question. The question was very simple, "What would it do to the community that stayed?" and only you answered.
Thank you for your brain.
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
Personally, I would not play perma-death MMO's, unless there's an inheritance option that your newly crated char will get everything it has (money & items that is).
I remember Shaya to have a perma-death option that coule be unlocked if you had a char of at least level <x>. Though the option was there, I know only a few players did actually take this perma-death opted char. The pro for having one was that it was a bit stronger than the average char (10% I thought), and received more loot. But the con was (to me and most other players) that you'd loose everything upon death.
So I think it answers your question somewhat, that people in general would get paranoia playing a char that has perma-death.
Personally, if a MMO has only perma-death, I would not play it, or I'd play it with a guild and group all the time with my guild - no solo content anymore...
It will cause them to run in fear and then cancel their subscription.
The real issue here is you aren't defining permadeath at all.
Will it be difficult to kill a person? Will it take a quick knife across the throat? Will it take 20 people beating on someone?
Are there going to be any advantages to killing someone?
Are there going to be any disadvantages to killing someone?
Are there going to be safe areas?
Are there going to be NPC guards?
Is there some sort of justice system involved?
All of those questions greatly affect the answer to your question. And the list goes on nearly indefinitely. If no one knows the rules of the game, how can we determine if perma-death will bring people together or tear them apart?
Are you asking what would happen under the WoW ruleset if people would perma-die? Are you asking what would happen under the Darkfall ruleset if people would perma die? Are you asking based on your own version of a game that could include perma-death?
I think people are having trouble answering the question the way you want them to because there just isn't enough information.
I think it would overall tear up the community. Just looking at myself, I wouldn't want to play with anyone except my real life friends, and I wouldn't want to group with them that much even, if there was permadeath. The community would be very seperated, people only grouping with the same 1-5 people, people only crafting things for those people, making it just better to be a regular online game instead of an mmo.
In a game with permadeath, survival would be the main point of the game, and you can't build the same type of trust or sense of survival in a game that you can in real life. In real life you would never go toward danger, but just looking at horror game lovers, you may be cautious, but you still go into the darkness.
-I want a Platformer MMO
I don't understand how would perma death make you group less. Why?
I think it's obvious it would make you look for outside help more often, because there is less chance of dying when you have greater force. Logic.
The very idea of permadeath is interesting, but never got implemented well.
Every bigger successful MMO should have one server dedicated to permadeath ruleset. They could change it's rules gradualy, according to that server community's needs and requests.
Yes, you often get that sort of curiosity and intelligence from literal-minded people. You are right.
I took option 1, because I am positive about different solutions to community in MMOs and because I interpret the question with a context of my own where this implementation WOULD indeed work in an MMO to make communities "more tight" with each other.
Just take some real-world examples as a thought-experiment or in a different context: People in Japan were very polite in a culture where a slight could result in your head being decapitated or other cultures where duals too place. In nature you have animals forming social structures when conditions are very stringent on survival and groups out-compete individuals. Would be another simple context to consider also and start a concept from there.
So the necessity drives the cooperation and that would be the same concept in an MMO, I'd expect and there you start your design with all the details to iron out etc.
Personally I would like to try such an MMO. High reward/High Cost; live by the sword...
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
Unfortunately it would certainly tear apart any current MMO with the second option in the poll being the obvious one. In an MMO designed around it, the first option would be the choice.
On a side note I would play a permadeath MMO, the challenge involved is just to tasty to pass up, I love to grab single player games and slap on the hardcore mode, do it as difficult as possible, run instances before i am ready etc.
Irrelevant question because it would bring an empty MMO. No players, no community, no groups.
It would make people more willing to group up, considering that the mobs are not scaled, and any cognitive being with a modicum of grey matter would realize that 2 is better than 1. How succesfull the interaction would be relies on several factors. Chiefly, how easy is it to grief. If its very easy to grief by training mobs onto someone then porting out, then the asshats would ruin the game because being a dbag is easy. If levelling is difficult, then perhaps being a dbag isnt such a great move without a strong guild to help you level, because as soon as you screw over someone, word of mouth spreads and your dickbaggery gets you uninvited from all but the newest of characters.
Thats just me thinking of how dbags can ruin the game by using its own mechanics against it, I dont advocate it, or participate, however being able to see the worst in people and how they would use natural conditions against other people 'for the lulz' is part of me.
For bringing a community together, yes, it will for a time, until content is trivialised that it can be soloed through, or progress through levels so that lower dungeons no longer require running. Once people pass a threshold of progression, they tend to want to keep moving forward, and not return to lower areas to help lowbies, so unless there is a stream of lower level players, or alts (Permadeath takes care of this issue funnily enough
) hrm, where was I going before I torpedoed my own train of though (Silly rabbit, torpedoes are for ships!) 4:30am...... need coffee brb.
I think that perhaps, yes, permadeath would bring a community together, because teh risk vs reward is heavily tipped to the reward side when content is not scaled for multiple people, however, the loot obtainied from that dungeon, when split amongst multiple people should be of the same quantity than if one person managed to complete the dungeon given enough time and planning. Take 5 people share 500 between 5 people, they each walk away with 100 each, solo it, walk away with 500, this creates a new problem of character balancing, but that is a seperate discussion.
As for permadeath being a viable option, that was not part of the OP's question! However the Discuss could pertain to its implementation, I will say that I have mixed feelings about permadeath, perhaps a compromise could be inacted? On death you lose all of your items not stored in a bank/vault/safe, they dont get looted, they just dissapear with your corpse, no corpse run required. This, of course, requires a game to not be a gear based treadmill, and instead focuses on character growth, gear is, (as it should be) secondary but complimentary to your characters abilities, rather than the definition of your character. This, of course, makes dungeoning a very risky system as you enter to upgrade your gear from a +1 mace to a +2 sword, you have a chance of losing everything, unless you store that +1 mace and run in with vendor/crafted gear.
Now im just confusing myself, apologies.
Of the two options, I feel that option 1 is more likely, while you will still have ego maniacs cry about how so and so didnt use the wand of eternal healing sparkly lights at the right time, people usually ignore the crybabies and get on with life. Drama is for the stage, not guilds, people need to remember that.
Bunch of horse shit here.
Its not going to work anywhere, first off.
Now the west has had as many hardcore multiplayer games that required people to "stick together" Maybe not so much of late, but then agian nor has the "east" ( at least as popular games go).
Look at the mudds in the US a great deal of them requires more work and effort of group than any "east" game i have seen. With harsh penalties (loss of levels, master levels, all equipement [includign artis], loss of towns, guild houses, guild chests of loot, etc.) This in a free pvp game, anyone, anywhere, and anytime. This happened on open pvp servers many mmos have used, or the ffa pvp areas other have used. People group up and fight for the common good everywhere. And stiffer penalties = more grouping up everywhere.
Now there were some hxc options in some multiple player game s aka diablo, etc. But you can level in those just vs mobs and not even owrry about getting "ganked"
I know that dofus has a perma death option and thats the only mmo that i am aware that does. But then agian in dofus you can have multiple toons and your not gonna get ganked.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
Yep. This should be choice number 4 on the poll. People would quit playing this game the first time they died.
hell, I'd quit if I died at level one and had to start over.
I'd go with Choice 4 as well. Players don't really want it and, of the few that do, the manner in which they want it (remort, reincarnation or other stat/progress retaining mechanics) defeats the point of permadeath.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Picked number 2, but the consequences would reach far further than that.
Permadeath, or high DPs, do NOT increase challenge in a game. They only increase risk.
The result would be, that people won't take on anything challenging. They won't touch anything that couldn't be beaten with relative ease. Few, save the biggest dopamine addicts, or folks that game while drunk, will seek any significant level of challenge.
Some folks keep arguing that high DPs increase challenge, and they couldn't be more wrong. As a developer, there's no way you're going to be so stupid as to create a challenge which, unless all players are doing things at least 90% right(finding bosses weaknesses, full buffs, healers on the ball, optimal tactics etc), their failure means a complete reroll. More likely, they'll create a challenge in which you could click a couple times, drool on your keyboard, and lag for 20 seconds and still make it out, alive.
Now they WILL create a challenge in the case where a TPW is, say, a 15-20 minute setback. Where the group can learn from their mistakes and try again; where if they DON'T learn, they'll experience the TPW again and again. A PD TPW takes away any opportunity to learn anything from the encounter, and thus, unless everything can be defeated in exactly the same way using the same tactics(dullsville), you never learn anything new.
Permadeath would bring characters together, but would also cause players to run away (from the game).
It iwouldn't do either because you wouldn't have a community to strengthen or tear apart. There aren't enough people to support this in any kind of serious way. It all sounds so hardcore until you lose your character over something stupid like a server crash, lag spike or accidentally ending up somewhere you didn't want to go because you clicked on the wrong icon on the map. Stupid deaths will happen and people will get fed up with it quickly. The only ones left will be the truly masochistic, and there simply won't be enough of them to justify an entire game dedicated to them.
If you want perma-death, delete your characters when you die. It's damned simple. And if you don't have the inner fortitude to stick to that one little rule, you're not masochistic enough to handle a real perma-death environment.
Fuzzy logic.
While working on my Legendary Survivor title in Guild Wars (reaching a certain level of experience without ever dying) I had two rules: never group and zone when things got tight. You can always, always, always rely on other players to get you killed. If not due to an honest mistake, then through malice or ineptitude. Trusting your fellow gamers would be as foolish as giving a fresh egg to a hyper active 6 year old and telling them not to drop it. You may come back and find it unharmed, but when your three month old character is on the line, would you play those odds? I wouldn't.
You may disagree with the logic, but that's the reality.
Other. Players. Get. You. Killed.