"Lord British has been killed!!! Lord British has been killed!!!!"
Ah jeeez... I remember when that occured, it shook the (then) small MMORPG community to the core, LOL!
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
I grew up in the 'ole AD&D days and still enjoy newer mmos. The preset adventures available in modern mmos simply remind of adventuring through modules like they had in the pencil and paper days.
There is nothing stopping you fom rp'ing in these newer mmos or setting up your own player or guild events separate from what the game has going on. People do it all the time.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
Like you, I used to want to be very immersed in a MMORPG and wanted to be part of a living, virtual world. At some point though, it changed and I didn't want to be immersed anymore, I began to understand the "casual player" more. I also appreciate WoW now in the sense, that it's great Diablo 2.5 or Diablo Worlds or whatever. It also suits me well now as I don't really want to get into the virtual world, I spent time on other stuff too much. I can't even get immersed anymore, I guess. It's more because of how the games are, though. There's so many of us casual players in the genre nowdays, that there's not much space left for real RPG nerds, who want to be sucked in an immersive virtual world for hours. I don't mean that as an insult, I'm nerd in many ways, just not RPG anymore. Also getting older has probably huge part in all this, RPG's and shooters changed to turn-based strategy games. Taste also becomes more demanding due time, perhaps the current games, in reality, aren't that bad after all.
Well, my point is, I guess, that the games themselves aren't the problem, it's the players that are completely different and much more numerous compared to 10 years ago and MUD players etc. It's easy forget that and put the blame on game developers. Game developer does what he is told so he can earn his living, often times though he has interest in making a good game, but it's most likely some big boss making the decisions, who only cares about money and money is a lot easier to get from casual playerbase, than hardcore roleplayers. Only indie studios put out games, that appeal to the minority, as they don't need as much players to be profitable. They, of course, have some issues with resources and knowledge as you may have noticed with Mortal Online and Darkfall and so on.
More people, more money has the tendency to harm a lot of stuff, I've noticed the pattern with a lot art forms and hobbies etc. Gotta just live with, I guess. There's bound to always happen something good once in a while, just gotta wait and see. Most of the old games are still around though, and I don't know if you consider EVE an old or current game, it's very fine MMORPG anyway.
Well, my point is, I guess, that the games themselves aren't the problem, it's the players that are completely different and much more numerous compared to 10 years ago and MUD players etc.Like you, I used to want to be very immersed in a MMORPG and wanted to be part of a living, virtual world. At some point though, it changed and I didn't want to be immersed anymore, I began to understand the "casual player" more. I also appreciate WoW now in the sense, that it's great Diablo 2.5 or Diablo Worlds or whatever. It also suits me well now as I don't really want to get into the virtual world, I spent time on other stuff too much. I can't even get immersed anymore, I guess. It's more because of how the games are, though. There's so many of us casual players in the genre nowdays, that there's not much space left for real RPG nerds, who want to be sucked in an immersive virtual world for hours. I don't mean that as an insult, I'm nerd in many ways, just not RPG anymore. Also getting older has probably huge part in all this, RPG's and shooters changed to turn-based strategy games. Taste also becomes more demanding due time, perhaps the current games, in reality, aren't that bad after all.
Well, my point is, I guess, that the games themselves aren't the problem, it's the players that are completely different and much more numerous compared to 10 years ago and MUD players etc.Like you, I used to want to be very immersed in a MMORPG and wanted to be part of a living, virtual world. At some point though, it changed and I didn't want to be immersed anymore, I began to understand the "casual player" more. I also appreciate WoW now in the sense, that it's great Diablo 2.5 or Diablo Worlds or whatever. It also suits me well now as I don't really want to get into the virtual world, I spent time on other stuff too much. I can't even get immersed anymore, I guess. It's more because of how the games are, though. There's so many of us casual players in the genre nowdays, that there's not much space left for real RPG nerds, who want to be sucked in an immersive virtual world for hours. I don't mean that as an insult, I'm nerd in many ways, just not RPG anymore. Also getting older has probably huge part in all this, RPG's and shooters changed to turn-based strategy games. Taste also becomes more demanding due time, perhaps the current games, in reality, aren't that bad after all.
Well, my point is, I guess, that the games themselves aren't the problem, it's the players that are completely different and much more numerous compared to 10 years ago and MUD players etc.
For me, its especially telling how the divide has grown with MMO game design. A lot of the older MMOs, WoW (in the beginning), seems to have been influenced by the developers growing up with p-n-p and table top games.
While the new generation of developers (seem to) have been most heavily influenced by consoles. I think thats why were seeing this shift to simplified, heavily guided, (ie focused) gameplay designs.
I think gone are the days where you had large open worlds you could explore, the adventure was yours to make. What were getting now is Zelda like game play.
"...developers are doing away with the "let's make this just like real life in the middle ages!" mentality. I understand the sadness this causes, because when I did have hour after hour of free time, I loved that playing in Everquest meant absolutely immersing myself in the world."
Although they never made it just like real life, they did try and make it immersive. Where you felt like you were part of a fantasy world. Now its more like youre just a visitor there.
True 100% . Old programmers 's gaming expiriences were playing games like,pirates,black crypt,eye of the beholder,x-com games that were focusing on gameplay's depth immersion,creativity, and they produced masterpieces like baldur's gate,Iwd ,elder scroll's series (even diablo).
New generstion of programmers are motly guys that grown up with console games that were focusing on impresive effects and dast paced gameplay producing masterpieces like arcnia gothic 4 (lol)
I think the op shows exactly where the disconnect lies not just between developers and players but between the "older" players and younger players. Especially those of us who grew up playing pen and paper RPGs like D&D.
You can only have that kind of self-directed play when you've got a real person who can change their minds at a moment's notice leading the parade. So long as you're playing against a computer, you cannot ever have that kind of play. It's been that way since the first Final Fantasy game, you got led around by the nose through their overblown story whether you wanted to or not, with a mere veneer of "choice". Eventually, you're going to do what they pre-programmed you to do or you're going to stop playing. There are no other options.
If you want to go back to the tabletop experience, you have to go back to the tabletop and leave the computer out of the equation.
I think there are numerous reasons why MMOs are no longer the 'adventures' they used to be:
1. There are far more casual gamers in the MMO market than before. These people don't want to create their own adventures and are quite happy playing through one that someone else has created. They would've never even considered playing a pnp game like D&D and probably like the social and achievement (kit-grind) elements of MMOs far more than the lore, immersion or freedom aspects.
2. Given the amount of resources it takes to develop a modern computer game of any substance, companies are going to tend to invest in games that will attract lots of players or at least make some form of profit. It seems, as far as developers/investors are concerned, there just simply aren't enough old skool MMO gamers out there to make it worth building a game for. That's why players who don't like 'theme-park MMOs' end up playing games like Darkfall, with graphics from the 1940s.
3. The novelty of being in a virtual gameworld has gone. I'm sure players used to think "Wow, I can wash my virtual clothes and sharpen my virtual sword in this game - how exciting!" Nowadays, I get the feeling that players just want to get straight into the action. The definition of action varies from one person to another; some like dressing their character up, some like combat, some like collecting a load of fancy stuff and some just like tackling quests with their pals. But to return to my first point, how many people actually want to sit there for hours on end, designing, building and managing their own detailed fantasy? My guess is: not enough. Other in-game activities seem to have fallen by the wayside too, things like crafting. Now I read posts all the time from players who love crafting and wish the days of XYZ would come again so they can return to their former crafting glory. However, I bet most players couldn't give a toss. If a developer came out with a genuinely fun way of making stuff that actually felt like it had some value, I'm sure people would get back into this activity but as it stands, crafting just doesn't appeal to people.
I feel it's this lack of interest in certain elements of gameplay, combined with the significant development effort required to make these elements fun is what's led to where we are today. I'm not saying I'm happy with the current situation at all, that's just my 2 cents.
Aryas
Aryasthink there are numerous reasons why MMOs are no longer the 'adventures' they used to be:
1. There are far more casual gamers in the MMO market than before. These people don't want to create their own adventures and are quite happy playing through one that someone else has created. They would've never even considered playing a pnp game like D&D and probably like the social and achievement (kit-grind) elements of MMOs far more than the lore, immersion or freedom aspects.
2. Given the amount of resources it takes to develop a modern computer game of any substance, companies are going to tend to invest in games that will attract lots of players or at least make some form of profit. It seems, as far as developers/investors are concerned, there just simply aren't enough old skool MMO gamers out there to make it worth building a game for. That's why players who don't like 'theme-park MMOs' end up playing games like Darkfall, with graphics from the 1940s.
3. The novelty of being in a virtual gameworld has gone. I'm sure players used to think "Wow, I can wash my virtual clothes and sharpen my virtual sword in this game - how exciting!" Nowadays, I get the feeling that players just want to get straight into the action. Now action varies from one person to another; some like dressing their character up, some like combat, some like collecting a load of fancy stuff and some just like tackling quests with their pals. But to return to my first point, how many people actually want to sit there for hours on end, designing, building and managing their own detailed fantasy? Other in-game activities seem to have fallen by the wayside too, things like crafting. Now I read posts all the time from players who love crafting and wish the days of XYZ would return so they could return to their former crafting glory. However, I bet most players couldn't give a toss. If a developer came out with a genuinely fun way of making stuff that actually felt like it had some value, I'm sure people would get back into this activity but as it stands, crafting just doesn't appeal to people.
I feel it's this lack of interest in certain elements of gameplay, combined with the development effort required to make these elements fun that's lead to where we are today. That's just my 2 cents.
Aryas
Playing: Ableton Live 8 ~ ragequitcancelsubdeletegamesmashcomputerkillself ~
You can only have that kind of self-directed play when you've got a real person who can change their minds at a moment's notice leading the parade. So long as you're playing against a computer, you cannot ever have that kind of play. It's been that way since the first Final Fantasy game, you got led around by the nose through their overblown story whether you wanted to or not, with a mere veneer of "choice". Eventually, you're going to do what they pre-programmed you to do or you're going to stop playing. There are no other options.
If you want to go back to the tabletop experience, you have to go back to the tabletop and leave the computer out of the equation.
It's that way these days because in MMORPGs now, the only real way of progression is via main quests and such. To do things otherwise is to rip out the heart out of your character's progression in XPs and even equipment (miss out on quest reward items).
To put it bluntly, if you want to do things outside the main quest, the rewards just aren't there. You WILL do it the devs' way or get the big F-U from the game's design.
As far as progression goes, there used to be a game design where the player character got specific XPs for certain actions. Successful use of a pistol got you pistol XPs; Successful use of a rifle got you rifle XPs; Succesfully making a set of armor got you armorsmith XPs; etc.
And the game world? Giving the players tools do make things happen on their own and in their community is a start. Being able to build your own character's house out in the wild and away from the big towns / cities. Being able to issue bounties on players. Being able to take control of zones (PvP) with bonafide effects for controlling / losing them. Random NPC faction clashes that the player can witness or partake in, or any faction play elements to get players active, especially for PvP.
On and on.
It doesn't have to be done with quests, i.e. text bubbles telling a person what to exactly do. An immersive game world where the players are granted freedom in doing things by themselves or with the group.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
The disconnect is between the inarticulate ramblings of the player base and the inability of publishers to listen to anything that they don't think will make them money. The disconnect is also between what the players are obviously paying for and what they are saying they want to pay for on random internet forums.
Individual developers might make a game they want to play, but Producers, Publishers and Investors are going to finance what they think will make money. They try to figure out what will make money by looking at the games that didn't make money and the games that did. Then they look at how much money. What makes money? Lots of money? Story driven, single player RPG/FPS games with a multiplayer component, WoW, Puzzle games and Facebook games. None of the games that actually make money (except Eve, which took years of post release development) are even close to what the OP described. Anything more player directed and less story driven like a single player game is going to have to come from Indie publishers until there are multiple successful games. One successful game in the genre (Eve) isn't going to convince people with lots of money to invest.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
As a long time DnD player, I agree with the OP's sentiment. However, I see very few ways to make an MMO that interactive. Accounting for every player choice requires a human GM. BioWare's games have a lot of choice, but hardly the infinite choice of a human player. I just don't think it's possible without a sentient computer.
Important facts: 1. Free to Play games are poorly made. 2. Casuals are not all idiots, but idiots call themselves casuals. 3. Great solo and group content are not mutually exclusive, but they suffer when one is shoved into the mold of the other. The same is true of PvP and PvE. 4. Community is more important than you think.
While the new generation of developers (seem to) have been most heavily influenced by consoles.
I think you're forgetting that game developers are borne from the gaming community, and the majority of today's gamers have been heavily influenced by consoles.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Simply put, I don't think any AI is ready for table and paper like video RPG, let alone MMORPG for that matter. It all has to be scripted so far, so when designing (and playing) video games, of any kind, people should think more of movies than pen-and-paper RPG. Think "determined outcome(s)", think not imagination (at least, not yours).
I agree there are some interesting examples. I don't think sandboxes, including EVE, are relevant. Nothing is bound to happen unless players do it, while in RPG, the DM (dungeon master) is supposed to give life to all the NPCs and environments. A DM is like a dedicated writer/director in real time for your party. No DM, no classic RPG, I don't think that obstacle can be circumvented that easily. EVE, sandboxes, are something else. It's more like "collective RPG" (read: massively blabla RPG) without DM. (note: very interesting, i love'em, just not what i had in vintage paper RPG).
That being said, there are ways. At least theoretically. It is perhaps possible to program viable virtual DMs, should that be a goal for a studio, even though I imagine it would be a massive undertaking as of today. Yet I think building a virtual DM AI assisting players in their evolution in the world is much more interesting than building a hundred fixed and repetitive quests, but that's just me. Though I believe the future is there: dynamic creation of content (on-the-fly), depending on certain conditions (players caracs, time, faction standing, weather...) on the PvE side of things. Let's not forget that RPG is mainly a PvE thing.
In the future, if devs are able to make AIs more relevant, more complex, and not just object-based: a mob has an AI, but whole ecosystems and quest systems could also be AI-managed, so that the world (or parts of it) changes according to players actions, day after month after year. This one is polluted by crafting. This one is filled with dark magic monsters. This one is a cut-throat. This one is political. And so on.
The freedom of choice you're given as a player is only equal to the number of possibilities that a program allows you to do. There is a calculable range of outcomes for every action. It's the matrix, really. And I don't believe that video games ever gave more freedom than they do in the 2000's. Certainly not in the 1980's, however fantastic those years of gaming seemed to us. We made the stories and illusions of choices, the game were just, at most, "books in which you are the hero", certainly not dynamic or adaptive worlds albeit to a very limited extent (read: computer resources).
So I hear you Hokie, but I'm more optimistic. I think our graal lies somewhere in the future. I don't think our ideal video game RPG, let alone MMORPG, can be made as of today. Think 2015, maybe. I put my money on the second part of this decade.
As a long time DnD player, I agree with the OP's sentiment. However, I see very few ways to make an MMO that interactive. Accounting for every player choice requires a human GM. BioWare's games have a lot of choice, but hardly the infinite choice of a human player. I just don't think it's possible without a sentient computer.
What I wrote about wasnt so much the type of choice and complexity of it, but more about the loss of choice and the fact that someone who isnt me deciding what I would like best. Kinda really F'd up when you think about it.
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Hokie
While the new generation of developers (seem to) have been most heavily influenced by consoles.
I think you're forgetting that game developers are borne from the gaming community, and the majority of today's gamers have been heavily influenced by consoles.
No, that was kinda my whole point.
It was the fact that the current generation of new(er) game developers are basing new MMO game development off of their experiences, which is mostly or completely grounded in Zelda/Final Fantasy style of RPG's.
And even though I dont like the new direction, I'm not saying that its a negative. I understand that its part of the evolution (de-evolution in my eyes) of the genre.
Sadly just five to ten years ago that wasnt the case. And Im finding it harder and harder to connect to the *hyper-focused gameplay of todays new and upcomming MMO's.
What I do find most surprising is that Im not alone in my feelings. Well at least the feelings that people are empathizing with.
*Was using hyper-focused too much of an overkill, even though I choose that word to really stress just how strongly I feel about it?
"I understand that if I hear any more words come pouring out of your **** mouth, Ill have to eat every fucking chicken in this room."
As a long time DnD player, I agree with the OP's sentiment. However, I see very few ways to make an MMO that interactive. Accounting for every player choice requires a human GM. BioWare's games have a lot of choice, but hardly the infinite choice of a human player. I just don't think it's possible without a sentient computer.
What I wrote about wasnt so much the type of choice and complexity of it, but more about the loss of choice and the fact that someone who isnt me deciding what I would like best. Kinda really F'd up when you think about it.
Isn't the point of having a GM in a pen&paper RP adventure so someone else decides what you can and cannot do in the story? The GM's job is to put a limit on what the players can do so an interesting adventure can take place.
The theoretical GM you described was simply inexperienced. An experienced GM would have given you the illusion of choice and then still told the story he wanted to tell. If you did not want to get the quest from the mayor, he could have had a dying wanderer on the road give it instead or maybe have it originate from a mine foreman in the mountains. A little flexibility on the details that are unimportant to the players would have gotten the job done no matter how obtuse the palyers are. If the players get really impossible, you just throw bigger and bigger random encounters at them until they see sense or the characters die.
Heck, most players really do not want much of a story anyway. They are perfectly happy with a bunch of meaningless random encounters where they get to slaughter tons of orcs/goblins/bandit/dark elves and get to feel like a hero.
Some people have missed the point. I don't think the OP is asking for a new aged super cyber AI program that responds to every action a player makes. He is not looking at the future for answers but the past. In the past in games like everquest, we had small things that immersed us into the world we were playing. Those things have been lost these days.
Some people are also a bit confused about the term "hardcore", it is not the same as "old school", A game could be both pf these things, but being one does not qualify you as being the other. When people ask for a "hardcore" game, they are asking for a harsh world that does not cater to people having to "learn the game". They want high risk with equally high rewards. Darkfall and Mortal online are at the head of a "hardcore" revolution. "Old school" games are deeper, fleshed out worlds. The real deeper ones have weather seasons, a true working in game date and time, and a cohesive world. Games like Saga of Ryzom and Vanguard are at the head of the "old school" revolution.
An example of a game that belongs in both categories would be Ultima Online, and possibly even Runescape.
I could not agree more. Having said that I will repeat what I said elsewhere. Making MMO's is a business. Good business practice is about making a product that will generate the most profit. Themepark, force the adventure, nerfed games sell the most so expect to see more of them. Games that appeal to older gamers like yourself and myself appeal to a lesser crowd and will therefore generate less profits and will not get made because no one will want to invest in them. Now, there will be exceptions, but I would guess 90% of the games from now on will be like your example and only 10% will be lets go adventure.
Give me one example of a dumbed-down game that sold good beside WoW!
Simply put, I don't think any AI is ready for table and paper like video RPG, let alone MMORPG for that matter. It all has to be scripted so far, so when designing (and playing) video games, of any kind, people should think more of movies than pen-and-paper RPG. Think "determined outcome(s)", think not imagination (at least, not yours).
I agree there are some interesting examples. I don't think sandboxes, including EVE, are relevant. Nothing is bound to happen unless players do it, while in RPG, the DM (dungeon master) is supposed to give life to all the NPCs and environments. A DM is like a dedicated writer/director in real time for your party. No DM, no classic RPG, I don't think that obstacle can be circumvented that easily. EVE, sandboxes, are something else. It's more like "collective RPG" (read: massively blabla RPG) without DM. (note: very interesting, i love'em, just not what i had in vintage paper RPG).
That being said, there are ways. At least theoretically. It is perhaps possible to program viable virtual DMs, should that be a goal for a studio, even though I imagine it would be a massive undertaking as of today. Yet I think building a virtual DM AI assisting players in their evolution in the world is much more interesting than building a hundred fixed and repetitive quests, but that's just me. Though I believe the future is there: dynamic creation of content (on-the-fly), depending on certain conditions (players caracs, time, faction standing, weather...) on the PvE side of things. Let's not forget that RPG is mainly a PvE thing.
In the future, if devs are able to make AIs more relevant, more complex, and not just object-based: a mob has an AI, but whole ecosystems and quest systems could also be AI-managed, so that the world (or parts of it) changes according to players actions, day after month after year. This one is polluted by crafting. This one is filled with dark magic monsters. This one is a cut-throat. This one is political. And so on.
The freedom of choice you're given as a player is only equal to the number of possibilities that a program allows you to do. There is a calculable range of outcomes for every action. It's the matrix, really. And I don't believe that video games ever gave more freedom than they do in the 2000's. Certainly not in the 1980's, however fantastic those years of gaming seemed to us. We made the stories and illusions of choices, the game were just, at most, "books in which you are the hero", certainly not dynamic or adaptive worlds albeit to a very limited extent (read: computer resources).
So I hear you Hokie, but I'm more optimistic. I think our graal lies somewhere in the future. I don't think our ideal video game RPG, let alone MMORPG, can be made as of today. Think 2015, maybe. I put my money on the second part of this decade.
Well, I remember having played MUDS in the early 90s, when most ppl did not even know about the existance of the Internet, where the AI was light years ahead of today MMO's. Mob (NPCs) would do things like fleeing, and then coming back, later, sometimes even days later, and with some friends, to chase even out of their designated areas.
Or mobs that would disarm you, and if they considered your weapon was better than what they had, use it instead, against you. Or mobs that would pickpocket your gold and then hide somewhere. Those were just a few examples.
Devs ARE able to implement advanced AIs. They have been able for decades. They just won't becouse it costs resources and time. Nowadays, when most MMOs get released pathetically unfinished and buggy, asking for advanced AIs is... dreaming.
I see the discussion here as delineating opposites, to wit, theme-park vs sandbox, older games vs new games, PC vs console, older gamers vs younger gamers. The thing that strikes me personally is the move away froms slower paced gaming (more cerebral) towards twitch gaming (reflexes and coordination, at least manual coordination).
The other day I was called an idiot in vindictus because I just couldn't coordinate my attacks/dodges against a boss and wound up getting smashed to bits. Well, the problem with a "twitch" game online is two fold: if you don't have great performance you cannot combo properly, or if you don't have a tween's reflexes, you are also toast. Which reminded me that I tried to play MW2, it was fun, but I was not any good at it. Just couldn't hit the keys right, poor reflexes. So it got old pretty fast.
Then I thought about the battles in EQ. They were always long, you had plenty of time to make moves that were important to success, but I wasn't in a situation in which if I didnt hit a key combo in the right order I was doomed. (Note I didn't do the end game dragon stuff --- from what I have read the coordination in some of those encounters needed to be very high level, but I am not talking about that).
My point is that older gamers are being left out in more ways than one. It seems like all the games get to the point, end game or whatever, that the result depends on physical rather than cerebral activity.
I believe I can still think a little. (Opinions vary). But the newer games don't cater to that. Let's figure out how to do that (whatever it is) VS finger speed and coordination. Hmm, I wonder which is vastly more popular, for some reason.
All I want is an MMORPG that has an RPG feeling to it. Like when i used to play the Final Fantasys and Legend of Dragoon and all those kind of rpgs for some reason even though we had a path to follow it always felt like an adventure for some reason. The group you're in it was just for some reason very exciting and I wish that type of feeling was in mmorpgs. MMORPGS now days are simply getting too pathy. I am getting bored of having to take a stupid quest and the only other choice if you don't take the quest is kill senseless monsters and level slower than the rest. I want a game where my missions mean something to me.. I mean when is the last time in an mmorpg have you got a quest and actually read the reason they want you to kill 12 frogs? I mean i'm so sick of it every mmorpg even if i just start it.. I click all the quests i see "12 frogs" i kill 12 frogs and turn in the quest, the story is always a piece of crap and never even important or immersive. ULTIMATELY I WANT THE DECISION TO BE EVIL. I am sick of the "we all have to protect the lands from evil, and go on every quest the npcs give us". I think what I want is interactive npcs that I can kill weather it be in town or not, I want an open world with no instances so I feel that i can go anywhere at any time instead of seeing words on my screen and a black background and then i'm somehwere else. I want to actually find a group of people that stay together...and are like a band of adventures and that is what these mmorpgs are missing that rpgs had. I don't know if any of you have felt it but that is the ultimate line between the mmorpgs and the rpgs... in rpgs when you were in a group of friends you felt apart of something...you were adventurers and thats what final fantasy 7 had and all the other rpgs... imagine being cloud but without the group.. imagine how boring that game would be....In this respect its not really the games fault or is it? Tell me if this does not appeal to you.....
A mmorpg where you log in you're in a town you're doing quests and everything and then once you reach level 10 or something you are given a quest where you get to choose be a loner who can join with other groups as you please or the people you have in you're party right now will be bound to you as adventurers almost like a family. In this scenario all you're quests will be done with you're adventurers like Cloud and all of his friends where there wonte be a "Hey man i'm joining a party and its full", or "later man, I'm making a party to go fight a dragon" (because you're too low level.)
I think levels in these games are to an extent KILLING these mmorpgs... I cannot COUNT HOW MANY FRIENDS I HAVE LOST BECAUSE OF IT. When you get beneath you're friends levels.. you're no longer adventurers... You don't party with one another unless hes going out of his way to help you because you're weak...you are no longer a team and most of the time will not even be playing with him because of the level difference and you are useless. I once played a game where me and my friends were all around the same level but because of school I was playing only on weekends and sometimes I just couldn't even play on the weekends. I come back to see how their doing... i'm level 20 now and they are 60+ now I'm useless, they have no time to chat with me, partying with me is useless because i'm a noob,quite simply i am left behind and no longer apart of the adventure and I lose the feeling to even want to play because levels hold everything...
I have been on the other side too and have felt it.. me being a high level with low level friends because they didn't have enough time to play = "delete from friends list" lol the cruel truth is I no longer had any use for him. What could a guy who took a break from the game at level 15 and i'm level 75 do for me or do with me? He's quite simply useless and all he can do is beg for help. Levels need to be taken out of mmorpgs and replaced with skills.
They need to take out Quests that you have to do to get anywhere in the game in ways of equipment.. actually i'm skipping all this detail and listing what my problem with mmorpgs are but they will never be changed and is just in my fantasy because of majority of people can't handle it or don't prefer it but I know what I want and most people "want" without knowing what it is that they "want"
1.TRUE FREEDOM: Do what ever quests I want, and kill anyone I want in any place, and any time and that includes towns... not being able to do this makes me feel like theres an invisible wall
2.No Levels: I want everything based on skill, such as maybe the more i use a skill the better I am at it, the stronger that skill will be, and simply how long i've been playing the game.
3.People Grouped Together For Adventure: This is my private wish, but I am bored of partying with difernt people everyday.. and a guild does not remedy this because most of them like to party with differnt people besides the people that are actually in their guild and they cannot be considered you're adventurers think about how far away they are from you most of the time....
4.More Freedom: I want the choice of being evil, neutral, or good and I want these to only be effected by my actions in game.
LAST BUT NOT LEAST 5. a BETTER COMMUNITY: The mmorpgs are mostly effected because of the community..unlike in rpgs where for some reason for the most part you liked you're group but in mmorpgs its full of whiners. Bottom line I think is they need more 18+ mmorpgs...the games are growing too childish for me and I'm not even old. I'm sick of the "i'm not partying with you cause i dont't like you for no reason attitude". Or the "you typed something I dislike so i'm going to type back and make you the enemy so everyone else in the chat can join in against you for no reason because it had nothing to do with them" attitude. There just plain and simply needs to be more 18+ mmorpgs or maybe a mature meter you have to take before you can even play that particular game. The way the community is with everyone with their own minds its hard to feel immersed in the game it doesn't have that "We are a team and forever will be a team" attitude or "I am a loner and forever will kill those i wish and those I don't wish attidue". Back when I played Lineage II in the beginning it felt like this to me.. There would be people you would see together ALL THE TIME. You would see them leveling, killing other players together, questiong together as if they were bound or something, Even I Had Friends That I Would quest, level, and kill players with it just felt so immersive. Its partly the community's fault that mmorpgs are no longer immersive.If I can't feel immersed in an mmorpg with real people give me an AI, so I can type back to a program and we can play online together, level together, chat with one another, and kill players together.
OK i'm done.... just woke up less than an hour ago... hungry... gonna go eat... Laterz.
Comments
Hey OP, remember this level of choice?
"Lord British has been killed!!! Lord British has been killed!!!!"
Ah jeeez... I remember when that occured, it shook the (then) small MMORPG community to the core, LOL!
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
/shrug
I grew up in the 'ole AD&D days and still enjoy newer mmos. The preset adventures available in modern mmos simply remind of adventuring through modules like they had in the pencil and paper days.
There is nothing stopping you fom rp'ing in these newer mmos or setting up your own player or guild events separate from what the game has going on. People do it all the time.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
+1 OP, Fully Agree
Mess with the best, Die like the rest
Like you, I used to want to be very immersed in a MMORPG and wanted to be part of a living, virtual world. At some point though, it changed and I didn't want to be immersed anymore, I began to understand the "casual player" more. I also appreciate WoW now in the sense, that it's great Diablo 2.5 or Diablo Worlds or whatever. It also suits me well now as I don't really want to get into the virtual world, I spent time on other stuff too much. I can't even get immersed anymore, I guess. It's more because of how the games are, though. There's so many of us casual players in the genre nowdays, that there's not much space left for real RPG nerds, who want to be sucked in an immersive virtual world for hours. I don't mean that as an insult, I'm nerd in many ways, just not RPG anymore. Also getting older has probably huge part in all this, RPG's and shooters changed to turn-based strategy games. Taste also becomes more demanding due time, perhaps the current games, in reality, aren't that bad after all.
Well, my point is, I guess, that the games themselves aren't the problem, it's the players that are completely different and much more numerous compared to 10 years ago and MUD players etc. It's easy forget that and put the blame on game developers. Game developer does what he is told so he can earn his living, often times though he has interest in making a good game, but it's most likely some big boss making the decisions, who only cares about money and money is a lot easier to get from casual playerbase, than hardcore roleplayers. Only indie studios put out games, that appeal to the minority, as they don't need as much players to be profitable. They, of course, have some issues with resources and knowledge as you may have noticed with Mortal Online and Darkfall and so on.
More people, more money has the tendency to harm a lot of stuff, I've noticed the pattern with a lot art forms and hobbies etc. Gotta just live with, I guess. There's bound to always happen something good once in a while, just gotta wait and see. Most of the old games are still around though, and I don't know if you consider EVE an old or current game, it's very fine MMORPG anyway.
Well, my point is, I guess, that the games themselves aren't the problem, it's the players that are completely different and much more numerous compared to 10 years ago and MUD players etc.Like you, I used to want to be very immersed in a MMORPG and wanted to be part of a living, virtual world. At some point though, it changed and I didn't want to be immersed anymore, I began to understand the "casual player" more. I also appreciate WoW now in the sense, that it's great Diablo 2.5 or Diablo Worlds or whatever. It also suits me well now as I don't really want to get into the virtual world, I spent time on other stuff too much. I can't even get immersed anymore, I guess. It's more because of how the games are, though. There's so many of us casual players in the genre nowdays, that there's not much space left for real RPG nerds, who want to be sucked in an immersive virtual world for hours. I don't mean that as an insult, I'm nerd in many ways, just not RPG anymore. Also getting older has probably huge part in all this, RPG's and shooters changed to turn-based strategy games. Taste also becomes more demanding due time, perhaps the current games, in reality, aren't that bad after all.
Well, my point is, I guess, that the games themselves aren't the problem, it's the players that are completely different and much more numerous compared to 10 years ago and MUD players etc.Like you, I used to want to be very immersed in a MMORPG and wanted to be part of a living, virtual world. At some point though, it changed and I didn't want to be immersed anymore, I began to understand the "casual player" more. I also appreciate WoW now in the sense, that it's great Diablo 2.5 or Diablo Worlds or whatever. It also suits me well now as I don't really want to get into the virtual world, I spent time on other stuff too much. I can't even get immersed anymore, I guess. It's more because of how the games are, though. There's so many of us casual players in the genre nowdays, that there's not much space left for real RPG nerds, who want to be sucked in an immersive virtual world for hours. I don't mean that as an insult, I'm nerd in many ways, just not RPG anymore. Also getting older has probably huge part in all this, RPG's and shooters changed to turn-based strategy games. Taste also becomes more demanding due time, perhaps the current games, in reality, aren't that bad after all.
Well, my point is, I guess, that the games themselves aren't the problem, it's the players that are completely different and much more numerous compared to 10 years ago and MUD players etc.
I think the op shows exactly where the disconnect lies not just between developers and players but between the "older" players and younger players. Especially those of us who grew up playing pen and paper RPGs like D&D.
You can only have that kind of self-directed play when you've got a real person who can change their minds at a moment's notice leading the parade. So long as you're playing against a computer, you cannot ever have that kind of play. It's been that way since the first Final Fantasy game, you got led around by the nose through their overblown story whether you wanted to or not, with a mere veneer of "choice". Eventually, you're going to do what they pre-programmed you to do or you're going to stop playing. There are no other options.
If you want to go back to the tabletop experience, you have to go back to the tabletop and leave the computer out of the equation.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
I think there are numerous reasons why MMOs are no longer the 'adventures' they used to be:
1. There are far more casual gamers in the MMO market than before. These people don't want to create their own adventures and are quite happy playing through one that someone else has created. They would've never even considered playing a pnp game like D&D and probably like the social and achievement (kit-grind) elements of MMOs far more than the lore, immersion or freedom aspects.
2. Given the amount of resources it takes to develop a modern computer game of any substance, companies are going to tend to invest in games that will attract lots of players or at least make some form of profit. It seems, as far as developers/investors are concerned, there just simply aren't enough old skool MMO gamers out there to make it worth building a game for. That's why players who don't like 'theme-park MMOs' end up playing games like Darkfall, with graphics from the 1940s.
3. The novelty of being in a virtual gameworld has gone. I'm sure players used to think "Wow, I can wash my virtual clothes and sharpen my virtual sword in this game - how exciting!" Nowadays, I get the feeling that players just want to get straight into the action. The definition of action varies from one person to another; some like dressing their character up, some like combat, some like collecting a load of fancy stuff and some just like tackling quests with their pals. But to return to my first point, how many people actually want to sit there for hours on end, designing, building and managing their own detailed fantasy? My guess is: not enough. Other in-game activities seem to have fallen by the wayside too, things like crafting. Now I read posts all the time from players who love crafting and wish the days of XYZ would come again so they can return to their former crafting glory. However, I bet most players couldn't give a toss. If a developer came out with a genuinely fun way of making stuff that actually felt like it had some value, I'm sure people would get back into this activity but as it stands, crafting just doesn't appeal to people.
I feel it's this lack of interest in certain elements of gameplay, combined with the significant development effort required to make these elements fun is what's led to where we are today. I'm not saying I'm happy with the current situation at all, that's just my 2 cents.
Aryas
Aryasthink there are numerous reasons why MMOs are no longer the 'adventures' they used to be:
1. There are far more casual gamers in the MMO market than before. These people don't want to create their own adventures and are quite happy playing through one that someone else has created. They would've never even considered playing a pnp game like D&D and probably like the social and achievement (kit-grind) elements of MMOs far more than the lore, immersion or freedom aspects.
2. Given the amount of resources it takes to develop a modern computer game of any substance, companies are going to tend to invest in games that will attract lots of players or at least make some form of profit. It seems, as far as developers/investors are concerned, there just simply aren't enough old skool MMO gamers out there to make it worth building a game for. That's why players who don't like 'theme-park MMOs' end up playing games like Darkfall, with graphics from the 1940s.
3. The novelty of being in a virtual gameworld has gone. I'm sure players used to think "Wow, I can wash my virtual clothes and sharpen my virtual sword in this game - how exciting!" Nowadays, I get the feeling that players just want to get straight into the action. Now action varies from one person to another; some like dressing their character up, some like combat, some like collecting a load of fancy stuff and some just like tackling quests with their pals. But to return to my first point, how many people actually want to sit there for hours on end, designing, building and managing their own detailed fantasy? Other in-game activities seem to have fallen by the wayside too, things like crafting. Now I read posts all the time from players who love crafting and wish the days of XYZ would return so they could return to their former crafting glory. However, I bet most players couldn't give a toss. If a developer came out with a genuinely fun way of making stuff that actually felt like it had some value, I'm sure people would get back into this activity but as it stands, crafting just doesn't appeal to people.
I feel it's this lack of interest in certain elements of gameplay, combined with the development effort required to make these elements fun that's lead to where we are today. That's just my 2 cents.
Aryas
Playing: Ableton Live 8
~ ragequitcancelsubdeletegamesmashcomputerkillself ~
It's that way these days because in MMORPGs now, the only real way of progression is via main quests and such. To do things otherwise is to rip out the heart out of your character's progression in XPs and even equipment (miss out on quest reward items).
To put it bluntly, if you want to do things outside the main quest, the rewards just aren't there. You WILL do it the devs' way or get the big F-U from the game's design.
As far as progression goes, there used to be a game design where the player character got specific XPs for certain actions. Successful use of a pistol got you pistol XPs; Successful use of a rifle got you rifle XPs; Succesfully making a set of armor got you armorsmith XPs; etc.
And the game world? Giving the players tools do make things happen on their own and in their community is a start. Being able to build your own character's house out in the wild and away from the big towns / cities. Being able to issue bounties on players. Being able to take control of zones (PvP) with bonafide effects for controlling / losing them. Random NPC faction clashes that the player can witness or partake in, or any faction play elements to get players active, especially for PvP.
On and on.
It doesn't have to be done with quests, i.e. text bubbles telling a person what to exactly do. An immersive game world where the players are granted freedom in doing things by themselves or with the group.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
The disconnect is between the inarticulate ramblings of the player base and the inability of publishers to listen to anything that they don't think will make them money. The disconnect is also between what the players are obviously paying for and what they are saying they want to pay for on random internet forums.
Individual developers might make a game they want to play, but Producers, Publishers and Investors are going to finance what they think will make money. They try to figure out what will make money by looking at the games that didn't make money and the games that did. Then they look at how much money. What makes money? Lots of money? Story driven, single player RPG/FPS games with a multiplayer component, WoW, Puzzle games and Facebook games. None of the games that actually make money (except Eve, which took years of post release development) are even close to what the OP described. Anything more player directed and less story driven like a single player game is going to have to come from Indie publishers until there are multiple successful games. One successful game in the genre (Eve) isn't going to convince people with lots of money to invest.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I know and understand your pain OP.
I've been uplinked and downloaded, I've been inputted and outsourced. I know the upside of downsizing, I know the downside of upgrading.
I'm a high-tech low-life. A cutting-edge, state-of-the-art, bi-coastal multi-tasker, and I can give you a gigabyte in a nanosecond.
I'm new-wave, but I'm old-school; and my inner child is outward-bound.
I'm a hot-wired, heat-seeking, warm-hearted cool customer; voice-activated and bio-degradable.
RIP George Carlin.
Great post. I wish I had more to add but its all prety much covered in the OP
Torrential: DAOC (Pendragon)
Awned: World of Warcraft (Lothar)
Torren: Warhammer Online (Praag)
As a long time DnD player, I agree with the OP's sentiment. However, I see very few ways to make an MMO that interactive. Accounting for every player choice requires a human GM. BioWare's games have a lot of choice, but hardly the infinite choice of a human player. I just don't think it's possible without a sentient computer.
Important facts:
1. Free to Play games are poorly made.
2. Casuals are not all idiots, but idiots call themselves casuals.
3. Great solo and group content are not mutually exclusive, but they suffer when one is shoved into the mold of the other. The same is true of PvP and PvE.
4. Community is more important than you think.
I think you're forgetting that game developers are borne from the gaming community, and the majority of today's gamers have been heavily influenced by consoles.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
This is an interesting discussion.
Simply put, I don't think any AI is ready for table and paper like video RPG, let alone MMORPG for that matter. It all has to be scripted so far, so when designing (and playing) video games, of any kind, people should think more of movies than pen-and-paper RPG. Think "determined outcome(s)", think not imagination (at least, not yours).
I agree there are some interesting examples. I don't think sandboxes, including EVE, are relevant. Nothing is bound to happen unless players do it, while in RPG, the DM (dungeon master) is supposed to give life to all the NPCs and environments. A DM is like a dedicated writer/director in real time for your party. No DM, no classic RPG, I don't think that obstacle can be circumvented that easily. EVE, sandboxes, are something else. It's more like "collective RPG" (read: massively blabla RPG) without DM. (note: very interesting, i love'em, just not what i had in vintage paper RPG).
That being said, there are ways. At least theoretically. It is perhaps possible to program viable virtual DMs, should that be a goal for a studio, even though I imagine it would be a massive undertaking as of today. Yet I think building a virtual DM AI assisting players in their evolution in the world is much more interesting than building a hundred fixed and repetitive quests, but that's just me. Though I believe the future is there: dynamic creation of content (on-the-fly), depending on certain conditions (players caracs, time, faction standing, weather...) on the PvE side of things. Let's not forget that RPG is mainly a PvE thing.
In the future, if devs are able to make AIs more relevant, more complex, and not just object-based: a mob has an AI, but whole ecosystems and quest systems could also be AI-managed, so that the world (or parts of it) changes according to players actions, day after month after year. This one is polluted by crafting. This one is filled with dark magic monsters. This one is a cut-throat. This one is political. And so on.
The freedom of choice you're given as a player is only equal to the number of possibilities that a program allows you to do. There is a calculable range of outcomes for every action. It's the matrix, really. And I don't believe that video games ever gave more freedom than they do in the 2000's. Certainly not in the 1980's, however fantastic those years of gaming seemed to us. We made the stories and illusions of choices, the game were just, at most, "books in which you are the hero", certainly not dynamic or adaptive worlds albeit to a very limited extent (read: computer resources).
So I hear you Hokie, but I'm more optimistic. I think our graal lies somewhere in the future. I don't think our ideal video game RPG, let alone MMORPG, can be made as of today. Think 2015, maybe. I put my money on the second part of this decade.
What I wrote about wasnt so much the type of choice and complexity of it, but more about the loss of choice and the fact that someone who isnt me deciding what I would like best. Kinda really F'd up when you think about it.
No, that was kinda my whole point.
It was the fact that the current generation of new(er) game developers are basing new MMO game development off of their experiences, which is mostly or completely grounded in Zelda/Final Fantasy style of RPG's.
And even though I dont like the new direction, I'm not saying that its a negative. I understand that its part of the evolution (de-evolution in my eyes) of the genre.
Sadly just five to ten years ago that wasnt the case. And Im finding it harder and harder to connect to the *hyper-focused gameplay of todays new and upcomming MMO's.
What I do find most surprising is that Im not alone in my feelings. Well at least the feelings that people are empathizing with.
*Was using hyper-focused too much of an overkill, even though I choose that word to really stress just how strongly I feel about it?
"I understand that if I hear any more words come pouring out of your **** mouth, Ill have to eat every fucking chicken in this room."
Isn't the point of having a GM in a pen&paper RP adventure so someone else decides what you can and cannot do in the story? The GM's job is to put a limit on what the players can do so an interesting adventure can take place.
The theoretical GM you described was simply inexperienced. An experienced GM would have given you the illusion of choice and then still told the story he wanted to tell. If you did not want to get the quest from the mayor, he could have had a dying wanderer on the road give it instead or maybe have it originate from a mine foreman in the mountains. A little flexibility on the details that are unimportant to the players would have gotten the job done no matter how obtuse the palyers are. If the players get really impossible, you just throw bigger and bigger random encounters at them until they see sense or the characters die.
Heck, most players really do not want much of a story anyway. They are perfectly happy with a bunch of meaningless random encounters where they get to slaughter tons of orcs/goblins/bandit/dark elves and get to feel like a hero.
Some people have missed the point. I don't think the OP is asking for a new aged super cyber AI program that responds to every action a player makes. He is not looking at the future for answers but the past. In the past in games like everquest, we had small things that immersed us into the world we were playing. Those things have been lost these days.
Some people are also a bit confused about the term "hardcore", it is not the same as "old school", A game could be both pf these things, but being one does not qualify you as being the other. When people ask for a "hardcore" game, they are asking for a harsh world that does not cater to people having to "learn the game". They want high risk with equally high rewards. Darkfall and Mortal online are at the head of a "hardcore" revolution. "Old school" games are deeper, fleshed out worlds. The real deeper ones have weather seasons, a true working in game date and time, and a cohesive world. Games like Saga of Ryzom and Vanguard are at the head of the "old school" revolution.
An example of a game that belongs in both categories would be Ultima Online, and possibly even Runescape.
Lotro
Well, I remember having played MUDS in the early 90s, when most ppl did not even know about the existance of the Internet, where the AI was light years ahead of today MMO's. Mob (NPCs) would do things like fleeing, and then coming back, later, sometimes even days later, and with some friends, to chase even out of their designated areas.
Or mobs that would disarm you, and if they considered your weapon was better than what they had, use it instead, against you. Or mobs that would pickpocket your gold and then hide somewhere. Those were just a few examples.
Devs ARE able to implement advanced AIs. They have been able for decades. They just won't becouse it costs resources and time. Nowadays, when most MMOs get released pathetically unfinished and buggy, asking for advanced AIs is... dreaming.
I see the discussion here as delineating opposites, to wit, theme-park vs sandbox, older games vs new games, PC vs console, older gamers vs younger gamers. The thing that strikes me personally is the move away froms slower paced gaming (more cerebral) towards twitch gaming (reflexes and coordination, at least manual coordination).
The other day I was called an idiot in vindictus because I just couldn't coordinate my attacks/dodges against a boss and wound up getting smashed to bits. Well, the problem with a "twitch" game online is two fold: if you don't have great performance you cannot combo properly, or if you don't have a tween's reflexes, you are also toast. Which reminded me that I tried to play MW2, it was fun, but I was not any good at it. Just couldn't hit the keys right, poor reflexes. So it got old pretty fast.
Then I thought about the battles in EQ. They were always long, you had plenty of time to make moves that were important to success, but I wasn't in a situation in which if I didnt hit a key combo in the right order I was doomed. (Note I didn't do the end game dragon stuff --- from what I have read the coordination in some of those encounters needed to be very high level, but I am not talking about that).
My point is that older gamers are being left out in more ways than one. It seems like all the games get to the point, end game or whatever, that the result depends on physical rather than cerebral activity.
I believe I can still think a little. (Opinions vary). But the newer games don't cater to that. Let's figure out how to do that (whatever it is) VS finger speed and coordination. Hmm, I wonder which is vastly more popular, for some reason.
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Rose-lipped maidens,
Light-foot lads...
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All I want is an MMORPG that has an RPG feeling to it. Like when i used to play the Final Fantasys and Legend of Dragoon and all those kind of rpgs for some reason even though we had a path to follow it always felt like an adventure for some reason. The group you're in it was just for some reason very exciting and I wish that type of feeling was in mmorpgs. MMORPGS now days are simply getting too pathy. I am getting bored of having to take a stupid quest and the only other choice if you don't take the quest is kill senseless monsters and level slower than the rest. I want a game where my missions mean something to me.. I mean when is the last time in an mmorpg have you got a quest and actually read the reason they want you to kill 12 frogs? I mean i'm so sick of it every mmorpg even if i just start it.. I click all the quests i see "12 frogs" i kill 12 frogs and turn in the quest, the story is always a piece of crap and never even important or immersive. ULTIMATELY I WANT THE DECISION TO BE EVIL. I am sick of the "we all have to protect the lands from evil, and go on every quest the npcs give us". I think what I want is interactive npcs that I can kill weather it be in town or not, I want an open world with no instances so I feel that i can go anywhere at any time instead of seeing words on my screen and a black background and then i'm somehwere else. I want to actually find a group of people that stay together...and are like a band of adventures and that is what these mmorpgs are missing that rpgs had. I don't know if any of you have felt it but that is the ultimate line between the mmorpgs and the rpgs... in rpgs when you were in a group of friends you felt apart of something...you were adventurers and thats what final fantasy 7 had and all the other rpgs... imagine being cloud but without the group.. imagine how boring that game would be....In this respect its not really the games fault or is it? Tell me if this does not appeal to you.....
A mmorpg where you log in you're in a town you're doing quests and everything and then once you reach level 10 or something you are given a quest where you get to choose be a loner who can join with other groups as you please or the people you have in you're party right now will be bound to you as adventurers almost like a family. In this scenario all you're quests will be done with you're adventurers like Cloud and all of his friends where there wonte be a "Hey man i'm joining a party and its full", or "later man, I'm making a party to go fight a dragon" (because you're too low level.)
I think levels in these games are to an extent KILLING these mmorpgs... I cannot COUNT HOW MANY FRIENDS I HAVE LOST BECAUSE OF IT. When you get beneath you're friends levels.. you're no longer adventurers... You don't party with one another unless hes going out of his way to help you because you're weak...you are no longer a team and most of the time will not even be playing with him because of the level difference and you are useless. I once played a game where me and my friends were all around the same level but because of school I was playing only on weekends and sometimes I just couldn't even play on the weekends. I come back to see how their doing... i'm level 20 now and they are 60+ now I'm useless, they have no time to chat with me, partying with me is useless because i'm a noob,quite simply i am left behind and no longer apart of the adventure and I lose the feeling to even want to play because levels hold everything...
I have been on the other side too and have felt it.. me being a high level with low level friends because they didn't have enough time to play = "delete from friends list" lol the cruel truth is I no longer had any use for him. What could a guy who took a break from the game at level 15 and i'm level 75 do for me or do with me? He's quite simply useless and all he can do is beg for help. Levels need to be taken out of mmorpgs and replaced with skills.
They need to take out Quests that you have to do to get anywhere in the game in ways of equipment.. actually i'm skipping all this detail and listing what my problem with mmorpgs are but they will never be changed and is just in my fantasy because of majority of people can't handle it or don't prefer it but I know what I want and most people "want" without knowing what it is that they "want"
1.TRUE FREEDOM: Do what ever quests I want, and kill anyone I want in any place, and any time and that includes towns... not being able to do this makes me feel like theres an invisible wall
2.No Levels: I want everything based on skill, such as maybe the more i use a skill the better I am at it, the stronger that skill will be, and simply how long i've been playing the game.
3.People Grouped Together For Adventure: This is my private wish, but I am bored of partying with difernt people everyday.. and a guild does not remedy this because most of them like to party with differnt people besides the people that are actually in their guild and they cannot be considered you're adventurers think about how far away they are from you most of the time....
4.More Freedom: I want the choice of being evil, neutral, or good and I want these to only be effected by my actions in game.
LAST BUT NOT LEAST 5. a BETTER COMMUNITY: The mmorpgs are mostly effected because of the community..unlike in rpgs where for some reason for the most part you liked you're group but in mmorpgs its full of whiners. Bottom line I think is they need more 18+ mmorpgs...the games are growing too childish for me and I'm not even old. I'm sick of the "i'm not partying with you cause i dont't like you for no reason attitude". Or the "you typed something I dislike so i'm going to type back and make you the enemy so everyone else in the chat can join in against you for no reason because it had nothing to do with them" attitude. There just plain and simply needs to be more 18+ mmorpgs or maybe a mature meter you have to take before you can even play that particular game. The way the community is with everyone with their own minds its hard to feel immersed in the game it doesn't have that "We are a team and forever will be a team" attitude or "I am a loner and forever will kill those i wish and those I don't wish attidue". Back when I played Lineage II in the beginning it felt like this to me.. There would be people you would see together ALL THE TIME. You would see them leveling, killing other players together, questiong together as if they were bound or something, Even I Had Friends That I Would quest, level, and kill players with it just felt so immersive. Its partly the community's fault that mmorpgs are no longer immersive.If I can't feel immersed in an mmorpg with real people give me an AI, so I can type back to a program and we can play online together, level together, chat with one another, and kill players together.
OK i'm done.... just woke up less than an hour ago... hungry... gonna go eat... Laterz.