As far as I know, WoW is a P2P game that doesn't sell important items, only fluff and vanity (I could be wrong though) and it's doing quite well.
Going F2P with cash shop isn't a magical solution for financial problems either, check the Game List and see how many failed F2P are there.
Last but not least, F2P games tend to have very bad communities, so quantity over quality isn't the answer for me, at least not as a consumer.
WoW is the only one that does so well. The other titles... might be profitable, but aren't doing that well in NA/EU. I explain my theory about this in my post :P
My point is: the subscription model works, WoW is proof. If it doesn't work for other games, it's the game's fault, not the system's.
Ive always liked the subscription based model. I like to know that i can access all the content at one price instead of paying as i go to access more.
I buy 3 month and 6 month subs sometimes. Because at certain times during the year i have more money then i do at other times. So i buy alot of access at one time and dont have to worry about it later when im broke. That works for me. If i was progressing in a game then all the sudden to move forward in content, i have to buy the content pack, and that happened to be at a time when my funds were low.. Id be frustrated.
And my attitude, right or wrong, toward f2p vs p2p games is that p2p are a better value to me. And better games in general. F2P are way more pricey imo. And the games under this banner have alot to be desired. When Lotro went with its current pricing model, i decided i wasnt going to play it. Id been thinking about giving it another shot before that, but the idea of having the f2p community in it kinda ruined it for me.
Ive always felt that P2P games contained the more mature player. Since you need a CC or a Debit Card to access. Some people will say that WoW proves that wrong. But i see it different, because ive always liked the WoW community. The kids that play do get annoying, but ive also meet teen players that are more mature then some of the adult players. And alot of times better players in general.
If WoW went F2P with a content purchase model and subscriptions that still required you to buy some things to have the same access as the prior 14.99 price had. I wouldnt play. If they gave people another option but let the 14.99 sub stays the same, id probably stick around. But id feel different about the game. Just like i now do towards Lotro.
So i guess im against doing away with the subscription all together. If all MMORPGSs did this i guess my many years playing in this genre would come to an abrupt halt. Id stick with my other gaming passion, FPS.
As far as I know, WoW is a P2P game that doesn't sell important items, only fluff and vanity (I could be wrong though) and it's doing quite well.
Going F2P with cash shop isn't a magical solution for financial problems either, check the Game List and see how many failed F2P are there.
Last but not least, F2P games tend to have very bad communities, so quantity over quality isn't the answer for me, at least not as a consumer.
WoW is the only one that does so well. The other titles... might be profitable, but aren't doing that well in NA/EU. I explain my theory about this in my post :P
My point is: the subscription model works, WoW is proof. If it doesn't work for other games, it's the game's fault, not the system's.
I agree with this.
The MMOs that are failing as P2P MMOs are the ones that simply aren't worth the $15 or whatever a month to keep playing. The only thing that is proof of, is that those particular MMOs do not offer enough content worth the subscription fee for players to stick around.
I'd say the major problem with most MMOs these days is that theyr'e simply too shallow and linear. They overfocus on one main path of gameplay, in which most players blaze through. There's pretty much no attention given to creating game mechanics to allow players to 'create their own content', so they have to rely on developers to churn out content for them... which is why so many people get bored and leave, because there simply isn't enough of it. That, or the game mechanics are simply just flawed and not enjoyable.
My point is: the subscription model works, WoW is proof. If it doesn't work for other games, it's the game's fault, not the system's.
Hah. That's where I disagree. I think the current subscription model has something to do in WoW's success.
Blizzard released a quality product in 2003, and created a giant initial success in the P2P market in the West. Since then, every P2P games following WoW has been released with fewer features, shallow gameplay or were simply awful at release under mostly the same pricing model: 15$/month-ish. I don't think it's wise, since no one likes to spend 15$/month when you don't know if you're going to play as much. And no one likes to keep paying 15$/month when you're going to share time between multiple titles.
They should change the subscription model for pay-as-you-go (like they do for cellphones or toll roads). This concept exist in Asia and I believe is responsible for having multiple games being popular instead of one major behemoth and multiple minor success. Then you don't feel like you're wasting 15$/month; you're just keeping this credit for another time.
That's a shop vs sub balance issue. A shop with a pay as you go option should sell content, things like bags and character slots. Not a iwin button. The straight f2p games do that shit and I hate it.
Yeah I think I agree with all you've said in the thread so far.
And the item shop certainly needs to just be lateral progression (unlocking a class or character slot), and not vertical progression (buying the +999 Vorpal Sword).
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
My point is: the subscription model works, WoW is proof. If it doesn't work for other games, it's the game's fault, not the system's.
Hah. That's where I disagree. I think the current subscription model has something to do in WoW's success.
Blizzard released a quality product in 2003, and created a giant initial success in the P2P market in the West. Since then, every P2P games following WoW has been released with fewer features, shallow gameplay or were simply awful at release under mostly the same pricing model: 15$/month-ish. I don't think it's wise, since no one likes to spend 15$/month when you don't know if you're going to play as much. And no one likes to keep paying 15$/month when you're going to share time between multiple titles.
They should change the subscription model for pay-as-you-go (like they do for cellphones or toll roads). This concept exist in Asia and I believe is responsible for having multiple games being popular instead of one major behemoth and multiple minor success. Then you don't feel like you're wasting 15$/month; you're just keeping this credit for another time.
You do realize most cell phones and the phone company in general is moving away from the pay as you go model? Secondly, there is an old saying, be careful what you wish for because you may get it. Pay as you go for MMO's, you get X number of hours a month for Y dollars, but if you go over X you pay a large overage charge. Does that sound familiar? Bad Cell phone plans.
You do realize most cell phones and the phone company in general is moving away from the pay as you go model? Secondly, there is an old saying, be careful what you wish for because you may get it. Pay as you go for MMO's, you get X number of hours a month for Y dollars, but if you go over X you pay a large overage charge. Does that sound familiar? Bad Cell phone plans.
I don't know I don't get that feeling about cellphone companies. I need 2 cellphones for some valid unrelated reasons, one with a monthly payment plan for unlimited regular use and one that I only need to 'top up' once every 90 days. I can't complain this is a perfect fit for me.
As for payment plans in video games of x$ for X amount of time, then y$ if you go over I'd trust the free market to react properly. But that's not what I see when I look at the hourly rates for P2P MMOs in Asia.
You do realize most cell phones and the phone company in general is moving away from the pay as you go model? Secondly, there is an old saying, be careful what you wish for because you may get it. Pay as you go for MMO's, you get X number of hours a month for Y dollars, but if you go over X you pay a large overage charge. Does that sound familiar? Bad Cell phone plans.
I tried looking up some statistics and articles about this but I'm personally seeing more pay-as-you go plans and phone models being offered by both major retailers like Target and small mom-and-pop retailers. So from personal observation, most cell phones and the phone company are moving towards the pay as you go model. Still, I wanted to find some articles and in a brief search, found:
I tried looking up some statistics and articles about this but I'm personally seeing more pay-as-you go plans and phone models being offered by both major retailers like Target and small mom-and-pop retailers. So from personal observation, most cell phones and the phone company are moving towards the pay as you go model. Still, I wanted to find some articles and in a brief search, found:
Interesting. I think he gets that feeling because when you are shopping for a cellphone provider, the vendors are trying very hard to get you on a monthly plan. I believe monthly plans are much better for customer retention, where subscribers are less likely to switch provider if they find a better plan or terminate their subscription if they don't need the service anymore.
Hmmm. That's a nice parallel to the MMO subscription world ;-)
I'm strongly against different payment plans or item shops of any kind except for fluff and vanity items. I want a fixed value for everyone, and same content for everyone.
Why? What's the difference between you paying a sub and someone that unlocks zones as they go? Why be against something like that? I know many people that simply don't sub to games because they don't play enough to warrant a subscription. They would however play the game at their own pace and unlock content as they level. If you think about it paying 15 bucks a month just for access even if you log in for 30 minutes that month is pretty stupid.
The problem you propose can be easily solved with a pay per day system. Instead of charging $15 a month, charge $0.50 per day.
How about 25 cents per play session like we had in the olden days with the video game arcades? Or better yet, 25 cents when your toon dies to continue playing?
Then cap the amount of money that can be spent per month, make all items in the shop tradeable, and all items in the shop craftable by players as well to compete with devs to keep the prices honest. That would be a win for the customer, developer/publisher and investors. How bout that?
Until then..it's just so much easier to just not play and not worry/deal with it. especially when theres 100 versions of the same game we played 10 years ago.
See you in the dream.. The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
I prefer subscription based games. DISCLAIMER: If you like f2p or pay as you go content that is fine. Different games you will play differently and hence different payment methods will suite each game better. Trying to say 1 payment method should work for all games is a load of crap. Rest of my post is purely my personal opinion on the sort of games I want and what payment methods I prefer.
One problem with paying for content as you go is it discourages the developer from going back and re-polishing their content. Why would they redo content that 90% of players have already payed for? there's no money in it. Far better for them to create new content that everyone will pay for.
Another problem is it moves the companies focus away from retention of players. Those current players aren't currently bringing in much money, a brand new player will go through plenty of money buying the default content that everyone has so as not to be left out as well as any new content that brought them in.
While their is a small amount of overlapp where developers will fix old problems to get the new players in that isn't the main way to get new players into your game. New content that you can advertise is the best way to get new players into the game and thats what these games focus on.
And when the game has stretched itself too far, added in far more content than it can handle with a shakey foundation that hasn't been properly fixed since the start. They build a new game with loads of new content that you have to buy your way through. This payment method is normal for single player games and has it's place there. For MMO's I want something that will last and that doesn't happen unless you pay them for maintanance in the form of a subscription.
A mixture can solve the above problem but introduces it's own problems. Players will choose whichever payment option gives them what they want for as cheap as possible. If the game has expansions constantly added on and a player wants to buy them all they will choose a subscription which covers all. If a player only wants to stick to certain content and doesn't want to keep moving around with all the new stuff the best payment option for them is a one time content purchase.
This goes directly against how a developer would develop their game for maximum profit. They wouldn't want to keep making large amounts of new content for a subscribers who get it all for constant cost no matter how much they do. They also wouldn't bother to improve that old content for a guy who's never gonna pay for it again, better to make new better content to try and draw him away from the old stuff he's playing.
Another option is tiered subscription where different people pay different subscriptions for different content. As in gold membership and silver and diamond, platinum, Crystal, Emerald, Ruby, Saphire, pearl etc. If your wondering why that list got long it's based off the titles of all the pokemon video games. Which I think is an example of where it could work, paying a subscription for each region where you can could live in multiple regions or just one would be awesome. It would also be profitable and wouldn't have the problems of money going to the wrong areas as with the combined system.
A tiered subscription could however go horribly wrong if the devs tried to make it into a system where you needed as many of the subscriptions active at once to compete. Having a player who pays less or no money not be able to reach the highest level is one thing but if it extends upwards as well (players who pay more than normal have superpowers) then it can end badly.
Remember this is just my opinion. Different people look for different things in a game so different payment options will be better for them.
I prefer subs, if you got buyable content, you may have to change groups, or boot people, if they haven't bought the dungeon you decided you want to hit next....IT can happen in a sub game also, but its far less likely, as someone that is fine paying a sub, usually will buy a expansion also.
Its a hassle, I prefer to know what I am paying and have no cash shop, except for vanity stuff, and I prefer not having that even.
MMORPG subs are about the best entertainment value their is, I think its silly to complain about something that is such a value/return for your money....If your a kid without a job, cut some grass, shovel some snow, clean a car....Cutting 1 yard will give you cash for 1 month of an mmo.
Comments
My point is: the subscription model works, WoW is proof. If it doesn't work for other games, it's the game's fault, not the system's.
Ive always liked the subscription based model. I like to know that i can access all the content at one price instead of paying as i go to access more.
I buy 3 month and 6 month subs sometimes. Because at certain times during the year i have more money then i do at other times. So i buy alot of access at one time and dont have to worry about it later when im broke. That works for me. If i was progressing in a game then all the sudden to move forward in content, i have to buy the content pack, and that happened to be at a time when my funds were low.. Id be frustrated.
And my attitude, right or wrong, toward f2p vs p2p games is that p2p are a better value to me. And better games in general. F2P are way more pricey imo. And the games under this banner have alot to be desired. When Lotro went with its current pricing model, i decided i wasnt going to play it. Id been thinking about giving it another shot before that, but the idea of having the f2p community in it kinda ruined it for me.
Ive always felt that P2P games contained the more mature player. Since you need a CC or a Debit Card to access. Some people will say that WoW proves that wrong. But i see it different, because ive always liked the WoW community. The kids that play do get annoying, but ive also meet teen players that are more mature then some of the adult players. And alot of times better players in general.
If WoW went F2P with a content purchase model and subscriptions that still required you to buy some things to have the same access as the prior 14.99 price had. I wouldnt play. If they gave people another option but let the 14.99 sub stays the same, id probably stick around. But id feel different about the game. Just like i now do towards Lotro.
So i guess im against doing away with the subscription all together. If all MMORPGSs did this i guess my many years playing in this genre would come to an abrupt halt. Id stick with my other gaming passion, FPS.
I agree with this.
The MMOs that are failing as P2P MMOs are the ones that simply aren't worth the $15 or whatever a month to keep playing. The only thing that is proof of, is that those particular MMOs do not offer enough content worth the subscription fee for players to stick around.
I'd say the major problem with most MMOs these days is that theyr'e simply too shallow and linear. They overfocus on one main path of gameplay, in which most players blaze through. There's pretty much no attention given to creating game mechanics to allow players to 'create their own content', so they have to rely on developers to churn out content for them... which is why so many people get bored and leave, because there simply isn't enough of it. That, or the game mechanics are simply just flawed and not enjoyable.
Hah. That's where I disagree. I think the current subscription model has something to do in WoW's success.
Blizzard released a quality product in 2003, and created a giant initial success in the P2P market in the West. Since then, every P2P games following WoW has been released with fewer features, shallow gameplay or were simply awful at release under mostly the same pricing model: 15$/month-ish. I don't think it's wise, since no one likes to spend 15$/month when you don't know if you're going to play as much. And no one likes to keep paying 15$/month when you're going to share time between multiple titles.
They should change the subscription model for pay-as-you-go (like they do for cellphones or toll roads). This concept exist in Asia and I believe is responsible for having multiple games being popular instead of one major behemoth and multiple minor success. Then you don't feel like you're wasting 15$/month; you're just keeping this credit for another time.
Yeah I think I agree with all you've said in the thread so far.
And the item shop certainly needs to just be lateral progression (unlocking a class or character slot), and not vertical progression (buying the +999 Vorpal Sword).
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
You do realize most cell phones and the phone company in general is moving away from the pay as you go model? Secondly, there is an old saying, be careful what you wish for because you may get it. Pay as you go for MMO's, you get X number of hours a month for Y dollars, but if you go over X you pay a large overage charge. Does that sound familiar? Bad Cell phone plans.
I don't know I don't get that feeling about cellphone companies. I need 2 cellphones for some valid unrelated reasons, one with a monthly payment plan for unlimited regular use and one that I only need to 'top up' once every 90 days. I can't complain this is a perfect fit for me.
As for payment plans in video games of x$ for X amount of time, then y$ if you go over I'd trust the free market to react properly. But that's not what I see when I look at the hourly rates for P2P MMOs in Asia.
I tried looking up some statistics and articles about this but I'm personally seeing more pay-as-you go plans and phone models being offered by both major retailers like Target and small mom-and-pop retailers. So from personal observation, most cell phones and the phone company are moving towards the pay as you go model. Still, I wanted to find some articles and in a brief search, found:
http://www.wirelessweek.com/News/2010/10/Carriers-All-Prepaid-Brands-Seeing-Growth-Sprint/
http://www.wirelessweek.com/News/2010/04/Policy-and-Industry-Two-Thirds-New-Subscribers-Prepaid-Research/
Interesting. I think he gets that feeling because when you are shopping for a cellphone provider, the vendors are trying very hard to get you on a monthly plan. I believe monthly plans are much better for customer retention, where subscribers are less likely to switch provider if they find a better plan or terminate their subscription if they don't need the service anymore.
Hmmm. That's a nice parallel to the MMO subscription world ;-)
How about 25 cents per play session like we had in the olden days with the video game arcades? Or better yet, 25 cents when your toon dies to continue playing?
Maybe they should use a hybrid model.
In China you pay by min, In US you pay monthy subscription.
In Taiwan, we have the option to either pay monthly subscription or pay by minutes.
Then cap the amount of money that can be spent per month, make all items in the shop tradeable, and all items in the shop craftable by players as well to compete with devs to keep the prices honest. That would be a win for the customer, developer/publisher and investors. How bout that?
Until then..it's just so much easier to just not play and not worry/deal with it. especially when theres 100 versions of the same game we played 10 years ago.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
I prefer subscription based games. DISCLAIMER: If you like f2p or pay as you go content that is fine. Different games you will play differently and hence different payment methods will suite each game better. Trying to say 1 payment method should work for all games is a load of crap. Rest of my post is purely my personal opinion on the sort of games I want and what payment methods I prefer.
One problem with paying for content as you go is it discourages the developer from going back and re-polishing their content. Why would they redo content that 90% of players have already payed for? there's no money in it. Far better for them to create new content that everyone will pay for.
Another problem is it moves the companies focus away from retention of players. Those current players aren't currently bringing in much money, a brand new player will go through plenty of money buying the default content that everyone has so as not to be left out as well as any new content that brought them in.
While their is a small amount of overlapp where developers will fix old problems to get the new players in that isn't the main way to get new players into your game. New content that you can advertise is the best way to get new players into the game and thats what these games focus on.
And when the game has stretched itself too far, added in far more content than it can handle with a shakey foundation that hasn't been properly fixed since the start. They build a new game with loads of new content that you have to buy your way through. This payment method is normal for single player games and has it's place there. For MMO's I want something that will last and that doesn't happen unless you pay them for maintanance in the form of a subscription.
A mixture can solve the above problem but introduces it's own problems. Players will choose whichever payment option gives them what they want for as cheap as possible. If the game has expansions constantly added on and a player wants to buy them all they will choose a subscription which covers all. If a player only wants to stick to certain content and doesn't want to keep moving around with all the new stuff the best payment option for them is a one time content purchase.
This goes directly against how a developer would develop their game for maximum profit. They wouldn't want to keep making large amounts of new content for a subscribers who get it all for constant cost no matter how much they do. They also wouldn't bother to improve that old content for a guy who's never gonna pay for it again, better to make new better content to try and draw him away from the old stuff he's playing.
Another option is tiered subscription where different people pay different subscriptions for different content. As in gold membership and silver and diamond, platinum, Crystal, Emerald, Ruby, Saphire, pearl etc. If your wondering why that list got long it's based off the titles of all the pokemon video games. Which I think is an example of where it could work, paying a subscription for each region where you can could live in multiple regions or just one would be awesome. It would also be profitable and wouldn't have the problems of money going to the wrong areas as with the combined system.
A tiered subscription could however go horribly wrong if the devs tried to make it into a system where you needed as many of the subscriptions active at once to compete. Having a player who pays less or no money not be able to reach the highest level is one thing but if it extends upwards as well (players who pay more than normal have superpowers) then it can end badly.
Remember this is just my opinion. Different people look for different things in a game so different payment options will be better for them.
Into the breach meatbags
I prefer subs, if you got buyable content, you may have to change groups, or boot people, if they haven't bought the dungeon you decided you want to hit next....IT can happen in a sub game also, but its far less likely, as someone that is fine paying a sub, usually will buy a expansion also.
Its a hassle, I prefer to know what I am paying and have no cash shop, except for vanity stuff, and I prefer not having that even.
MMORPG subs are about the best entertainment value their is, I think its silly to complain about something that is such a value/return for your money....If your a kid without a job, cut some grass, shovel some snow, clean a car....Cutting 1 yard will give you cash for 1 month of an mmo.