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Is there a solution for lag deaths? Even in a permadeath (any MMO with permadeath)?
Emergence
Member Posts: 888
Arguably, permadeath isn't a horrible idea if softened, the game advancement is built around it, and niche players enjoy it.
That's not what I want to argue though. I want to argue over the biggest hurdle and discrimination against permadeath. That is going Link Dead. Lagging out. Disconnects.
Perhaps instead of permadeath, it's stat loss or loot loss. It's irrelevant the system (permadeath being the harshest if lagged to death) but the problem remains the same: can you fix it? Can you solve it?
This is perhaps far greater than the puzzle of "How do I make permadeath applicable?"
Because it doesn't matter if you make permadeath fun or enjoyable- there are Disconnects. Going Link Dead can ruin any system with harsh penalties for death.
This thread is to ask "Are there any geniuses out there?" Is there anyone smart enough to circumvent the problem of Server:Host? A solution to fix the inevitable loss?
My only idea would be to have a system which keeps track of disconnects. Or an honor system. The problem with that is
1) Those with actual disconnection problems who often go link dead because of their ISP, they would have a horrible record in the honor system. This means the very people the system is meant to help, are those who are most untrusted by the computer system. "Sorry, no revive because you disconnect too much!"
2) People will abuse this system, unplugging their internet on purpose. "I only do it once a month, so I always get a revive!"
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
Comments
Mmm...I don't see how you could fight this unless the lag/blip happens for the whole server at the same time. It's not as if people could just say, hey I lagged...gimme my char back pls. They could say that even if they died without it. I'm not an expert on hardware or anything so, I'm not sure if the GM's/Devs actually have a way to check if someone's connection was interrupted. Do they? If so that could be an answer to it, but even then, that would be a huge load on customer support, having to verify the many claims of lag/dc. Especially since most of them would probably be a lie.
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
Good points.
I am very curious to ANY players who do have bad internet connections. How do they feel? If they played a game with permadeath or stat loss, and enjoyed it (hypothetical, just pretend somehow you like it) how would they feel if their ISP got them killed?
Would they blame the game? The developers? Would they ragequit? Call their ISP to rage?
Is there a solution to a better ISP for them? Should they be considered or ignored as a minority? Is it "their fault"??
Interesting questions for interesting people.
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
There is a workaround for lag server side. It's called keep-alive. The client sends a packet every here and there (predetermined time intervals). Let's say that time interval is 200ms. So if the server doesn't get a packet from your client for like 300-400ms it considers that you "lag" or even "disconnected" and can make you temporarily immune to monster attacks or even log you out.
I think WoW has a much more complicated and sophisticated mechanism of what i described above.
And what prevents players from abusing this feature?
Anytime a player wants to survive or exit, they merely pull the plug on their internet or pause their modem?
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
If it's the game servers lagging then it is simply a case of revoking the death penalty if the zone you are in has a sufficiently high lag rating to warrant it.
If it's on your side, disconnect, IP drop off then i'm afraid such is life. Perhaps you could file a ticket which shows proof of your IP server crashing but aside from that it really is tough titties .
Games with perma death (or those who take up 'hardcore' mode) suit people who are, shall we say, a little more pragmatic about situations like this. Someone who is going to ragequit due to an unlucky random IP crash is perhaps not best suited to a game with perma death in in the first place.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Interesting viewpoint! So you're saying that players who choose 'hardcore' mode wouldn't be as upset with a lag-death because they understand "it happens" and although it sucked, would admit "It's the price to pay. It's life." a.k.a. the pragmatic way to handle it.
Lol, idk why but this reminds me of my days in Ultima Online where a few times I knew, I knew I knew I KNEW I was going to die and lose A LOT of loot to a PK. So before I died, I just signed off for the day. I never got the "AUGH!!" death sound and the ghost playing in these moments. I logged off while still 10% hp (my opponent 100% going to win).
Sometimes it is easier to just pull the plug or /quit than to grind your teeth watching your health fall to zero, hear the "AUGH!!" sound of death, suffering the knowledge you lost 4000 gold and 2 hours of labor the moment that black screen surrounds your game: "You Are Dead."
Hours later I'd log back in as if nothing happened. LoL. What 4000 gold? I lost NOTHING!!!!
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
Players do abuse this system by generating localized lag. It is a form of desync. You can tell the bad systems, because they make Player A immune... but Player A can still frag Player B who is not immune.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Well you didnt say whether this was pvp or pve so Ill assume pve. You could have the server save the local world state at the time of LD. If you are fighting a mob and lose conn then when you log back in that mob is still there trying to kill you.
And to the point of blaming the players isp - its not always the isp. That packet has to go miles, sometimes thousands of miles and can run into trouble anywhere along the way. The internet itself is not perfect.
This is a poser, the permadeath dream is on hold. Guess it would boil down to player honesty if the technological side of things is not 100% water-tight. What a thought!
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
Perma-bans for repeat offenders.
If you're gonna have perma-death, might as well go the extra mile and enforce perma-bans too. Hit them in the wallet and most of it will go away.
People that are victims of people using lag to get an advantage are resurrected upon investigation.
I guess it would take having very strong investigation tools and a good portion of development being spent on that side of the game. I'm sure you could get something pretty solid going to prevent abuse. The problem is, would it be worth it.
The solution is to have death not be a major setback. If your group wipes at the boss, that's life -- you lose a couple minutes coming back to life, but no serious progression is lost.
You can't special-case disconnects in terms of death, because you can't be sure if a disconnect is real or faked (whether you special-case disconnects or not, players will try to use it exploitively.)
The only thing you can do is streamline the process of getting back connected to the game. The less hoops the player has to jump through (once their internet returns) the better.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Wow... you're a genius!!!!
That's it!!!
Starcraft style pause menu, allowing a group to wait for a player, or to drop him.
If they drop him after a short timer, then whenever he logs back in, the state was saved and he must perform normally. Player Group members could be replaced by NPC's.
After the encounter (out of combat) the player is forced to retreat as his NPC allies disappear. Retreat is safe...if he made it out of the encounter alive.
With a system like this--- groups can wait for link dead members, and if they drop them or dont want to wait (drop) they can continue on with their adventure. When the link dead player logs back in, he has to finish the encounter and if he survives and exits, he can /tell the group and ask to be let back in or not. If he is, he is teleported back in with the group.
If in PvP battleground zone and going LD... should the same system be in place???
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
Another solution would be to have non-permadeath mobs or dungeons. Those with a safe connection can go there.
An even bigger solution would be to have non-permadeath options where players can go through most content without permadeath on. The permadeath on content just gives a MASSIVE boost in XP and Loot, as well as a higher cap for their characters.
I am thinking if I ever make a permadeath system, I will do it how I originally planned.
Permadeath Off - Skills max at 60/100, treasure rewards are never above rare and lower chances for rares, slower advancement. Legendary Dungeons are locked.
Permadeath On- Skills max at 100/100, treasure rewards are uncapped (rares, epics, legendary), higher chances for rares, faster advancement. Legendary Dungeons are unlocked. Only these plays can unlock the most powerful of items and abilities.
Or an alternate system, my original one, which is a permanent skill gain (slow) from 1/100 to 40/100. Every character starts at this permanent skill gain. Character advancement is very fast from 1 to 100. Items aren't lost, but all items decay. Bank is permanently safe.
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
Anytime permadeath is a possibility, disconnects are also a possibility. So the first solution doesn't strongly address the real issue because nobody plans on disconnecting (well, aside from the exploiters.)
The other solutions are better, but if I"m seriously capped at 60/100% (a hrash penalty on top of the harsh loot penalty) then I probably wouldn't bother playing. There are better games out there and it's easier to choose the games that really want me to keep playing them.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Have your character controlled by a server side AI when you are not around. Not a very good one mind you, basic attacks maybe some spells but reasonably worse than the average player possibly even have it's effectiveness based on your 'rank' in pvp/pve. Preferably lets you set some orders such as "on disconnect wait in place for * minutes then go to nearest safe town", "run if on less than 40% health" etc.
Doesn't solve it but reduces it a bit. In a lot of these situations if you disconnect your character sits there getting pummeled by enemy until your dead with something like this you won't die from that. A few times your losing so you log out but you'll still lose as your AI isn't as good as you. In a close battle this won't solve the issue though.
nowhere near a complete solution but it helps a bit.
Into the breach meatbags