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The problem of CU uncovered
admriker444
Member Posts: 1,526
reposted from SWG's site before its get deleted again. This pretty much explains why SOE did the CU the way they did and why its totally screwed up.
I have tested the CU since it hit Beta and have been following the CU since publish 7.
There are a number of unexpected problems with the implementation of the CU as it stands in Live (and how it developed in beta) that do not track with the available information given over the year since it was announced.
The way the current implementation of the CU is made up has several glaring variances from the previously released info - in that there was one central item that I have identified has caused the majority of the imbalances and problems encountered with the CU.
Putting a 'level' system on top of a skill based system.
This was not in the original CU documentation released on 03/31/05, and data from public statements of sources inside the CU 'sandbox' scheme (without violating NDA) have confirmed that it was never discussed with them to the degree it was implemented.
Herein I will list the worst issues reported about the CU and show that they are all tied directly to the 'level system' implementation that was added to the functional design of the CU.
1. Crafter Death - Crafters are 1 shotted by every aggro mob on every starter planet. The fragility of crafter characters at 'combat level' 1 is extreme. Surveying alone is impossible since spawns will appear under vehicles in motion and mobs will kill crafters in less than 2 seconds.
The ability to at least run away has been removed - this makes crafters unable to function at a basic level.
The 'level' system has a damage multiplier. You will see this in further points. This damage multiplier makes anything higher level than you equivalent to instant death. Five levels above you will always kill you. Again, this point will be repeated.
Since crafters will not have any combat rating unless they become a hybrid and drop pure crafting, they will always take max damage.
Furthermore, every animal will use the damage multiplier against a base value. There is no such thing, therefore, as a 'safe' enemy for crafters.
This is the result of the 'level' system.
Before, each mob had different resists and damage ranges. They had a "threat" level, which was based on how high their offensive and defensive values were. Under the old system, that was the basis of the /con result.
This threat level has NO relationship to the current 'combat level' system, no matter what the devs claim in the HOC chat.
The threat level was an EVALUATION of an existing mob.
A 'combat level' is a MODIFICATION of a base value mob "angry bag" put into whatever 'skin' is appropriate, i.e, a level 34 dune lizard is the same as a level 34 peko peko.
The new COMBAT LEVEL defines the offensive and defensive values - not the other way around.
This is an important distinction, and is critical to understanding the conclusion about the combat level system and why it was added to the CU at such a late date.
2. XP gains and lack of same: A significant number of people are finding odd results from attacking mobs slightly below their level and higher - as in getting little to no XP. The response of the devs is to have people focus on just fighting even leveled mobs.
The real question is: Why was the XP variance put in the CU in the first place?
XP gains or rates of gains was NEVER addressed as a concern in the Combat Upgrade. It did not affect combat in any way, shape, or form in PVP, nor were there "problems" about the flavor of combat that were caused by XP being gained by anything you defeated.
It was never an issue at all.
However, in 'level' based systems, the paradigm is that LEVEL DETERMINES XP AT ALL TIMES.
In a skill based system, mobs are worth what they are worth - period.
The XP dilemma is a byproduct of the introduction of the level based combat overlay - and that is it.
It offers NO positive effects to the pace of combat, the usability and distinction of all combat professions, the tactical nature of combat - in fact, it hinders advancement. It does nothing that the CU was written to do - at all. It has no purpose.
It has nothing to do with lessening the effects of overpowered buffs and armor and does nothing to address ANY SINGLE ITEM mentioned in the CU Documentation.
It is, in fact, the unavoidable side effect of the use of the level system. It was NEVER a goal of the CU and is present ONLY because a level system was introduced.
The reason why it was is the kicker.
3. Certifications of weapons being based on level - Many people think that this was INTENDED. It was not.
This was a FIX put in to deal with the fact that the level system made xp vanish from 'low level' mobs for people grinding their 2nd elite combat prof. The 'level' system FORCED the removal of certs tied to skills. Else, a TKM attempting to grind pistols would never be able to do so as long as the level system was in place - he couldn't kill anything ever that gave him Pistol XP.
So they pulled pistols (and all other weapons) from skill boxes and tied them to 'combat levels' as a work around for this unplanned-for circumstance. They did this with all the weapons at first, then came back to address the idea of a TKM/Ranger using a beam rifle. So a very few 'iconic' weapons were tied to skill boxes.
This is a cheat.
The original design of the CU, again, had NOTHING in it about un-latching the weapons from skill boxes.
It was because - simply put - The CU Was Never To Be Level Based.
XP was therefore NEVER supposed To Be 'Gated' to mob level comparisons.
Crafters Were Never Supposed to be unable to walk outside.
Weapons Were Never to be "floating" - they were supposed to be ADDITIVE*
*(Commando/Rifleman was supposed to be able to use a beam weapon with a rifle special - ADDITIVE as in Ranged do ranged - melee does melee and the certs ADD)
So - if you've read this far - you're asking yourself "Why the hell did they put in the level system? What POSSIBLE use could it be?"
Mobs. Mobs, deadlines, and stats.
Converting all the existing mobs to be balanced before May 5th was impossible. The only explanation is that they imposed the level system on the mobs because a level system makes the generation of mobs EASY.
You have 2 types of mobs - Humanoid and Non-Humanoid. You have 2 types of each of those - melee only, and ranged primary/melee secondary.
These make each mob into an "angry bag" that can have a skin thrown on it, and the level system DEFINES THE DAMAGE DONE AT ALL TIMES TO ANYONE.
Quick. Easy. Fast.
No coding 350 different 'species' each with different xp values, resists, and attack values (not to mention individual, named mobs). Just a bag with a level, attack subroutine, and a skin on it. Damage multipliers (remember those?) will automatically generate "challenge". Damage mitigation due to level differences will SIMULATE weakening defenses.
Bam. Done.
Quick. Easy. Fast.
And WORTHLESS.
That's what they did. That's the MAIN problem with the CU.
Take out the level system - leaving everything else in - and you have a viable product. You have crafters able to run away from things even without buffs and armor
You have people able to still use the weapons they expect to use.
And you won't encounter people UNABLE to progress in their profession.
You have to do one thing though - you have to work on mobs and MAKE THEM WORK RIGHT.
It takes time which they claim they don't have.
The Level system is like putting wallpaper over a broken window.
It's a cheap easy and BAD fix that made more problems than they understood.
Without it, the CU would work.
With it, SWG is dead.
Comments
Quitted the game just before the CU went live as I could see where it was heading and really have had enough of the train wreck that is SWG.
I appears that many more folks have quit the game shortly after the CU was implemented with the only folks remaining being those who PvP exclusively (these are the most vocal supporters of the CU btw), and those who are hoping that SOE changes the CU for something a bit more playable for non-combatants.
I seriously doubt that SOE will ever admit defeat and make the necessary changes required to make the game playable again, and are banking on an influx of players on the back of Ep3. With all the bad publicity though that the CU changes are getting (it's even appeared in Slashdot and PCGamer), the chances of this influx happening are receding everyday.
And with nearly the whole veteran population going as well, they are being left with servers full of ghost cities, with NPC cities being ringed by burning fields of harvestors and the houses of long gone players littering the countryside (most with anti-SOE messages left in the house titles). Its a mess and it ain't going to get any better.
I guess my whole guild already cancelled their account, but hey i'm not giving up.
scientology
I have to agree with all that is writen here.I have played swg for over a year and it was going great untill the CU update which has destroyed all that i aimed for spending many hours grinding away (and getting grief from my other half) only for this update to mess it all up.I have spent two to three days trying it out and the more i play it the more hacked off i get with it.I have to spend most of my time fighting in my underpants because i can't use the armour i had and now i can't find any for my TKM to use.Also with my TKM being MELEE based (it was last time i looked) i now find i can use a rifle that for some weird reason (i don't have any marksman skills) i can do more damage with it then my melee weapons.As for my skills in doctor(i'm master doc) they are worth less do yourself a favor if your thinking of buying a mmorpg don't choose SWG untill the cu update is removed.I only hope they remove it sooner rather then later yours ETOO DARKBLADE TKM MASTER MEDIC/DOCTOR NOVICE BRAWLER the force was with me now it's gone!!!!!
I bought the game a month before the CU patch and decided to hold off playing it until the CU was out. Currently I'm still a newbie but it doesn't seem as bad as people are saying it is. I think it's because people don't like such a drastic change in the game that they were playing for the last year or so, but I haven't experienced any upper-level content so I can't say for sure.
From what I heard, the old system was very broken. People were taking on con red mobs all day long without any trouble and doctor/entertainer buffs pretty much made you nigh invincible. And people who were Jedi would go around killing everyone in sight in PvP because they were unstoppable.
Well I did sign up about 2 months before the CU came out. Mastered 1 and a half professions, TK being the mastered one. I was pretty po'ed at what they did to TK, they really nuetered them BAD. But since they let me respec I found a new combination that I actually love even better then TK/Sword. I think the CU overall was a good thing. I also feel it was needed, however implementing levels into it was just stupid to me, thats the part that makes me mad. Mad enough to leave the game or gripe about it for a month, no.
They obviously have alot of work ahead of them to clean up this new system they have implemented if they choose too, but the system is no more flawed to me then the old one. And btw, you mistated how the game works. You do not need to kill something higher level then you to gain experience. It has to be 5 levels below you or higher to gain experience, so you can gain, and missions are giving VERY healthy experience right now if you had tried that instead of roaming and looking for already spawned nests your level. I suggest picking the middle paying mission, that will make the mobs con about even to you.
My suggestion would be to not struggle trying to do things the way you used too and find a new fun way o doing them. Thats why I gave up TK after 1 day, I would have only remained bitter if I had stayed one. Now I am more happy with my profession then I was to start with, Master Combat Medic / Commando has been very fun for me.
Jedi however I do feel sorry for, since they obviously can't just take another profession to fix their wo's. They got nerfed pretty bad, all I can say to that is, sorry, and you didn't belong in the game to begin with.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
Sort of off topic:this reminds me of AO ur alright by urself untill lvl 24 then u hit a new ground u can 1 on 1 the mobs sum times 2 on 1 but the second a 3rd cums u die very quickly there for made to team hunt even though the teams i useally get stuck in are with retards.Its very annoying so i see what ur saying.Anyway gd luck with starwars,i shud b gettin it soon n not b too botherd about it because i havent played the old Combat system.lets just hope they tweek it so i can solo hunt being in teams is sum times ok but i perfer to solo so i dnt have to worry about any 1 but myself.
Luv jim
I think if you asked anyone that is against the combat upgrade, if the old system needed to be fixed... they'd say yes. It did need to be fixed, but we didn't need to be given a whole new game.
For me, it's not that they took away my uber toys... I didn't have any "uber" toys to begin with. My one toon was a Master Dancer and Master Creature Handler, with Novice Rifle. I didn't have anything special on him. The most "special" things I had were my rare pets in my collection. All of them were turned into generic copies of normal creatures. If you had played a creature handler pre-cu, you'd understand the work and dedication it took to get some of the rarest of creatures in the galaxie. Then, to just have them turned into bantha poodoo over night was quite disheartening. This is also not to mention that when I logged in this toon, I couldn't even move from my spot until I surrendered some skills in rifle so that I was no longer negative in skill points. So, the combat upgrade made me even weaker than I was before with no chance of really fixing it since there is no way in hell I'd ruin my roleplay character by dropping the two professions that made him special.
OK, so hopefully the above made sense
Now, my other "major" toon was a Teras Kasi Master and Master Doctor. I became TKM not because it was uber, but because it was one of the most graceful and beautiful to watch professions. Also, as a doctor, I never sat in the star ports buffing people... I picked up doctor because my friends were doing the force sensitive grind and I figured it would help them out to have a master at hand. Well, those friends I made this toon for all quit. Teras Kasi is now a joke and not even nice to look at. The moves are awful and the sounds of the game are undescribeable. As far as doctor, well, I don't play SWG to use magic healing and feel like a cleric.
The whole magic aspect of the new game is one thing that I believe upsets a lot of the hardcore SWG fans. Why do we have particle effects shooting out are arses when we get onto bikes now? Why are we using magical powers to heal people? Why are we surrounded by bright lights when we kill something?
It's just ridiculous.
I am happy that I cancelled... as much as I loved the game it is sad, but I really can't deal with all the new bugs, it's not the change, it's the new bugs and inbalance they created. They will be fixing this game for another 2 years, if it even lasts that long.
Anyway, sorry if this post didn't make sense. I'm still working on getting in the morning coffee
Firstly, I had a LOT of fun in SWG this weekend. I was finally able to do some of the things that I wasn't able to do before like go to the SWB and take on some Battle Droids (which had an insane difficulty level before).
There is a VERY simple solution to the crafter/entertainer "one shot kill" issue that a lot of people are having. At least, I hope it's simple: make entertainer/crafter skillpoints different from combat skillpoints.
Most other MMORPGs allow for players to pick up a tradeskill along with their main combat skill. It's really quite simple and it has been shown to help the in-game economies immensely (more producers, self-sufficient players, great ways of making $$$).
This way, entertainers can pick up combat skills (or choose not to if they don't want to live
) and survive when they're planting harvesters.
I concur .. also had a lot of fun in game during the weekend. And was surprised to see so many people online.
Its fun tinkering with your template without the need to grind ...
NOW give me some asteroid ore so I can build some of the new space fighters :-)
Have fun
Erillion
you all are missing the point of the original post. This was a crafter based game. Now thanks to the damage mutliplier system, thats all gone. All ubber armor, weapons, loot, etc are pointless now.
You spent 6 months and 75 million getting skil tapes to become a 12 point smith, congrats but now its pointless.
You spent 6 months grinding force sensitive skills to become a 12 point smith, again congrats but ubber items are pointless.
You spent 2 yrs grinding to finally, finally, finally get jedi...congrats but oh now you sux worse than a novice brawler.
So for those enjoying it now, be prepared to cancel after a month when the realization sinks in that you can never improve your character. The realization that even two yrs effort will make you exactly the same as a newb. Enjoy pfft
Odd, I am playing it and have no desire to do crafting so where does that leave me admirker? And yet again, jedi don't belong in the game, and it was far to easy to become one considering the rarity they SHOULD have been in. Jedi will be reflected FAR more properly now since we have to have them in the game to begin with.
Note: Also, if all you got out of that post you pasted into here from the SWG forum was that its a crafting game, then I think you completely missed alot of points in it.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
Thats why I am no longer a TKM, they class needs alot of re-re-balancing. I moved to Master CM / Commando and I was able to solo 2 -3 mobs very near my level.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
I beleive one that wears battle armor which would be any marksman line, combat medic, and so on. If I remember right from what I read the heavy armor (assault armor) is best against kinetic, but I may be mistaken. Medium armor (battle armor) however has the best all around stats period. Its about equal protection in all damage types.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World