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A MMO based on actual (historical) Magic?
Balkon
Member Posts: 83
I've been around on the MMO scene for a while, and lately I've lost most of my interest in Fantasy MMOs. It's not that I don't enjoy a good fantasy theme, but it's just that fantasy themes don't seem to be very good anymore. So lately I've been looking around at Sci-fi games and MMOs for a change of scenery.
But I got to thinking... How could a new MMO stick with a magic theme, but also make it unique? I thought about it for a while, and heres some things I would like to see different.
(EDIT: I'm not saying this game wouldn't be considered fantasy, I'm just talking about basing it off of more complex magical traditions)
1. Why barbarians?
I know that magic and realism don't mix, but lets just try magic and some hypothetical logic.
Do you really think a Barbarian could stand against a skilled wizard at any time? That's like bringing a knife to a gunfight, except a wizard has powers even greater than a gun. In a hypothetical world of magic, magic would dominate the world (Just like technology dominates our world) and the Barbarians and retards would just be the laborers, not the heros.
Know I know that alot of people like being melee characters... But seriously, it's been done to death, and I think it's something that needs to be put to rest. This MMO would be for people who like the concept of magic and all it's possibilities. Not the generic "warrior/cleric/mage."
EDIT: Sure, a barbarian COULD kill a wizard, but that would probably be just as common in a magical world as people beating each other to death with blunt objects in a world of technology, only the psychos would try it and eventually get put away by people with guns (Cops) in contrast with wizards that have magic.
2. Make magic more complex, base it off the real traditions.
Another thing I think should be done, is a higher emphasis on the REAL magical traditions in human history, not the distorted version that started with D&D, and has been duplicated ever since. Here are just SOME examples of traditions and practices that could be used in a game like this.
Alchemy - Very little people know what alchemy actually was. It was NEVER about making potions like in WoW. It was both a philosophy (a very interesting philosophy at that), a physical practice (pre-chemistry, turning lead to gold) and a symbolic spiritual tradition (perfecting yourself). An MMO could use all of the beautiful Alchemical art and concepts ever since Ancient Egypt all the way up to Newtons time and creatively add them into a magical system.
Witchcraft - Similiar to Alchemy but a little more emphasis on darker magics, although there are "white witches" who practice white magic as well.
Theurgy - A ritualistic system of meditation and prayer from the Hermeticist tradition (Who also practiced alchemy) that has to do with becoming one with the divine (Kind of like white magic).
Goetia - Sometimes seen as the opposite of Theurgy. A ritualistic system of conjuring spirits/demons from the other side to do your bidding. (Black magic)
Astrology - No, not horoscopes, actual astrology was a pretty cool concept. Just imagine if all the magic of the MMO itself was effected by the alignment of certain planets and stars and everyone had to adapt to it? It would take actual THINKING instead of just mindlessly hitting "Fireball... Fireball.... Fireball... Iceblast..."
3. Magic actually challenging
In this type of MMO, there would be less emphasis on leveling up your character, and more emphasis on actually learning how to use magic. There would be certain magic words that you have to say in certain orders to do the spells. It could even use a customization system like.
Of course the system would be much more complex than this and have many more possibilities, but heres just a little example of it.
Magic words: Eth = Damage spell, Or = ranged, Dith = Fire damage.
So to cast a fire spell it would be Eth-Or-Dith. And there would be tons of magic words and combinations that you'd be free to experiment with, and once you perfected them you would be welcome to set them as a macro. The magic word system would just add some intuitiveness to spell casting rather than feeling like your casting spells that people made for you. Add reagents, implement the Astrology system, and the magic words, and you got a pretty complex spellcasting system there!
EDIT: To the people who think the macros would just turn it into a clicky game because everyone would post all the best possibilities on the net as soon as they learned them - There are ways that the developers could work around that like -
A. Every character has their own unique combinations.
B. Different astrological shifts (that happen every, week or so?) would change the combinations, forcing people to constantly adapt and try new things. Magic shouldn't be easy. (I know a lot of people think this idea would be a pain in the ass, but guess what, alot of the best MMOs and games had alot of aspects that people considered a pain in the ass, like EQ and UO, and those are praised as some of the best MMOs of all time.)
To sum it all up, an MMO with a more traditional supernatural/esoteric feel, rather than the typical Fantasy feel that is somewhat of a bastardization of the actual concepts. I'm not saying they would have to follow the traditions and time periods completely. Of course, they could get creative and add cool things, like entire cities that are powered by magic.
There could even be 3 factions, those who practice Divine magic, those who dabble in the Arcane, and those who practice Dark Magic.
Tell me what you think, and by the way, if there is already a game out there similar this (MMO or not) let me know I'd like to play it.
(EDITS: I took out the K's from Magic because some people thought for some reason that I am an Occultist or something that follows some guy who invented the word. So to prevent anymore misunderstandings from the more sensitive people, I took the K's out and cleared up a couple misconceptions.)
Comments
sigh...well, the idea of basing a games magic system off of actual historically recorded traditions of times long passed (hopefully) would be interesting, but you used the unfortunate spelling of "Magick" which is as far as I know, currently associated with a man named a British occultist named Aleister Crowley. As far as I can tell, "Magick" isn't the best way to describe traditional magic beliefs and given the imaginative nature of fiction, people can do just fine with creating their own magic systems. All the little details aren't really important, unless you are trying to fill out the lore in a game and that just doesn't seem to be important in most games without a preformed lore (duh) that would work with this kind of system.
I am all for making combat more intellectual but don't try tying it with actual (hopefully archeic) beliefs. I think it is just asking for too much trouble (and I know for certain that people still believe this occult stuff... so my hopefullies in earlier parentheses aren't really worth anything to the argument.)
having trouble figuring out what I am really getting at?...irl science rules, not creepy occultist mumbo jumbo (and no, this wouldn't be the argument if you had left out the "k" at the end of "magick"). in game, magic is fine.
I used to TL;DR, but then I took a bullet point to the footnote.
base it off the necrocomicon
To the caterpillar it is the end of the world, to the master, it is a butterfly.
If you are refering to H.P. Lovecraft, then I have to say this: ...first, I am surprised a lovecraft inspired MMO hasn't shown up, second, ...creepy...awesome...creepy...I can't decide...
I used to TL;DR, but then I took a bullet point to the footnote.
Coincidentally, just the other day I was musing over what kind of MMO I would make if I had the credentials to make one, and a Lovecraftian MMO would be on the top of my list.
"I am the weapon that strikes/In the hearts of men I thrive/Feeding their fear with lies/I will devour/I will divide/I am the god of hellfire/inside every man there lives a liar/before their gods they cower/I will divide/I will devour" - "Divide Devour" by Iced Earth
Yep, you pretty much summed it up grimm6th.
The reason that MMOs and Computer games in general go with the "Fantasy" version of Magic... instead of the "actual Magick". Is that... well, most of us believe there isn't any "actual Magick".
A good portion of what the ancients believed to be "Magick", we recognize as science, chemistry, etc. today. Hence, if you want players flinging Fireballs (or Eth-Or-Diths) in your MMO... you've got to turn to the realm of Fantasy.
And, just so I can complete the trifecta; there is no Santa Claus or Tooth Fairy either. The Easter Bunny however; is entirely real, and very scary.
The problem is, they usually don't create their own magic systems.
It's just, Fireball, Fireblast, Firewave, Iceball, Icenova etc. Sure theres sometimes lore to it, but actually making magic and ART within the game rather than just a type of skill.
I'm talking about creatively following the actual stages of old folk Magic, like alchemy Calcination, conflaguration etc. which would make magic more intuitive.
In all essence I was talking about a theme switch, from "elves and fairies" to "creepy occultist mumbo jumbo".
Damn, it's funny how easily offended you got. I'm talking about a GAME theme based on mythic lore and you say stuff like "science rules"? Because I put a K after magic? It's been a common way of labeling historical magic. Even elder scrolls has "Magicka".
Occultist stuff is just art to me, like any other cave painting or monument, and the fact that it offended you so much is funny. It makes it seem like you're religious fanatic. Hell, it's people like you that are probably the reason games haven't been free to base themselves off of real mystic traditions. Art is art, history is history.
Dude, calm down.
What did you just read the title and not read the post?
You don't have to believe it's real for it to be a theme in a game. There are plenty of games about Greek Mythology, do you have to believe in those to play them?
I figured it didn't occur in games as described because it would be incredibly slow and boring.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Nah just more complicated.
That's probably the closest you'll ever get to one (Secret World?).
Kenneth Grant has written much about the Necronomicon and Magick. Alan Moore has written Promethia which is very superheroes+ magick (especially the middle issues 3,4 where they cllimb the Tree of Life) He is currently writing Neonomicon which is Lovecraft+magick.
Crowley's The Vision and the Voice has some great visionary settings.There was a Golden Dawn desktop RPG once. It was a source book (Pagan Publishing 1004) for the Call of Cthulhu games from Chaosium.
I think the problem with making a game based on real magic is that it would offend certain religious groups. Many magical things are still part of religious belief systems, though the more fantastic elements may be practiced or thought of differently depending on your location. Some examples:
Luck/dodge buffs- an ex girlfriend of mine from Haiti applied dodge buffs to me when I would go on a trip. It was making a little doll to put in my bag. These were supposed to make my driving safer.
Minion Masters - Some religious centers, mostly in stripmalls afaik, have special spells to make venomous snakes unwilling to bit you.
Magical Weaponry against evil - My grandmother believes that water that is blessed by a priest, can repel evil doers or spirts or something.
Healers AKA Clerics - I've seen them on TV only. In big neon churches. These guys can cure all types of ailments by laying on hands on people's heads and saying a certain spell - I think it goes "thank you jebus" or something.
Necromancy – Many many cultures get special powers or buff their dice rolls by communing with the dead. Usually, coupled with prayers for good fortune, good health etc. I just went to a Day of the Dead party with some Mexican friends recently. One religion's main figure was a zombie iirc, rose from the dead after 3 days.
"Never met a pack of humans that were any different. Look at the idiots that get elected every couple of years. You really consider those guys more mature than us? The only difference between us and them is, when they gank some noobs and take their stuff, the noobs actually die." - Madimorga
I think the setting of Mage: The Ascension is the best one out there involving magic. The idea of a "consensus reality" where those that understand how the universe really works can contort it to their will, but if witnessed by those out of the know, it reacts in strange ways that are unintended - since those who are clueless would try to rationalize the event in any way they can, therein changing the effects of what is going on. Really, really good stuff.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
the idea of eating "chocolate eggs" left by a rabbit is more disgusting than scary but even so...
Currently bored with MMO's.
Yes 1 barbarian vs 1 mage might get messy, but a group of melee fighters vs 1 mage? Or a mage that can counter the single mage's magic whilst his(the first mage) buddies hit the single mage with arrows, axes, etc? The problem with bringing a gun to a gunfight is someone might bring the marines.
Currently bored with MMO's.
You mean like you just did?
Top MMOs: Asheron's Call, Shadowbane, EVE Online, Planetside
Played: Pretty much everything at one point or another
Yes, it would be cool.
The fact tho, is that just like kung fu gave way to western boxing, wrestling and jiu-jitsu, the people who figured out how to make a min-maxed powerful version of a certain kind of spell would ultimately reduce it to that. The entire attempt to get to interesting gameplay would reduce to the simple fact of what is effective. You would ultimately end up back with shadow bolts, fireballs, immolation, corruption - basically, the other games in the genre have just applied their world/rules and come oup with variations on the basic things that would be effective against your targets: against a wooden structure - fire; against life - death, disease, fire; etc.
But, I think it's cool to have a different take.
I liked the idea of in Conan being able to stand still and channel the HELL out of a spell to make it more powerful - and end up hurting yourself in the process. It made sense to me.
UO used to have reagents to keep in line with older magical concepts.
Hey, it would be cool, but we already have a decent amount of variation. Vanguard had you able to makes blistering and rotten skin infect an opponent instead of being more generic and doing the WoW thing and calling it Corruption - though they were basically the same thing.
I would love to play your game though. Slaugthering infants and using their fat for candles in terrible ceremonies may be a bit extreme for teh masses, but getting back to the old ridiculous bs humans used to believe would be hilarious. Then I would ask you to play my game which uses the absolutely ridiculous Christ religions, Islam.... all that ridiculous stuff. And you would be a priest (not Catholic - that would be too nasty) of that particular still extant religion and to be a sorcerer you would do voodoo or satanism, etc as the equally embarrassing and ridiculous foil to the ridiculous religions.
Let me know when you get your game running.
Someone please make a good MMO.
http://www.humpin.org/mst3kdd/
LoL Someone MST3k'd Dark Dungeons, and it seems poorly fitting.
I'd like to see it, but there'd have to be dice rolls somewhere.
I think it would be really cool to have a game like this. Basing is more closely off of real world settings and legends. Nobody in folklore threw fireballs, but shape-changing, altering the weather, foretelling the future, and controlling animal life were all prevalent in legends. The mentality where magic (or magick) is complex and rare would make an interesting perspective for a game.
Important facts:
1. Free to Play games are poorly made.
2. Casuals are not all idiots, but idiots call themselves casuals.
3. Great solo and group content are not mutually exclusive, but they suffer when one is shoved into the mold of the other. The same is true of PvP and PvE.
4. Community is more important than you think.
The issue is that MMORPGs have a hard enough time struggling to create fun combat as it is: with a largely gameplay-first perspective on ability design.
The types of magic you've described seem very lore-first in their design -- in fact most of them are incredibly dull sounding if you imagine them as gameplay activities. These "curses" and "meditations" and alchemy are largely rituals done outside of combat, which doesn't lend itself to interesting mid-combat decisions.
(Interestingly, all of these ritual spellcasters are exactly the sort of magic users that barbarians would defeat!)
Basically if you feel fireball-fireball-iceblast isn't compelling, then how is your system more interesting? Personally I feel WOW's system provides the strongest MMORPG combat of any MMORPG I've played, because each ability tends to have a very strong and distinct purpose. The only reason it falls flat is that most of the time difficulty is not tightly balanced (meaning even an inefficient combo like casting fire-fire-ice will still achieve victory.)
Tightly balanced challenges go hand-in-hand with meaningful mid-fight decisionmaking, and that's why I feel that one of the biggest failings of MMORPGs is a failure to offer a spread of difficulties so that each player can choose their own sweet spot of challenge.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I'm kinda hopeful that the Vampire game will at some point (it could happen!) include Mage (possible expansion?).
You had some decent ideas, but you lost me at your Eth-Or-Dith macro. So to boil down your system, it's just a game based on macros. Within a week everyone would have the best macro combinations posted on the web, and then there is no need to expirement or speak the words. Just copy the macro, create a button, and voila you now have a game with fireball, fireball, fireball, iceblast.
I'm just waiting for World of Darkness and hoping they add in some Mages and Werewolves down the line. Another route would be Secret World, but not sure how well that is going to play out. I'm all for a more occult, darker side of the coin, type game.
Oh, I read it. (I guess I knew to use Eth-Or-Dith in place of Fireball because I'd already Beta-tested your game?)
I'm a fan of Fantasy. Fantasy books, games, etc. Fantasy gives the option for so much more than the "actual Magick". I think trying to base an MMO game on the subject matter as you've presented it would be hard to translate to a game that enough people would find enjoyable to play.
Getting over the hurdle of making it different than what we already know from the Fantasy side without just calling them different names would be a challenge in itself. Calling a Fireball an Eth-Or-Dith doesn't really do much to differentiate the game from it's Fantasy MMO equivilant.
Just like those of us who played Wizardry didn't think that because the spells were called Halito, Katino, or Dial that we weren't actually casting Fireball, Sleep, or Heal. All they did was throw us a bit of an extra learning curve to memorize what the new words translated into.
Just calling things different names doesn't really change anything except to confuse players and make it harder for them to connect to your game.
Your idea of the words forming together to make the spells is nice in theory, but once someone posts up all the best combinations to some spoiler site... they will really just be the same as Fireball, Sleep, or Heal.
So, from you original list of Magick Schools... you've got these "schools"
Alchemy -
Witchcraft -
Theurgy -
Goetia -
Astrology -
From just a brief search through these links... they seem to mirror the vast majority of what you've already described. Remember, Fantasy writers pull from much of our own history and then add in liberal doses of imagination. Fantasy has all the elements you're already trying to include... but without the "actual Magick" title.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FantasyCharacterClasses
The Inherent Gift Magician: Often referred to as a ''Sorcerer''. This magic-user was born with abilities they don't need to study, and can use more readily than other magicians. This is sometimes explained as being descended from some magical creature, other times as being part of a Witch Species. However, they are often much less versatile than other magic-users, being limited to a smaller or much more tightly-themed pool of spells.
The Theurgist Magician: Commonly known as Warlocks or Sorcerers. The Magician makes a pact with a higher spirit (although not usually a god since those tend to be distinct in fantasy settings) which supplies them with magical power they usually don't have. This is usually flavored with a Deal With The Devil. While healing class pacts are seen as good, a magician that makes a pact with an entity that gives them the power to harm or destroy is usually flavored in a darker light - and it may turn out to be with demons or Eldritch Abominations. Thus, this type of magic is usually heavily offensive and nasty.
The Summoner Magician: A higher level in which the caster summons the entity to them to do its bidding. Usually even more dangerous than regular Theurgist Magicians.
The Vancian Magician: Also known as "Wizards", "Mages" etc. These casters rely on Rule Magic and study to learn and wield magic, usually taking years, leaving their bodies squishy and out of shape. They may have a restriction on using their magic - either they must be loaded like a gun, need to rest, can only cast something a certain amount of times per day. However, they generally have the largest pool of spells to choose from, and are the magical equivalent of a Swiss army knife.
The Alchemist Magician: Chemistry + Magic. An Alchemist generally requires components to do magic, but they are often able to fashion useful items and potions, or combine items for radical effects in battles via transmutation. Among the more likely of the Magician archetypes to be good at healing.
The Bard Magician: A hybrid class that employs Magic Music. Bards are the butt of a lot of jokes in fantasy settings, however, they can be very useful if employed carefully. They use songs to employ beneficial effects, healing, and sometimes damage. They usually have high stats for dealing with NP Cs, making them ideal for role-playing, barter, diplomacy and negotiations - aspects of the game often overlooked in favor of swords and spells.
The Red Mage: A magician who does not specialize in one school or tradition and studies the magic of various types. They tend to be rare, and depending on which limitations they have, may be very powerful thanks to their versatility. Of all the kinds of magician, they tend to be the most open minded and least prone to think there are Un Equal Rites.
Necromantic Magician: A magic-user that wields power over the dead, blood, and "death energy". Are usually antagonists, but if Dark Is Not Evil, may be a playable class. Often they employ a Zerg Rush - creating hordes of weak undead and sending them after a problem till it dies. Any other abilities will likely be curses that weaken or sap away strength.
The Illusionist Magician: A magic-user who casts illusions. Generally considered weak, with no real damage output, and has been phased out of most settings - their abilities are generally given to characters with Psychic powers and Bardic Magicians.
The Nature Magician: Wields power over the natural world, often including elements, animals, and plants.
The Elemental Magician: A specialized Magician who can only use Elemental Powers in some way. They may be able to use all the elements, or may specialize in one or two. Often, they are the key to winning Elemental Rock Paper Scissors in their setting.
The Druid Magician: A jack of all trades nature magician. They often have a mix of elemental offense, healing, and the ability to morph into animals or elemental spirits to become melee fighters. To further the overlap with the Cleric classes, is often a worshipper of nature.
The Shamanic Magician: A nature magician with a Summoner twist. This class generally has a mix of offensive and defensive powers that revolve around the careful employ of things (mostly devices) like spirits, totems, etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wizard_%28character_class%29
Black Mages, mages who practice offensive magic.
Blue Mages, mages who copy enemy abilities.
Red Mages, mages who are jack-of-all-trades.
Summoners, mages who conjure up sacred beasts and deities.
Time Mages, mages who manipulate time and space.
White Mages, mages who practice healing magic.
Green Mages, mages who practice Green Magic, which enhances allies' abilities and weakens enemies.
I think you are being a bit too quick to dismiss D&D's magic schools and their many components as well. You've obviously never played the pen and paper version. Here is a very brief summary:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_of_Dungeons_&_Dragons
Yikes... major whoops on editing... just read the link above.
As someone already said "magick" isn't really a correct term, it really is just magic.
But I agree with you however, I would really like to see a return to the classical folklore about magic, not the fireballing type (even though there might still be room for such here and there).
As I study cultural antropology, I find it quite sad that games are not tapping into the untold reserves of interesting things found in fairytales and local legends...
'The Witcher' kind of tried this, with success, but it didn't nearly go far enough imo.
This type of experimenting is best left to single players first though imo.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
To the op....
You basically went into a long discussion over a simple answer>>>>PVE.You are looking at the biggest fail in MMORPG's and that is trying to create a FPS or pvp atmosphere,it just does not work.FFXI started us on the right track ,but all those people that don't belong in a MMORPG.started to complain,they want solo play,they want easy mode and they don't want to form a group to use various skills in taking down a enemy.
When you bring the GROUP factor into PVE,it all makes sense,the Barbarian doesn't need to beat a Mage 1 on 1,he has his team behind him to give the support he needs to take down that enemy.The same goes for Dragons and other beasts in the Fantasy world.A single player can't possibly cast 5 debuffs or 10 buffs all at once,this is why team work is always the best option,it allows for various skills and buffs that aid each otehr in fighting a creature you cannot defeat alone.
Too many people look at the MMORPG games from a soloist standpoint,they forget they are in a MMO,and suppose to be interacting with other players,that does not mean against other players.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
"The Secret World" from Funcom is supposed to look at some of this type of thing. It remains to be seen just how much they'll actually dig into stories and how much they'll just use it as dressing for their brand of MMO combat. Their stated goals seem to be that they want to bring the story out, give people some interaction with those myths and some of the magic that exists in the stories of our world, not some fantasy world. Probably years away though.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.