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Sandboxers explain something to me
twstdstrange
Member Posts: 474
I was wondering if there was a definite definition (as if there was any other kind) for the Sandbox MMO, or if it was more of a broader term with sub-definitions.
Is there a definition that everyone generally agrees with, or does everybody have a different view of what a sandbox should be?
Sometimes I hear that it should be an MMO without boundaries, meaning you aren't pushed into a certain activity or pushed into a chain of activities in a specific order. Sometimes I hear that Sandbox means the game supports player created content, etc.
I just wanted some clarification, or at the very least, some opinions.
Comments
Exploration, risk, reward, variety.
Sandbox I believe is simply setting>story
When I was a kid I could play ijn the sandbox and do whatever, the setting was consistent but my inagination was unlimited.
That being said, games where players define the content are not rounded thus they dont appeal to all.
In fact I believe the term sand box is entirely irrelevant.
Themepark as it applies to the current norm I believe conveys the experience properly
but sandbox is way to vague. I like the idea of "oersistent" worlds, but even that seems to imply something more along the lines of the current norm.
I believe the term that should replace sandbox is DYNAMIC (active and changing: characterized by vigorous activity and producing or undergoing change and development)
I believe that what we all seem to mean when we say "sandbox" is actuall better conveyed by using the term "dynamic world"
In a dynamic world you have a setting, but each individual crafts the overall story as they progress.
To the caterpillar it is the end of the world, to the master, it is a butterfly.
"Sandbox" to me is a list of features. Ditto for "Themepark". It's a list of features, and those features are often part of the core philosophy of the game.
* Players create everything or almost everything. A dagger of +10 butt whoopin' might drop off a dragon, but you could also craft it, buy it and/or sell it.
* Player guilds generally take precedence over NPC factions. NPC factions may exist, but they don't do much. The land they control doesn't change hands and they don't take player or guild controlled lands or areas.
* Players can own and control land or areas. They generally do this through guilds (corporations in Eve Online). For example, in Eve you own a ship that moves around. It's like a mobile home for something like Ultima Online (I think you could build houses there, right?) - but to control a planet or star system, you need a corporation.
* Having control of land or areas means you get resources from those lands. It could be rent from people who live there, minerals and such from mines, food from farms, etc. It just depends on what the developers have included in the game.
* While the progress of your character doesn't follow the same model as World of Warcraft, that doesn't mean there are no goals. Individuals accumulate resources and property. Groups do the same, but on a larger scale.
* There is a focus on Player versus Player, but this may not include combat. In A Tale In The Desert, political control is important, because you can't even slap anyone. In Eve, a spy can take a corporation down just as well as a fleet of ships. In doesn't have to be combat, but your main adversary is going to likely be other players in some way.
* There is probably no universal bank or instantaneous delivery of goods. If you put stuff in a bank in Town A, it won't magically show up in Town B.
* The game mechanics focused around these ideas are generally more developed than in a comparable game that primarily uses Themepark mechanics. Crafting will likely be more complex since it's a primary focus. Guilds (corporations) will generally be more complex and may actually have Treasurers, Guards, Delivery Drivers, etc.
This is what goes through my head when I hear "Sandbox". I can kind of see the philosophy behind it; but it really boils down to game mechanics for me. I'd like to see more Sandbox mechanics in our Themepark games...but that's a whole different discussion.
* edit - Mozilla's spellcheck doesn't work with the mmorpg post editor.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
And mining is boring. I swear I think that's a game mechanic in every Sandbox game. Why can't you hire helpers or build mining robots or summon demons or something?
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
ok? so you tried something and didn't like it. don't do it. it isn't mandatory.
It's not a sandbox game unless you can AFK most tasks in the game.
(Well not really, but the actual implementation of most sandbox games sure makes it seem that way.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Second Life is the pure definition of sandbox, but it's not an mmorpg, it's a virtual world.
An honest review of SW:TOR 6/10 (Danny Wojcicki)
Good responses so far, I think it's really falls into one answer...Player Enforced Rules.
Darkfall and EvE have these. Players enforce territorial, market/economy interests, building/crafting prospects within the games mechanics. That's it. I could make 25 bullet comments, but that's it. If you do something to me in either of those games, what can I do? Post about on the game forum? Call for NPC guards? Fight back? Get friends and kill you and your friends? Decide that we should become friends and make the best of the situation?
Games provide the players with the rules and then collectively step back and allow them to do what they want, within the game's rules, that is a sandbox...to me.
I play Mount and Blade and that is a free roam style game as apparently Red Dead Redemption is. These are "quasi" sandboxes but again, you are NOT interacting with other humans. You are changing the world around you in a "open" environment, but it's restricted to your viewing only.
I don't have a problem with themeparks b/c those games are designed for a certain type of player, or someone seeking this type of experience. Sandboxes are made for a different type of player. I find the problem is when players that either have no experience playing Sandboxes or for whatever reason want the game changed to what THEY think it should be.
If DF and EvE players joined WoW or City of Heroes and started demanding changes, they would be asked to leave. However, if one of those players join EvE, and then start complaining about FFA PvP loot, etc, it's a "niche" game now for a few hardcore psychopaths. This is a failure to research a game prior to joining, nothing more.
Playing: BF4/BF:Hardline, Subnautica 7 days to die
Hiatus: EvE
Waiting on: World of Darkness(sigh)
Interested in: better games in general
Sandbox = virtual living world
Nice post! I would also add that in most Sandbox MMO's, players aren't forced into one type of "class". Rather they either do things in the game to raise their stats via crafting or combat etc, or as they gain experience the player is given points to distribute over a vartiety of skills..or sometimes both.
Sandbox has more player created content. Themepark has more developer created content. Its never all or nothing for either type. Just one type leans one way and the other the oppostite way. Thats about the most basic way i can think of exlplaining it
If you really want to see "sandbox" gaming, the very first application of it I can think of or ever played was Pirates! for PC. This awesome CGA pre-post game was just amazing. It was far supieror to it's later counter part. Sid Meir's best game. That to me defined sandbox. Sandbox isn't about player created content, it's about what you can do with the content provided. The player created content is just fluff.
A lot of games, it's difficult to label them as being more 'Sandbox,' or more 'Theme Park.' However, I think the biggest differences amount to this:
- Theme Parks tend to have NPCS send you to specific places, and your journey through the game is crafted this way. Any place an NPC doesn't send you is not worth going to. In a Sandbox game, you are usually given reason to explore on your own, without it being limited to set places. And without a set journey mandated by NPCs, exploration itself becomes of great value in a Sandbox game. With no specific reason to go to any individual place, any individual place has the potential to become a treasured spot to someone, whether it's for resources, scenery, or whatever other reason.
- Theme Parks tend to be unchangeable. No matter how many people experience t, it will always reset and be exactly the same for the next million people. Sandbox games tend to be changed by the players. It's the Sandbox games that allow you to erect player housing out in the world, to decorate, to create player towns, to create special vendors, to permanently capture these places from others, etc.
- While this next one isn't originally part of what Sandbox vs Theme Park meant, nowadays a Theme Park game is mostly about combat. Sandbox games tend to be the games that have the most options for things to do outside of combat. For example, pre-NGE Star Wars Galaxies allowed a player to have a full long-term game experience where they never killed a single thing. You could be a dancer, musician, crafter, or merchant. You could run factories, explore, survey, extract special resources that came about randomly and will never be duplicated again. You could set up a house out in the world, even create a town with your friends. You could decorate that house, or cantina, or spaceport in ways that were mostly limited by your own imagination. You could give other players reasons to come see your decorated home by creating vendors (humanoids or droids,) dressing them, programming messages for them to say, and placing items of interest on them for players to buy. With no central Auction House, players would come from all over the galaxy to your residence to buy these things, and then be astounded by your amazing decorating job, often sending you compliments or telling their friends to check it out. If you set up a town with some other people, you could add a shuttle-port there (WoW equivalent would be a flight master,) thus adding another travel option for everyone else in the game. These are all common elements of Sandbox games. Theme Parks tend to avoid these sorts of options, in favour of spending extra time on balancing combat and creating more raid instances.
The definition of sandbox does change from person to person, though there are usually some elements that most agree on. For me, what makes a sandbox is that it is like a sandbox. You can make things and they have some degree of permanence, whether it is a house, a ship, a shop full of weapons, or armor, or stims, or whatever, all player made. I could choose whatever role I wanted, in any combination. I defined it, not the game. That is what makes a sandbox.
There is also mixed in there the risk that somebody will come along and knock your sandcastle down. :-)
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
The guy who invented the terms 'sandbox' and 'theme park' had these definitions:
Theme park is a game like Mario Brothers where you are literally on rails.
Sandbox is pretty much any MMO. In an MMO you at least have the freedom to move around.
Not sure how the words were co-opted.
Story driver versus player driven might be better terms.
A themepark mmo is one which is 'guided' pretty much all the way through, each player has a role and a path to follow and there is next to no deviation from that path. 'Endgame' is simply rinse and repeat content in the form of yet another raid or yet another meaningless BG. The world is, whilst explorable, not dynamic.
A sandbox is an mmo which is primarily player driven. The player has no limitation in what he can do in terms of 'roles' and he/she can attempt to do what they like, when they like, where they like with/against whomever they like. 'Endgame' in a sandbox is.. well there isn't one as the whole point of them is that it is the community that is everything, so in essence endgame is both accessible from the off and unlimited (within reason of what can be coded) in scope. The world is both open and dynamic.
Essentially.
Themepark - Pigeon hole classes and quest routes. A non dynamic world with heavy restrictions and full on instances. No scope for players to make their own role within the game.
Sandbox - No classes, people simply do what they want to do and pick and chose the skills/tools to do as such. A highly dynamic gameworld which is dominated by the players themselves, with little or at least 'open' instancing and no restrictions on game type by area. Full scope for players to make their own roles.
An example of themepark play:
Player A goes and loots some goods, then sells them to player B who crafts them and adds them to an auction house or his own vendor.
An example of sandbox play:
Player A goes and loots some goods, knowing that he may be attacked by player B so he hires player C to act as a bodygaurd. Player D then pays player E to haul those goods from player A so that he can craft them and sell them.
The sandbox version allows for the players to define their own roles outside of the basic game mechanics. The themepark does not.
Some examples of themeparks - WoW/LoTRO/WAR.
Some examples of sandboxes - DF/EVE/UO.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Shadowbane is a good example of a typical 'Sandbox' environment.
No quests, nothing - it's completely player driven community,
and intriguing politics among ancient guilds.
Darkfall is another 'sandbox'.
The Shadowbane Emulator (SBEmu) http://www.shadowbaneemulator.com
I think we can probably agree on themeparks being mostly developer-driven, and sandbox being mostly player-driven. Everything else comes at a player's taste.
My personal definition is:
- Skill-based: there are no classes (i still can accept loose classes like in the old SWG)
- Infinite growth: you don't actually "finish" progressing your character (see Eve Online), as that, for me, is a game-over (unsubscribed WoW shortly after hitting the 60).
- Non-linear world (aside from starting/tutorial zones, every area has the potential to entertain both the latest newcomer and the day-1-veteran... again, see Eve Online)
- Powerful crafting, with advanced material system (see old SWG, random resource types and variable production outcomes)
- Territorial control: aside from a safe, uncontested free-for-all area with fewer resources there should be contestable richer areas (see Eve Online).
- Player-driven politics: NPC factions should have only limited effect, mostly in the NPC-controlled safe zones, conflicts and alliances should be managed by players (Eve Online)
- Market-based, local economy with locally available resources (no global auction houses, and few common resources you can obtain everywhere - rare ones should be territory-specific).
- No cheap instant-traveling, game world should be perceived as huge. Also, that contributes towards a meaningful economy.
Assuming the costs are entirely the same, if you give people the option of playing in a sandbox or visiting a themepark, the vast majority of them will choose the latter. People are like electricity; they will always take the path of least resistance.
Nice catch, twstdstrange! Pulled in some big ones, too!
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I didn't get that from their post at all. It's an interesting question. What is a "Sandbox" MMO to you? There are games that most people have accepted as "Sandbox" games, but what does that really mean? For that matter, why aren't there more sandbox features in the themepark games? There's no technical reason you couldn't do it. Is it a philisophical difference, or a mechanical difference? i.e. Would having a Sandbox Economy destroy end game raiding in World of Warcraft?
If you keep your personal opinion about which is better out of it, it's interesting to see what people think about it.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Well u cant have "sandbox" in a "good vs evil" game like WoW, or WAR. It defies the first rulle of the sandbox, free choice. In thempark games the player iteractions are reduced to pug vs monsters, period. The only reason to make a guild/clan in WoW is to "farm better" and eliminating tards out of the pool for the next raid.
In my limited experience, I viewed a "sandbox" game as one where I chose a character and no profession was glued to it. I had the choice to become and then change what profession I wanted. Instead of having the character and profession permenately joined together and have to make a different character when I wanted a change. I get very attatched to my character and have a very hard time making an "alt", just to do something else. I might want two professions at one time, but most of the time I just wanted to do something different with my favorite character. That also makes it easier to remember people if they do not have multiple characters.
I'll be as brief as possible.
Two defining examples of a sandbox for me are Ultima Online and Star Wars Galaxies. I think that is the "Starting point" or "baseline" for what I would call a sandbox. The one thing I want to stress that some people miss about sandbox games is that you MUST have the TOOLS to play the game and have your own "Stories" to tell people. Example: In UO the tools are the permanent housing system, tailoring/blacksmithing/alchemy, treasure hunting, usable and steerable boats, board games/dice/taverns/in-game liquor, etc.
Many games now adays try to give an empty shell of a world and try to say "Here, have fun". When there are only 2 features. Combat and simple crafting.
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