If you get in a MMORPG, you have to accept that at some point you'll have to group to progress further, thats the narure of the beast
Why? Why does it HAVE to be this way? Why is it absolutely mandatory in every single MMO for it to be this way?
It isn't. It's just how most MMOs are designed now, because they all want to cash in on the Wow format, Soloers are not asking for group content to be removed, nor do they always solo. But there is no reason, NONE, why it must be that only grouping has a progressive endgame.
Well, here is an answer you won't like:
If SwampRob wants to change the industry, he has to get a set then build what he wants. If the market supports your vision to the highest degree, the industry will change. Dreaming on a forum won't change it.
Those are good examples of game content but it's not end game content for solo players leaving crafting out of the mix.
Questing, Solo lower level content, Complete achievements and Daily questing (if available)= These are usually done and mostly covered throughout the gameplay itself and in the terms of questing and going for lower level mobs thats like telling a PvPer to gank low level players or Raiders to (using lotro example) keep running the great barrows and killing Sambrog.
Farming monsters for mats, items or dough, Crafting, gathering and chatting, Farming (as in tobacco or other things), Planting, Playing the market, Trading, Get rich = These are all part of the game economy and as such in the Crafting terminology as it's being used in this thread.
PvP and Duel = i don't understand why you added these as they are not SOLO content.
Exploration, Role Play, Explore other systems depending on the game, Collect mounts/pets and Collect social clothing = although these are or can be classed as solo content in some games you'll find that suggesting this to a maxed out endgame level player as his/her endgame content is like telling a pvper that dueling is his end game content.
these are all part of the game economy and as such in the Crafting terminology as it's being used in this thread.
Those are all things that are part of the solo endgame. You apparently do not like what they offer the solo player. What you apparently want is to be able to kill bosses and get loot. Guess what? You can do that as a solo player at endgame in any game too! There are plenty of things to do as a solo player. You just choose not to do them. You view others as being superior and are unable to see the rest of the game because of it. it is also aimed at everyone who plays the game.. therefore not aimed at endgame for solo players.
Questing, Solo lower level content, Complete achievements and Daily questing (if available)
These are done for the whole game but are also part of the endgame content. If you don't like that quests and daily quests are part of the solo endgame, that's fine. But they are so obviously part of it.
Soloing lower level content is also part of the solo experience. Going back and attempting to do difficult things solo is a great way to play solo. Often times there are rare loot drops or other things that you can get by playing this way. It's actually really fun to do these things solo. And it is part of the endgame. also available to ALL players and not endgame content for solo players.
Exploration, Role Play, Explore other systems depending on the game, Collect mounts/pets and Collect social clothing
All of those things can be done throughout the game but are also a big part of the endgame. They are part of the things available to solo players. yet again, it's designed for all players and not endgame for solo players.
Raiding is endgame aimed directly at those who wish to group up and continue progessing their character through gaining items not available anywhere else.. zero content or progression similar to this aimed for those who prefer to solo. and (not aimed at you directly) before anyone starts saying things like "if they did similar instances for solo players there wouldn't be anyone wanting to group up for the full raids" i have this to say, how many times have you seen in in game chat people asking for group members for a raid and getting irritated because no one wants to or said raid leader getting irritated because there is no one who is the specific class they're looking for available? and for those who say there shouldn't be anything similar for solo players because you have to earn what you get from raids, i have this to say to them, everyone pays the same sub fee so why shouldn't those who want to solo get something similar or would you (again not aimed directly at you) be annoyed with it because you wouldn't be exclusive for having that highly sought after item and others not have it.
As for PvP, you do not have to be in a group to participate in PvP. You can simply go out and kill another player in most games. You do not have to be in a group to participate in a duel. I have no idea why anyone would think that this type of PvP was group oriented, but you seem to be arguing it in your post. i agree, you don't need to group to PvP, however it does take more than player, same with dueling.. there are people who work odd hours and varying shift for work who would like to play the game they enjoy but can't because the time they get on said game is when the server is dead.
You seem to be stuck on the idea that because the activity exists below endgame, that means that that activity is not an endgame activity. Guess what? Grouping and raiding happen before endgame. grouping happens before endgame but the raiding in question for this thread is the end game raids which contain the final steps of character progression through the items not available anywhere else. According to the logic used so often in your post, that would make grouping and raiding not an endgame activity after all. grouping isn't endgame content, raiding in the manner it's mentioned in this thread is. For whatever reason, you fail to see all these other options as endgame activities. they can and sometimes are endgame activities but this thread is aimed at the endgame content being available for raiders and groupers ONLY and there being no true endgame progression content for those who prefer to solo. The truth is, all these other options are endgame activities that are available to solo players. they are end game content available to everyone, solo and groupers, raids are only available to groupers as end game character progression, there is no similar content for soloers, thats what this thread is discussing.
it is also aimed at everyone who plays the game.. therefore not aimed at endgame for solo players.
also available to ALL players and not endgame content for solo players.
yet again, it's designed for all players and not endgame for solo players.
they are end game content available to everyone, solo and groupers, raids are only available to groupers as end game character progression, there is no similar content for soloers, thats what this thread is discussing.
Am I the only one who finds these comments weird? "Everyone can do it so its not just for solo players..". Um. What?! So like, if people group then they can't do solo content? How does that work exactly? Surely if the person who was in a group earlier goes off alone they become a solo player? Or is a solo player a special type of player that the game can somehow differentiate, throwing up a flag the moment he joins a group to ensure he never again is able to solo. Um.. Wow.. My mind is blown.
If you get in a MMORPG, you have to accept that at some point you'll have to group to progress further, thats the narure of the beast
Why? Why does it HAVE to be this way? Why is it absolutely mandatory in every single MMO for it to be this way?
It isn't. It's just how most MMOs are designed now, because they all want to cash in on the Wow format, Soloers are not asking for group content to be removed, nor do they always solo. But there is no reason, NONE, why it must be that only grouping has a progressive endgame.
Well, here is an answer you won't like:
If SwampRob wants to change the industry, he has to get a set then build what he wants. If the market supports your vision to the highest degree, the industry will change. Dreaming on a forum won't change it.
So....you agree then that it should change? Or do you feel soloers do not deserve an endgame? In any MMO?
And to possibly save time, by endgame I mean meaningful progression, not repeatable dailies or some such crap.
Should they have a endgame like the groupers do? Or should solo players just hit cap, finish out their quests and re-roll?
Im a firm believer in massively-multiplayer, as the genre suggests. If I was,lets say, a hermet and preferred to be socially alone while gaming, I'd probably subscriber to SISPOG (Socially Inept Single-Player Online Game) site.
Edit: So no...single-player rewards and expectations in a massively-multiplatyer environment should not be as easy to come by.
Should they have a endgame like the groupers do? Or should solo players just hit cap, finish out their quests and re-roll?
Im a firm believer in massively-multiplayer, as the genre suggests. If I was,lets say, a hermet and preferred to be socially alone while gaming, I'd probably subscriber to SISPOG (Socially Inept Single-Player Online Game) site.
Edit: So no...single-player rewards and expectations in a massively-multiplatyer environment should not be as easy to come by.
Good thing the age of accessibility is phasing out players with attitudes like yours then.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
Should they have a endgame like the groupers do? Or should solo players just hit cap, finish out their quests and re-roll?
Im a firm believer in massively-multiplayer, as the genre suggests. If I was,lets say, a hermet and preferred to be socially alone while gaming, I'd probably subscriber to SISPOG (Socially Inept Single-Player Online Game) site.
Edit: So no...single-player rewards and expectations in a massively-multiplatyer environment should not be as easy to come by.
Good thing the age of accessibility is phasing out players with attitudes like yours then.
And the age of welfare gaming and entitlement gaming is here for players like you?
Should they have a endgame like the groupers do? Or should solo players just hit cap, finish out their quests and re-roll?
Im a firm believer in massively-multiplayer, as the genre suggests. If I was,lets say, a hermet and preferred to be socially alone while gaming, I'd probably subscriber to SISPOG (Socially Inept Single-Player Online Game) site.
Edit: So no...single-player rewards and expectations in a massively-multiplatyer environment should not be as easy to come by.
Good thing the age of accessibility is phasing out players with attitudes like yours then.
And the age of welfare gaming and entitlement gaming is here for players like you?
Entitlement gaming seems much more conducive to people who think grinding raids for months on end is somehow increasing their social skillset as illustrated by your all or nothing view point.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
Should they have a endgame like the groupers do? Or should solo players just hit cap, finish out their quests and re-roll?
Im a firm believer in massively-multiplayer, as the genre suggests. If I was,lets say, a hermet and preferred to be socially alone while gaming, I'd probably subscriber to SISPOG (Socially Inept Single-Player Online Game) site.
Edit: So no...single-player rewards and expectations in a massively-multiplatyer environment should not be as easy to come by.
Good thing the age of accessibility is phasing out players with attitudes like yours then.
And the age of welfare gaming and entitlement gaming is here for players like you?
Entitlement gaming seems much more conducive to people who think grinding raids for months on end is somehow increasing their social skillset as illustrated by your all or nothing view point.
Im not gonna get sucked into your circular personal attack strategy, so will stay on topic with my origonal view:
Originally posted by Cik_Asalin
Originally posted by Rockgod99
Should they have a endgame like the groupers do? Or should solo players just hit cap, finish out their quests and re-roll?
Im a firm believer in massively-multiplayer, as the genre suggests. If I was,lets say, a hermet and preferred to be socially alone while gaming, I'd probably subscriber to SISPOG (Socially Inept Single-Player Online Game) site.
Edit: So no...single-player rewards and expectations in a massively-multiplatyer environment should not be as easy to come by.
Should they have a endgame like the groupers do? Or should solo players just hit cap, finish out their quests and re-roll?
Im a firm believer in massively-multiplayer, as the genre suggests. If I was,lets say, a hermet and preferred to be socially alone while gaming, I'd probably subscriber to SISPOG (Socially Inept Single-Player Online Game) site.
Edit: So no...single-player rewards and expectations in a massively-multiplatyer environment should not be as easy to come by.
Good thing the age of accessibility is phasing out players with attitudes like yours then.
And the age of welfare gaming and entitlement gaming is here for players like you?
Entitlement gaming seems much more conducive to people who think grinding raids for months on end is somehow increasing their social skillset as illustrated by your all or nothing view point.
Im not gonna get sucked into your circular personal attack strategy, so will stay on topic with my origonal view:
Originally posted by Cik_Asalin
Originally posted by Rockgod99
Should they have a endgame like the groupers do? Or should solo players just hit cap, finish out their quests and re-roll?
Im a firm believer in massively-multiplayer, as the genre suggests. If I was,lets say, a hermet and preferred to be socially alone while gaming, I'd probably subscriber to SISPOG (Socially Inept Single-Player Online Game) site.
Edit: So no...single-player rewards and expectations in a massively-multiplatyer environment should not be as easy to come by.
Right so basically games should continue to be designed so that everyone is funnelled into the end game raiding societies players like yourself seem to be denfending for no other reason than you play because you want to socialize? Basically takes me back to that circular viewpoint that makes me wonder about the viewpoint of someone who feels I should be forced into a type of gameplay because they enjoy it to the exlcusion of what I may like.
The shame of it all is you folks work better at keeping solo players soloing than in showing them anything of redeeming value about socializing in game with you all.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
As the industry and gamers mature, I think the smart developers will see the vast potential customer base is greater than what it was 10 years ago. People look at some of the first MMOs and scream "that's how it's supposed to be done!" The Ford Model T in 1908 only had 4 cylinders. Is that how cars ar supposed to be? The first TV was black and white. Is that how TV is meant to be watched? Telephones first used hardlines. Should we not be using cell phones then?
Besides, to me and many others, it's more HEROIC to take on a situation single handedly instead of bringing a small army of people. I feel like I accomplished more because: 1) I didn't die, 2) I know that I was one that did the deathblow. That right their should entitle me to a nice reward.
Simply put, if I'm locked out of content because I don't group, then I shouldn't have to pay as much for my subscription fee as those that see more content and get better rewards. Seems like common sense to me. I'm not going to pump money into a game so some elitist jerk can enjoy all of the benefits while I only get a portion of it.
Should they have a endgame like the groupers do? Or should solo players just hit cap, finish out their quests and re-roll?
Im a firm believer in massively-multiplayer, as the genre suggests. If I was,lets say, a hermet and preferred to be socially alone while gaming, I'd probably subscriber to SISPOG (Socially Inept Single-Player Online Game) site.
Edit: So no...single-player rewards and expectations in a massively-multiplatyer environment should not be as easy to come by.
Good thing the age of accessibility is phasing out players with attitudes like yours then.
And the age of welfare gaming and entitlement gaming is here for players like you?
Entitlement gaming seems much more conducive to people who think grinding raids for months on end is somehow increasing their social skillset as illustrated by your all or nothing view point.
Im not gonna get sucked into your circular personal attack strategy, so will stay on topic with my origonal view:
Originally posted by Cik_Asalin
Originally posted by Rockgod99
Should they have a endgame like the groupers do? Or should solo players just hit cap, finish out their quests and re-roll?
Im a firm believer in massively-multiplayer, as the genre suggests. If I was,lets say, a hermet and preferred to be socially alone while gaming, I'd probably subscriber to SISPOG (Socially Inept Single-Player Online Game) site.
Edit: So no...single-player rewards and expectations in a massively-multiplatyer environment should not be as easy to come by.
Right so basically games should continue to be designed so that everyone is funnelled into the end game raiding societies players like yourself seem to be denfending for no other reason than you play because you want to socialize? Basically takes me back to that circular viewpoint that makes me wonder about the viewpoint of someone who feels I should be forced into a type of gameplay because they enjoy it to the exlcusion of what I may like.
The shame of it all is you folks work better at keeping solo players soloing than in showing them anything of redeeming value about socializing in game with you all.
Dude. It's called massively-multiplayer for a reason. I'm not a fan of redundent, static, PvE-centric ecosystems of revisting the same scenario and boss night after night. So I'm with ya there. And I'm not playing any mmo's right now (though I would play eve if I could break away from the persona of being a ship) because they all feed you the same shitty redundent garbage play session after play sesson.
But getting back on topic, Im hoping with CCP's new MMO and perhaps Rift or Tera, that there might be less of the pve-centric redundency that is available and more player-centric ecosystems that favor massively-multiplayer game-play. And again, I'm a firm believer in massively-multiplayer, as the genre suggests. If I was, lets say, a hermet and preferred to be socially alone while gaming, to be wholey self-relient and without multiplayer influence, I'd probably subscriber to something like SISPOG (Socially Inept Single-Player Online Game) site.
As the industry and gamers mature, I think the smart developers will see the vast potential customer base is greater than what it was 10 years ago. People look at some of the first MMOs and scream "that's how it's supposed to be done!" The Ford Model T in 1908 only had 4 cylinders. Is that how cars ar supposed to be? The first TV was black and white. Is that how TV is meant to be watched? Telephones first used hardlines. Should we not be using cell phones then?
Besides, to me and many others, it's more HEROIC to take on a situation single handedly instead of bringing a small army of people. I feel like I accomplished more because: 1) I didn't die, 2) I know that I was one that did the deathblow. That right their should entitle me to a nice reward.
Simply put, if I'm locked out of content because I don't group, then I shouldn't have to pay as much for my subscription fee as those that see more content and get better rewards. Seems like common sense to me. I'm not going to pump money into a game so some elitist jerk can enjoy all of the benefits while I only get a portion of it.
I like your stance and tend to agree with it as a solo player myself, but I have to likewise say that I don't see anything wrong with the content as it is generated I am just surprised by the people who think that folks who prefer to solo for some reason should be punished by the present lack of compelling solo end game content simply because we like to play a different way than they do.
There is nothing wrong with enjoying the cooperation and companionship of grouping or the reards gained from it any more than there is anything wrong with wanting to have things to do as a solo player who has reached the level cap.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
A story from along time ago. Around the time FFXI had launched. I was excited. I couldnt wait to get my hands on it. I loved the FF franchise.
So I got the game and was happy with it. I played alot. I leveled up thru the newb stage and eventually hit the wall where i couldnt advanced unless i grouped. So i grouped. My play style left me at a dis advantage though. I explored alot. So when it came to being at the same level that the majority of other players were at i was kinda behind. Shouldnt be a problem though, since people have to level their sub classes. But it was.
I started to feel the hit. Id log in, and start lfg. Sometimes id get one quick, other times id be looking for an hour or two just sitting in town. The feeling that i couldnt progress started to overwhelm me at times. Causing me to log off. I thought, man if i could just solo for awhile till i found a group id be having way more fun and probably wouldnt mind the wait. I tried to, but it wasnt worth it. Anything you could kill didnt give anything for experience. So i started a new race. The little guys. To be a Whm/Blm. Figured id get more groups that way. But i just didnt like that.
I quit. WoW was getting close to launch, and it looked just as awesome. I decided to wait for it.
I would of never done that though, had i been able to solo during the times when finding a group was difficult.
But right when WoW launched, i only played 3 months into it. I was already experiencing my first MMO burn out when it launched. It was time for a break.
When i went back after that, i really enjoyed the game more then the 3 months i had spent in it previously. I felt like it had the right mix. I could solo and progress, and find a group and have group play. I loved the party mechanics, but wished they had the same party skill system FFXI had, since i really liked it. But i couldnt have everything.
So forward to today. WoW became more solo friendly, due to blizzard needing to make certain quests that required groups easier for soloist to play in lower levels because the amount of people around to party with has diminished, since so many are at end game. On top of the fact it was already easily soloable to us more hardcore mmo's player.
So i read this thread topic when it first appeared. I thought it was silly. You guys made me rethink. Heres my opinion.
Of course all players should have an end game. Doesnt matter how they get to it. So a person wants to solo, why punish him? Because he isnt playing the game the way some of you think it should be played? Thats crazy. Sure, the solo player wouldnt touch FFXI, but me being a more grouping kinda guy, had learned from FFXI that if you only have grouping in a game, if you try to force that on me, im out. I dont think my progress should have to be hinged on the group.
Alot of you seem mad at people that want to solo. Saying they ruined the market. Games arent as good as they could be because of them! I think thats kinda an extreme view. Thinking they should be punished because they solo'd to level cap is extreme. It wont happen. And it shouldnt.
You cant dictate how people want to have fun. You cant dictate their opionions. Ive been seeing people on these boards say that the mass of players in WoW are blind or are sheep and need to be educated as to what a good game is. But they're having fun. I had a boss like that one time. He said kids now a days dont know what good music is and need to be educated. He hated the main stream. But he never got that its the main stream because its whats people want to listen to. Its what people want to play.
If its fun to someone they dont need to be educated to see the errors in their ways. If someone wants to solo he shouldnt be punished because a group of people dont agree with that. Cut him off from end game? Alienate him? Because people who group are better? In your opinion?
Its the dictators mentality. If they arent having fun the way im having fun, PUNISH THEM! They're BLIND! I must SAVE THEM! I HATE them! The choices they make are WRONG! They're BRAINWASHED!!!!!!
Anyways, to end, I like being able to choose how i progress. I dont want to wait around for a group. I dont think i should have to craft while i wait, like i did alot in FFXI, or fish. If i want to play the game and experience the content, I shouldnt have to be at the mercy of 4 other players to do so. And if i want to solo, I shouldnt be cut off of endgame. Just to make a small group of people feel like they choose the better path. That they are better players. And that they're opinions matter more then everyone elses, and most importantly, mine.
I really don't care. I raid to fight difficult bosses, to have fun coordinating with guildies, to be challenged. If you only raid for the gear, then that is probably why you find this to be an issue. For me, gear is a means to an end, either increasing my damage or healing capabilities so that I can contribute more to a raid. Doesn't affect me any if the solo player gets some nice shiny gear.
I think the best way to handle solo endgame gear, if its equivalent to group / raid gear, is to set it so that the solo gear can only be used while doing solo (and/or small group) content. That way the solo player can have his shiny loot, but won't interfere with or marginalize the efforts of the folk who put in more time doing raids.
You run into the same problem at end game that you run into with any part of something being soloable. so this is basically a solo vs group argument.
In my opinion if something is soloable why spend 20 mins getting 5 people together to do something if you can just run up and kill it all by yourself. Something has to make you want/need to get people together. Because to get people together requires some kind of work, as in shouting out to get people together, get them all in one spot. get them set up, get them working together to kill the mob.
If your by yourself you know your skills. you know your limits. You have almost everything under control. In a group any number of unknown factors comes in to play that make it harder and therefore much less traveled.
Any player will if they could do something by themselves in 5 mins instead of getting a group together that takes 20 mins to an hour. Therefore in my eyes if something is soloable it is no longer groupable.
For example lets put this into play:
lets say i want to take down Chala the plant
Now Chala the plant is easily soloable but i want to do things as a group. Now Chala is the bane of everyones existances and has wiped out tribes of people, massacred numerous small animals. You get the point.
So i start to get a group together to take out this bane of everyones exsistance.
Me: Looking for a group to take out Chala the plant
Player1: What class are you?
Me: Warrior
Player1: You do know Chala is easily soloable right?
Me: Yeah but i still want to get a group together to fight as a team.
Player1: Dude seriously noones going to group for something you can do by yourself. Just kill it man.
Me: Well i don't like kililng everything by myself all the time.
Player1. Too bad man noones going to kill it for you if you can do it by yourself.
Me: This is suppose to be a social game, your suppose to play with other people.
Player1: Really man your not going to find anyone to kill something that can be done solo.
Me: sigh
Now offering up engame for soloers can be done but if you want epic style fights, your going to have to get a group together. I don't remember any war style movie that didn't rely on someone else to help the hero in the end. At least in my eyes.
TL;DR If you make something both groupable and soloable, you just made it soloable as noone will work to get a group together to do something that someone can do soloable. There needs to be incentives or requirements in order for a group of people to get together.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
A story from along time ago. Around the time FFXI had launched. I was excited. I couldnt wait to get my hands on it. I loved the FF franchise.
So I got the game and was happy with it. I played alot. I leveled up thru the newb stage and eventually hit the wall where i couldnt advanced unless i grouped. So i grouped. My play style left me at a dis advantage though. I explored alot. So when it came to being at the same level that the majority of other players were at i was kinda behind. Shouldnt be a problem though, since people have to level their sub classes. But it was.
I started to feel the hit. Id log in, and start lfg. Sometimes id get one quick, other times id be looking for an hour or two just sitting in town. The feeling that i couldnt progress started to overwhelm me at times. Causing me to log off. I thought, man if i could just solo for awhile till i found a group id be having way more fun and probably wouldnt mind the wait. I tried to, but it wasnt worth it. Anything you could kill didnt give anything for experience. So i started a new race. The little guys. To be a Whm/Blm. Figured id get more groups that way. But i just didnt like that.
I quit. WoW was getting close to launch, and it looked just as awesome. I decided to wait for it.
I would of never done that though, had i been able to solo during the times when finding a group was difficult.
But right when WoW launched, i only played 3 months into it. I was already experiencing my first MMO burn out when it launched. It was time for a break.
When i went back after that, i really enjoyed the game more then the 3 months i had spent in it previously. I felt like it had the right mix. I could solo and progress, and find a group and have group play. I loved the party mechanics, but wished they had the same party skill system FFXI had, since i really liked it. But i couldnt have everything.
So forward to today. WoW became more solo friendly, due to blizzard needing to make certain quests that required groups easier for soloist to play in lower levels because the amount of people around to party with has diminished, since so many are at end game. On top of the fact it was already easily soloable to us more hardcore mmo's player.
So i read this thread topic when it first appeared. I thought it was silly. You guys made me rethink. Heres my opinion.
Of course all players should have an end game. Doesnt matter how they get to it. So a person wants to solo, why punish him? Because he isnt playing the game the way some of you think it should be played? Thats crazy. Sure, the solo player wouldnt touch FFXI, but me being a more grouping kinda guy, had learned from FFXI that if you only have grouping in a game, if you try to force that on me, im out. I dont think my progress should have to be hinged on the group.
Alot of you seem mad at people that want to solo. Saying they ruined the market. Games arent as good as they could be because of them! I think thats kinda an extreme view. Thinking they should be punished because they solo'd to level cap is extreme. It wont happen. And it shouldnt.
You cant dictate how people want to have fun. You cant dictate their opionions. Ive been seeing people on these boards say that the mass of players in WoW are blind or are sheep and need to be educated as to what a good game is. But they're having fun. I had a boss like that one time. He said kids now a days dont know what good music is and need to be educated. He hated the main stream. But he never got that its the main stream because its whats people want to listen to. Its what people want to play.
If its fun to someone they dont need to be educated to see the errors in their ways. If someone wants to solo he shouldnt be punished because a group of people dont agree with that. Cut him off from end game? Alienate him? Because people who group are better? In your opinion?
Its the dictators mentality. If they arent having fun the way im having fun, PUNISH THEM! They're BLIND! I must SAVE THEM! I HATE them! The choices they make are WRONG! They're BRAINWASHED!!!!!!
Anyways, to end, I like being able to choose how i progress. I dont want to wait around for a group. I dont think i should have to craft while i wait, like i did alot in FFXI, or fish. If i want to play the game and experience the content, I shouldnt have to be at the mercy of 4 other players to do so. And if i want to solo, I shouldnt be cut off of endgame. Just to make a small group of people feel like they choose the better path. That they are better players. And that they're opinions matter more then everyone elses, and most importantly, mine.
Amen to this in my opinion with the design of games and the lackof growth in so many I marvel at why it's so easy for most gamers to simply ask "do you like what I like exactly as I like it?" and if the answer is no they immediately go in to cut your throat out.
The bottom line is to grow games need people to play,sub, and spend and the devs don't care who does this and likewise the players shouldn't either. If you play a game that is especially good at developing group content ubt also has compelling solo content to sustain a healthy poulation of solo players then the group players benefit from the solo players subscribing too just like I will likely get content that is available simply because the game has a haelthy population of group players.
I don't like WOW and find it boring but you touched on a good point, in WOW you were never really far away from doing what you wanted to do and more importantly the game wasn't designed to funnel players into grouping and such so as Neiken stated you either didn't wait long for a group or at the least had a brisk pace of content to enjoy while waiting for the group.
I can't state enough that even though I prefer to solo I'm not here to declare that playstyle superior to grouping just saying that if our games are taking there time and trying to serve a wider range of player for longer we all benefit.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
You run into the same problem at end game that you run into with any part of something being soloable. so this is basically a solo vs group argument.
In my opinion if something is soloable why spend 20 mins getting 5 people together to do something if you can just run up and kill it all by yourself. Something has to make you want/need to get people together. Because to get people together requires some kind of work, as in shouting out to get people together, get them all in one spot. get them set up, get them working together to kill the mob.
If your by yourself you know your skills. you know your limits. You have almost everything under control. In a group any number of unknown factors comes in to play that make it harder and therefore much less traveled.
Any player will if they could do something by themselves in 5 mins instead of getting a group together that takes 20 mins to an hour. Therefore in my eyes if something is soloable it is no longer groupable.
For example lets put this into play:
lets say i want to take down Chala the plant
Now Chala the plant is easily soloable but i want to do things as a group. Now Chala is the bane of everyones existances and has wiped out tribes of people, massacred numerous small animals. You get the point.
So i start to get a group together to take out this bane of everyones exsistance.
Me: Looking for a group to take out Chala the plant
Player1: What class are you?
Me: Warrior
Player1: You do know Chala is easily soloable right?
Me: Yeah but i still want to get a group together to fight as a team.
Player1: Dude seriously noones going to group for something you can do by yourself. Just kill it man.
Me: Well i don't like kililng everything by myself all the time.
Player1. Too bad man noones going to kill it for you if you can do it by yourself.
Me: This is suppose to be a social game, your suppose to play with other people.
Player1: Really man your not going to find anyone to kill something that can be done solo.
Me: sigh
Now offering up engame for soloers can be done but if you want epic style fights, your going to have to get a group together. I don't remember any war style movie that didn't rely on someone else to help the hero in the end. At least in my eyes.
TL;DR If you make something both groupable and soloable, you just made it soloable as noone will work to get a group together to do something that someone can do soloable. There needs to be incentives or requirements in order for a group of people to get together.
Another good point made that does do a decent job in defense of the content being separate but I think most solo players (at least the reasonable ones) will tell you that this point is correct and most aren't going to expect that for the reason you stated. The content can't be the same nor should the rewards be the same (unless the content is equally hard to solo as to group which I feel is possible) because then as you say people will simply tell people "dude you know that's soloable right?"
Which even as a solo player has always bothered me, LOTRO epic quest line recently added a mechanic where most of the quest line is soloable and I hear people ask for group for it then people tell them "it's soloable" the response is "yeah I know but I like to group" and immediately folks begin to try and change his mind and convince him he's wasting his time etc.. That bothers me about as much as the idea that there shouldn't be compelling end game content for all playstyles desired.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
I think solo players should be able to access all the end game content and play through it by themselves.
The dungeon (or whatever) would adjust in structure to give the solo player a reasonable chance of success.
This would allow players who can't group easily (for whatever reason) the chance to play the entire game.
However, to encourage the social aspects of grouping, etc, I'd simply make the solo version of the dungeons take significantly longer to complete than the group version. For example, a dungeon could be designed for a group of 10 players to run through in 2.5 hours, 5 players in 5 hours and 1 player in 10 hours. That way it makes sense to group if you can, but you're not left out in the cold if you can't.
Aryas
Playing: Ableton Live 8 ~ ragequitcancelsubdeletegamesmashcomputerkillself ~
I don't get the "soloer should be able to go through and get everything the raider does" mentality. I really don't
I am not a fan of raiding. I rarely participate in it unless I'm basically begged into it because some friends or guildies simply have to fill a spot. It just isn't my thing. I don't feel betrayed or left out because of it. It's my choice. I simply don't find the raiding aspect fun.
No biggie. Life goes on and hopefully the game offers things I do enjoy like smaller group dungeons or solo content. I'm all for a game having more options but I don't get this mentality that I should be able to go through and obtain the same items a raider does.
So what? Why would I even need it if I'm not raiding anyways? Let them have their end game. All the more power to them if that's what they enjoy. Why not have different endgame content for all play styles rather than everything must be accomplishable by a soloer as well as a raider?
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
If you want to only define so-called end game as only raiding and pvp, then why would anyone want to play an MMO. If that is all they have to offer, there isn't much reason to even be a part of an MMO. Frankly, I think that characters should never stop progressing be that their "stats" or their "gear". I also do not think that players should be forced into such narrow minded path choices on how they get there. If players wish to raid, so be it. If they wish to PvP, so be it. If they wish to solo in some form or another then so be it. The whole "you must re-roll" metallity is plainly only being pushed by some elitists that don't like soloers. They never take the time to understand the reason people solo.....one of them is BECAUSE these elitists.
We groupers don't want soloers to go away, we just want to make sure that groups stay around. In my last post i detailed why everything shouldn't be soloable. I'm all for giving everyone something to do. What i'm not for is giving everything the option to be either solo or grouped.
I know why soloers want solo base content because it's usually down to a few key features and none of them have to do with staying away from one another. There are plenty of people you can group with that aren't elitist.
Soloers tend to solo because they:
Dont have the time to group and just want to do something quick
Can't find a group due to either class/level or what have you restriction
Don't feel like having to structure their play time around others.
Don't want to sit around all day with the LFG flag up.
If there are other reasons i'm interested but as it stands now thats the list i have. I'm all for having content for both, but the content needs to be different. There needs to be incentives and advantages over solo in my opinion to warrant a group otherwise why group at all if you can get nearly the same thing from doing something solo? Grouping in nature takes longer and requires more coordination in management then soloing ever will. If your the leader (not neccesarly the one with the star next to your name) you gotta get 4-5 people to do the right thing at the right time to succeed on top of what you normally do by yourself.
This is of course just my view on this from the group end.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
We groupers don't want soloers to go away, we just want to make sure that groups stay around. In my last post i detailed why everything shouldn't be soloable. I'm all for giving everyone something to do. What i'm not for is giving everything the option to be either solo or grouped.
I know why soloers want solo base content because it's usually down to a few key features and none of them have to do with staying away from one another. There are plenty of people you can group with that aren't elitist.
Soloers tend to solo because they:
Dont have the time to group and just want to do something quick
Can't find a group due to either class/level or what have you restriction
Don't feel like having to structure their play time around others.
Don't want to sit around all day with the LFG flag up.
If there are other reasons i'm interested but as it stands now thats the list i have. I'm all for having content for both, but the content needs to be different. There needs to be incentives and advantages over solo in my opinion to warrant a group otherwise why group at all if you can get nearly the same thing from doing something solo? Grouping in nature takes longer and requires more coordination in management then soloing ever will. If your the leader (not neccesarly the one with the star next to your name) you gotta get 4-5 people to do the right thing at the right time to succeed on top of what you normally do by yourself.
This is of course just my view on this from the group end.
I think grouping already has incentives over solo play at certain times. You get better loot from dungeons, which you always have to group to do, unless a higher level player is running you thru it to get the gear you want out of it. Its an incentive however. I think its enough. I dont think that either solo or group players should get special benefits from either play style. Giving either one an advantage makes the other less viable. Then your unintentionally forcing people to do one or the other, as not doing it gives you a dis advantage. No one wants a dis advantage. No matter how small it may be.
What some of ya guys are saying that no one wants to group. I think people still do. I love grouping. I dont think i should have an advantage because of that. And id be upset if people were giving incentives to solo as well. Thinking that grouping is going to die is a little naive IMO.
I dont think content needs to be to different for both. If you split up groupers and soloers over all experience i think that would have a negative effect. Though if a soloer skipped content that he needed to group for, thats his decision. It shouldnt effect end game. And end game in itself is usually designed around group play. So the soloer becomes a grouper after all. There are systems that will still allow a solo player to progress after level cap in some games though.
I could be wrong. Maybe MMO's will become over run with solo players. I just dont see it happening.
Ive been in to many Hogger raids with level 1 alts just for fun. To many guild outings to collect materials to benefit the guild over all. To many groups to just quests, to see where people are getting the idea that grouping is dead, or dieing.
I agree with one thing though. I dont think EVERYTHING should be either solo or group able. I dont think they should adjust difficulty. If you dont want to group, dont. But you miss out on group activities that would be beneficial to your character.
The solo players pay their $15 bucks/month just like everyone else.
They pay their $15 for a game they know going in is a multiplayer game and will incorporate elements of multiplay. If they think they're going to be able to solo every little piece of content then they only have themselves to blame.
Comments
Well, here is an answer you won't like:
If SwampRob wants to change the industry, he has to get a set then build what he wants. If the market supports your vision to the highest degree, the industry will change. Dreaming on a forum won't change it.
Am I the only one who finds these comments weird? "Everyone can do it so its not just for solo players..". Um. What?! So like, if people group then they can't do solo content? How does that work exactly? Surely if the person who was in a group earlier goes off alone they become a solo player? Or is a solo player a special type of player that the game can somehow differentiate, throwing up a flag the moment he joins a group to ensure he never again is able to solo. Um.. Wow.. My mind is blown.
So....you agree then that it should change? Or do you feel soloers do not deserve an endgame? In any MMO?
And to possibly save time, by endgame I mean meaningful progression, not repeatable dailies or some such crap.
Im a firm believer in massively-multiplayer, as the genre suggests. If I was,lets say, a hermet and preferred to be socially alone while gaming, I'd probably subscriber to SISPOG (Socially Inept Single-Player Online Game) site.
Edit: So no...single-player rewards and expectations in a massively-multiplatyer environment should not be as easy to come by.
Good thing the age of accessibility is phasing out players with attitudes like yours then.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
And the age of welfare gaming and entitlement gaming is here for players like you?
Entitlement gaming seems much more conducive to people who think grinding raids for months on end is somehow increasing their social skillset as illustrated by your all or nothing view point.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
Im not gonna get sucked into your circular personal attack strategy, so will stay on topic with my origonal view:
Right so basically games should continue to be designed so that everyone is funnelled into the end game raiding societies players like yourself seem to be denfending for no other reason than you play because you want to socialize? Basically takes me back to that circular viewpoint that makes me wonder about the viewpoint of someone who feels I should be forced into a type of gameplay because they enjoy it to the exlcusion of what I may like.
The shame of it all is you folks work better at keeping solo players soloing than in showing them anything of redeeming value about socializing in game with you all.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
As the industry and gamers mature, I think the smart developers will see the vast potential customer base is greater than what it was 10 years ago. People look at some of the first MMOs and scream "that's how it's supposed to be done!" The Ford Model T in 1908 only had 4 cylinders. Is that how cars ar supposed to be? The first TV was black and white. Is that how TV is meant to be watched? Telephones first used hardlines. Should we not be using cell phones then?
Besides, to me and many others, it's more HEROIC to take on a situation single handedly instead of bringing a small army of people. I feel like I accomplished more because: 1) I didn't die, 2) I know that I was one that did the deathblow. That right their should entitle me to a nice reward.
Simply put, if I'm locked out of content because I don't group, then I shouldn't have to pay as much for my subscription fee as those that see more content and get better rewards. Seems like common sense to me. I'm not going to pump money into a game so some elitist jerk can enjoy all of the benefits while I only get a portion of it.
"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor
Dude. It's called massively-multiplayer for a reason. I'm not a fan of redundent, static, PvE-centric ecosystems of revisting the same scenario and boss night after night. So I'm with ya there. And I'm not playing any mmo's right now (though I would play eve if I could break away from the persona of being a ship) because they all feed you the same shitty redundent garbage play session after play sesson.
But getting back on topic, Im hoping with CCP's new MMO and perhaps Rift or Tera, that there might be less of the pve-centric redundency that is available and more player-centric ecosystems that favor massively-multiplayer game-play. And again, I'm a firm believer in massively-multiplayer, as the genre suggests. If I was, lets say, a hermet and preferred to be socially alone while gaming, to be wholey self-relient and without multiplayer influence, I'd probably subscriber to something like SISPOG (Socially Inept Single-Player Online Game) site.
I like your stance and tend to agree with it as a solo player myself, but I have to likewise say that I don't see anything wrong with the content as it is generated I am just surprised by the people who think that folks who prefer to solo for some reason should be punished by the present lack of compelling solo end game content simply because we like to play a different way than they do.
There is nothing wrong with enjoying the cooperation and companionship of grouping or the reards gained from it any more than there is anything wrong with wanting to have things to do as a solo player who has reached the level cap.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
A story from along time ago. Around the time FFXI had launched. I was excited. I couldnt wait to get my hands on it. I loved the FF franchise.
So I got the game and was happy with it. I played alot. I leveled up thru the newb stage and eventually hit the wall where i couldnt advanced unless i grouped. So i grouped. My play style left me at a dis advantage though. I explored alot. So when it came to being at the same level that the majority of other players were at i was kinda behind. Shouldnt be a problem though, since people have to level their sub classes. But it was.
I started to feel the hit. Id log in, and start lfg. Sometimes id get one quick, other times id be looking for an hour or two just sitting in town. The feeling that i couldnt progress started to overwhelm me at times. Causing me to log off. I thought, man if i could just solo for awhile till i found a group id be having way more fun and probably wouldnt mind the wait. I tried to, but it wasnt worth it. Anything you could kill didnt give anything for experience. So i started a new race. The little guys. To be a Whm/Blm. Figured id get more groups that way. But i just didnt like that.
I quit. WoW was getting close to launch, and it looked just as awesome. I decided to wait for it.
I would of never done that though, had i been able to solo during the times when finding a group was difficult.
But right when WoW launched, i only played 3 months into it. I was already experiencing my first MMO burn out when it launched. It was time for a break.
When i went back after that, i really enjoyed the game more then the 3 months i had spent in it previously. I felt like it had the right mix. I could solo and progress, and find a group and have group play. I loved the party mechanics, but wished they had the same party skill system FFXI had, since i really liked it. But i couldnt have everything.
So forward to today. WoW became more solo friendly, due to blizzard needing to make certain quests that required groups easier for soloist to play in lower levels because the amount of people around to party with has diminished, since so many are at end game. On top of the fact it was already easily soloable to us more hardcore mmo's player.
So i read this thread topic when it first appeared. I thought it was silly. You guys made me rethink. Heres my opinion.
Of course all players should have an end game. Doesnt matter how they get to it. So a person wants to solo, why punish him? Because he isnt playing the game the way some of you think it should be played? Thats crazy. Sure, the solo player wouldnt touch FFXI, but me being a more grouping kinda guy, had learned from FFXI that if you only have grouping in a game, if you try to force that on me, im out. I dont think my progress should have to be hinged on the group.
Alot of you seem mad at people that want to solo. Saying they ruined the market. Games arent as good as they could be because of them! I think thats kinda an extreme view. Thinking they should be punished because they solo'd to level cap is extreme. It wont happen. And it shouldnt.
You cant dictate how people want to have fun. You cant dictate their opionions. Ive been seeing people on these boards say that the mass of players in WoW are blind or are sheep and need to be educated as to what a good game is. But they're having fun. I had a boss like that one time. He said kids now a days dont know what good music is and need to be educated. He hated the main stream. But he never got that its the main stream because its whats people want to listen to. Its what people want to play.
If its fun to someone they dont need to be educated to see the errors in their ways. If someone wants to solo he shouldnt be punished because a group of people dont agree with that. Cut him off from end game? Alienate him? Because people who group are better? In your opinion?
Its the dictators mentality. If they arent having fun the way im having fun, PUNISH THEM! They're BLIND! I must SAVE THEM! I HATE them! The choices they make are WRONG! They're BRAINWASHED!!!!!!
Anyways, to end, I like being able to choose how i progress. I dont want to wait around for a group. I dont think i should have to craft while i wait, like i did alot in FFXI, or fish. If i want to play the game and experience the content, I shouldnt have to be at the mercy of 4 other players to do so. And if i want to solo, I shouldnt be cut off of endgame. Just to make a small group of people feel like they choose the better path. That they are better players. And that they're opinions matter more then everyone elses, and most importantly, mine.
I really don't care. I raid to fight difficult bosses, to have fun coordinating with guildies, to be challenged. If you only raid for the gear, then that is probably why you find this to be an issue. For me, gear is a means to an end, either increasing my damage or healing capabilities so that I can contribute more to a raid. Doesn't affect me any if the solo player gets some nice shiny gear.
I think the best way to handle solo endgame gear, if its equivalent to group / raid gear, is to set it so that the solo gear can only be used while doing solo (and/or small group) content. That way the solo player can have his shiny loot, but won't interfere with or marginalize the efforts of the folk who put in more time doing raids.
You run into the same problem at end game that you run into with any part of something being soloable. so this is basically a solo vs group argument.
In my opinion if something is soloable why spend 20 mins getting 5 people together to do something if you can just run up and kill it all by yourself. Something has to make you want/need to get people together. Because to get people together requires some kind of work, as in shouting out to get people together, get them all in one spot. get them set up, get them working together to kill the mob.
If your by yourself you know your skills. you know your limits. You have almost everything under control. In a group any number of unknown factors comes in to play that make it harder and therefore much less traveled.
Any player will if they could do something by themselves in 5 mins instead of getting a group together that takes 20 mins to an hour. Therefore in my eyes if something is soloable it is no longer groupable.
For example lets put this into play:
lets say i want to take down Chala the plant
Now Chala the plant is easily soloable but i want to do things as a group. Now Chala is the bane of everyones existances and has wiped out tribes of people, massacred numerous small animals. You get the point.
So i start to get a group together to take out this bane of everyones exsistance.
Me: Looking for a group to take out Chala the plant
Player1: What class are you?
Me: Warrior
Player1: You do know Chala is easily soloable right?
Me: Yeah but i still want to get a group together to fight as a team.
Player1: Dude seriously noones going to group for something you can do by yourself. Just kill it man.
Me: Well i don't like kililng everything by myself all the time.
Player1. Too bad man noones going to kill it for you if you can do it by yourself.
Me: This is suppose to be a social game, your suppose to play with other people.
Player1: Really man your not going to find anyone to kill something that can be done solo.
Me: sigh
Now offering up engame for soloers can be done but if you want epic style fights, your going to have to get a group together. I don't remember any war style movie that didn't rely on someone else to help the hero in the end. At least in my eyes.
TL;DR If you make something both groupable and soloable, you just made it soloable as noone will work to get a group together to do something that someone can do soloable. There needs to be incentives or requirements in order for a group of people to get together.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
Amen to this in my opinion with the design of games and the lackof growth in so many I marvel at why it's so easy for most gamers to simply ask "do you like what I like exactly as I like it?" and if the answer is no they immediately go in to cut your throat out.
The bottom line is to grow games need people to play,sub, and spend and the devs don't care who does this and likewise the players shouldn't either. If you play a game that is especially good at developing group content ubt also has compelling solo content to sustain a healthy poulation of solo players then the group players benefit from the solo players subscribing too just like I will likely get content that is available simply because the game has a haelthy population of group players.
I don't like WOW and find it boring but you touched on a good point, in WOW you were never really far away from doing what you wanted to do and more importantly the game wasn't designed to funnel players into grouping and such so as Neiken stated you either didn't wait long for a group or at the least had a brisk pace of content to enjoy while waiting for the group.
I can't state enough that even though I prefer to solo I'm not here to declare that playstyle superior to grouping just saying that if our games are taking there time and trying to serve a wider range of player for longer we all benefit.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
Another good point made that does do a decent job in defense of the content being separate but I think most solo players (at least the reasonable ones) will tell you that this point is correct and most aren't going to expect that for the reason you stated. The content can't be the same nor should the rewards be the same (unless the content is equally hard to solo as to group which I feel is possible) because then as you say people will simply tell people "dude you know that's soloable right?"
Which even as a solo player has always bothered me, LOTRO epic quest line recently added a mechanic where most of the quest line is soloable and I hear people ask for group for it then people tell them "it's soloable" the response is "yeah I know but I like to group" and immediately folks begin to try and change his mind and convince him he's wasting his time etc.. That bothers me about as much as the idea that there shouldn't be compelling end game content for all playstyles desired.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
I think solo players should be able to access all the end game content and play through it by themselves.
The dungeon (or whatever) would adjust in structure to give the solo player a reasonable chance of success.
This would allow players who can't group easily (for whatever reason) the chance to play the entire game.
However, to encourage the social aspects of grouping, etc, I'd simply make the solo version of the dungeons take significantly longer to complete than the group version. For example, a dungeon could be designed for a group of 10 players to run through in 2.5 hours, 5 players in 5 hours and 1 player in 10 hours. That way it makes sense to group if you can, but you're not left out in the cold if you can't.
Aryas
Playing: Ableton Live 8
~ ragequitcancelsubdeletegamesmashcomputerkillself ~
I don't get the "soloer should be able to go through and get everything the raider does" mentality. I really don't
I am not a fan of raiding. I rarely participate in it unless I'm basically begged into it because some friends or guildies simply have to fill a spot. It just isn't my thing. I don't feel betrayed or left out because of it. It's my choice. I simply don't find the raiding aspect fun.
No biggie. Life goes on and hopefully the game offers things I do enjoy like smaller group dungeons or solo content. I'm all for a game having more options but I don't get this mentality that I should be able to go through and obtain the same items a raider does.
So what? Why would I even need it if I'm not raiding anyways? Let them have their end game. All the more power to them if that's what they enjoy. Why not have different endgame content for all play styles rather than everything must be accomplishable by a soloer as well as a raider?
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
If you want to only define so-called end game as only raiding and pvp, then why would anyone want to play an MMO. If that is all they have to offer, there isn't much reason to even be a part of an MMO. Frankly, I think that characters should never stop progressing be that their "stats" or their "gear". I also do not think that players should be forced into such narrow minded path choices on how they get there. If players wish to raid, so be it. If they wish to PvP, so be it. If they wish to solo in some form or another then so be it. The whole "you must re-roll" metallity is plainly only being pushed by some elitists that don't like soloers. They never take the time to understand the reason people solo.....one of them is BECAUSE these elitists.
Let's party like it is 1863!
We groupers don't want soloers to go away, we just want to make sure that groups stay around. In my last post i detailed why everything shouldn't be soloable. I'm all for giving everyone something to do. What i'm not for is giving everything the option to be either solo or grouped.
I know why soloers want solo base content because it's usually down to a few key features and none of them have to do with staying away from one another. There are plenty of people you can group with that aren't elitist.
Soloers tend to solo because they:
Dont have the time to group and just want to do something quick
Can't find a group due to either class/level or what have you restriction
Don't feel like having to structure their play time around others.
Don't want to sit around all day with the LFG flag up.
If there are other reasons i'm interested but as it stands now thats the list i have. I'm all for having content for both, but the content needs to be different. There needs to be incentives and advantages over solo in my opinion to warrant a group otherwise why group at all if you can get nearly the same thing from doing something solo? Grouping in nature takes longer and requires more coordination in management then soloing ever will. If your the leader (not neccesarly the one with the star next to your name) you gotta get 4-5 people to do the right thing at the right time to succeed on top of what you normally do by yourself.
This is of course just my view on this from the group end.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
I think grouping already has incentives over solo play at certain times. You get better loot from dungeons, which you always have to group to do, unless a higher level player is running you thru it to get the gear you want out of it. Its an incentive however. I think its enough. I dont think that either solo or group players should get special benefits from either play style. Giving either one an advantage makes the other less viable. Then your unintentionally forcing people to do one or the other, as not doing it gives you a dis advantage. No one wants a dis advantage. No matter how small it may be.
What some of ya guys are saying that no one wants to group. I think people still do. I love grouping. I dont think i should have an advantage because of that. And id be upset if people were giving incentives to solo as well. Thinking that grouping is going to die is a little naive IMO.
I dont think content needs to be to different for both. If you split up groupers and soloers over all experience i think that would have a negative effect. Though if a soloer skipped content that he needed to group for, thats his decision. It shouldnt effect end game. And end game in itself is usually designed around group play. So the soloer becomes a grouper after all. There are systems that will still allow a solo player to progress after level cap in some games though.
I could be wrong. Maybe MMO's will become over run with solo players. I just dont see it happening.
Ive been in to many Hogger raids with level 1 alts just for fun. To many guild outings to collect materials to benefit the guild over all. To many groups to just quests, to see where people are getting the idea that grouping is dead, or dieing.
I agree with one thing though. I dont think EVERYTHING should be either solo or group able. I dont think they should adjust difficulty. If you dont want to group, dont. But you miss out on group activities that would be beneficial to your character.
I can only think of one response to the question.
The solo players pay their $15 bucks/month just like everyone else.
They pay their $15 for a game they know going in is a multiplayer game and will incorporate elements of multiplay. If they think they're going to be able to solo every little piece of content then they only have themselves to blame.