Randomizing zones isn't required though, as the playerbase is likely to be smaller than WoW or popular IP's at release.
But using these modular variables, I am able to better craft different zones. It takes time and thought, but each zone is going to have positives and negatives, as well as a difficulty in living there.
My goal is to have so many Modular Variables, that along with Seasonal Change, the game world never feels the same. People are always traveling from one end of the continent to the next.
Since all items decay in some way, it is required to travel across the world back and forth to get the best. Don't want to travel? Buy from a player merchant at a higher price.
I want to have at least most of the world already mapped out and planned before release. This includes resource allocation, dungeons, factions, and geography. For example, "The best arrows come from the Wood Elf King's Forest, but in Merlin's Forest you can harvest regular arrows much faster than anywhere else, so they're cheaper. Arrows are almost non-existent in the NorthWest of the world, so they are very expensive there, and usually only regular arrows are affordable."
Traveling IS a big deal...but you don't HAVE to travel everywhere. You play in one local area a whole bunch, and then after many hours of playtime switch to a different area. Traveling is not as common. But if you're a merchant, traveling is *the* thing to do. Don't want to travel but you do want to sell? Pay gold to have your items delievered to another city via a Trade Contract with other players, or at a very high price NPC's.
Fast-Travel is available, but it is extremely expensive for transporting goods, and still requires adventure for transporting characters. (In essence, fast-travel for characters is a 10 minute long mini-quest). No more boatrides.
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
so ur saying that u dont agree with fast traveling even if u have to make that 20min travel each day over and over just to get to that instance/quest/zone?.. cant see how there is any exploring involved in taking the same route over and over again.
just my 2 cent
I would prefer that, yes. It doesn't make sense in a lot of games to have this big of a world, which you don't see.
While doing the Wow Pelgrim holliday season and achievements, I couldn't disagree more.
I would go crazy travelling between Stormwind, Ironforge, Darnassus, Exodar without a heartstone AND a self crafted portal (Ir) AND the Tournament tabard AND the portals in Dalaran. and this for 4 days in a row to craft the turkey gun ... (which brakes after each shot on 8 different targets)...
Imagine the downtime without ANY aids (My guess it would be around 40 hours of running - sickening).
Count in the dinner you'll have to try to eat in the enemy capitols of Ogrimmar, Undercity, Stone Mountains and that ugly Blood Elf city and....(the real fun challenge on a pvp server btw).
I simply wouldn't play it IF that would all be done without fast travelling.
You'd go nuts if doing this on foot and ship.
To be fair, Blizzard designs things like Thanksgiving with the idea of x minutes worth of total travel time.
In a game without fast travel, Blizzard would design it to be the same x minutes -- you just wouldn't see as many or as varied locations as you currently do, because you'd travel less distance.
In a way, this provides more evidence in favor offast travel, as the Thanksgiving event would be less interesting if you only traveled within a small proximity of where the quest starts (and so you'd see less interesting terrain variety.)
I see nothing wrong with GM's opening up portals during the Holidays that allow for fast-travel in a game that would otherwise prohibit it.
A game (like Vanguard intended to be) where fast-travel is non-existent and the game concepts are AGAINST fast-travel, could still open up Holiday Portals for fast-travel just for the Holidays.
Afterall... for Thanksgiving, Christmas, Valentines Day...how many major (fun) holidays can there be? Certainly not 365. Not even close.
And it's almost a Christmas present to allow for fast-travel, like a bonus.
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
Is there some reason why you can't explore now? I remember in EQ my first day in I was exploring all over gfay, found my way into butcherblock and eventually came to Dagnor's cauldron, and immediately was killed. It was interesting, a bit scary.
Yesterday I was playing WoW, my druid is only 50. I was exploring plaguelands. Before it was just a quick stopover as I booted it to SM. Yesterday I started to explore, it was a bit scary and of course I died.
The point was you can explore just as much in new games as old games for exactly the same purpose, exploration. The only thing limiting you is.... you.
Venge Sunsoar
edit: However once I've explored it, than I have no interest in doing it again. That zone will now be just a place to level or pass through on my way to somewhere else. Hence bring on the fast travel for places I've allready been to.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
I read the OP post and nothing more and I will simply say this even if it was mentioned already. You better pay 20 bucks and get the Everquest 1 Starter Pack like yesterday. You want to explore, be my guest. Exploration hasnt gone anywhere if you know where to look, EQ1 is where to look. Please go explore Lake of Ill Omen. The Sarnak Dungeon there. Go explore Luclin. Find a group and hit Karnor's Castle. Hell solo Kurn's Tower at 14. Go explore one of the many Planes. I used to get lost in Neriak.
Exploration is king in EQ as the world is Massive. The EQ starter pack gets you 16 or 17 total EQ expansions and a month to try the game. I recently came back and am really enjoying the Beastlord Class again(one of my alltime favorites) and the game is actually 10x easier to get back into then I thought.
Is there some reason why you can't explore now? I remember in EQ my first day in I was exploring all over gfay, found my way into butcherblock and eventually came to Dagnor's cauldron, and immediately was killed. It was interesting, a bit scary.
Yesterday I was playing WoW, my druid is only 50. I was exploring plaguelands. Before it was just a quick stopover as I booted it to SM. Yesterday I started to explore, it was a bit scary and of course I died.
The point was you can explore just as much in new games as old games for exactly the same purpose, exploration. The only thing limiting you is.... you.
Venge Sunsoar
edit: However once I've explored it, than I have no interest in doing it again. That zone will now be just a place to level or pass through on my way to somewhere else. Hence bring on the fast travel for places I've allready been to.
Well, that’s sort of true.
There are several issues with the whole fast travel/not fast travel argument.
On the surface it’s pretty easy to say “why can’t some people avail themselves of fast travel and some people just hoof it.
It makes sense and would seem very logical. But it doesn’t exactly work for a variety of reasons.
Part of the whole “world” idea is that the inhabitants of the world are all abiding by the same inherent laws of the world. It’s not just about running and staring about your character nor is it about staring at the back of a horse.
It’s about traveling the world, perhaps enjoying the scenery and discovering things with other players or having encounters with or against other players.
If the world is such where fast travel is rare then it’s possible (more so in older games) to be chased by mobs and have players come to your rescue. Be traveling toward a destination only to see an infamous clan attacking one of the more liked clans and then deciding to attack the infamous clan.
Or to know that your enemy is planning a raid and knowing the possible routes they will have to use and using that knowledge to plan an attack.
Or just being on the road and seeing people using the roads because not using the roads can be a bit dangerous. In Lineage 2 some players used to hold bridges and charge tolls to players until a group discovered this and went out to eliminate the offender.
Another Lineage 2 thing is that I was out once and discovered that someone had dropped their breast plate. I took it and soon enough I saw someone shouting that they had dropped their breastplate. It was the exact one they had dropped by the exact place they claimed to have died so I returned it to them.
In addition, many modern games have a more deliberate and focused game world. The difference between exploring in Vanguard or Lineage 2 or even DAoC is a lot greater when one is looking at Aion or parts of AoC or even parts of LOTRO.
In the end it’s a different type of game play and it is also the difference between considering “being” in the world as a part of that game play over just quests and raids.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Is there some reason why you can't explore now? I remember in EQ my first day in I was exploring all over gfay, found my way into butcherblock and eventually came to Dagnor's cauldron, and immediately was killed. It was interesting, a bit scary.
Yesterday I was playing WoW, my druid is only 50. I was exploring plaguelands. Before it was just a quick stopover as I booted it to SM. Yesterday I started to explore, it was a bit scary and of course I died.
The point was you can explore just as much in new games as old games for exactly the same purpose, exploration. The only thing limiting you is.... you.
Venge Sunsoar
edit: However once I've explored it, than I have no interest in doing it again. That zone will now be just a place to level or pass through on my way to somewhere else. Hence bring on the fast travel for places I've allready been to.
In WoW, I never got a sense of exploration. Ever. Even during exploration...
But in Vanguard and EQ2? Definitely.
It's all in the game. Vanguard and EQ2 really made me feel I was exploring-- especially Vanguard. WoW? No. Not at all.
I have no idea why. I don't hate WoW or anything. It just wasn't that cool in exploring. It just didn't give the same feeling.
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
To make a world feel like a world where exploration is rewarding you need to consider these major points.
1. Completey remove the Quest-Driven approach of the current MMORPG design. The problem with games like WoW is that it hand holds you through quests and many of them. Quests alone are good but to make an MMORPG "Quest Driven" is bad for exploration. Once you remove that game style you then set the player free and focused on the world instead of 10/30 quests in his quest journal.
2. Remove all NPC or Object Teleportation methods (or even flight services - WoW like). Some people say "you don't use it if you don't have to, let those who wants to rapidly travel use these" the answer is "No." Apparently you don't understand the whole point. Once you give the "option" of fast travel then you instantly destroy the fact that the world is "big". If many people are able to isntantly travel from point A to point B in 1 second then that alone makes these two points only 1 second apart. You must make traveling meaningful, you don't take a longer route just because you like to. That doesn't make any sense. But if the route is long then the distance is long. If it takes you 1 second to reach point B from Point A then the distance between these two points is 1 second. Hence, small world.
3. Make the game Content Driven not Quest Driven. Instead of wasting human-resources on people to designs thousands of quests focus on designing real world content. Like Dungeons, NPCs, Named Monsters with history and Lore. Lots of places with lore in them. A Creepy Mansion you can explore, might be hostile or friend or both. Ruins with secrets. A Castle Owned by a Tyrant, increase your faction there or attack them? If you design your game that way then exploration will be meaningful.
4. Give the option for fast Teleportation to Players. Like give certain classes the ability to teleport people in different ways. For instance a mage can summon players to him, a Wizard can teleport people to pre-defined points, a Shaman can return a hero to his/her bind point, A Druid can teleport the whole group to pre-defined palces. And so forth. This will create community and gives an option for people to teleport.
5. Give the ability for people to buy Mounts even at level 1. Just make the basic one cheap, then they exponentionally increase in price the faster the speed they offer.
6. Speed increase spells would also become another "community" skill where people can seek other to decrease their travel times.
7. Give players the option to travel offline. When you go offline set a route for your character to take and by the time you log back in tomorrow he should be in that spot (Say an offline character travels 5miles per hour).
so ur saying that u dont agree with fast traveling even if u have to make that 20min travel each day over and over just to get to that instance/quest/zone?.. cant see how there is any exploring involved in taking the same route over and over again.
just my 2 cent
I would prefer that, yes. It doesn't make sense in a lot of games to have this big of a world, which you don't see.
While doing the Wow Pelgrim holliday season and achievements, I couldn't disagree more.
I would go crazy travelling between Stormwind, Ironforge, Darnassus, Exodar without a heartstone AND a self crafted portal (Ir) AND the Tournament tabard AND the portals in Dalaran. and this for 4 days in a row to craft the turkey gun ... (which brakes after each shot on 8 different targets)...
Imagine the downtime without ANY aids (My guess it would be around 40 hours of running - sickening).
Count in the dinner you'll have to try to eat in the enemy capitols of Ogrimmar, Undercity, Stone Mountains and that ugly Blood Elf city and....(the real fun challenge on a pvp server btw).
I simply wouldn't play it IF that would all be done without fast travelling.
You'd go nuts if doing this on foot and ship.
Your problem is you want to add Tobasco Sauce on a Cheese Cake. Doesn't work.
You want to cut fast traveling in a game DESIGNED to have them. WoW designed that shotgun with fast traveling is in mind.
Now, forget WoW completely and imagine a world without Quests. Without the need to go to Quest Hubs (cities to take or turn in quests). Every part of this world while unique on its own it will not oblige you to travel for 30 mintues of real world time just to tackle a simple game mechanic (like crafting a turkey gun). Yes, some places might have things you seek which makes you want to travel to them but you will not have the need to travel to several spots over and over and over in a 2 hour session.
I'm not even talking about Sand Box games. You can have a Content Driven (not quest driven) MMORPG and implement this. It just need the developer to understand the whole picture and need the skeptical also to understand the whole picture. It works.
so ur saying that u dont agree with fast traveling even if u have to make that 20min travel each day over and over just to get to that instance/quest/zone?.. cant see how there is any exploring involved in taking the same route over and over again.
just my 2 cent
I would prefer that, yes. It doesn't make sense in a lot of games to have this big of a world, which you don't see.
While doing the Wow Pelgrim holliday season and achievements, I couldn't disagree more.
I would go crazy travelling between Stormwind, Ironforge, Darnassus, Exodar without a heartstone AND a self crafted portal (Ir) AND the Tournament tabard AND the portals in Dalaran. and this for 4 days in a row to craft the turkey gun ... (which brakes after each shot on 8 different targets)...
Imagine the downtime without ANY aids (My guess it would be around 40 hours of running - sickening).
Count in the dinner you'll have to try to eat in the enemy capitols of Ogrimmar, Undercity, Stone Mountains and that ugly Blood Elf city and....(the real fun challenge on a pvp server btw).
I simply wouldn't play it IF that would all be done without fast travelling.
You'd go nuts if doing this on foot and ship.
Your problem is you want to add Tobasco Sauce on a Cheese Cake. Doesn't work.
You want to cut fast traveling in a game DESIGNED to have them. WoW designed that shotgun with fast traveling is in mind.
Now, forget WoW completely and imagine a world without Quests. Without the need to go to Quest Hubs (cities to take or turn in quests). Every part of this world while unique on its own it will not oblige you to travel for 30 mintues of real world time just to tackle a simple game mechanic (like crafting a turkey gun). Yes, some places might have things you seek which makes you want to travel to them but you will not have the need to travel to several spots over and over and over in a 2 hour session.
I'm not even talking about Sand Box games. You can have a Content Driven (not quest driven) MMORPG and implement this. It just need the developer to understand the whole picture and need the skeptical also to understand the whole picture. It works.
You forget that in the example above ... you STILL have to walk, ride, fly over 15-20 minutes to arrive at the enemy zone+capitol WITH fast travel aids. You are not ported to 5 meters from your objective... either.
But you have to ask yourself: where starts the real fun: on a PvP server it is the last 5 -10 minutes ride into enemy territory and try to avoid the enemy while seeking out the objective (example above).
So fast travel is used here ... to AVOID 1 to 2 hour long travel times to arrive at the 5-10 minute long fun. Or else it would be simply bad game design.
You can say: but I want 1 hour of danger: no problem you can find that too IN that last travelling zone, but at least give the options to people who disagree.
Because in the end .... these ARE video games: there is only so much time you want to spend pushing on a button to run/walk towards an objective.
To quest or not to quest is not even the question: one of those other challeging things is not even a quest: fish a rare fish in the enemy's capitol. It's no quest, but it is driven by an achievement mechanic: ensuring things HAPPEN or they wouldn't happen as frequently at all.
That's why the old designs died. Video games don't support a 4 hour long waiting time to see IF anything would happen (which in BIG spread out worlds will of course never happen).
Concentrate the actions. it's not a question of quest design: the designer has to put in rules to MAKE it happen at all. Therefore all options (even fast travel) must complement gameplay in some cases.
2. Remove all NPC or Object Teleportation methods (or even flight services - WoW like). Some people say "you don't use it if you don't have to, let those who wants to rapidly travel use these" the answer is "No." Apparently you don't understand the whole point. Once you give the "option" of fast travel then you instantly destroy the fact that the world is "big". If many people are able to isntantly travel from point A to point B in 1 second then that alone makes these two points only 1 second apart. You must make traveling meaningful, you don't take a longer route just because you like to. That doesn't make any sense. But if the route is long then the distance is long. If it takes you 1 second to reach point B from Point A then the distance between these two points is 1 second. Hence, small world.
That is a BS argument. Exploration is not about the travel but about taking a closer look at a place and finding details that you would otherwise miss. If you are exploring that 1 second trip will take you hours. If you have to be forced into 'exploring' by long travel times then you are not really exploring but merely killing time till you get to your destination. An explorer will take a longer route because he/she likes to.
There is a simple solution to this that has been used in single player games for years. Make it so you can't fast travel to anywhere you haven't been yet. This way you get the exploration at first and the fast travel to cut down the bordom of making the same journey over and over for future travel to that location. Single player games have been using this system for years. It's time MMOs did the same.
Edit: Actually the only MMO that I can think of that used a similar system is WoW with the griffins. You had to find a griffin to be able to use it in the future. More MMOs should adopt this system. Fast travel should never be free either.
I agree, all the latest games now click and your there, sure it's great for the casual gamer. I remember older mmo's like AO how massive it was it could take half a day of walking to get somewhere. However it was an adventure, worried if your gonna find your corpse if you die, dangers of being so far away any towns or people!
I remember looking on the map, picking a secluded area and I loaded up on gear and headed out. I found a mountain with a giant fort full of mobs with a few mini bosses. I had a blast hanging out there by myself loading up on decent gear.
After 3 days of being out there I was shocked to see someone in the distance as they came up to the camp, I almost felt bushwacked excited to see someone after all this time and we had a great roleplaying experience.
Part of the problem is the design of games that make force you to visit hubs often.
- Need to visit your trainer.
- Need to turn in quest.
- Need to visit bank. So you are adventuring and so much stuff drops these days, especially craft stuff.
- Need to visit crafting station.
- Need to visit advanced crafting station.
- Need to visit a merchant.
- Etc.
Their solution to this is fast travel to specific points.
Now, you can either waste people's time as above, or you can lesson the restrictions so people can use their time to explore. Remove the fast travel...that will increase there walkin' time. However, let them craft anywhere, call a merchant, train remotely, sell remotely, so they are spending more time walk around playing than visiting towns.
This takes thought to implement, especially when designing events. They would rather just plop down fast travel and not worry about it.
I do agree fast travel between cities is needed, if they are far apart.
Good thoughts. I think it best speaks to the issue. It's about what % of time a developer thinks a character should spend traveling. If a player spends 70% of their time traveling, they're gonna get bored and quit. So you need to either shorten their travel time, or eliminate their need to travel in certain circumstances.
And as Loke put it, I don't think Fast Travel is really the culprit, or at least the major part of the problem. Essentially, Fast Travel is there solely for the purpose of keeping people from having to traverse the exact same patch of road over and over and over. I also never see it granted to a player that hasn't made the trip once already, on foot.
Getting rid of Fast Travel would rarely, if ever, encourage exploration. For the same reason you tend to take the same route back and forth to work. Matter of fact, if I could "fast travel" to work and back, maybe I'd find more time in my day to go off the beaten path in my other travels.
All that said, I love exploration. I tend to agree with the idea that, you'll forget about all the times you went down the same path, did the same things, but you'll always remember those times you took a different path. Maybe it should be called the Columbus law?
But then, I'm pretty happy with the size of, say, LotRO, though many explorers are not. It's big enough to where it seems like I find new places with each alt I play. And it seems like every area has a great deal of care in its construction, whereas a bigger game like SWG seemed mostly random with POI's sprawled out here and there. My biggest complaint with LotRO would be the limited access in and out of a zone.
Personally, I prefer smaller areas packed with beauty, to bigger areas that just seem kinda churned out for the sake of being big, with occasional interesting bits.
Have you ever heard that argument? "Travelling in MMOs is too much of a hassle, we need to make it faster, easier, more streamlined."
I... Never agreed with that. Sure, a speed boost, that comes with a mount is nice, and all, but when you can literally travel to anywhere in the world in the matter of minutes, dues to easily set-up portals... This is where I drew the line. But I had no arguments back then. Until yesterday. Let me tell you a little story.
Me and my wife won movie tickets recently. Not a bad movie, by the way, but that's not my point. The theater we went to was kind of on the outskirts of Moscow, one the big circular highway, around the city. It was late and we weren't sure if subways would still work, by the time we got to them, so we decided to travel home on foot. We managed to get lost, wandered along the highway on a sleet-covered road, jumping through cracks, singing songs and just chatting away. We managed to get back to the city and eventually found our way home. For two hours we just wandered around, trying to find our way, not a care in the world, having the time of our lives. And that's when it hit me.
This is what I miss in MMOs so much. The ability to get explore, to wander, to get lost. The ability to travel together with someone with just a goal of "getting somewhere"m evading stronger mobs and ambushing the weaker ones. The ability... To have an adventure, really. You can't call an utterly predictable situation an adventure, now can you?
Darkfall have huge world to explore with no limitations on where to go no invisible barriers only problem maybe for most is your never safe others players can kill you and take all your gear and loot, other wise if you can take that Darkfall is perfect for exploring.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009..... In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
But you have to ask yourself: where starts the real fun: on a PvP server it is the last 5 -10 minutes ride into enemy territory and try to avoid the enemy while seeking out the objective (example above).
So fast travel is used here ... to AVOID 1 to 2 hour long travel times to arrive at the 5-10 minute long fun. Or else it would be simply bad game design.
You can say: but I want 1 hour of danger: no problem you can find that too IN that last travelling zone, but at least give the options to people who disagree.
My experience with Lineage 2 is that part of the real danger and even fun is that travel to the battle area.
Have you ever heard that your enemy is doing a raid so you travel to their raid area only to be attacked enroute?
Or you turn a bend only to run into a group of your enemy that also didn't expect you and you get a fight right then and there?
As long as you or the enemy can freely travel to each other's territory, something fun could happen.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Comments
Randomizing zones isn't required though, as the playerbase is likely to be smaller than WoW or popular IP's at release.
But using these modular variables, I am able to better craft different zones. It takes time and thought, but each zone is going to have positives and negatives, as well as a difficulty in living there.
My goal is to have so many Modular Variables, that along with Seasonal Change, the game world never feels the same. People are always traveling from one end of the continent to the next.
Since all items decay in some way, it is required to travel across the world back and forth to get the best. Don't want to travel? Buy from a player merchant at a higher price.
I want to have at least most of the world already mapped out and planned before release. This includes resource allocation, dungeons, factions, and geography. For example, "The best arrows come from the Wood Elf King's Forest, but in Merlin's Forest you can harvest regular arrows much faster than anywhere else, so they're cheaper. Arrows are almost non-existent in the NorthWest of the world, so they are very expensive there, and usually only regular arrows are affordable."
Traveling IS a big deal...but you don't HAVE to travel everywhere. You play in one local area a whole bunch, and then after many hours of playtime switch to a different area. Traveling is not as common. But if you're a merchant, traveling is *the* thing to do. Don't want to travel but you do want to sell? Pay gold to have your items delievered to another city via a Trade Contract with other players, or at a very high price NPC's.
Fast-Travel is available, but it is extremely expensive for transporting goods, and still requires adventure for transporting characters. (In essence, fast-travel for characters is a 10 minute long mini-quest). No more boatrides.
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
I see nothing wrong with GM's opening up portals during the Holidays that allow for fast-travel in a game that would otherwise prohibit it.
A game (like Vanguard intended to be) where fast-travel is non-existent and the game concepts are AGAINST fast-travel, could still open up Holiday Portals for fast-travel just for the Holidays.
Afterall... for Thanksgiving, Christmas, Valentines Day...how many major (fun) holidays can there be? Certainly not 365. Not even close.
And it's almost a Christmas present to allow for fast-travel, like a bonus.
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
Is there some reason why you can't explore now? I remember in EQ my first day in I was exploring all over gfay, found my way into butcherblock and eventually came to Dagnor's cauldron, and immediately was killed. It was interesting, a bit scary.
Yesterday I was playing WoW, my druid is only 50. I was exploring plaguelands. Before it was just a quick stopover as I booted it to SM. Yesterday I started to explore, it was a bit scary and of course I died.
The point was you can explore just as much in new games as old games for exactly the same purpose, exploration. The only thing limiting you is.... you.
Venge Sunsoar
edit: However once I've explored it, than I have no interest in doing it again. That zone will now be just a place to level or pass through on my way to somewhere else. Hence bring on the fast travel for places I've allready been to.
I read the OP post and nothing more and I will simply say this even if it was mentioned already. You better pay 20 bucks and get the Everquest 1 Starter Pack like yesterday. You want to explore, be my guest. Exploration hasnt gone anywhere if you know where to look, EQ1 is where to look. Please go explore Lake of Ill Omen. The Sarnak Dungeon there. Go explore Luclin. Find a group and hit Karnor's Castle. Hell solo Kurn's Tower at 14. Go explore one of the many Planes. I used to get lost in Neriak.
Exploration is king in EQ as the world is Massive. The EQ starter pack gets you 16 or 17 total EQ expansions and a month to try the game. I recently came back and am really enjoying the Beastlord Class again(one of my alltime favorites) and the game is actually 10x easier to get back into then I thought.
Well, that’s sort of true.
There are several issues with the whole fast travel/not fast travel argument.
On the surface it’s pretty easy to say “why can’t some people avail themselves of fast travel and some people just hoof it.
It makes sense and would seem very logical. But it doesn’t exactly work for a variety of reasons.
Part of the whole “world” idea is that the inhabitants of the world are all abiding by the same inherent laws of the world. It’s not just about running and staring about your character nor is it about staring at the back of a horse.
It’s about traveling the world, perhaps enjoying the scenery and discovering things with other players or having encounters with or against other players.
If the world is such where fast travel is rare then it’s possible (more so in older games) to be chased by mobs and have players come to your rescue. Be traveling toward a destination only to see an infamous clan attacking one of the more liked clans and then deciding to attack the infamous clan.
Or to know that your enemy is planning a raid and knowing the possible routes they will have to use and using that knowledge to plan an attack.
Or just being on the road and seeing people using the roads because not using the roads can be a bit dangerous. In Lineage 2 some players used to hold bridges and charge tolls to players until a group discovered this and went out to eliminate the offender.
Another Lineage 2 thing is that I was out once and discovered that someone had dropped their breast plate. I took it and soon enough I saw someone shouting that they had dropped their breastplate. It was the exact one they had dropped by the exact place they claimed to have died so I returned it to them.
In addition, many modern games have a more deliberate and focused game world. The difference between exploring in Vanguard or Lineage 2 or even DAoC is a lot greater when one is looking at Aion or parts of AoC or even parts of LOTRO.
In the end it’s a different type of game play and it is also the difference between considering “being” in the world as a part of that game play over just quests and raids.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
In WoW, I never got a sense of exploration. Ever. Even during exploration...
But in Vanguard and EQ2? Definitely.
It's all in the game. Vanguard and EQ2 really made me feel I was exploring-- especially Vanguard. WoW? No. Not at all.
I have no idea why. I don't hate WoW or anything. It just wasn't that cool in exploring. It just didn't give the same feeling.
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
To make a world feel like a world where exploration is rewarding you need to consider these major points.
1. Completey remove the Quest-Driven approach of the current MMORPG design. The problem with games like WoW is that it hand holds you through quests and many of them. Quests alone are good but to make an MMORPG "Quest Driven" is bad for exploration. Once you remove that game style you then set the player free and focused on the world instead of 10/30 quests in his quest journal.
2. Remove all NPC or Object Teleportation methods (or even flight services - WoW like). Some people say "you don't use it if you don't have to, let those who wants to rapidly travel use these" the answer is "No." Apparently you don't understand the whole point. Once you give the "option" of fast travel then you instantly destroy the fact that the world is "big". If many people are able to isntantly travel from point A to point B in 1 second then that alone makes these two points only 1 second apart. You must make traveling meaningful, you don't take a longer route just because you like to. That doesn't make any sense. But if the route is long then the distance is long. If it takes you 1 second to reach point B from Point A then the distance between these two points is 1 second. Hence, small world.
3. Make the game Content Driven not Quest Driven. Instead of wasting human-resources on people to designs thousands of quests focus on designing real world content. Like Dungeons, NPCs, Named Monsters with history and Lore. Lots of places with lore in them. A Creepy Mansion you can explore, might be hostile or friend or both. Ruins with secrets. A Castle Owned by a Tyrant, increase your faction there or attack them? If you design your game that way then exploration will be meaningful.
4. Give the option for fast Teleportation to Players. Like give certain classes the ability to teleport people in different ways. For instance a mage can summon players to him, a Wizard can teleport people to pre-defined points, a Shaman can return a hero to his/her bind point, A Druid can teleport the whole group to pre-defined palces. And so forth. This will create community and gives an option for people to teleport.
5. Give the ability for people to buy Mounts even at level 1. Just make the basic one cheap, then they exponentionally increase in price the faster the speed they offer.
6. Speed increase spells would also become another "community" skill where people can seek other to decrease their travel times.
7. Give players the option to travel offline. When you go offline set a route for your character to take and by the time you log back in tomorrow he should be in that spot (Say an offline character travels 5miles per hour).
Your problem is you want to add Tobasco Sauce on a Cheese Cake. Doesn't work.
You want to cut fast traveling in a game DESIGNED to have them. WoW designed that shotgun with fast traveling is in mind.
Now, forget WoW completely and imagine a world without Quests. Without the need to go to Quest Hubs (cities to take or turn in quests). Every part of this world while unique on its own it will not oblige you to travel for 30 mintues of real world time just to tackle a simple game mechanic (like crafting a turkey gun). Yes, some places might have things you seek which makes you want to travel to them but you will not have the need to travel to several spots over and over and over in a 2 hour session.
I'm not even talking about Sand Box games. You can have a Content Driven (not quest driven) MMORPG and implement this. It just need the developer to understand the whole picture and need the skeptical also to understand the whole picture. It works.
You forget that in the example above ... you STILL have to walk, ride, fly over 15-20 minutes to arrive at the enemy zone+capitol WITH fast travel aids. You are not ported to 5 meters from your objective... either.
But you have to ask yourself: where starts the real fun: on a PvP server it is the last 5 -10 minutes ride into enemy territory and try to avoid the enemy while seeking out the objective (example above).
So fast travel is used here ... to AVOID 1 to 2 hour long travel times to arrive at the 5-10 minute long fun. Or else it would be simply bad game design.
You can say: but I want 1 hour of danger: no problem you can find that too IN that last travelling zone, but at least give the options to people who disagree.
Because in the end .... these ARE video games: there is only so much time you want to spend pushing on a button to run/walk towards an objective.
To quest or not to quest is not even the question: one of those other challeging things is not even a quest: fish a rare fish in the enemy's capitol. It's no quest, but it is driven by an achievement mechanic: ensuring things HAPPEN or they wouldn't happen as frequently at all.
That's why the old designs died. Video games don't support a 4 hour long waiting time to see IF anything would happen (which in BIG spread out worlds will of course never happen).
Concentrate the actions. it's not a question of quest design: the designer has to put in rules to MAKE it happen at all. Therefore all options (even fast travel) must complement gameplay in some cases.
That is a BS argument. Exploration is not about the travel but about taking a closer look at a place and finding details that you would otherwise miss. If you are exploring that 1 second trip will take you hours. If you have to be forced into 'exploring' by long travel times then you are not really exploring but merely killing time till you get to your destination. An explorer will take a longer route because he/she likes to.
There is a simple solution to this that has been used in single player games for years. Make it so you can't fast travel to anywhere you haven't been yet. This way you get the exploration at first and the fast travel to cut down the bordom of making the same journey over and over for future travel to that location. Single player games have been using this system for years. It's time MMOs did the same.
Edit: Actually the only MMO that I can think of that used a similar system is WoW with the griffins. You had to find a griffin to be able to use it in the future. More MMOs should adopt this system. Fast travel should never be free either.
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I agree, all the latest games now click and your there, sure it's great for the casual gamer. I remember older mmo's like AO how massive it was it could take half a day of walking to get somewhere. However it was an adventure, worried if your gonna find your corpse if you die, dangers of being so far away any towns or people!
I remember looking on the map, picking a secluded area and I loaded up on gear and headed out. I found a mountain with a giant fort full of mobs with a few mini bosses. I had a blast hanging out there by myself loading up on decent gear.
After 3 days of being out there I was shocked to see someone in the distance as they came up to the camp, I almost felt bushwacked excited to see someone after all this time and we had a great roleplaying experience.
You just don't see that anymore which is a shame!
Good thoughts. I think it best speaks to the issue. It's about what % of time a developer thinks a character should spend traveling. If a player spends 70% of their time traveling, they're gonna get bored and quit. So you need to either shorten their travel time, or eliminate their need to travel in certain circumstances.
And as Loke put it, I don't think Fast Travel is really the culprit, or at least the major part of the problem. Essentially, Fast Travel is there solely for the purpose of keeping people from having to traverse the exact same patch of road over and over and over. I also never see it granted to a player that hasn't made the trip once already, on foot.
Getting rid of Fast Travel would rarely, if ever, encourage exploration. For the same reason you tend to take the same route back and forth to work. Matter of fact, if I could "fast travel" to work and back, maybe I'd find more time in my day to go off the beaten path in my other travels.
All that said, I love exploration. I tend to agree with the idea that, you'll forget about all the times you went down the same path, did the same things, but you'll always remember those times you took a different path. Maybe it should be called the Columbus law?
But then, I'm pretty happy with the size of, say, LotRO, though many explorers are not. It's big enough to where it seems like I find new places with each alt I play. And it seems like every area has a great deal of care in its construction, whereas a bigger game like SWG seemed mostly random with POI's sprawled out here and there. My biggest complaint with LotRO would be the limited access in and out of a zone.
Personally, I prefer smaller areas packed with beauty, to bigger areas that just seem kinda churned out for the sake of being big, with occasional interesting bits.
Darkfall have huge world to explore with no limitations on where to go no invisible barriers only problem maybe for most is your never safe others players can kill you and take all your gear and loot, other wise if you can take that Darkfall is perfect for exploring.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
My experience with Lineage 2 is that part of the real danger and even fun is that travel to the battle area.
Have you ever heard that your enemy is doing a raid so you travel to their raid area only to be attacked enroute?
Or you turn a bend only to run into a group of your enemy that also didn't expect you and you get a fight right then and there?
As long as you or the enemy can freely travel to each other's territory, something fun could happen.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo