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Permadeath as a Hero, or Safety as a Normal. Choice & Heroism.
Emergence
Member Posts: 888
What do you guys think of a MMO system which allows players to unlock a "hardcore" mode which gives them a much higher skill/level/stat/equipment cap, at the cost of possible permadeath?
That players are allowed to gain skill from 1 to 100. No permadeath. Can equip up to Epic weapons. Normal max HP. Can take on 1v1 or if player and character are really good, MAYBE 1v2.
Players who activate "hardcore" mode are now permadeath enabled, but can rise up to 150 or 200 skill. Can equip Legendary weapons. Max HP doubled. Can now take on 1v2 or even 1v3 with ease, perhaps 1v5 if very powerful and player skilled.
In PvP, only players with permadeath are "Bosses" or "Heroes" while the majority of players are "Normals" or "Regulars". Granted, the normals can still be very powerful, but even the best of them aren't a match for a "Hero". But the normals can't permadie. The Hero can. And if "Normals" are bothered by overpowered "Heroes", they need only use teamwork to take the "Hero" down...and they only need to do it ONCE.
Think about Left4Dead. How many times do the zombie players die before being able to kill a human?
Risk vs Reward.
What do you think?
Another way to look at it, let's say there are races. Playing as a Dragon is "hardcore" and all dragons suffer permadeath. So do the other "rare races" such as Vampire, Angel, Demon, etc. Any other race is normal and doesn't die. These "rare races" are much more powerful though, with much more potential.
Would THIS be okay?
Discuss!
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
Comments
I like the idea a lot and personally - though I never were a Jedi or even met one in those days - it reminds me of the old SWG system when IIRC Jedis could perma-die.
To be honest I think this kind of permadeath is the only permadeath option that is interesting to me. Balancing it may be tough though, there needs to be enough risk vs. enough reward.
Also, you detail PvP a lot, but what about PvE?
At that, are we talking world pvp? Would they perma-die if they died once in PvP? What about the zerg-problem?
I'm quite sure you figure all such things must be solved should such a system be implemented and mostly wonder about the concept, but I'm still curious about your thoughts. ^^
I already have a fully developed (possible) permadeath system with fault-catchers all over the place :P
1) Permadeath is only a % chance upon death. Even if this is only a 10% chance, the fact it is possible makes ANY death very scary and risky. I believe this gives the same Reward as 100% permadeath, but with 90% less suffering! The point is FUN and CHALLENGE- adrenaline pumping escapes and victories. Not to make players cry.
2) PvP is instanced. There will always be 100% balance of player #'s for both sides. Linkdead players also act as defensive NPC bots until they get to safety and log out or time out. This is to protect players, while preventing Linkdead abuse.
3) There is no FFA Open PvP. Fighting other players always requires consent, and is only done so in specific zones (if open world PvP) or instances (Battlegrounds).
3) PvE is both instanced and open-world. Some zones and dungeons have 0% Permadeath. Some have less % permadeath. The hardest have max 100% permadeath. Players are told the % chance of permadeath before entering a dungeon or zone. All dungeons can be increased in difficulty, as well as reward. (For some bosses to spawn, a specific difficulty might be required. Otherwise he "escaped")
4) There are other penalties besides permadeath. Possibility of being "captured" and requiring a ransom (Gold Cost) or requiring a rescue Quest (playing an ALT, or paying the Ransom Gold Cost). Although there are multiple means of playable rescues, there is always the possibility of just paying the Gold Cost and instantly getting your character back.
5) PvP- players have a choice to Ransom if they slayed a player in PvP. This means 0% permadeath in exchange for a set gold amount. Players also have a choice to show no mercy and hope for permadeath.
6) Progression is Fast.
7) Not all progression can be lost. Crafting, Harvesting, Trading, Bank, Currency, Items- All of these things cannot be killed. They are 100% safe and are tied to the account, not the characters.
8) All items break. Item loss upon death is not a big deal. Those items will break anyways. Epic/Legendary Equipment is attached to the Account with Durability or Hour Usage. Blood Swords break after dealing [x] damage. Legendary Named Weapons are magical in that they always happen to get lost, transfer owners, etc. Some Legendary items are cursed or blessed, giving higher/lower % of permadeath until broken- this is an extremely rare enchantment.
9) Every Epic/Legendary has only 1 or 2 powerful enchantments. There are scores, possibly hundred+ enchantments which are all epic in power. This makes for every character you play having a special weapon or item. "Glamdring, Orcrist, Vladimir's Spear, The Goblin King's Crown, The One Ring, etc."
10) Players may choose to be "Normal" and never suffer permadeath. They will be weaker than "Heroes" though.
11) Monster Play is a big part of PvP- and all Monster Characters are permadeath enabled. They're temporary and respawn many times. (Think Left4Dead zombies). Players earn Monster Points which can be used to play as more powerful creatures, even SubBosses, or purchase Boss Tokens which give them a /roll to become a Finale Boss. Only the player who wins loses a Token. How good a player does can add a bonus to his roll.
12) All Dungeons can be played in PvP mode, where players control specific Monsters, making for a unique dungeon experience. There is no desire for the Monsters to let the humans win. No communication allowed, and all monsters are randomized, so players cannot purposefully get in instances with their friends.
13) All rewards are equal and # of rewards scale with # of players in group. A treasure chest gives out 1 treasure to each player. A group of 2 will each get 1 treasure, a total of 2. That same chest would give a group of 6, each 1 treasure, a total of 6. There is NO PENALTY AT ALL for grouping. All XP is the same, all loot the same, only an easier experience.
14) Tanks play a very important role in protecting crippled players from 100% damage. Players will not die as long as they are protected by a tank who is alive.
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
this sounds kinda like what you are talking about. http://shaiya.aeriagames.com/guide/modes
ultimate mode gives better stats, skills, and gear but your character will be deleted upon death if you arent ressed in 3mins.
Permadeath is still too harsh in my eyes -- there are too many system oriented things and/or bad luck which can cause a death even if you are perfect. As it stands the only game I made it to the cap without dying once in was LOTRO.
Now extremely harsh death is another story...
If the hero characters // dragons/angels/demons/whatever took TWO WEEKS to reform when they died -- that would be more reasonable. Now death really does have a sting as the rest of the server leaves you behind. You can't play your hero character for a LONG TIME so killing it does definitely benefit the "other side" that killed you.
---
I could easily see a PvP oriented game where you can make as many normals as you want but only ONE hero character. If your hero character bites it -- you can't play him for 2 full weeks.
Now bringing out // levelling the hero characters is a big thing and preventing such on the other side is another big thing. You take out a player's hero and they are stuck playing characters that provide less for their realm.
If you could obtain max level within 2 weeks, wouldn't it be pointless to be unable to play for 2 full weeks? Doesn't that just consume a character slot? And if you play a lot, even without faster progression, in two weeks you won't even want him back.
I wonder why everyone assumes that if an MMORPG has permadeath, then it also has Extremely Slow Progression, taking years to reach max level. That would be simply...well...dumb... Progression has to be fast in a permadeath game.
Other than that, you have a good idea. I just don't see the point when you could just have permadeath and have it take 1-2 weeks to reach max level. Having to start over and make a new Hero is much more fun than waiting 2 weeks IRL.
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
Well it doesnt NEED to be as harsh as 2 weeks... It could serve its purpose being ONE week out if levelling is easy. Thing is people get attached to their characters and if levelling is really fast and death is permanent you will lose that attachment. Being a temporary hero mook will make it more like an FPS than an MMO. It will also make those 1-2 weeks of levelling a real grind to people as they do the same thing over and over and over.
You would of course have the option to simply delete the character who died in my extension to your idea and start over. The main difference there is instead of inflicting constant re-levelling through the same content on someone, this just takes the character out for the same duration. If your hero character is not max level already, sure, deleting it might be the best option.
The whole idea here though is to make it a true victory for the other side to eliminate a hero character as opposed to they zerg back into the battlefield like current games generally are. It is also to make death sting.
Since you only get one hero character under what I described you would always want it back -- or at least the slot back.
While I'm not strongly negative on the idea (Haven & Hearth already uses a functionally similar system) it's not really a great choice to give players imo.
Inevitably if I'm playing a MMORPG I'm doing so because I want a fun progression game. So the moment I perma-die I'm gone from the game most likely.
If a game lets me play without permadeath but constantly kicks me in the shins ("ha-ha, you're not a hero!") then well...that's not a very nice game and I probably won't stick with it long.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Cool idea.
But what happens when everyone wants to activate hardcore mode?
Really though, I like the idea a lot.
I'd have it completely differently.
Heroes would have no statistical benefit over normal people, they would just get treated differently by NPCs and perhapes get access to special areas and quests.
To become a Hero would involve rare GM events where the player deemed the most 'Heroic' is granted an ingame title, forum title, symbolic Hero armour, a page on the games website with an image and a life story/archievement created by the player or the community team if they wished.
Artifical bonuses to me are just cheap ways of making someone a 'Hero', they should earn it and gain Dev backed roleplay to make them famous as a Hero should be.
I like the idea of a sorta-perma death, I played a game a hundred years ago, and it was essentially perma death, with a twist, you were given 6 deaths per level, the game had no level limit. Every time your character levelled, your lives were refurbished. If you lost all yours lives your character was essentially rerolled and you were able to keep 60% of your exp/skills to roll another toon.
This was a full loot pvp game and it made for some interesting times, especially if you were low on lives and trying to hit the next level for both new power and life replenishment
my 2
"All expectation leads to suffering" Buhhda
The idea is good, except if the game is FFA PVP with no PVP flags then this could get kind of iffy. The system you described is much like the jedi system in old SWG. It was a good idea then and I think it's a good idea now. The differences with the SWG system and your system is that in SWG you made a whole new character to be the jedi/hero, instead of transforming your current guy into one. I think this is a plus as when you lose your hero, you still have your regular guy to fall back on.
The second difference was flags for pvp. As a permadeath jedi, you couldn't be killed in pvp without voluntarily flagging yourself for pvp. I'm against PVP flags, but depending on just how harsh this perma death feature ends up being, it may be a good idea to have a different mechanic to prevent permadeath as a result of griefing tactics.
It is really an interesting idea i was thinking about something similar that would make the most skilled player win vs 20 noobs literally and make the combat feel more epic but didnt want to use permadeath and stats differrence, i havent really thought of permadeath in that in that detail though. I like the idea and how it works
Would be good to also have many races/classes for diversity and have people do something new in case of death
I am not really sure about this cause it is based on luck(which is a bad thing for gameplay) plus that 10% will make the player even more angry when he dies compared to the expected 100% death. If there is a well known player hero and many clans want him dead and try to kill him and everytime they succed they see him survive because of luck it will eb bad and annoying. I would suggest something like 10% chance at first death then 50% chance at the second death and 100% chance in the third death some someone who is just lucky doesnt get away all the time
battlegrounds balanced in numbers, i guess you mean balanced in x number of hros and x number of regulars in both side so no side has a stat advantage
I understand how frustrating it would be to have unfair pvp(stats or group wise) everywhere but you need at least a few open open pvp zones with some content like quests or something really important so players go there for a reason and are not just searching around for pvp.
Open world pvp can be unfair but its fun, yes humans tend to like and have fun in unfair situation(as long as they are on the winnign side lol). I dont mean having pvp in basic areas where everyone will need to go but in some really high level storyline or gear area(so you dont get the "top" gear so easily, plus somekind of disadvantage to the heroes that already have taken that gear and are trying to camp the dungeon so noneone else can get it) where you will need to be in group in order to survive, of course every player would know that it is a pvp area when he enters
Plus adding some small ffa zones like colisuem or other big battlegrounds inside open/closed buildings that are made only for fun and are completely optional
I guess those would be hero only dungeons so players wont be able to just test the dungeon with regulars and know the difficulty level and every detail so they can try to be safe, but it also depends on the dungeon npc complexity on each difficult- Sooner or later peoples will start uploading videos so dont make it easier with regulars
You might consider making each difficulty different so dungeon isnt just a straight path that depending on the difficult you get more bosses deeper you go inside
Hehe reminds me of eve online pirate asking for ransom before blowing up the ship, its nice xD
Losing epic/legendary is good but there should be a way so they are not forced to do the same dungeon again and again and again to get the same weapon again.
Blood swords would be easier to get??like shops??
I voted good and bad , cause the system is more balanced for risk versus rewards .
You take the risk you gain the reward or the penalty .
So in my eyse this sound really beter tought out .
The problem is that risk with your 2nd post is highly negilible .
It isn´t so much of a risk to warrant the 200% boost .
But then again its beter then saying perma death excist . so this mmo might attract more people.
Then the previous ideas of perma death .
So go for it , this idea sound beter tought out then previous , perma death threats
Interesting concept but who is going to pay for a game and a sub to play for months leveling and gearing their character just to be a second class citizen. All to basically be fodder for "hero" characters. I think all you will have is heros left playing after everyone quits.
No good player or pvp minded guild would ever even roll a non-hero, the only people rolling normal characters would be PvE minded and poor players to begin with.
If you have one group of heros take out 3-4 groups of people constantly over and over how exactly are you going to keep all these sheep interested in PvP? People like to win once in a while.
While the whole thing sounds very promising. Two things comes to mind:
1) Heroes/hardcore players are very vunerable at early stages. Those bonuses doesnt come straight away. This is more of a challange, but still....
2) easy to exploit, say you in a guild, get 10 of your guys to be heroes. unkillable as you'll support each other. then it becomes either other guilds do the same (everyone will be in the same playing level) or ppl just dont care (at this point why bother playing in the first place.
This idea imo sounds damn near perfect.
I would change it though however. Though this is the best and fair perma-death option i've seen. i would add a lock option. Once you have your hero exactly where you want him. skills and all. You have the option to lock your hero. once locked he cannot be unlocked. so you lock with caution, or dont lock and risk perma-death at the cost of progression.
damn...i would totally play that shit.
Yes. Blood Swords are one of the most common rare weapons.
I decided as lead dev to implement specific goals and structures that everything MUST abide by. This helps us collect ideas and resources to be consistent. It also helps spur creativity: "Okay, so you thought of the Legendary version. What about the Epic or Common ones? Are there any?"
All items fall into a tier of power and rarity.
I will provide
Grey (Mass Produced Items which Minions equip. Heroes aren't even allowed to equip this peasant gear.)
Mass Produced Copper Swords- 5 Dps, 2 Speed, 100 Uses. Minion Only.
Rarity 1 White (Base Weapon- Nothing Special, Very Common)
Iron Sword- 10 Dps, 2 Speed, 100 Durability.
Rarity 2 Green (Common, Small Bonuses)
Steel Sword- 20 Dps, 2 Speed, 200 Durability.
Rarity 3 Yellow (Uncommon, Bonuses, Banes)
Mythril Sword- 40 Dps, 1 Speed, 200 Durability.
Rarity 4 Red (Rare, Bonuses, 1 Enchantment, Curses/Blessings)
Blood Sword- 50 Dps, 2 Speed, 0 Durability (Breaks after 10k damage), Lifedrain Enchantment, Cursed: Monster Aggro.
Rarity 5 Blue (Epic, Bonuses, 2-3 Enchantments)
Broken Blade of Rafa- 50 Dps, 1 Speed, Unbreakable, Lost on Death, LifeDrain Enchant, Cursed: All Monster Aggro, Quest Possibility: "Quench the Thirst".
Rarity 6 Purple (Legendary, Multiple Enchantments, Life-Altering Blessings/Curses, Special Quests Attached)
Unquenching Blade of Rafa- 100 Dps, 1 Speed, Turns back into Broken Blade of Rafa after (X) damage, Bound to Account (Not lost on death), Improved LifeDrain Enchant, Cursed: All Monster Aggro, Random Quests- "Lifedrain" Player can choose to postpone quest, but can't use item again until quest is resolved. Repeatable quest to fix the blade by murdering innocents. Possible Massive Faction Loss (but only if caught).
Legendary Weapons are very very rare. This is a must because there are so few of them actually in the game. (Not few as in few actual items, there will be multiple of the same Legendary weapon, but few as in few unique Legendary Weapons in the database.) Why? Because special attention must be payed to issue at minimum 1 special, albeit short quest per Legendary Weapon. Lore must be written and implemented.
How do Legendary Weapons work? They may be sold in the market...but in a Lore-Restricted way. Players sell the Quest, not the actual item. Quests for legendary weapons are usually entire Adventures which may require group members. Any member who participates in a Legendary Adventure gets a very good reward, so players will want to help others as much as they will want the Legendary Weapon.
It all depends on the Lore.
There is one legendary thieves weapon which is randomly placed in an NPC's pocket. Thieves may quest for information of where it might be, where it is not, etc. This information can be sold to other players via Contract quests. A rich thief can hire multiple thieves to quest for information. Information is actually a mini-game inside of the game, which is implemented in all types of adventures and quests. Contracting quests is also a key feature in Emergence, and quite simple. It is essentially Quest Sharing, but the contractor gets the quest reward (and only he knows what it is) while the rest simply get a task and a gold reward for it.
The actual NPC who holds the item? You must have the "information" for him to spawn. Once you know the city, it is only a few simple quests to find the npc. This is actually not as complicated as it sounds in terms of programming. It's a collect items quest which spawns a character- you just have to actually read to find out where he spawns, and when. You do not need all of the information, but you do need all of 1 of 3 sets.
Random Encounters are a big part of Emergence. It is one of the key features which makes the game unique and very different from traditional MMORPG's.
Luck is a big deal in Emergence. A roll of the dice can determine Death, Treasure Rarity, Quest Access, Zone Access, Random Encounters, Merchant Access, Dungeon Access, and the always- Critical Hit % and Skill Success. The idea in death isn't to make a player upset when he DOES die...but to make the player grateful he didn't die. This is as simple as saying "You are Dead." to all players, anytime they do. And if you don't die... a small movie appears, and you get another chance. Perhaps the 10% chance won't be of death, but of surviving. There are also other rewards, such as more character points at creation (a % of what you lost) as well as other events or even quests.
Another big part of Emergence is the use of other means of playing the game besides Combat & Crafting.
In essence, Emergence will be several different games inside of one game, with hundreds of mini-games within those games. A key concept we are sticking to is "Variety; Give players enough that they never get bored with one feature, because they are enjoying another."
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
Good and bad.
Lag, ISP problems and unstable computers makes perma death impossible in modern games. It might well be that the net will be fast enough in 5 years when the game is ready, but right now too many perma death chars would die due to technical problems.
I am not at all against the idea, but the problem is that if I would die due to a technical problem several times I would quit.
So I don't see it possible with todays technique, but it might be 5 years in the future, the net is a lot more stable today than a few years ago.
The game must also have great coding, lag because of bad coding is very common (like Neriak in EQ2).
If you want to win- use teamwork. No one said Heroes will take out 3-4 groups of people repeatedly. That's just silly. They will be powerful enough to take on...most likely 1 full group (5-6 players). This is most likely because Heroes have 5x the HP. 3-4 groups? They would kill the hero, every time. Only a poorly balanced game would make the Hero 20x more powerful, able to fight off 20-30 other players singlehandedly.
A good group can take down a toughter opponent every time. Especially in PvP, and especially in a Skill Based Game (Not a level based game).
Also, you need only kill them ONCE, while you can die as many times as you want. Victory is inevitable, because healing doesn't exist in the game outside of very small regen. And with the 5 wound levels, once you take out 20% chunks of the player's max HP, they cannot recover.
Have you ever played Left 4 Dead? People still like the play as the zombies, despite how they die constantly.
Let's say a hero has 1000 HP.
Healthy - 200HP
Hurt - 200HP
Wounded - 200HP
Severely Wounded - 200HP
Crippled - 200HP
***DEAD***
Normal Player- 200HP.
A group of normal players need only do 200 damage the first time. This is equal to their own life.
After that, the hero has only 800HP left and cannot heal above 800HP. If they do only 100 damage, leaving the hero at 900HP, he can heal back up to 1000HP.
So normal players or monster player's have a goal to wound the Hero, not kill them. Eventually, the Hero will retreat, or he will stay and become Crippled. Once crippled, the Hero will be just as weak as his opponents (only a small bonus, instead of a large one) and will have the exact same HP as them.
To say that players will not want to group up to take down heroes, when they have infinite lives and killing the hero takes away his life FOREVER...that's just silly!
I would JUMP at a chance to work in a group with 4 others to kill a single person, so that guy never gets to kill me ever again. Sure I will die a hundred times first...but I will slowly wear at him! And if I cause him to escape? Hahahaha! The Battleground is Ours, because we have our own hero!
Teamwork. This is what MMORPG's are about. If players want to play a singleplayer game and never work with others- they can be Heroes or play a different game. Emergence is a game developed for multiplayer, which means a focus on Community, Teamwork, and Grouping. But Soloing is completeley possible, especially as a Hero. And if your hero dies? Hop in as a Minion just like everyone else and continue playing! If you win, there is a higher % you wont suffer permadeath on your hero.
Our biggest problem isn't permadeath. We have that very well covered. Our biggest problem is giving Heroes a reason to stick around once Wounded or Crippled.
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
Jesus Mode: When you die it takes 3 days to respawn.
I had a similar idea except instead of a single switch it is more of a scale with 10 levels of death penalty in total.
1st death penalty is none at all it's like respawning in fps u get straight back into the action.
2nd-4th: death penalty is short term, extra armour damage, summoning sickness etc. let players choose which one they take that will give them more hp and unlock higher skills and give a relative bonus eg. armour damage increases armour effectiveness.
5th-7th: Are long term penalties, armour destroyed armour dropped, summoning sickness that lasts days etc.
8th - 10th: Permanant effects, losing a arm or leg, getting captured where enemy desides your fate, and perma death at 10.
As for skills I think a system where there is no limit to how high you train your skills but the bonus they give decreases the higher you go and the training time increases as well. The main bonuses however come from death penalty so while having higher skills gives you an edge against people in your death penalty bracket it won't be nearly enough for something like lvl 7 death penalty people to beat perma death people.... at least not solo.
Into the breach meatbags
1. I'm a Dragon! YES!
2. F*)%KING LAG!
3. I[object Window]m not a Dragon! NOOOO!
For those who do want Permadeath though, it[object Window]s a better idea than normal. Don[object Window]t force it on everyone.
remove the permadeath and it's a pretty good system. Instead of the permadeath have it so if they die (no extra chances) they loose their legendary status and other players may take it up. That in itself would be enough to make the risk vs reward meaningful.
MMO wish list:
-Changeable worlds
-Solid non level based game
-Sharks with lasers attached to their heads
Alpha classes don't work, period.
I really like this idea a lot. There was a game in development about 4 or 5 years ago that was planning on implementing a system that was almost identical to this........and annoyingly I cant for the life me remember what it was called. It was a standard fantasy game where players could choose to play a variety of races (goblin, dwarf, elf, treeman etc), some of which got along with each other and some of which were enemies. I was really hyped about it. Unfortunately the game never got finished and as far as I know the company behind it vanished into a black hole of obscurity.....or maybe its members moved onto other companies.
One important thing that they did differently to this system though was that no-one ever knew who was a hero character and who was a regular, as each player couldnt see each others hit points. This would have made it very difficult for regulars to speciificly target hero characters, although they could of course gang up on individuals as in any game I suppose. Permadeath also wasnt a guaranteed thing for heros. I think they were planning on having some system where the player would be taken to some kind of afterlife instance where they had to "fight for their life" (fail the instance and you die for good)......but they were still designing the game so they werent set on the idea at the time. I think they were planning on implementing a death penalty of some kind for all players regardless of hero or regular status though, so that even regulars would feel reluctant to throw their lives away.
Damn I wish I could remember the games name!