First I'll admit to not reading the entire thread so if I repeat the answer my apologies.
The answer is actually quite simple. They cannot train you how to pvp because they cannot predict what players will do. PVE mobs have a very limited choice of attacks/methods. It's essentially pacman. Once you learn the pattern, fight over, you win.
It's the same reason no company can find every bug. No matter how comprehensive the test plan, some user will go and do something no one ever imagined s/he would do. As a long time PnP DM, I've encountered this more times than I care to remember.
You beat me to it. This is exactly why a game cannot teach you how to pvp and why it is impossible for there to be tutorials on it. How could you expect for a game to somehow teach you what a player is going to do when every single player is different? It's the same with fighting games if you've ever played any. You can beat up on the computer all you want but unless you maybe watch videos studying and just fighting other people in general you will never pick up peoples tendencies or figure out what to do in certain situations.
You don't neccessarily have to be a hardcore to even be a good pvper. It's all about reading an opponent and having quick reactions. And in my opinon(might get flamed for it) being a clicker doesn't neccessarily mean that you'll be at a disadvantage in pvp. It all comes down to reactions and quick thinking which isn't something that pve requires in most cases. Practice makes perfect like everyone else has said but there will never be any instance in which a game can teach you pvp.
So, on one level I completely agree. I even wrote an article piece on what we are doing to our children with this "no losers" "no tolerance" policies in place in our schools today and how we are failing to prepare our children to enter the competative and harsh reality of life in the real world.
However, I do NOT think this has anything to do with our current MMOs. I do think accessability is a chief concern and most people want to "play a story" not compete all the time.
I prefer PVE but not because I am bad at PVP. I play tons of PVP in MMOs and win way more than I lose. I also play competative PVP FPS games reasonably well. It is the FPS games that makes me feel your consideration regading our youth is off base some. Tons of kids play competative FPS games and the fact is it is both harsh and unforgiving yet it is popular. If you lose, you get told and schooled by the typically immature audience and some of these games are fiercely competative.
The reason it has not translated as much to MMOs is because i believe I am the typical MMO player. I prefer the story, and the PVE advancement with loot, etc (ala Diablo, other action RPGs and PC RPGs) to battlegrounds and X on X PVP. So MMOs provide more for the greate rmajority.
APB proved that PVP with little content cannot work I think. If it had a far more robust Mission system (Co-op, group or even some decent single player) with some advancement that was worth while it would have done better.
APB is not a good example, it just proved that people get tired of doing the same thing over and over. That goes for both PvP and PvE.
I think it is more the fact that MMOs today just make PvE a lot better than PvP, while FPS games are the opposite.
MMOs mechanics comes more or less always from Meridian 59 and EQ, two PvE made games. Adding PvP to those mechanics really doesn't work so good, a MMO like that needs a completely new mechanics. That is why Eve is doing pretty fine, even if their system just works in it's setting.
I think a conversion of Games workshops tabletop mechanics would work a lot better, or something else. Just translating FPS mechanics doesn't work so well either since the type of games are different.
I agree with you that PvE is more fun in MMOs than PvP, but since the opposite is true of FPS I just think that it is not PvP in itself that is the problem.
I see your point on APB. Probably not the best example.
I also agree with you on the rest. My reference to FPS games was more to address the thought that kids are not exposed to or taught to be competative. Lots of youngsters play FPS games and are highly competative (not to mention RTS like Starcraft 1 & 2) so I don't think that has anything to do with MMOs and PVP in them today.
First I'll admit to not reading the entire thread so if I repeat the answer my apologies.
The answer is actually quite simple. They cannot train you how to pvp because they cannot predict what players will do. PVE mobs have a very limited choice of attacks/methods. It's essentially pacman. Once you learn the pattern, fight over, you win.
It's the same reason no company can find every bug. No matter how comprehensive the test plan, some user will go and do something no one ever imagined s/he would do. As a long time PnP DM, I've encountered this more times than I care to remember.
You beat me to it. This is exactly why a game cannot teach you how to pvp and why it is impossible for there to be tutorials on it. How could you expect for a game to somehow teach you what a player is going to do when every single player is different? It's the same with fighting games if you've ever played any. You can beat up on the computer all you want but unless you maybe watch videos studying and just fighting other people in general you will never pick up peoples tendencies or figure out what to do in certain situations.
You don't neccessarily have to be a hardcore to even be a good pvper. It's all about reading an opponent and having quick reactions. And in my opinon(might get flamed for it) being a clicker doesn't neccessarily mean that you'll be at a disadvantage in pvp. It all comes down to reactions and quick thinking which isn't something that pve requires in most cases. Practice makes perfect like everyone else has said but there will never be any instance in which a game can teach you pvp.
I wouldn't go quite, almost but not quite, that far. Until the games have many completely different routines for a mob to use, it won't be able to teach you how to read and react to a PVP situation. And even then it would only be a beginners course.
@virusdancer - I think WoW does teach you the PVE game by giving you tons of quests ad nauseum as you level. Basically making you have muscle memory with skill rotations. PVP, while I understand it is ten times more flexible should maybe offer something similar in design. Like giving you quests for WSG at level 15 and some type of tip on how to capture a flag while killing a player as well and then rewarding you for it with a bit of xp and gold and an item or 2.
I really do not see WoW actually teaching players how to PvE. Quests simply send you to areas where PvE happens but how you actually play PvE is entirely up to the player. All the learning is done through trial and error and by sharing the results of that trial and error with other players. The game never tells you what skills and rotations of skills to use, the player figures it out on their own (and sometimes doesn't at all). You get a new skill, you use it against a mob to see how it affects it and then try to figure out synergies with other skills you might have. There are no tuturials on 'How To Kill a Murloc', you are simply given some quests to kill murlocs and figuring out how to do it is pretty much up to you.
Originally posted by elos_rekat First I'll admit to not reading the entire thread so if I repeat the answer my apologies. The answer is actually quite simple. They cannot train you how to pvp because they cannot predict what players will do. PVE mobs have a very limited choice of attacks/methods. It's essentially pacman. Once you learn the pattern, fight over, you win. It's the same reason no company can find every bug. No matter how comprehensive the test plan, some user will go and do something no one ever imagined s/he would do. As a long time PnP DM, I've encountered this more times than I care to remember.
Yeah, but just like driving in real life, you don't really learn how to drive until you just do it and keep doing it. However, you still have to learn the basics and take a test in order to be legally allowed to start driving(experiencing/learning how to drive).
So why not the same idea with PVP. Some type of basic test or course via game methods in order to give you a guideline.
Originally posted by elocke @virusdancer - I think WoW does teach you the PVE game by giving you tons of quests ad nauseum as you level. Basically making you have muscle memory with skill rotations. PVP, while I understand it is ten times more flexible should maybe offer something similar in design. Like giving you quests for WSG at level 15 and some type of tip on how to capture a flag while killing a player as well and then rewarding you for it with a bit of xp and gold and an item or 2.
I really do not see WoW actually teaching players how to PvE. Quests simply send you to areas where PvE happens but how you actually play PvE is entirely up to the player. All the learning is done through trial and error and by sharing the results of that trial and error with other players. The game never tells you what skills and rotations of skills to use, the player figures it out on their own (and sometimes doesn't at all). You get a new skill, you use it against a mob to see how it affects it and then try to figure out synergies with other skills you might have. There are no tuturials on 'How To Kill a Murloc', you are simply given some quests to kill murlocs and figuring out how to do it is pretty much up to you.
How can you say that? What is the whole point in giving you 80 levels to learn the game? Giving you skills as you go once you've spent 2 levels with skills they give you more and so on. In that respect, it DOES teach you how to PVE. t doesnt' give you the exact skill rotation to use but it does give you the basics and some quests even go as far as to teaching you how to use certain skills, such as crowd control skills or healing, etc.
This is my whole point. PVP has basics and why aren't they being taught?
First I'll admit to not reading the entire thread so if I repeat the answer my apologies.
The answer is actually quite simple. They cannot train you how to pvp because they cannot predict what players will do. PVE mobs have a very limited choice of attacks/methods. It's essentially pacman. Once you learn the pattern, fight over, you win.
It's the same reason no company can find every bug. No matter how comprehensive the test plan, some user will go and do something no one ever imagined s/he would do. As a long time PnP DM, I've encountered this more times than I care to remember.
Yeah, but just like driving in real life, you don't really learn how to drive until you just do it and keep doing it. However, you still have to learn the basics and take a test in order to be legally allowed to start driving(experiencing/learning how to drive).
So why not the same idea with PVP. Some type of basic test or course via game methods in order to give you a guideline.
PVE is that basic test/course. See my previous post for a more advanced test/course
First I'll admit to not reading the entire thread so if I repeat the answer my apologies.
The answer is actually quite simple. They cannot train you how to pvp because they cannot predict what players will do. PVE mobs have a very limited choice of attacks/methods. It's essentially pacman. Once you learn the pattern, fight over, you win.
It's the same reason no company can find every bug. No matter how comprehensive the test plan, some user will go and do something no one ever imagined s/he would do. As a long time PnP DM, I've encountered this more times than I care to remember.
Yeah, but just like driving in real life, you don't really learn how to drive until you just do it and keep doing it. However, you still have to learn the basics and take a test in order to be legally allowed to start driving(experiencing/learning how to drive).
So why not the same idea with PVP. Some type of basic test or course via game methods in order to give you a guideline.
the basic test is PVE.
Doesnt teach you much, but neither do driving tests, ever watch ____s worst driver? those people all passed there drivers test.
Apparently stating the truth in my sig is "trolling" Sig typo fixed thanks to an observant stragen001.
I see a lot of advice in this thread and most of it is really geared towards PvPers who are looking to become really good at a particular game.
Also just a little issue I had, Humans are predictable and so is PvP.
All you really want to do is pub stomp you’re not looking for perfection; you just want to get the general mindset of what a PvPer should be doing.
Even an uncoordinated baboon can be good at PvP if they know what’s going on.
The most important thing of any PvP is being prepared for it. Win battles before they are ever fought.
I will give you some general advice that should apply to any rpg like PvP environment.
Know your PvP game. The best way to find this out is go to forums about PvP, Figure out what are considered the easy and common builds or setups for w/e you are doing. If you’re new to it you don’t want mechanics getting in the way of learning to PvP. (also try to understand how the build works with its self, make sure you understand why a certain item/skill/talent is used if you plan to replace it with something similar)
Once you find a good starter setup you like then you need to go learn the basics of every other common setup. You need to know what you are going to be fighting against, Sure not everyone is going to be using them but they will always be focused on core concepts in the PvP system you are in.
Why do this? Because it will help you understand why you just got owned. When you die and you do not understand the PvP system you could attribute your death wrongly and start improving in the wrong way. That is the biggest problem you need to know what went on why you died. Do you get pissed at the tank and the healer when the shitty DPS steals hate and gets raped? That shitty DPS probably would and he would probably remain shitty forever.
I think that is the most important thing to understand and I feel it is exactly how a lot of people take an approach to PvE. Knowledge is always power.
Some other stuff when you’re actually in game
Be consistent, Stick with that one build you picked out and experience every aspect of it. Use that one build as a stepping stone to help you understand the game.
Learn the flow of the game when you’re fighting pay attention to who is doing what try and see if anyone is doing things you read before. Look at the people winning, why are they winning?
Learn not to be a pussy, some of the Best PvPers you will ever see will get crazy kills/wins when they are at 10% HP because they never flinched and never stopped fighting. Only run when you’re dead.
Why can no tutorial be made? Because the PvP scene changes all the time builds get old people find out new ones, if you are just casually playing use what the experts have found.
I hope this helps, there is always a lot more I could talk about but I feel that is pretty general and can help anyone having some time struggling to break into the game, feel free to ask anything else.
------------------------------------------------- Achiever 20.00%, Explorer 86.67%, Killer 60.00%, Socializer 33.33%
PvE is about mental endurance. PvP is about short bursts of energy. It is the difference between slow and fast twitch muscles. Some people are more predisposed to being sprinters and others to being marathon runners. You may have to work harder at one than the other.
I find PvP to be easier than PvE because in PvE I can choose to get in fights I have very little to no chance to win. I take on mobs that are not designed for one person of my level. In PvP I can only fight what is available and the challenge is not always there. Anyone who says they cannot find challenging PvE is full of it. They are not looking for a challenge.
“It's unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money - that's all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot - it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will have enough to pay for something better.”
Originally posted by warmaster670 Originally posted by elocke
Originally posted by elos_rekat First I'll admit to not reading the entire thread so if I repeat the answer my apologies. The answer is actually quite simple. They cannot train you how to pvp because they cannot predict what players will do. PVE mobs have a very limited choice of attacks/methods. It's essentially pacman. Once you learn the pattern, fight over, you win. It's the same reason no company can find every bug. No matter how comprehensive the test plan, some user will go and do something no one ever imagined s/he would do. As a long time PnP DM, I've encountered this more times than I care to remember.
Yeah, but just like driving in real life, you don't really learn how to drive until you just do it and keep doing it. However, you still have to learn the basics and take a test in order to be legally allowed to start driving(experiencing/learning how to drive). So why not the same idea with PVP. Some type of basic test or course via game methods in order to give you a guideline. the basic test is PVE.
Doesnt teach you much, but neither do driving tests, ever watch ____s worst driver? those people all passed there drivers test.
That's not the fault of the test. That's the fault of the drivers not following what they learned. there are things I remember from my test that are really pivotal about driving. Such as dotted yellow lines allowing you to pass on a road or better yet parallel parking which really teaches you how to control a car in a tight spot IF you practice the basics they provide.
@virusdancer - I think WoW does teach you the PVE game by giving you tons of quests ad nauseum as you level. Basically making you have muscle memory with skill rotations. PVP, while I understand it is ten times more flexible should maybe offer something similar in design. Like giving you quests for WSG at level 15 and some type of tip on how to capture a flag while killing a player as well and then rewarding you for it with a bit of xp and gold and an item or 2.
I really do not see WoW actually teaching players how to PvE. Quests simply send you to areas where PvE happens but how you actually play PvE is entirely up to the player. All the learning is done through trial and error and by sharing the results of that trial and error with other players. The game never tells you what skills and rotations of skills to use, the player figures it out on their own (and sometimes doesn't at all). You get a new skill, you use it against a mob to see how it affects it and then try to figure out synergies with other skills you might have. There are no tuturials on 'How To Kill a Murloc', you are simply given some quests to kill murlocs and figuring out how to do it is pretty much up to you.
How can you say that? What is the whole point in giving you 80 levels to learn the game? Giving you skills as you go once you've spent 2 levels with skills they give you more and so on. In that respect, it DOES teach you how to PVE. t doesnt' give you the exact skill rotation to use but it does give you the basics and some quests even go as far as to teaching you how to use certain skills, such as crowd control skills or healing, etc.
This is my whole point. PVP has basics and why aren't they being taught?
If that is your standard for the game 'teaching' the player then WoW spends just as much time teaching you to PvP as it teaches you to PvE. You get 80 levels to learn PvP and every few levels it gives you new skills to use in PvP. It also will sometime teach you to use certain PvP skills like crowd control or healing.
In my experience, you use the exact same skills to PvP as you do to PvE. You need to be aware of your surroundings, communicate with your team, react quickly, know which ability to use when... Practice at one IS practice at the other. There really isn't a whole lot of difference between running to the side to avoid Ony's deep breath and popping your trinket to cancel a stun.
Important facts: 1. Free to Play games are poorly made. 2. Casuals are not all idiots, but idiots call themselves casuals. 3. Great solo and group content are not mutually exclusive, but they suffer when one is shoved into the mold of the other. The same is true of PvP and PvE. 4. Community is more important than you think.
I have to question some of this, whilst I concede that it depends partly upon whatever mmo you play, pvp is far more 'skill' orientated than pve.
Level: Any pvper worth his salt is max level/skill cap, so this is removed as a factor.
Gear: Depends upon mmo but again, any competitive pvper will have maxed out gear/stats so once more this is not a real factor. Any minor discrepancies in gear can be more than made up via player ability.
Opportunity: Is down predominantly to skill. Good players do the jumping/tactically outthinking their opponents.
Class imbalance: Whilst 1v1 in certain games this can be an issue (esspecially in ones with a clearly dilineated rock/paper/scissors system), it is often the case that people bemoan a class being OP simply because they suck and cannot beat said class. Furthermore in general top pvpers are group pvpers (although ofc their are exceptions to the rule) and as such any class imbalances are leveled out.
Cooldowns: Managing CD's and abilities is part of the skill of the pvper..
First of all I never said PvE requires more Skill than PvP. So, Mr. PvPer stop being defensive.
I love PvP that's why I enjoy playing StarCraft 2 currently where everyoen starts with the same chance. I do beat three newbies alone and I do that many times in 3v3 when 2 of my allies leave. Why do I beat them? because I have better gear? or higher level army? that doesn't exist in SC2. I beat them because I am better. Simple as that.
Now, fuck PvE for a second. We're not talking about it.
PvP in MMORPG doesn't require "skill" as much as it requires other things (having no life is one). I challenge you that I can make a 7 year old beat you in the game you are playing. Just mention the game you are playing and I will explain how a monkey can beat you in your game that require "skill".
So, my challenge is on. Mention what MMORPG you play and I can prove that a monkey can beat you.
You want to be good at PVP , there are a lot of requirements to be good at PVP
1 Key bindings and macro , split second counts , unlike pve where there is room for errors .
in pvp split second decisions counts.
2 Min Maxing or FOTM , thats the core basis of a good pvper , if you dont know how to min max yourself .
You are always one step behind other pvpers , and have to wait for info on the net .
3 Jumping hoping moving around , while still executing your attacks (there is no set rotation in pvp unlike pve)
Always keep moving , dont be stationairy even if you are not the target .
Stationairy target is giving your oppenents a easier time , you do not want that in pvp .
4 escape options or know when to cut losses , this is hardest part , you have to know when to fight and when to run .
There is no heroics in pvp , its staying alive that counts , live to frustrate another day .
5 Dont have state of the art computer and connection , example in the netherlands where i used to live i had a ping of max 40 MS . that means i could do 2 actions , where others could do only 1.
This how big difference it good connection and computer makes .
If you really want to be good at PvP..................You must remove the thing that is holding you back........PvE.
You spend far to much time PvEing. Think of pvp as dynamic content that is ever changing.
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
1. Human factor - there is no "one" approach to pvp, unlike pve. Making tutorials very hard to do.
2. New updates/patches/balancing - this will create new FoTM and/or old tactics becomes obsolete. Add more difficulties towards making tutorial for pvp.
You could argue, devs make new tutorial periodically, but why waste resources on that?
Part of the issue would be WoW itself. I had forgotten how bad it is to take a fresh 80 into BGs. Heck, even my older guys are far behind on skill from taking that six month break of the game...
Dest Warlock 33.1K health, 1125 res, 5572 GS
Elem Shaman 28.9K health, 1153 res, 5416 GS
Ret Paladin 31.3K health, 1065 res, 5320 GS
Frost Death Knight 30.5K health, 1010 res, 5308 GS
And then the new 80...
Fury Warrior 20.8K health, 587 res, 3112 GS
The first four guys are outgeared having a mix of Relentless/Wrathful compared to the full Wrathful folks (including weapons). The Warrior is just taking up space in BGs... but in order to gear up, she has to take up that space.
Meanwhile last night, we were facing premade fully geared groups that were simply rolling through the various BGs. For the most part, it turned into hitting Cancel to avoid the rez and helping them farm HKs. To say it was not fun would be an understatement.
It is kind of funny thinking about it. Do they consider that to be fun? I can see where somebody would want better matchmaking from Blizzard in regard to how the BGs are handled. Whether it was based off of separating the premades from the pugs - using a system akin to the built in gear checking Blizzard does to keep the matches more evenly matched - or something along those lines.
I hate how that sounds... I mean, fair? Fair in PvP? Lol... but to an extent, this is not really PvP. They are matches. In world PvP, etc - yep, different story there.
With BGs though... the gear advantage and coordination advantage afforded such groups allows them to farm honor faster and thus maintain the advantage - actually to grow the advantage. Where is the challenge in that? Where is the fun in that?
I suppose that is where it gets into a sort of mentality involved - one borrowed from FPS games... but in FPS games, you do not have the severe gear discrepancy that you do in WoW. It really has no place in pug BGs.
Yes, with what they are looking at doing with Rated BGs... more in line with Arenas etc - different world.
But oh well, just had a random thought on it this morning and figured I would type it out.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
First of all I never said PvE requires more Skill than PvP. So, Mr. PvPer stop being defensive.
I love PvP that's why I enjoy playing StarCraft 2 currently where everyoen starts with the same chance. I do beat three newbies alone and I do that many times in 3v3 when 2 of my allies leave. Why do I beat them? because I have better gear? or higher level army? that doesn't exist in SC2. I beat them because I am better. Simple as that.
Now, fuck PvE for a second. We're not talking about it.
PvP in MMORPG doesn't require "skill" as much as it requires other things (having no life is one). I challenge you that I can make a 7 year old beat you in the game you are playing. Just mention the game you are playing and I will explain how a monkey can beat you in your game that require "skill".
So, my challenge is on. Mention what MMORPG you play and I can prove that a monkey can beat you.
I hope to christ you are simply trolling and not actually being serious....
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
All the PvP games have played have always had an significant advantage to the "serious" player. They have studied the game, played PvP alot, and geared their character to the max for PvP winning. To the extent that any casual player is going to get WTFpwned toot-sweet. Take Eve, 30 seconds in a relatively high end ship to pod death (against a relatively equal apponent, and I've played a lot of PvP in other game). DAoC, superiour group configuration get you stunned, mez and killed in a 30 typical time frame too.
Ironically Warhammer online, a much derided game, broke the PvP mould. Generally your characters has a significant chance of surviving till you work out which button to press; and while good gear made a difference, generally it was far from vitally significant; even for the end game.
So, want to PvP and have fun; Warhammer tier 1 FTW. Sadly, beening good here will not make alot of difference to other games as their game mechanisms favour those that dedicate their game time to that game. While I accept that those that have played for years deserve to have an advantage, in some game where this becomes such uberness (like Eve), I think it becomes very un-fun and such an uphill struggled you are left with the view why try - and that is a shame as then game dies.
Comments
You beat me to it. This is exactly why a game cannot teach you how to pvp and why it is impossible for there to be tutorials on it. How could you expect for a game to somehow teach you what a player is going to do when every single player is different? It's the same with fighting games if you've ever played any. You can beat up on the computer all you want but unless you maybe watch videos studying and just fighting other people in general you will never pick up peoples tendencies or figure out what to do in certain situations.
You don't neccessarily have to be a hardcore to even be a good pvper. It's all about reading an opponent and having quick reactions. And in my opinon(might get flamed for it) being a clicker doesn't neccessarily mean that you'll be at a disadvantage in pvp. It all comes down to reactions and quick thinking which isn't something that pve requires in most cases. Practice makes perfect like everyone else has said but there will never be any instance in which a game can teach you pvp.
I see your point on APB. Probably not the best example.
I also agree with you on the rest. My reference to FPS games was more to address the thought that kids are not exposed to or taught to be competative. Lots of youngsters play FPS games and are highly competative (not to mention RTS like Starcraft 1 & 2) so I don't think that has anything to do with MMOs and PVP in them today.
I really do not see WoW actually teaching players how to PvE. Quests simply send you to areas where PvE happens but how you actually play PvE is entirely up to the player. All the learning is done through trial and error and by sharing the results of that trial and error with other players. The game never tells you what skills and rotations of skills to use, the player figures it out on their own (and sometimes doesn't at all). You get a new skill, you use it against a mob to see how it affects it and then try to figure out synergies with other skills you might have. There are no tuturials on 'How To Kill a Murloc', you are simply given some quests to kill murlocs and figuring out how to do it is pretty much up to you.
Yeah, but just like driving in real life, you don't really learn how to drive until you just do it and keep doing it. However, you still have to learn the basics and take a test in order to be legally allowed to start driving(experiencing/learning how to drive).
So why not the same idea with PVP. Some type of basic test or course via game methods in order to give you a guideline.
How can you say that? What is the whole point in giving you 80 levels to learn the game? Giving you skills as you go once you've spent 2 levels with skills they give you more and so on. In that respect, it DOES teach you how to PVE. t doesnt' give you the exact skill rotation to use but it does give you the basics and some quests even go as far as to teaching you how to use certain skills, such as crowd control skills or healing, etc.
This is my whole point. PVP has basics and why aren't they being taught?
PVE is that basic test/course. See my previous post for a more advanced test/course
Because some tool would camp the tutorial area.
the basic test is PVE.
Doesnt teach you much, but neither do driving tests, ever watch ____s worst driver? those people all passed there drivers test.
Apparently stating the truth in my sig is "trolling"
Sig typo fixed thanks to an observant stragen001.
I see a lot of advice in this thread and most of it is really geared towards PvPers who are looking to become really good at a particular game.
Also just a little issue I had, Humans are predictable and so is PvP.
All you really want to do is pub stomp you’re not looking for perfection; you just want to get the general mindset of what a PvPer should be doing.
Even an uncoordinated baboon can be good at PvP if they know what’s going on.
The most important thing of any PvP is being prepared for it. Win battles before they are ever fought.
I will give you some general advice that should apply to any rpg like PvP environment.
Know your PvP game. The best way to find this out is go to forums about PvP, Figure out what are considered the easy and common builds or setups for w/e you are doing. If you’re new to it you don’t want mechanics getting in the way of learning to PvP. (also try to understand how the build works with its self, make sure you understand why a certain item/skill/talent is used if you plan to replace it with something similar)
Once you find a good starter setup you like then you need to go learn the basics of every other common setup. You need to know what you are going to be fighting against, Sure not everyone is going to be using them but they will always be focused on core concepts in the PvP system you are in.
Why do this? Because it will help you understand why you just got owned. When you die and you do not understand the PvP system you could attribute your death wrongly and start improving in the wrong way. That is the biggest problem you need to know what went on why you died. Do you get pissed at the tank and the healer when the shitty DPS steals hate and gets raped? That shitty DPS probably would and he would probably remain shitty forever.
I think that is the most important thing to understand and I feel it is exactly how a lot of people take an approach to PvE. Knowledge is always power.
Some other stuff when you’re actually in game
Be consistent, Stick with that one build you picked out and experience every aspect of it. Use that one build as a stepping stone to help you understand the game.
Learn the flow of the game when you’re fighting pay attention to who is doing what try and see if anyone is doing things you read before. Look at the people winning, why are they winning?
Learn not to be a pussy, some of the Best PvPers you will ever see will get crazy kills/wins when they are at 10% HP because they never flinched and never stopped fighting. Only run when you’re dead.
Why can no tutorial be made? Because the PvP scene changes all the time builds get old people find out new ones, if you are just casually playing use what the experts have found.
I hope this helps, there is always a lot more I could talk about but I feel that is pretty general and can help anyone having some time struggling to break into the game, feel free to ask anything else.
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Achiever 20.00%, Explorer 86.67%, Killer 60.00%, Socializer 33.33%
EKSA
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I read most of the thread, not the entire thing.
PvE is about mental endurance. PvP is about short bursts of energy. It is the difference between slow and fast twitch muscles. Some people are more predisposed to being sprinters and others to being marathon runners. You may have to work harder at one than the other.
I find PvP to be easier than PvE because in PvE I can choose to get in fights I have very little to no chance to win. I take on mobs that are not designed for one person of my level. In PvP I can only fight what is available and the challenge is not always there. Anyone who says they cannot find challenging PvE is full of it. They are not looking for a challenge.
--John Ruskin
So why not the same idea with PVP. Some type of basic test or course via game methods in order to give you a guideline.
the basic test is PVE.
Doesnt teach you much, but neither do driving tests, ever watch ____s worst driver? those people all passed there drivers test.
That's not the fault of the test. That's the fault of the drivers not following what they learned. there are things I remember from my test that are really pivotal about driving. Such as dotted yellow lines allowing you to pass on a road or better yet parallel parking which really teaches you how to control a car in a tight spot IF you practice the basics they provide.
Because all the Dev are Carebear!
~The only opinion that matters is your own.Everything else is just advice,~
If that is your standard for the game 'teaching' the player then WoW spends just as much time teaching you to PvP as it teaches you to PvE. You get 80 levels to learn PvP and every few levels it gives you new skills to use in PvP. It also will sometime teach you to use certain PvP skills like crowd control or healing.
In my experience, you use the exact same skills to PvP as you do to PvE. You need to be aware of your surroundings, communicate with your team, react quickly, know which ability to use when... Practice at one IS practice at the other. There really isn't a whole lot of difference between running to the side to avoid Ony's deep breath and popping your trinket to cancel a stun.
Important facts:
1. Free to Play games are poorly made.
2. Casuals are not all idiots, but idiots call themselves casuals.
3. Great solo and group content are not mutually exclusive, but they suffer when one is shoved into the mold of the other. The same is true of PvP and PvE.
4. Community is more important than you think.
double post.
First of all I never said PvE requires more Skill than PvP. So, Mr. PvPer stop being defensive.
I love PvP that's why I enjoy playing StarCraft 2 currently where everyoen starts with the same chance. I do beat three newbies alone and I do that many times in 3v3 when 2 of my allies leave. Why do I beat them? because I have better gear? or higher level army? that doesn't exist in SC2. I beat them because I am better. Simple as that.
Now, fuck PvE for a second. We're not talking about it.
PvP in MMORPG doesn't require "skill" as much as it requires other things (having no life is one). I challenge you that I can make a 7 year old beat you in the game you are playing. Just mention the game you are playing and I will explain how a monkey can beat you in your game that require "skill".
So, my challenge is on. Mention what MMORPG you play and I can prove that a monkey can beat you.
You want to be good at PVP , there are a lot of requirements to be good at PVP
1 Key bindings and macro , split second counts , unlike pve where there is room for errors .
in pvp split second decisions counts.
2 Min Maxing or FOTM , thats the core basis of a good pvper , if you dont know how to min max yourself .
You are always one step behind other pvpers , and have to wait for info on the net .
3 Jumping hoping moving around , while still executing your attacks (there is no set rotation in pvp unlike pve)
Always keep moving , dont be stationairy even if you are not the target .
Stationairy target is giving your oppenents a easier time , you do not want that in pvp .
4 escape options or know when to cut losses , this is hardest part , you have to know when to fight and when to run .
There is no heroics in pvp , its staying alive that counts , live to frustrate another day .
5 Dont have state of the art computer and connection , example in the netherlands where i used to live i had a ping of max 40 MS . that means i could do 2 actions , where others could do only 1.
This how big difference it good connection and computer makes .
If you really want to be good at PvP..................You must remove the thing that is holding you back........PvE.
You spend far to much time PvEing. Think of pvp as dynamic content that is ever changing.
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
This is total rubbishe , great pve players are good at pvp and sometimes can even compete with best of them .
Good pvpers are still rubbishe at pve games , Great PVP players excel usually in pve too .
This is cause people use the excuse of pve or pvp , as a excuse , both top end gamers , excel at one thing .
Winning is what counts , no matter its pve or pvp , winning is all that counts .
The rest is just excuses . both groups have too many wanabees . just pve is a lot easier then pvp .
But being bad at PVP doesn´t get you punished that much as being bad at PVE .
1. Human factor - there is no "one" approach to pvp, unlike pve. Making tutorials very hard to do.
2. New updates/patches/balancing - this will create new FoTM and/or old tactics becomes obsolete. Add more difficulties towards making tutorial for pvp.
You could argue, devs make new tutorial periodically, but why waste resources on that?
QFT
And thats all to be said.
Part of the issue would be WoW itself. I had forgotten how bad it is to take a fresh 80 into BGs. Heck, even my older guys are far behind on skill from taking that six month break of the game...
Dest Warlock 33.1K health, 1125 res, 5572 GS
Elem Shaman 28.9K health, 1153 res, 5416 GS
Ret Paladin 31.3K health, 1065 res, 5320 GS
Frost Death Knight 30.5K health, 1010 res, 5308 GS
And then the new 80...
Fury Warrior 20.8K health, 587 res, 3112 GS
The first four guys are outgeared having a mix of Relentless/Wrathful compared to the full Wrathful folks (including weapons). The Warrior is just taking up space in BGs... but in order to gear up, she has to take up that space.
Meanwhile last night, we were facing premade fully geared groups that were simply rolling through the various BGs. For the most part, it turned into hitting Cancel to avoid the rez and helping them farm HKs. To say it was not fun would be an understatement.
It is kind of funny thinking about it. Do they consider that to be fun? I can see where somebody would want better matchmaking from Blizzard in regard to how the BGs are handled. Whether it was based off of separating the premades from the pugs - using a system akin to the built in gear checking Blizzard does to keep the matches more evenly matched - or something along those lines.
I hate how that sounds... I mean, fair? Fair in PvP? Lol... but to an extent, this is not really PvP. They are matches. In world PvP, etc - yep, different story there.
With BGs though... the gear advantage and coordination advantage afforded such groups allows them to farm honor faster and thus maintain the advantage - actually to grow the advantage. Where is the challenge in that? Where is the fun in that?
I suppose that is where it gets into a sort of mentality involved - one borrowed from FPS games... but in FPS games, you do not have the severe gear discrepancy that you do in WoW. It really has no place in pug BGs.
Yes, with what they are looking at doing with Rated BGs... more in line with Arenas etc - different world.
But oh well, just had a random thought on it this morning and figured I would type it out.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
I hope to christ you are simply trolling and not actually being serious....
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
All the PvP games have played have always had an significant advantage to the "serious" player. They have studied the game, played PvP alot, and geared their character to the max for PvP winning. To the extent that any casual player is going to get WTFpwned toot-sweet. Take Eve, 30 seconds in a relatively high end ship to pod death (against a relatively equal apponent, and I've played a lot of PvP in other game). DAoC, superiour group configuration get you stunned, mez and killed in a 30 typical time frame too.
Ironically Warhammer online, a much derided game, broke the PvP mould. Generally your characters has a significant chance of surviving till you work out which button to press; and while good gear made a difference, generally it was far from vitally significant; even for the end game.
So, want to PvP and have fun; Warhammer tier 1 FTW. Sadly, beening good here will not make alot of difference to other games as their game mechanisms favour those that dedicate their game time to that game. While I accept that those that have played for years deserve to have an advantage, in some game where this becomes such uberness (like Eve), I think it becomes very un-fun and such an uphill struggled you are left with the view why try - and that is a shame as then game dies.