Well, I'm reminded of an old saying; " No matter how powerful a wizard may be, a poisoned dagger between the shoulder blades will seriously crap his style...". Keep in mind that the ninja are a melee class, and tend to show up at the most unpleasant times. ^^
But basing an entire game system on historical magic, while possible, why would one wish to?
Some of the fantasy lore type magics lend themselves to games in a much more entertaining fashion. Not to mention the hysterics the fundi's would have over such a system.
This thread is full of common misconceptions. Maybe I didn't explain it well enough, because I assumed the majority of people that read this would be observant enough to understand what I'm saying and fill in the gaps.
I'm going to clear up these misconceptions.
1. I am not making this game. I just threw a general idea out there with a couple examples of how it would look, and kind of assumed people would understand and kind of fill in the gaps and get the jist.
2. I did not say that Fireball would be renamed to "Eth-Or-Dith", that was a quick example I thought up while I was typing for the runic words that would need to be spoken to cast the spell. (Xzyax, I think thats what keeps making me think you skim over things and don't really think about it before you respond >.>)
3. People think my "runic spellcasting" system would end up just being like clicking fireballs because of macros and everyone would know all the patterns in the first week. My response to that is THINK HARDER about these things.
One way to fix that is make the patterns different for every character, so everyone has to discover their own runic patterns themselves through trial and error.
OR you could implement the alignment of the stars, everytime the alignment shifts, the magic words for each spell would change, causing a constant shift, forcing people to attune themselves constantly.
I thought of those 2 solutions in like 5 minutes after seeing the posts trying to say this would end up being the same as any other system. All it takes is a little creativity.
4. Another misconception is that I would be trying to disguise this game as "Not fantasy" so it offends people who are fantasy fans and they think I am against it. NO, I'm just saying lets make a game based on a more historical viewpoint of magic, a little more complicated and artsy compared to the traditional "If you have mana, you can cast fireballs."
5. There also seems to be a couple people who (secretly and indirectly) think I want this because I believe in it or something.
For gods sake, it's just a bunch of history, the fact that it offends and scares so many people makes me think YOU believe it more than me. It's just a bunch of imaginative and creative ideas to me, nothing more. And even if I did believe in it, how does that effect a game being made about it?
One person did point out religion being offended by a game based on actual magic traditions. Which helps me to understand why a game like this has never been made. Because of intolerant and ignorant religious people who think it's the work of the devil, and super militant science people who think that anyone interested in Esoteric tradition is a believer in it and hates science. To me, both are equally immature and you condense all argument to those types of people into 2 words, and that is "Grow up".
OK...Let me ask. The general question here is basically why everyone uses the same 'tried and true' fireballs and standard magic effects for their magic in their games...other than the fact that basically its no different from other classes other than the fact that some classes uses "magic" and some don't and that magic is basically flashy animations...right?
If so...
I suppose that the chances of the evolution of the idea of magic use in games will actually occur are based on the programming and game development of people who actually care about this topic in gaming. Anyone here have any skills?
a few suggestions if there are:
1) all these subclasses of magic have been boiled down and put into games in some form or another. attacking, supporting, utility, defending, and so on. If somebody actually gives a crap about this kind of thing, odds are that they won't like to be pigeon-holed into one of these categories (or at least I wouldn't). The more options you give players in defining what their class is (even to the point that classes are created by the player via sliders or something) the more people there are that will probably be happy playing a sandboxy magic game.
2) if (1) is taken into account, then the following must (or should) be applied to mundane classes as well. A sandbox MMORPG where the classes are the sandbox. Has this been done before? (seriously, tell me if there has)
3) lore matters. Lore creates the environment, and things that go against the lore decrease immersion.
4) don't listen to me. I ramble and make sense to too few people to make too much of an actual argument. too much attention to the previous sentence if you have taken the time to read to this point.
I used to TL;DR, but then I took a bullet point to the footnote.
I don't think this type of thing hasn't happened because of religious reasons. I believe it's the game Dante's Inferno where you finish the game by trying to avoid getting hit by the devil's giant pen1s while also trying to kill him or somehow crawl up his body without touching it. If that didn't offend any religious people out there, I don't see how trying to act out ceremonial magic would.
There are lots of reasons why this wouldn't happen, mostly resulting in lack of money.
1) You're not macroing. If everyone has to continually learn how to cast a fireball spell, they are not going to want to play. Most people (not all, but most) simply want entertainment, not a job. I think the idea of making your own spell chains is cool...instead of hitting 1 button, you hit 1 button, hold it while you build up some energy, then in a quick sequence hit buttons 2 and 3 or buttons 3 and 4 depending on what you want to do. You have to watch repetition though...if it's repetitive, it has to be easy.
2) It's not a popular theme. It doesn't do well in movies and while it might do well in books, it would be romance books, so the magic and ceremony would not be the primary focus. They would be part of the scenery.
3) You're going to end up with pretty standard PvE and PvP regardless, even if the setting is ceremonial magic. If you've actually read about what they did, there were no fireballs or energy moving or any of that. They drew 9 foot circles in the floor, killed someone and hoped that the devil or an angel would do their bidding. Or (as did Mr. Crowley) they would hope the being would possess them and answer questions and in the end do their bidding. What I've described isn't anything people are going to play an MMO game to do (I don't think).
While I'm not saying it can't be done, because anything can be done, you'd have to filter a lot of the historical stuff and make it interesting to a modern audience. More ceremony or interaction is good. Drawing a virtual 9 foot circle and killing a virtual virgin to ask a question probably wouldn't go over to well. Wouldn't sell to well at any rate.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
The reason that MMOs and Computer games in general go with the "Fantasy" version of Magic... instead of the "actual Magick". Is that... well, most of us believe there isn't any "actual Magick".
A good portion of what the ancients believed to be "Magick", we recognize as science, chemistry, etc. today. Hence, if you want players flinging Fireballs (or Eth-Or-Diths) in your MMO... you've got to turn to the realm of Fantasy.
And, just so I can complete the trifecta; there is no Santa Claus or Tooth Fairy either. The Easter Bunny however; is entirely real, and very scary.
What did you just read the title and not read the post?
You don't have to believe it's real for it to be a theme in a game. There are plenty of games about Greek Mythology, do you have to believe in those to play them?
Hehe, good point.
I think a magick system more based on the concepts of our world would be interesting. I'd say it would by and large be ritual magick. Tho I am not sure if that would be cool to play in a MMO. The magick traditions of our world, let's say Kabbalah or Wiccan rituals, are probably relatively boring to exercise in a game. Imagine a 2 hour invocation of the spirit of Geburah to cast a damage spell on someone...
But I CAN imagine a more elaborate and mystic magic system than the simple ones we have, insofar I find the idea cool, to rework magick systems in a way that you feel more like a Magician or Wizard than you do right now. Magic in MMOs today is more a mere alteration of ranged weapons. So instead of a rifle you use a magic missle. Which isn't really so cool over time. I would need some RP and story to make this more vivid, that for instance a mage has to undergo some initiation ritual every 10 levels or so. Or make some ritual to unlock new spells.
I think the magic system of games can use some more love to detail. Good thinking, OP.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
As someone already said "magick" isn't really a correct term, it really is just magic.
But I agree with you however, I would really like to see a return to the classical folklore about magic, not the fireballing type (even though there might still be room for such here and there).
As I study cultural antropology, I find it quite sad that games are not tapping into the untold reserves of interesting things found in fairytales and local legends...
'The Witcher' kind of tried this, with success, but it didn't nearly go far enough imo.
This type of experimenting is best left to single players first though imo.
*cough* Actually it IS the right term, speaking of magic in our world which is not stage illusionism. Buuuut... I don't want to blow up some people's heads by discussing this.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Most of the discussion still seems to miss the point players really care about: gameplay.
Frostbolt-fireball-fireball (and similar combos) has some depth; some "combo"; some thought. Eeven if the vast majority of encounters are so easy that the extra efficiency isn't needed, the sequence matters.
Does anything change about this sequence when we repackage magic as magick? And if so, what're the specifics?
Because like I said earlier, it sounds like the fiction behind this stuff is all ritual pre-combat spellcasting, which doesn't leave very many interesting decisions to be made during gameplay.
Basically what I'm saying is the fiction is irrelevant. It could be anything. It already is anything (WOW's spell elements are hardly the most indepth, nor do they need to be.) It's the gameplay players care about.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
The reason that MMOs and Computer games in general go with the "Fantasy" version of Magic... instead of the "actual Magick". Is that... well, most of us believe there isn't any "actual Magick".
A good portion of what the ancients believed to be "Magick", we recognize as science, chemistry, etc. today. Hence, if you want players flinging Fireballs (or Eth-Or-Diths) in your MMO... you've got to turn to the realm of Fantasy.
And, just so I can complete the trifecta; there is no Santa Claus or Tooth Fairy either. The Easter Bunny however; is entirely real, and very scary.
What did you just read the title and not read the post?
You don't have to believe it's real for it to be a theme in a game. There are plenty of games about Greek Mythology, do you have to believe in those to play them?
Hehe, good point.
I think a magick system more based on the concepts of our world would be interesting. I'd say it would by and large be ritual magick. Tho I am not sure if that would be cool to play in a MMO. The magick traditions of our world, let's say Kabbalah or Wiccan rituals, are probably relatively boring to exercise in a game. Imagine a 2 hour invocation of the spirit of Geburah to cast a damage spell on someone...
But I CAN imagine a more elaborate and mystic magic system than the simple ones we have, insofar I find the idea cool, to rework magick systems in a way that you feel more like a Magician or Wizard than you do right now. Magic in MMOs today is more a mere alteration of ranged weapons. So instead of a rifle you use a magic missle. Which isn't really so cool over time. I would need some RP and story to make this more vivid, that for instance a mage has to undergo some initiation ritual every 10 levels or so. Or make some ritual to unlock new spells.
I think the magic system of games can use some more love to detail. Good thinking, OP.
Good to see that some people get where I'm coming from.
Yeah, well I wasn't saying follow the rituals completely to the T. I'm just saying set the theme to that level. You wouldn't have to do a ritual dance for 4 hours or sacrifice a sheep or anything crazy like that, but still you could have many phases in spells that are symbolic of historical magic (I'm leaving the K off of that from now on, too many people flip out, its freaking bizarre.)
Just making magic a little more mystical, artsy and important feeling. Like you said, if Fireball = an arrow but with a different effect, it starts making magic just seem like another thing to make numbers go across your screen.
I have no idea how much spell-preparation would be required in a game like this. But I would definitely like there to be MORE preparation, complexities and things to take into account than there is now (reagents, chants, phases, alignments). Magic should be the dominant art in a magic world, but that still doesn't mean it is easy to do.
I also don't think that someone should be able to get hit with a flaming meteor and just get up and drink a potion. Meteors should KILL someone instantly, however, a spell of Meteor should definitely be hard to cast. But that's an aspect of realism, that doesn't necessarily have to be incorporated in this type of game.
Would be interesting. But i have to disagree about melee characters. I think meele characters could pawn magic users just fine. I think magic mostly lays outside of direct combat. Basically its more like a person bringing a battle ax to a chemist convention.
Basically what I'm saying is the fiction is irrelevant. It could be anything. It already is anything (WOW's spell elements are hardly the most indepth, nor do they need to be.) It's the gameplay players care about.
LOL not everyone thinks like you bro, sure game play is very important, but a lot of people DO care about the theme and the fiction behind it. Just because you don't care about the lore/theme/concept/creativity of a game doesn't mean everyone is the same.
I'm also saying that casting 1 fireball would be more complex, you'd have to learn how to do it, be attuned to fire (or something similar to that), and have the reagents. Something to that effect, I'm not trying to make the whole game I'm just giving the general idea. Just a game where magic actually feels like a complex process, like it originally was thought to be.
However, in a game like this, a fireball would probably be a little more devastating than other games where you can throw 5 flaming balls at a Zebra and it is still at half life.
Basically what I'm saying is the fiction is irrelevant. It could be anything. It already is anything (WOW's spell elements are hardly the most indepth, nor do they need to be.) It's the gameplay players care about.
I agree. Gameplay first. Fiction is secondary. Fiction can be drawn on top of any good gameplay, but good fiction doesn't necessarily make good gameplay.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Basically what I'm saying is the fiction is irrelevant. It could be anything. It already is anything (WOW's spell elements are hardly the most indepth, nor do they need to be.) It's the gameplay players care about.
LOL not everyone thinks like you bro, sure game play is very important, but a lot of people DO care about the theme and the fiction behind it. Just because you don't care about the lore/theme/concept/creativity of a game doesn't mean everyone is the same.
It is not about caring so don't create any sides (gameplay vs. lore). It is about good design. Lore is the one easier to change here. Like I wrote in my previous post: It is harder to fit good gameplay to lore than fit your lore to good gameplay.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Basically what I'm saying is the fiction is irrelevant. It could be anything. It already is anything (WOW's spell elements are hardly the most indepth, nor do they need to be.) It's the gameplay players care about.
LOL not everyone thinks like you bro, sure game play is very important, but a lot of people DO care about the theme and the fiction behind it. Just because you don't care about the lore/theme/concept/creativity of a game doesn't mean everyone is the same.
I'm also saying that casting 1 fireball would be more complex, you'd have to learn how to do it, be attuned to fire (or something similar to that), and have the reagents. Something to that effect, I'm not trying to make the whole game I'm just giving the general idea. Just a game where magic actually feels like a complex process, like it originally was thought to be.
However, in a game like this, a fireball would probably be a little more devastating than other games where you can throw 5 flaming balls at a Zebra and it is still at half life.
Well okay. You're right.
It's not irrelevant (as in irrelevant to everyone.)
It's irrelevant to the vast majority.
These comments are made, of course, comparing WOW-like lore vs. this proposal's lore. Few would be interested in completely lore-less games with white square "characters" using abilities which are literally called "Snare A" and "Nuke B". People care about lore, but for the vast majority it takes a backseat to gameplay (if a game isn't fun, very few will keep playing it for lore alone.)
Really it's the focus on gameplay with a backseat nod towards lore that is one of the many reasons behind Blizzard's success.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
As someone already said "magick" isn't really a correct term, it really is just magic.
But I agree with you however, I would really like to see a return to the classical folklore about magic, not the fireballing type (even though there might still be room for such here and there).
As I study cultural antropology, I find it quite sad that games are not tapping into the untold reserves of interesting things found in fairytales and local legends...
'The Witcher' kind of tried this, with success, but it didn't nearly go far enough imo.
This type of experimenting is best left to single players first though imo.
*cough* Actually it IS the right term, speaking of magic in our world which is not stage illusionism. Buuuut... I don't want to blow up some people's heads by discussing this.
'Magick' is a term popularized by Aleister Crowley and other such nitwits and societies who wanted to set themselves apart from the common 'stage magic' by throwing in some old English.
We're talking regular English now, so it's just magic.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
I couldn't remember the name of the game, but as you OP point number 3. Making magic more complex that button mashing - check out a single player game called Arx Fatalis. Looks like it is available on Steam. While you wont be blown away by the graphics now, it has a really fun magic system. You actually move your hand (in 1st person) in shapes of runes to cast spells. It seems wonky at first but when you et used to it it is quite immersive.
"Never met a pack of humans that were any different. Look at the idiots that get elected every couple of years. You really consider those guys more mature than us? The only difference between us and them is, when they gank some noobs and take their stuff, the noobs actually die." - Madimorga
One person did point out religion being offended by a game based on actual magic traditions. Which helps me to understand why a game like this has never been made. Because of intolerant and ignorant religious people who think it's the work of the devil, and super militant science people who think that anyone interested in Esoteric tradition is a believer in it and hates science. To me, both are equally immature and you condense all argument to those types of people into 2 words, and that is "Grow up".
I should have said originally that I think a game based on actual magic would be great. I agree that those people that might be offended should grow up - specifically accept the art and humanity of their traditions - i was just pointing out one reason why practically, I don't think its been done.
I do hope the Secret World does this. It seems to, be we are of course short on details.
"Never met a pack of humans that were any different. Look at the idiots that get elected every couple of years. You really consider those guys more mature than us? The only difference between us and them is, when they gank some noobs and take their stuff, the noobs actually die." - Madimorga
Do you really think a Barbarian could stand against a skilled wizard at any time? That's like bringing a knife to a gunfight, except a wizard has powers even greater than a gun. In a hypothetical world of magic, magic would dominate the world (Just like technology dominates our world) and the Barbarians and retards would just be the laborers, not the heros.
2. Make magic more complex, base it off the real traditions.
While I like your idea it seems that fantasy magic has clouded your judgement. I'll hit on these 2 points to explain what I mean.
Historical magic involves rituals, gathering of power etc..... these take time. No carrying around spells in their heads just planning, mumbling etc..... Unless your magic user knew in advance and had set up an ambush, Mr. Barb would have made sushi out of the guy, before he could even start to dig out his powered bat wings.
Yes in the overall scheme of things magic could dominate the world if one was a powerful enough user, but it would be more of the fixing the entire baseball season so your team would win (overall part), but not having the fine control over the individual game scores or results.
You can control the weather all you want, but it only takes 1 angry farmer to stick a pitchfork in your back to ruin your day.
I don't know if you've ever read it but there's a series about the Deryni by K. Kurtz. Basically it's along the lines of what you're talking about. If there's time magic is all good and fine, but when you don't have it, the sword works just as well.
I was running from a mage in nwn 1 pvp module with my barbarian inside a dungeon, then he apears from a corner next to me i was wielding a 2 handed axe clicked to attack the mage : attack roll: 20+7 =27= delivered 51 dmg on poor 7 lvl mage he died before he could say quititz (lol) (2 handed axe crit dmg is 20 x3)
Now i disagree mages even in d&d where they are overpowered they are that strong as u suggest but,i agree to some things u mention.
Yeah magic should be more nicely made in mmorpg's in terms of learning and even casting. If anyone played arx fatalis its the best and more realistic way to cast magic spells(you make drawings of symbols in the air with waving your hands to perform each spell) check videos on youtube to see what i mean.
I think also that in general magic is missed from latest mmorpg's.
These comments are made, of course, comparing WOW-like lore vs. this proposal's lore. Few would be interested in completely lore-less games with white square "characters" using abilities which are literally called "Snare A" and "Nuke B". People care about lore, but for the vast majority it takes a backseat to gameplay (if a game isn't fun, very few will keep playing it for lore alone.)
Really it's the focus on gameplay with a backseat nod towards lore that is one of the many reasons behind Blizzard's success.
As you can see, this type of game would NOT be for the vast majority.
Blizzards success with WoW is also it's failure, so many people play WoW, yet so many people don't like it, and even alot of WoW players talk shit about it. It is successful because it appeals to the masses. Just like mainstream radio, it's the typical, same old stuff, yet easy to learn the words and sing along with the rest of the world.
What you don't understand is that the lore would tie in with the gameplay. Like I said, I'm not a game designer, I don't have all the technical aspects or how everything will work, but I can name a few games that designed there magic so it wasn't as boring as the magic seen in MMOs (and most games) today.
Ultima online, Sacrifice, NoX, Arx Fatalis, these games had similar aspects in lore/gameplay with magic to what I'm describing, except what I'm talking about would be more complex, and have a loose theme based off of historical magic.
Required reagents, astrological alignments, runic words and all sorts would have an awesome lore and feeling behind it. And the gameplay would be awesome for more patient people who enjoy learning and feeling immersed rather than instant gratification via hitting fireball.
So it isn't just lore that I'm talking about it is better gameplay, but only better for people who like that kind of stuff.
As you can see, this type of game would NOT be for the vast majority.
...<snip>...
So it isn't just lore that I'm talking about it is better gameplay, but only better for people who like that kind of stuff.
But could you sell it? Or, more to the point, could you sell it to enough people to finance the creation of the game in the first place? The gameplay aspects aside (which I could see having a beneficial impact on the game), what would the rest of the game be like? Would every player who wanted to be at all powerful in the game be a mage? Would it work in an urban fantasy setting, or would it require a real world setting, just add ceremonial magic? Would it work in the 1800's or could you do the setting in 1990? And so on. I could see this working, but I could also see a lot of people getting angry because they got one shotted while trying to do their fireball sigil in the air and they just weren't any good at it.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Required reagents, astrological alignments, runic words and all sorts would have an awesome lore and feeling behind it. And the gameplay would be awesome for more patient people who enjoy learning and feeling immersed rather than instant gratification via hitting fireball.
So it isn't just lore that I'm talking about it is better gameplay, but only better for people who like that kind of stuff.
Well that makes it hard to discuss anything if you insist "it's the lore I'm describing, except with awesome gameplay" and then when someone points out that a lot of this magic (fictionally) is ritual spellcasting which wouldn't be done in combat and your response is "but I said it'd be awesome gameplay!"
We could ask WOW Hunters if they felt having reagents (arrows) for their basic spells (abilities) was more or less fun than classes who didn't have to jump through an additional hoop.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Tell me what you think, and by the way, if there is already a game out there similar this (MMO or not) let me know I'd like to play it.
I think you would like the pnp rpg, Ars Magica, a very detailed game about Hermetic magi in 13th century Europe.
I was going to say the same thing.
Ars Magica was a very detailed set of rules that revolved almost completely around magic. You had powerful and detailed mages, and then you had everybody else.
It was an interesting setting and game, but given the focus, it had somewhat limited appeal.
An MMO like that would probably also have limited appeal. That's not to say it'd be bad, just probably something that would appeal to fewer people than a more diverse fantasy setting.
I think in a fantasy world where there was magic, over time people through a process of natural selection would develop resistences or immunities to certain kinds of magics as a means of survival. We see examples of this in our own world, where different races have changed do to environmental factors. Hence, it is not necessarily a given that magic users would rule the world.
But if we are talking magic in the real world, it doesn't exist. You can call yourself a witch or a wiccan or whatever you want, but you have no special powers. Reality though is partly perception and if people are a little off yes they will start to believe in such things.
The only supernatural thing I have personally ever witnessed is two times I had a dream come true. Not interpretation mind you, but I actually had a dream, woke up, thought about it and remembered it, and then was surprised a couple days later when reality unfolded EXACTLY as it had in my dream. I've never experienced that since, and what is particularly strange is both events were mundane, but the presentation in the dreams was very strange, like an echo chamber and the dream was looped, repeating over and over until I woke up....which is why I remembered them.
Anyway, now I'm probably starting to sound a little off. LOL. There are things in the universe we don't yet understand, but I think 99% of magic is fake. The other 1% may not be magic per se but some force or affect of the universe we don't understand yet.
As someone already said "magick" isn't really a correct term, it really is just magic.
But I agree with you however, I would really like to see a return to the classical folklore about magic, not the fireballing type (even though there might still be room for such here and there).
As I study cultural antropology, I find it quite sad that games are not tapping into the untold reserves of interesting things found in fairytales and local legends...
'The Witcher' kind of tried this, with success, but it didn't nearly go far enough imo.
This type of experimenting is best left to single players first though imo.
*cough* Actually it IS the right term, speaking of magic in our world which is not stage illusionism. Buuuut... I don't want to blow up some people's heads by discussing this.
'Magick' is a term popularized by Aleister Crowley and other such nitwits and societies who wanted to set themselves apart from the common 'stage magic' by throwing in some old English.
We're talking regular English now, so it's just magic.
Language evolves, as does the meaning of words.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Comments
Well, I'm reminded of an old saying; " No matter how powerful a wizard may be, a poisoned dagger between the shoulder blades will seriously crap his style...". Keep in mind that the ninja are a melee class, and tend to show up at the most unpleasant times. ^^
But basing an entire game system on historical magic, while possible, why would one wish to?
Some of the fantasy lore type magics lend themselves to games in a much more entertaining fashion. Not to mention the hysterics the fundi's would have over such a system.
This thread is full of common misconceptions. Maybe I didn't explain it well enough, because I assumed the majority of people that read this would be observant enough to understand what I'm saying and fill in the gaps.
I'm going to clear up these misconceptions.
1. I am not making this game. I just threw a general idea out there with a couple examples of how it would look, and kind of assumed people would understand and kind of fill in the gaps and get the jist.
2. I did not say that Fireball would be renamed to "Eth-Or-Dith", that was a quick example I thought up while I was typing for the runic words that would need to be spoken to cast the spell. (Xzyax, I think thats what keeps making me think you skim over things and don't really think about it before you respond >.>)
3. People think my "runic spellcasting" system would end up just being like clicking fireballs because of macros and everyone would know all the patterns in the first week. My response to that is THINK HARDER about these things.
One way to fix that is make the patterns different for every character, so everyone has to discover their own runic patterns themselves through trial and error.
OR you could implement the alignment of the stars, everytime the alignment shifts, the magic words for each spell would change, causing a constant shift, forcing people to attune themselves constantly.
I thought of those 2 solutions in like 5 minutes after seeing the posts trying to say this would end up being the same as any other system. All it takes is a little creativity.
4. Another misconception is that I would be trying to disguise this game as "Not fantasy" so it offends people who are fantasy fans and they think I am against it. NO, I'm just saying lets make a game based on a more historical viewpoint of magic, a little more complicated and artsy compared to the traditional "If you have mana, you can cast fireballs."
5. There also seems to be a couple people who (secretly and indirectly) think I want this because I believe in it or something.
For gods sake, it's just a bunch of history, the fact that it offends and scares so many people makes me think YOU believe it more than me. It's just a bunch of imaginative and creative ideas to me, nothing more. And even if I did believe in it, how does that effect a game being made about it?
One person did point out religion being offended by a game based on actual magic traditions. Which helps me to understand why a game like this has never been made. Because of intolerant and ignorant religious people who think it's the work of the devil, and super militant science people who think that anyone interested in Esoteric tradition is a believer in it and hates science. To me, both are equally immature and you condense all argument to those types of people into 2 words, and that is "Grow up".
OK...Let me ask. The general question here is basically why everyone uses the same 'tried and true' fireballs and standard magic effects for their magic in their games...other than the fact that basically its no different from other classes other than the fact that some classes uses "magic" and some don't and that magic is basically flashy animations...right?
If so...
I suppose that the chances of the evolution of the idea of magic use in games will actually occur are based on the programming and game development of people who actually care about this topic in gaming. Anyone here have any skills?
a few suggestions if there are:
1) all these subclasses of magic have been boiled down and put into games in some form or another. attacking, supporting, utility, defending, and so on. If somebody actually gives a crap about this kind of thing, odds are that they won't like to be pigeon-holed into one of these categories (or at least I wouldn't). The more options you give players in defining what their class is (even to the point that classes are created by the player via sliders or something) the more people there are that will probably be happy playing a sandboxy magic game.
2) if (1) is taken into account, then the following must (or should) be applied to mundane classes as well. A sandbox MMORPG where the classes are the sandbox. Has this been done before? (seriously, tell me if there has)
3) lore matters. Lore creates the environment, and things that go against the lore decrease immersion.
4) don't listen to me. I ramble and make sense to too few people to make too much of an actual argument. too much attention to the previous sentence if you have taken the time to read to this point.
I used to TL;DR, but then I took a bullet point to the footnote.
I don't think this type of thing hasn't happened because of religious reasons. I believe it's the game Dante's Inferno where you finish the game by trying to avoid getting hit by the devil's giant pen1s while also trying to kill him or somehow crawl up his body without touching it. If that didn't offend any religious people out there, I don't see how trying to act out ceremonial magic would.
There are lots of reasons why this wouldn't happen, mostly resulting in lack of money.
1) You're not macroing. If everyone has to continually learn how to cast a fireball spell, they are not going to want to play. Most people (not all, but most) simply want entertainment, not a job. I think the idea of making your own spell chains is cool...instead of hitting 1 button, you hit 1 button, hold it while you build up some energy, then in a quick sequence hit buttons 2 and 3 or buttons 3 and 4 depending on what you want to do. You have to watch repetition though...if it's repetitive, it has to be easy.
2) It's not a popular theme. It doesn't do well in movies and while it might do well in books, it would be romance books, so the magic and ceremony would not be the primary focus. They would be part of the scenery.
3) You're going to end up with pretty standard PvE and PvP regardless, even if the setting is ceremonial magic. If you've actually read about what they did, there were no fireballs or energy moving or any of that. They drew 9 foot circles in the floor, killed someone and hoped that the devil or an angel would do their bidding. Or (as did Mr. Crowley) they would hope the being would possess them and answer questions and in the end do their bidding. What I've described isn't anything people are going to play an MMO game to do (I don't think).
While I'm not saying it can't be done, because anything can be done, you'd have to filter a lot of the historical stuff and make it interesting to a modern audience. More ceremony or interaction is good. Drawing a virtual 9 foot circle and killing a virtual virgin to ask a question probably wouldn't go over to well. Wouldn't sell to well at any rate.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Hehe, good point.
I think a magick system more based on the concepts of our world would be interesting. I'd say it would by and large be ritual magick. Tho I am not sure if that would be cool to play in a MMO. The magick traditions of our world, let's say Kabbalah or Wiccan rituals, are probably relatively boring to exercise in a game. Imagine a 2 hour invocation of the spirit of Geburah to cast a damage spell on someone...
But I CAN imagine a more elaborate and mystic magic system than the simple ones we have, insofar I find the idea cool, to rework magick systems in a way that you feel more like a Magician or Wizard than you do right now. Magic in MMOs today is more a mere alteration of ranged weapons. So instead of a rifle you use a magic missle. Which isn't really so cool over time. I would need some RP and story to make this more vivid, that for instance a mage has to undergo some initiation ritual every 10 levels or so. Or make some ritual to unlock new spells.
I think the magic system of games can use some more love to detail. Good thinking, OP.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
*cough* Actually it IS the right term, speaking of magic in our world which is not stage illusionism. Buuuut... I don't want to blow up some people's heads by discussing this.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Most of the discussion still seems to miss the point players really care about: gameplay.
Frostbolt-fireball-fireball (and similar combos) has some depth; some "combo"; some thought. Eeven if the vast majority of encounters are so easy that the extra efficiency isn't needed, the sequence matters.
Does anything change about this sequence when we repackage magic as magick? And if so, what're the specifics?
Because like I said earlier, it sounds like the fiction behind this stuff is all ritual pre-combat spellcasting, which doesn't leave very many interesting decisions to be made during gameplay.
Basically what I'm saying is the fiction is irrelevant. It could be anything. It already is anything (WOW's spell elements are hardly the most indepth, nor do they need to be.) It's the gameplay players care about.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Good to see that some people get where I'm coming from.
Yeah, well I wasn't saying follow the rituals completely to the T. I'm just saying set the theme to that level. You wouldn't have to do a ritual dance for 4 hours or sacrifice a sheep or anything crazy like that, but still you could have many phases in spells that are symbolic of historical magic (I'm leaving the K off of that from now on, too many people flip out, its freaking bizarre.)
Just making magic a little more mystical, artsy and important feeling. Like you said, if Fireball = an arrow but with a different effect, it starts making magic just seem like another thing to make numbers go across your screen.
I have no idea how much spell-preparation would be required in a game like this. But I would definitely like there to be MORE preparation, complexities and things to take into account than there is now (reagents, chants, phases, alignments). Magic should be the dominant art in a magic world, but that still doesn't mean it is easy to do.
I also don't think that someone should be able to get hit with a flaming meteor and just get up and drink a potion. Meteors should KILL someone instantly, however, a spell of Meteor should definitely be hard to cast. But that's an aspect of realism, that doesn't necessarily have to be incorporated in this type of game.
Would be interesting. But i have to disagree about melee characters. I think meele characters could pawn magic users just fine. I think magic mostly lays outside of direct combat. Basically its more like a person bringing a battle ax to a chemist convention.
LOL not everyone thinks like you bro, sure game play is very important, but a lot of people DO care about the theme and the fiction behind it. Just because you don't care about the lore/theme/concept/creativity of a game doesn't mean everyone is the same.
I'm also saying that casting 1 fireball would be more complex, you'd have to learn how to do it, be attuned to fire (or something similar to that), and have the reagents. Something to that effect, I'm not trying to make the whole game I'm just giving the general idea. Just a game where magic actually feels like a complex process, like it originally was thought to be.
However, in a game like this, a fireball would probably be a little more devastating than other games where you can throw 5 flaming balls at a Zebra and it is still at half life.
I agree. Gameplay first. Fiction is secondary. Fiction can be drawn on top of any good gameplay, but good fiction doesn't necessarily make good gameplay.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
It is not about caring so don't create any sides (gameplay vs. lore). It is about good design. Lore is the one easier to change here. Like I wrote in my previous post: It is harder to fit good gameplay to lore than fit your lore to good gameplay.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Well okay. You're right.
It's not irrelevant (as in irrelevant to everyone.)
It's irrelevant to the vast majority.
These comments are made, of course, comparing WOW-like lore vs. this proposal's lore. Few would be interested in completely lore-less games with white square "characters" using abilities which are literally called "Snare A" and "Nuke B". People care about lore, but for the vast majority it takes a backseat to gameplay (if a game isn't fun, very few will keep playing it for lore alone.)
Really it's the focus on gameplay with a backseat nod towards lore that is one of the many reasons behind Blizzard's success.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
'Magick' is a term popularized by Aleister Crowley and other such nitwits and societies who wanted to set themselves apart from the common 'stage magic' by throwing in some old English.
We're talking regular English now, so it's just magic.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
I think you would like the pnp rpg, Ars Magica, a very detailed game about Hermetic magi in 13th century Europe.
I couldn't remember the name of the game, but as you OP point number 3. Making magic more complex that button mashing - check out a single player game called Arx Fatalis. Looks like it is available on Steam. While you wont be blown away by the graphics now, it has a really fun magic system. You actually move your hand (in 1st person) in shapes of runes to cast spells. It seems wonky at first but when you et used to it it is quite immersive.
"Never met a pack of humans that were any different. Look at the idiots that get elected every couple of years. You really consider those guys more mature than us? The only difference between us and them is, when they gank some noobs and take their stuff, the noobs actually die." - Madimorga
I should have said originally that I think a game based on actual magic would be great. I agree that those people that might be offended should grow up - specifically accept the art and humanity of their traditions - i was just pointing out one reason why practically, I don't think its been done.
I do hope the Secret World does this. It seems to, be we are of course short on details.
"Never met a pack of humans that were any different. Look at the idiots that get elected every couple of years. You really consider those guys more mature than us? The only difference between us and them is, when they gank some noobs and take their stuff, the noobs actually die." - Madimorga
SWG (pre-cu) - AoC (pre-f2p) - PotBS (pre-boarder) - DDO - LotRO (pre-f2p) - STO (pre-f2p) - GnH (beta tester) - SWTOR - Neverwinter
I was running from a mage in nwn 1 pvp module with my barbarian inside a dungeon, then he apears from a corner next to me i was wielding a 2 handed axe clicked to attack the mage : attack roll: 20+7 =27= delivered 51 dmg on poor 7 lvl mage he died before he could say quititz (lol) (2 handed axe crit dmg is 20 x3)
Now i disagree mages even in d&d where they are overpowered they are that strong as u suggest but,i agree to some things u mention.
Yeah magic should be more nicely made in mmorpg's in terms of learning and even casting. If anyone played arx fatalis its the best and more realistic way to cast magic spells(you make drawings of symbols in the air with waving your hands to perform each spell) check videos on youtube to see what i mean.
I think also that in general magic is missed from latest mmorpg's.
As you can see, this type of game would NOT be for the vast majority.
Blizzards success with WoW is also it's failure, so many people play WoW, yet so many people don't like it, and even alot of WoW players talk shit about it. It is successful because it appeals to the masses. Just like mainstream radio, it's the typical, same old stuff, yet easy to learn the words and sing along with the rest of the world.
What you don't understand is that the lore would tie in with the gameplay. Like I said, I'm not a game designer, I don't have all the technical aspects or how everything will work, but I can name a few games that designed there magic so it wasn't as boring as the magic seen in MMOs (and most games) today.
Ultima online, Sacrifice, NoX, Arx Fatalis, these games had similar aspects in lore/gameplay with magic to what I'm describing, except what I'm talking about would be more complex, and have a loose theme based off of historical magic.
Required reagents, astrological alignments, runic words and all sorts would have an awesome lore and feeling behind it. And the gameplay would be awesome for more patient people who enjoy learning and feeling immersed rather than instant gratification via hitting fireball.
So it isn't just lore that I'm talking about it is better gameplay, but only better for people who like that kind of stuff.
But could you sell it? Or, more to the point, could you sell it to enough people to finance the creation of the game in the first place? The gameplay aspects aside (which I could see having a beneficial impact on the game), what would the rest of the game be like? Would every player who wanted to be at all powerful in the game be a mage? Would it work in an urban fantasy setting, or would it require a real world setting, just add ceremonial magic? Would it work in the 1800's or could you do the setting in 1990? And so on. I could see this working, but I could also see a lot of people getting angry because they got one shotted while trying to do their fireball sigil in the air and they just weren't any good at it.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Well that makes it hard to discuss anything if you insist "it's the lore I'm describing, except with awesome gameplay" and then when someone points out that a lot of this magic (fictionally) is ritual spellcasting which wouldn't be done in combat and your response is "but I said it'd be awesome gameplay!"
We could ask WOW Hunters if they felt having reagents (arrows) for their basic spells (abilities) was more or less fun than classes who didn't have to jump through an additional hoop.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I was going to say the same thing.
Ars Magica was a very detailed set of rules that revolved almost completely around magic. You had powerful and detailed mages, and then you had everybody else.
It was an interesting setting and game, but given the focus, it had somewhat limited appeal.
An MMO like that would probably also have limited appeal. That's not to say it'd be bad, just probably something that would appeal to fewer people than a more diverse fantasy setting.
Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.
I think in a fantasy world where there was magic, over time people through a process of natural selection would develop resistences or immunities to certain kinds of magics as a means of survival. We see examples of this in our own world, where different races have changed do to environmental factors. Hence, it is not necessarily a given that magic users would rule the world.
But if we are talking magic in the real world, it doesn't exist. You can call yourself a witch or a wiccan or whatever you want, but you have no special powers. Reality though is partly perception and if people are a little off yes they will start to believe in such things.
The only supernatural thing I have personally ever witnessed is two times I had a dream come true. Not interpretation mind you, but I actually had a dream, woke up, thought about it and remembered it, and then was surprised a couple days later when reality unfolded EXACTLY as it had in my dream. I've never experienced that since, and what is particularly strange is both events were mundane, but the presentation in the dreams was very strange, like an echo chamber and the dream was looped, repeating over and over until I woke up....which is why I remembered them.
Anyway, now I'm probably starting to sound a little off. LOL. There are things in the universe we don't yet understand, but I think 99% of magic is fake. The other 1% may not be magic per se but some force or affect of the universe we don't understand yet.
(Terranah takes off her tin hat.)
Language evolves, as does the meaning of words.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert