Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Kill # of these Quests-- why are they the norm?
Emergence
Member Posts: 888
When I think about Lore and Roleplaying, making sense of virtual worlds...I end up scratching my head over this one. Kill 5 wolves, slay 15 orcs, collect 15 orc scalps (by slaying 15 orcs...)
Why would anyone need this done? It is just non-sense.
Granted in the SEGA Shadowrun game, there was one Run (quest) where you killed Ghouls in the sewers for $$$. Depending on how much you negotiated out of the Johnson (quest giver) you got that much for killing Ghouls. It made sense though. They are an infestation that no one wants around. They are infested with a form of mutated HIV (actually some other viral strand, but you get the picture) which makes them braindead flesh-eaters. The fun part though wasn't that you killed (x) amount and returned. No. It actually made sense. "Kill as many as you can." We don't want 5 to disappear. We want them ALL to disappear. Afterall, if I'm going to pay you--- I should have the entire job done! Extermination is more like it, not "quell the population."
In WoW and other MMO's, it is always "quell the population" of wolves or boars. Quell? If they are bothering you...why not exterminate them entirely? Oh... because then your 10 alts can't complete the same quest. Oops. Talk about Lazy developers. My idea is to have these quests, but more similar to Shadowrun. For example... Lord Humphries is an NPC who has a quest to quell the population of wolves. This NPC's quest begins with 100 wolves payout. The zone he is in will spawn 100 wolves maximum before making them disappear. This spawn cap regenerates based on the # of wolves, back up to 100. If it ever reaches 0, the quest disappears and is no more. The quest is not "Kill [x] wolves for me" but instead "For every [x] wolves you slay for me, I will pay you [y] copper." If you want, kill all 100. If you just need 30 copper, just kill a few. Rewards pay out based on pre-quest negotiation (skill) and hallmarks of #'s you kill (killing 3 pays very little because they will regenerate, but killing 30 pays out much better. Killing all 100 or all remaining pays you a bonus.) Obviously though, these quests wouldn't be very common. Why should they be? They rarely make any sense.
I believe that developers were just beginning in the field so they made quests simple, and every developer after that one was just lazy.
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
Comments
In answer to the Question as to why they are the norm, its because there is a Mail Delivery Union of NPC's that limit the total amount of Fed-Ex type quests of Deliver X to person Y at location Z. If the Union did not strongarm the questgivers this way, they would soon find themselves replaced by Scab PC delivery men.
"Kill # of these Quests-- why are they the norm?"
Because they are relatively cheap to produce content that is easily repeatable in many situations, leaving developers more time to spend on developing actual combat mechanics and class structure.
"TO MICHAEL!"
Once again FFXI got it right. There were quests in the game but only for the main storyline and to open up different things, like Subjobs, Chocobos, and advanced jobs. There was no BS go kill 50 crabs quests. You gathered a party to go train your skills, and if crabs were the best exp wise, then you would kill crabs.
Killing about 15 things is the scientific sweet spot of anti-grind. It's not too short. It's not too long (grindy). It's the length of time players want to spend doing one particular thing.
MMORPG designers have had many years to test out what players like, and players generally prefer this number.
So they're not "lazy". They're scientifically providing what has proven to work.
"Lazy" would be passing judgement without having done the legwork oneself.
And well..if it's the simplicity you're attacking then you really really need to read more design literature and/or test out some actual designs (and not with friends, with normal people.) You'll quickly realize that overbloated overcomplicated designs rapidly nosedive.
So "kill x badguys" or "Kill this boss" is as complicated as the quests should be. If complication is implemented it needs to be in the presentation of those quests (ie completely on the backend where players don't witness the complexity.) If some mobs come out to ambush you halfway through or if killing the boss means going through an interesting dungeon, then you have a deeper experience without excessive complication.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
In a decent MMO, Kill X Y's... it's a bit innaccurate to consider them the "norm". LotRO, for example, uses alot of them, but they're put together in a hub with a main quest line, so that if you're choosing to hunt throughout your time completing these main quests, you'll also fulfill those quests as well.
So yes, they're around, but they're by no means the main point of you being there.
I think the biggest problem in how people perceive these quests is the fact that they're lumped in with the actual good ones. In LotRO, it's still that same gold ring that you see above their heads, despite it really only being a secondary objective to the main quest line.
I think we end up killing X of Y a lot in many MMORPGs is because there isn't a whole heck of a lot else to do. And part of the fun of an MMO comes from using your shiny skills and kicking ass. It seems like quests just give you a reason to kill the things geared towards your level. Personally, I feel it gets old sometimes.
I'd like to see more depth in quests. Not just "kill wolves because be they are terrorizing people and need to be stopped." I've come across a few different ones here and there. Find this item, collect these plants, go rescue that child from monsters, guide that one chick to the city, etc... More of these, less of the kill X of Y quests would be nice. Of course, to craft an item for an NPC you need mats. Which may involve killing a monster for their hide, or going out and killing monsters to clear a path to an iron vein. Or, if you're rescuing an NPC in the wild they might be surrounded by hostile creatures you need to dispatch. Essentially, you are still killing things but not because the quest dictates you must. Orrrr, you found this really neat cave hidden amongst rocks and trees. There are monsters around it and inside, but there may also be treasure and materials for the taking. No NPC lead you here via a quest, it's pure desire to explore and hack your way through the foes.
I would find it funnier if you weren't so serious about this, actually believing any of it to be true.
Why people defend lazy game developers is beyond me. We should all just play it safe and copy WoW. It's the only scientifically proven evidence we have-- and we all know that science is infallible proof that can never be disputed.
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
Exactly.
Game developers have gotten very lazy, or their desires are snuffed out by corporate pounding into them, "Produce better graphics!"
Unfortunately, they DON'T produce better graphics... so I have no idea where the pressure ACTUALLY goes.
I guess to outer space (Richard Garriott) or maybe to mental breakdown (Brad McQuaid).
Oh boy...
Sounds great, and I completely agree.
Those quests are just as simple as "Kill 15 rats!" but are so much more realistic and fulfilling because of the variety.
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
Because people LIKE them. There are simple, and get you to kill DIFFERENT type of mobs.
In fact, i remember readimg somewhere saying that Blizz has done some research, and people tends to like the simpler quests better than the more complicated involving ones.
This research doesn't mean that there can be better, simple quests.
Simple is a very relative term, especially when it's more of a matter of making it simple FOR A PERSON, not actually making it simple.
I would like to see this research to know what is considered "complicated, involving ones".
Also, just because a good amount of WoW gamers like simple quests, doesn't mean everyone does-- nor does it mean that gamers who dislike WoW's concepts should be ignored.
I appreciate Darkfall solely for the fact it is something different that isn't a WoW copy. That alone deserves respect.
I miss the days when gaming wasn't for average-joe-moron, and instead was for what were considered basement nerds. Everyone plays MMO's now because of WoW, which is why there are so many WoW clones. Unfortunately, the millions of gamers who played video games when they weren't popular are ignored, as if they aren't a good source of money. (This is incorrect, as they ARE.)
I can't wait to see more independent developers releasing their MMO's, or making progress on them. Unfortunately, it seems that most of them literally just want to copy another game (UO, WoW, or EQ) and don't really care to do anything that even remotely sounds interesting. Most independently developed game concepts seem to be the exact same thing as all the others-- only with different races, lore, and slightly different classes.
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
Question: What exactly does it mean when something is put in lamen's terms?
Answers:
it's "Layman's Term(s)". usage: "in layman's term"; it's figurative for "simple words" -- words that an ordinary person would understand, especially if that person is talking with a professional such as an engineer, doctor, pilot, scientist and the likes.
"TO MICHAEL!"
That's similar in design to some of the quests in EverQuest. For example, in the East Commonlands, which was one step over from the newbie area, there were camps of Orcs. If you killed the Orcs some of them had belts. If you kept the belts and took them back into Freeport, the nearby city, and handed them to an NPC he would award you gold, experience and faction increases. The more Orcs you killed, the more Belts you got, the more experience rewards, gold and faction you gained.
Why are they the norm? They are the norm because they are cheap to make and you can make a ton of them without the use of a writer. Their basically something in every mmo because they are cheap and easy to mass produce. Many mmos today lack a story completely but that doesnt matter to the general public obviously (thats right wow im calling you out haha). People today just care about epic loot even if theres no challenge in recieving epic loot. Epic loot should be something not everyone will experience but in todays mmos it is something every has ive spent a bit of time on wow and i have a quite a few epics but i would not consider myself epic worthey if that makes since. I think only the top tear raids should off such loot. i also think the questing system in mmos need a serious over haul because i think that were going back instead of forward and at current rates your quest text will look something like this.
Steve says
kill 5 wolves for me
reward:Epics
I recently read that chinese gamers like their games and american gamers like their games hard i would have to disagree with that because if you look at our most popular games they are getting to be easier and easier. I hate to pick on world of warcraft because it is a game i used to really enjoy but i do think that the past expansion pack shows that we american gamers are looking for an easier and easier games even if it means a game with little or no plot. I think the reason questing has gotten so dull as of late is because we are searching for easier quests and kill 5 quest are as easy as they come.
sorry i ranted for some so long but thats for reading:)
If your going to ban the trolls please for our sake ban the Fan Boys too.
I think the main problem with the OPs ideal is that not every quest can be some big involved epic questline and the method he stated would only benefit the first few gamers. What happens to new players what quests can they do if the first players have alreay purged every kill quest. The kill quest are simple and give you a reason to kill the mobs instead of just mindlessly grinding away.
because combat is usually the main focus in any game, mmorpg or otherwise. Although they can be repetative and sometimes boring, you usually advance your toon so you get to use new abilties etc so its not as boring.
Would you honestly want to constantly go deliver some unimportant item for an npc just for xp? They're only good if you're going to an area you've not been before. They're not amazing and their not bad either. Even in single player rpg's that are generally far superior to MMO's you get the same kind of quests anyway.
It is astounding how you made that post all about WoW when he didn't mention it, not once. Your response is very confusing. Give me some of what you're smoking.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
It is just because it is the simplest quest possible to write. But it is also because with a specific number you get less people camping the same area as you get if you get quest rewards for killing as many as the can.
And while there is some logic to your idea these kind of quests are the worst possible and most boring, I don't need someone to tell me to grind, I am capable of doing that myself.
Just scrap the entire rat killing quest type instead. Let quests be long and epic things, like saving a princess, throwing down a ring into a volcano, take the throne of Aqualonia or similar epic things.
Finding the holy grail is the classic quest. Picking 10 flowers outside the village walls is not. There are just far too many crappy grind and fedex quests and while your idea possibly make grind quests somewhat more fun it is just a slight improvement.
Just can all stuff that doesn't need a hero. To have some bounty NPCs that pay for orc totems, troll horns or whatever is fine but you should not get extra XP for just regular grinding.
You're right! These quests are the norm because its easy for developers to make. Luckily, WoW: Cataclysm realized this mistake and so they went back and remove most of these quests and replaced them with more fun and immersive quests. Don't believe me? Check the link below and see for yourself.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/297209/Lore-and-Quests-Cataclysms-most-improved-area.html
So because Blizzard makes Wow easier that means players want easier games?
Isn't it just possible that either it is because Blizzard thinks players want easier games they make Wow easier? Or just the regular "all MMOs gets easier with time" thing.
Almost every MMO in history have become easier in time, the only exceptions are games that are focused on PvP. Look on EQ today, it is not as hard as it used to be. To just draw the conclusion that it is because the players want easy games is to make things easy for you.
I don't think all players want easy games, I don't even think most players want easy games but I do believe any game will eventually get easier after a few expansions. The main culprit is more the constant raising of max level, new skills and specializations together with the fact all new items are better than the old ones at same level.
Look on your favorite game (with a few expansions out). A level 20 vanilla item have no chance to a lvl 20 item from the last expansion and just that in itself make the game a lot easier. Add the newer speccs you can have and the fact that leveling is made to be faster since the game have 20+ new levels and you see what is happening here.
MMOs usually start out relatively hard, and devs are just too lazy to rebalance them. Some loud mouthed players complaining that the game is too hard also plays in of course but that does not mean all players want easy street.
BECAUSE IF YOU DON'T KILL 10 GOBLINS THE KINGDOM SHALL FALL !!!111
duh.....
Do you know any better? Give me example of a quest you would like to see instead.
Now give me hundred more. Take special care to explain in detail the implementation of each quest. Good. You are halfway through newbie zones.
Me? I give you kill 15 of 1..100. Gotcha.
Also, have you ever realized writing your rant that killing limited number of population is the traditional way of hunting or herding ... or do you in today ecology stuffed world really believe that exterminating whole populations makes problems go away?
I believe it because efficiency and simplicity apply to all design (not just games, and certainly not just WOW.) There's a certain acceptable pacing to things.
It's a little ironic that my post ran a little long, and you stopped reading, thus proving how universal this concept is.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
The problem here is very simple. You people think that questing is the only way to level up. Having 15 quests to do every level 1-80 or whatever the cap is gets old because they are repetitive. Bring back Exp camps a la EQ, EQoA and FFXI. Sit in a camp and pull some mobs, Not 20 at a time, 1 at a time, and make the fight DIFFICULT. Remember FFXI? You pull one mob at a time and it requires EVERYONE in the party to work together or you all die, or the mob takes 10 minutes to kill. Bring back TEAMWORK a la SKILLCHAINS
Wow, my first mispelling in 3 years. Props! :P
To be honest, I do not know what to say to what is an awkward anti-social move to single out someone's mispelling of a rarely used word.
I guess I should just /wrist because I have no explanation for my grammatical failure.
How many points did I lose?!?! *worried he might lose a level because of XP loss*
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
Ah yes... I remember the belts!
Wow... I loved those quests!!
I will surely include them in my game.
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.