Sounds good, can't wait to try it out. More power to them for actually thinking about how to place Dungeons in GW2 .
I can't think of a single MMO that didn't have some form of dungeon in it, so I'm not exactly praising them for that. It's good they're trying to think outside the box, but they're missing a great opportunity to draw in real/oldschool MMORPG fans by having some real dungeons, rather than instanced ones.
I agree it would be cool. Maybe even a mix of instanced dungeons and real dungeons. It adds a lot to exploring if there were real, not instanced dungeons. Nothing would be cooler than venturing into a dark dungeon and suddenly, some other player shows up. But honestly, Im so MMO deprived that even those instanced ones sound very good to me xD.
I never thought I'd live to see the day when "seeing another player in my dungeon" would be considered novel or cool. So many modern "MMO" gamers haven't ever experienced it, yet they bash the concept because they don't know any better. Take it from people who HAVE seen both worlds, dungeons are much better when they aren't instanced. Unless of course, you don't like the multiplayer aspects of MMOs (in which case I ask, why are you playing them?)
You seem to think instanced and solo mean the same thing. You are wrong. You can do instancing and still have other people. Only people you already know, usually a dedicated, pre set group of real life friends. You simply will not run into random people in a dungeon that way. Which is a part of a dynamic world/socializing This does not mean all the things you seem to be attributing to it. The lack of social aspects in games is not so much due to instancing as it is to the catering to solo play. Which instances cater to If a game has instancing but makes solo nearly impossible then groups will form and quest together. can't think of any game that did this other than DDO, and yes, that game had a fantastic social element, you'd meet random people in taverns and then adventure together in the spirit of DnD, but that was because all the content was group dungeon based. But when you have instancing and solo play(GW1 henchman and DDO hirelings) make the game exactly what you are saying at time. Completely lacking in teamwork or social skills. I agree that games which allow for both can at times ruin the immersion and fun.
What I hate is going to a dungeon and finding some guild controlling the spawn 24/7. Never seen that in my 10 years of playing MMORPGs, guess I just got lucky with well designed games. Those types of places being instanced allows everyone to enjoy the content Or devs wouldn't need the instancing bandaid if they made the game right the first time.
You are misinformed. You made a comment about Vanguard a game which was poorly made and had guilds spawn camping many of the known overworld bosses. You seem to ignore these facts to make your debate.
The overland bosses were a handful of critters tacked on long after the game died. I was long gone by then. It's a good example of what NOT to do. Note you mention OVERWORLD bosses though... that has nothing to do with instanced dungeons. Either way, with 4 devs it was hardly possible to make enough content for the people in Vanguard, but they tried. The rest of the world and dungeons however, were large and sprawling and had many people working together inside.
DDO does not have a fantastic social element. DDO is the game with instancing that has also made almost the ENTIRE game soloable. You can even solo some raids. DDO is one of the worst games for social aspects because so much of the game runs contrary to true D&D.
When I played DDO, a few months after launch, there was NO soloing. I didn't like the game, but what I DID like was how social it was. I talked with a lot of people in taverns because thats where you healed the fastest and set up dungeon groups.
As for only people you already know, I find this to be rubbish. How do you think you meet people in DDO when a group was actually needed years ago? Years ago, it doesn't happen anymore. Almost all dungeon diving is done by groups of tight knit friends, or guild groups. Socializing in MMOs has degraded to the point where its damn difficult to meet anyone new outside your own guild. You put a looking for more message and gathered a group. Any game with instancing also has ways to meet people beforehand and form a group without knowing them ahead of time. You are ignoring facts in every post.
How is instancing a bandaid? Because if the world was designed well, you wouldn't have to create shadow worlds to shuffle your population into. You'd be able to spread people around easily. Oh no, I acidently made it so that this uber sword of awesome drops off this ONE MOB in this ONE PLACE. Everyone is trying to get it! Better instance it! Or, you could make comparable look accesible not only in multiple dungeon, but from crafters as well, so that people could do the dungeon if they wanted, for fun, or they could pay a crafter. Seriously your belief in what makes an old school gamer is not what I as an oldschool gamer and MMORPG player believe or want. You do not speak for all of us, just speak for yourself.
You have now stumbled upon one of my biggest pet peeves in MMOs, the death or crafting.
I long for the days of UO when crafted weapons could be better then looted ones. Even Earth& Beyond, which had a bad system for crafting, had the good sense to make crafted weapons do more damage and crafted engines faster and last longer. Todays games generally gloss over crafting and its a shame. Good crafting can be the lifeblood of the in game economy.
I also thought Vanguards raid system was trash. Having people in the group who were not involved in the combat was atrocious. Overall Vanguard failed in every way. While the world was large and sprawling(empty too) people were not working together. There were plenty of times my group would meet another group and there was no cooperation. People are not thrilled to meet new people competing for the resources they are after. Sure sometimes you make friends that way, but just as often you get a rude response. The problem with most games is your ability to loot and gain XP is tied to the group you are with. If they allowed for people not grouped to share kills and XP then you would see more cooperation, but in general people are not going to help you for no gain, unless they know you.
Social people will be social, nothing in a game will make a social misfit become a social butterfly. The people who play the game are the reason that the social aspects have died, not the game itself. One of the things I hated most about Tabula Rasa was that for a game about mankind banding together to fight for existance it was the easiest MMO to solo to level cap I have ever seen.
To this day DDO is not almost all done by groups who know eachother. Pick up groups happen everyday without an open world. You no longer heal faster in taverns and they are generally empty. I never used taverns to set up grops because DDOs LFM system makes that unneeded.
But instancing is also used to help weak servers. It is not so much a bandaid because of poor game design it is more a bandaid to cover up for cheap companies. Server load is lessened with instances and in areas like dungeons that condense a population more you sometimes need it.
That's fine and all but the reason for of those rinse repeate problems is that players have too much time to put into a game vs the time it takes to generate content. With a progression/advancement system you either have to slow them down, build as fast as they consume or allow them to run into the end of content for a while. Sure, you can add PVP and social activities into the mix to give the appearance of stuff to do but is that good enough?
You're asking the question backwards. It shouldnt be fine that the default state of a game was such that it consisted of mostly filler to artificially extend the game experience and keep you paying a sub.
That's fine and all but the reason for of those rinse repeate problems is that players have too much time to put into a game vs the time it takes to generate content. With a progression/advancement system you either have to slow them down, build as fast as they consume or allow them to run into the end of content for a while. Sure, you can add PVP and social activities into the mix to give the appearance of stuff to do but is that good enough?
You're asking the question backwards. It shouldnt be fine that the default state of a game was such that it consisted of mostly filler to artificially extend the game experience and keep you paying a sub.
RTF post next time.
To me PVP can be a great experience IF and only IF the game was designed with it in mind from the start. Games that add PvP later(DDO, Earth & Beyond) tend to do so in an attempt to placate the small vocal group who claim PvP can save any game. Rarely if ever has this proven true. But in games where PvP was planned and designed right it can be a great part of the game and not filler at all.
MMOs by their nature are basicly built to bring you in and get money from you. Games that are built well and have things to do seem to rely less on filler and crap to take the place of the fun most are looking for. To me UO got most of it right without years of experience in MMOs to draw upon while most newer games seem to have missed the lessons that the older games should have taught them.
People really do not have that much time to put in to games. From what I see these days the casual gamer is a much larger segment of the population then it used to be assumed and they are not the ones who rinse and repeat are aimed at. The hardcore gamer is a smaller number then people think. The number of people burning through content is not a large % of the player base.
I hate how they keep rubbing our nose in how great this game is supposed to be. I really want them to be like weve secretly almost had this game done for some time now and were about to realese it but i know its going to take alot more time. WSAD movement with being smart enough to step off a small ledge it sounds better then most mmo's that have come out so far this decade
It just means they're not done adding in more awesome stuff ;D when It comes out, i'll make all the PC MMO Gamerz gasm. xD
Also nestled within all this coverage is still the fact that zergs will still be common place. And so far they have not yet addressed the issue....maybe if they can come to a compromise on that then maybe they can focus on toning down the over used lighting effects.
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
I never thought I'd live to see the day when "seeing another player in my dungeon" would be considered novel or cool. So many modern "MMO" gamers haven't ever experienced it, yet they bash the concept because they don't know any better. Take it from people who HAVE seen both worlds, dungeons are much better when they aren't instanced. Unless of course, you don't like the multiplayer aspects of MMOs (in which case I ask, why are you playing them?)
This is just pining for old times. I've played the oldschool dungeons and new dungeons as well, there's a reason why developers chose for instancing dungeons, if those oldschool dungeons would have been so much more fantastic than current dungeons, those design changes wouldn't have been needed.
There was a lot of times that you wanted to adventure a little dungeon with your group only to discover the spots your group was most interested in was already camped.
Both dungeon types have advantages and disadvantages. Luckily I'm able to enjoy both types of dungeons for what they have to offer.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Im so happy there trying to make this the most pawning game when it comes out . I think this game even has a completely different feel to it compared to all the other crap thats being released . Im super hyped for this game and i normally dont get overhyped for games ive been a gamer way to long to get overly hyped but i will say this much im glad there trying new things and i will surely be one of the first to preorder this game when its ready .
If you've been a gamer for a long time then you should know never to get over hyped. All these things Anet say sound cool but how will they actually play out? Anet obviously knows box sales will play a big part and i believe they are making this sound better than it will be.
Could be great but broken promises are not rare, i'll wait to try the game before claiming its going to be the best of all time. So far the video's haven't impressed me.
I read this over and over. The mistakes of the rest of developers shouldn't be the ones to judge anet.
They already stated that everything they talk about in details is something that is tested and working. I trust their statement because they never let me down. The crew behind anet are in this bussines for a long time and i loved all their games.
Hi all, I really like the description of this game, I hope dont forget Latin America like other games usually do, because here there is a large market for these games too. I think GW2 has the best of games and include their own creative contributions in many forms. I look forward to its release. I played Runes of Magic and it s a nice game but a total headache.
Everyone screams for a release date, they have stated not til it is ready. I say yes not til it is ready. I am looking forward to this game, and I do not want yet another game released that has promise and fail because they release it to soon. This may take away I must go to the dungeon to grind. I love it a dungeon with a reason to go see.
This is so totally awesome!!!! It really sounds like "Arnet " has totally taken the time to listen to what their "Players/Gamers" want and have been asking for, and are applying this to every nook & cranny of the game!!!! Of course this all takes TIME!...Which is well worth waiting for! {{ But....can be so frustrating at times! *Lmfao* }}
Do dungeons scale to the number of players and/or thier levels? I thought I had read or heard that somewhere.
Dynamic Events: In open world PvE (+1600) of these: Scaling according to number of players and damage output by players by increasing number of mobs, mob levels and mob skills unlocked so that even challenge for "all" group sizes. Smaller DEs will likely have an upper limit but large DEs will likely scale to at least 50+ and more.
Dungeons: Instanced 5-man or less content. 1. Story Dungeons are a bit easier. Once these are completed you unlock Repeat Dungeons: Same dungeon but content can reshuffle and this content is the most challenging and requires highest organization of players to beat type of PvE content; dungeons at or after level 80 will be the most challenging of these.
"Forget this foolish path of personal storyline and unique dungeons. The Players do not want that. They want runs for loot. We know best. We have been designing these games for years. Charge a subscription fee too. They will pay it. Add an item shop when all seems lost. We know what we are doing.."
- a WoW designer
Just in case Hathi this statement came out of the mouth of a wow bliz programeer indeed...
The attitude and aproach of thinkingg of this dude , pictures EXACTLY why wow went to its boring current mindless farming style /no evolvment at all situation. Easy fast dungeons and raids even for the low skilled ppl.
Sorrow Furnace was an ace dungeon in GW1. Plenty to do, great loot, explorable, tough (at the time of Prophecies at least!), some crazy NPCs, a story.... More of that please!
The EotN dungeon weren't so good, but had good times in Urgoz / Temple Of The Ages, The Deep. Good memories.
Do dungeons scale to the number of players and/or thier levels? I thought I had read or heard that somewhere.
I hope not. It's already a pain in GW1 with the solo farming. If you make it easier for solos or duos, then where's the fun? It then all become a farm fest.
I'm not too keen on heroes and henchies either. Instead of being just placeholders to fill parties, it's now becoming preferable to run with your heroes and a couple of henchies, rather than risk it with players. Playing a monk now is completely pointless. Before that, it was impossible NOT to find a game as a healer / protter, as your party was sure to wipe without a good one or two. I suppose that's why they dropped the specialised support class in favour of balanced play. Still, I'm gonna miss being the guy that saves the day.
Oh well, It was fun while it lasted, I hope they still have scope for purely support class, and not just something a bot can do.
Comments
You have now stumbled upon one of my biggest pet peeves in MMOs, the death or crafting.
I long for the days of UO when crafted weapons could be better then looted ones. Even Earth& Beyond, which had a bad system for crafting, had the good sense to make crafted weapons do more damage and crafted engines faster and last longer. Todays games generally gloss over crafting and its a shame. Good crafting can be the lifeblood of the in game economy.
I also thought Vanguards raid system was trash. Having people in the group who were not involved in the combat was atrocious. Overall Vanguard failed in every way. While the world was large and sprawling(empty too) people were not working together. There were plenty of times my group would meet another group and there was no cooperation. People are not thrilled to meet new people competing for the resources they are after. Sure sometimes you make friends that way, but just as often you get a rude response. The problem with most games is your ability to loot and gain XP is tied to the group you are with. If they allowed for people not grouped to share kills and XP then you would see more cooperation, but in general people are not going to help you for no gain, unless they know you.
Social people will be social, nothing in a game will make a social misfit become a social butterfly. The people who play the game are the reason that the social aspects have died, not the game itself. One of the things I hated most about Tabula Rasa was that for a game about mankind banding together to fight for existance it was the easiest MMO to solo to level cap I have ever seen.
To this day DDO is not almost all done by groups who know eachother. Pick up groups happen everyday without an open world. You no longer heal faster in taverns and they are generally empty. I never used taverns to set up grops because DDOs LFM system makes that unneeded.
But instancing is also used to help weak servers. It is not so much a bandaid because of poor game design it is more a bandaid to cover up for cheap companies. Server load is lessened with instances and in areas like dungeons that condense a population more you sometimes need it.
RTF post next time.
To me PVP can be a great experience IF and only IF the game was designed with it in mind from the start. Games that add PvP later(DDO, Earth & Beyond) tend to do so in an attempt to placate the small vocal group who claim PvP can save any game. Rarely if ever has this proven true. But in games where PvP was planned and designed right it can be a great part of the game and not filler at all.
MMOs by their nature are basicly built to bring you in and get money from you. Games that are built well and have things to do seem to rely less on filler and crap to take the place of the fun most are looking for. To me UO got most of it right without years of experience in MMOs to draw upon while most newer games seem to have missed the lessons that the older games should have taught them.
People really do not have that much time to put in to games. From what I see these days the casual gamer is a much larger segment of the population then it used to be assumed and they are not the ones who rinse and repeat are aimed at. The hardcore gamer is a smaller number then people think. The number of people burning through content is not a large % of the player base.
Also nestled within all this coverage is still the fact that zergs will still be common place. And so far they have not yet addressed the issue....maybe if they can come to a compromise on that then maybe they can focus on toning down the over used lighting effects.
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
This is just pining for old times. I've played the oldschool dungeons and new dungeons as well, there's a reason why developers chose for instancing dungeons, if those oldschool dungeons would have been so much more fantastic than current dungeons, those design changes wouldn't have been needed.
There was a lot of times that you wanted to adventure a little dungeon with your group only to discover the spots your group was most interested in was already camped.
Both dungeon types have advantages and disadvantages. Luckily I'm able to enjoy both types of dungeons for what they have to offer.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I read this over and over. The mistakes of the rest of developers shouldn't be the ones to judge anet.
They already stated that everything they talk about in details is something that is tested and working. I trust their statement because they never let me down. The crew behind anet are in this bussines for a long time and i loved all their games.
Hi all, I really like the description of this game, I hope dont forget Latin America like other games usually do, because here there is a large market for these games too. I think GW2 has the best of games and include their own creative contributions in many forms. I look forward to its release. I played Runes of Magic and it s a nice game but a total headache.
Everyone screams for a release date, they have stated not til it is ready. I say yes not til it is ready. I am looking forward to this game, and I do not want yet another game released that has promise and fail because they release it to soon. This may take away I must go to the dungeon to grind. I love it a dungeon with a reason to go see.
Look for the Rose with the Thorn.
Everchanging in the world =AWESOME
This is so totally awesome!!!! It really sounds like "Arnet " has totally taken the time to listen to what their "Players/Gamers" want and have been asking for, and are applying this to every nook & cranny of the game!!!! Of course this all takes TIME!...Which is well worth waiting for! {{ But....can be so frustrating at times! *Lmfao*
}}
Echo
Do dungeons scale to the number of players and/or thier levels? I thought I had read or heard that somewhere.
Dynamic Events: In open world PvE (+1600) of these: Scaling according to number of players and damage output by players by increasing number of mobs, mob levels and mob skills unlocked so that even challenge for "all" group sizes. Smaller DEs will likely have an upper limit but large DEs will likely scale to at least 50+ and more.
Dungeons: Instanced 5-man or less content. 1. Story Dungeons are a bit easier. Once these are completed you unlock Repeat Dungeons: Same dungeon but content can reshuffle and this content is the most challenging and requires highest organization of players to beat type of PvE content; dungeons at or after level 80 will be the most challenging of these.
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
Just in case Hathi this statement came out of the mouth of a wow bliz programeer indeed...
The attitude and aproach of thinkingg of this dude , pictures EXACTLY why wow went to its boring current mindless farming style /no evolvment at all situation. Easy fast dungeons and raids even for the low skilled ppl.
Sorrow Furnace was an ace dungeon in GW1. Plenty to do, great loot, explorable, tough (at the time of Prophecies at least!), some crazy NPCs, a story.... More of that please!
The EotN dungeon weren't so good, but had good times in Urgoz / Temple Of The Ages, The Deep. Good memories.
I hope not. It's already a pain in GW1 with the solo farming. If you make it easier for solos or duos, then where's the fun? It then all become a farm fest.
I'm not too keen on heroes and henchies either. Instead of being just placeholders to fill parties, it's now becoming preferable to run with your heroes and a couple of henchies, rather than risk it with players. Playing a monk now is completely pointless. Before that, it was impossible NOT to find a game as a healer / protter, as your party was sure to wipe without a good one or two. I suppose that's why they dropped the specialised support class in favour of balanced play. Still, I'm gonna miss being the guy that saves the day.
Oh well, It was fun while it lasted, I hope they still have scope for purely support class, and not just something a bot can do.