Fear and Penalty in MMO

gamubi · November 2010

I've always wondered why games like EQ were so successful and thinking back it had partly to do with penalties. We all remember the earlier eq there were some pretty harsh penalties for dieing! Having to safely recover your corpse in the worst areas, or losing an actual level from experience debt really sucked. Though I think it added a lot of fear to the players, you played smarter.

There's never been another mmo I can actually say that put real fear in me like the first time I seen a sand giant close to the newbie area in eq. The sound effects of the giant walking around and the giant ominous figure in the background. Even in the newbie areas they threw in the griffins you could be hunting lvl 3 spiders and BOOM out of nowhere your dead....all you heard was the screech and flapping wings. They instilled that fear right out the door.

Now when I look at games like AOC which was a beautiful looking game mind you it just had nothing like that. I mean I would jump of cliffs and kill myself just to save time from running...there was no penalty what so ever so that fear was never there. I guess the developers look towards WOW as a model rather than eq as it was more popular. I haven't played wow so I can't say what kind of penalties were involved.

I just hope some day they put back the fear in MMO's, maybe i'm just old fashion and enjoy the sense of accomplishment to capping a toon with a game that is actually hard. People just want everything handed to them, I don't really understand it myself.

VultureSkull · November 2010

Not experienced fear in an Fantasy mmo, but have in Eve, where you can get insruance that more or less covers any lose, besides the actual premium, but thre is the all the hassle of getting(buying) your ship back and re-equipping it

When you get into an Eve pvp encounter your heart races and the adrenalin pumps, but i guess with time this fades as you become a seasoned pilot.

Robsolf · November 2010

Originally posted by gamubi
I've always wondered why games like EQ were so successful and thinking back it had partly to do with penalties. We all remember the earlier eq there were some pretty harsh penalties for dieing! Having to safely recover your corpse in the worst areas, or losing an actual level from experience debt really sucked. Though I think it added a lot of fear to the players, you played smarter.

EQ was successful because there weren't alot of options at the time. If what you said was true, people would be playing EQ instead of WoW. They certainly wouldn't have dropped it like a used sex toy to go play WoW, which is pretty much what happened.

That said, I hope they make that game, so that you can go play it instead of lobbying to put harsh penalties in games where it's not appropriate.

Torik · November 2010

Originally posted by gamubi
I've always wondered why games like EQ were so successful and thinking back it had partly to do with penalties. We all remember the earlier eq there were some pretty harsh penalties for dieing! Having to safely recover your corpse in the worst areas, or losing an actual level from experience debt really sucked. Though I think it added a lot of fear to the players, you played smarter.

There's never been another mmo I can actually say that put real fear in me like the first time I seen a sand giant close to the newbie area in eq. The sound effects of the giant walking around and the giant ominous figure in the background. Even in the newbie areas they threw in the griffins you could be hunting lvl 3 spiders and BOOM out of nowhere your dead....all you heard was the screech and flapping wings. They instilled that fear right out the door.

Now when I look at games like AOC which was a beautiful looking game mind you it just had nothing like that. I mean I would jump of cliffs and kill myself just to save time from running...there was no penalty what so ever so that fear was never there. I guess the developers look towards WOW as a model rather than eq as it was more popular. I haven't played wow so I can't say what kind of penalties were involved.

I just hope some day they put back the fear in MMO's, maybe i'm just old fashion and enjoy the sense of accomplishment to capping a toon with a game that is actually hard. People just want everything handed to them, I don't really understand it myself.

Frankly I never really feared death in a video game. I might have felt frustration, disappointment or annoyance but fear just seems such a weird emotion to feel over something that cannot harm you. Fearing death in a MMORG seems as ridiculous as fearing getting blown up in Minesweeper.

As far as WoW goes, dying in the game means that you have to start the encounter over again which tends to invoke frustration, disapointment and/or annoyance in me (same emotions that death in EVE invoked).

BTW WoW's zone setup pretty much elminates travel-by-death as a viable tactic.

Tyrrhon · November 2010

It is not about fear of death, sure if you have guaranteed connections all the way to your customers, go ahead.

It is about what comes after death. And none came with good answer to that yet. Say in EvE, I lose a ship, it hurts, it can hurt a ton, but you expect it to happen and the hurt ceases. Then you have to do some boring grind to get where you were, it is not really challenging or anything, it is just pressing some buttons and waiting, meanwhile getting *nowhere*. Or worse, you have to spend a day just getting the shopping done. Nothing more than just riding hundreds of miles on bus to buy a bun you accidentally dropped. Awesome.

You know what, just smash your fist hard against brick wall, it is simple, it accentuates the virtual death, and it beats any of the death penalties MMO industry came with.

Edit: Actually I know one good way to implement death penalty, i saw it first in Necromunda or so. It is quite awesomely simple and I wish you good luck figuring it out to the detail.

Kyleran · November 2010

While I do enjoy MMO's that make you think before you leap, consider the consequences of your actions, and encourage you to actively avoid dying (at all costs), I don't think its this element that made EQ a success.

WOW is a great indicator that a majority of gamers prefer a more casual experience, death without penalty if you will and who's to say they're wrong, its all a matter of preference really.

Robsolf · November 2010

Originally posted by ReallyNow10

Originally posted by Robsolf

Originally posted by gamubi

I've always wondered why games like EQ were so successful and thinking back it had partly to do with penalties. We all remember the earlier eq there were some pretty harsh penalties for dieing! Having to safely recover your corpse in the worst areas, or losing an actual level from experience debt really sucked. Though I think it added a lot of fear to the players, you played smarter.

EQ was successful because there weren't alot of options at the time.

While there were "not a lot of options at the time", EQ had more going for it than that. I've played games long before EQ and after, and never had a gaming experience quite like EQ.

I feel the same way, for entirely different reasons. It was a unique experience in that it was so dull, tedious, and grindy, I went back to MUD's for 3 more years. And the thought of having to repeat dull, tedious grinding due to absurd XP penalties? Not interested.

If what you said was true, people would be playing EQ instead of WoW.

Very bad logic.

Could it be that EQ had hideous graphics even in its day and really has not updated most of them for close to a decade? Could it be that EQ has clunky mechanics compared to WOW's smoothness? There are a lot of reasons that EQ is not doing as well and most of them point to EQ being an old game, but none of them point to EQ's challenge and excitement being its downfall. EQ had better design elements than WOW. No WOW dungeon ever felt as forboding and exciting as ANY EQ dungeon.

The logic is sound. Lackluster gfx has little effect on the success of games. You've heard of that "Wii" thing, right? And that ithad been TROUNCING the champion in gfx for consoles, the PS3 for the past 4 years?

You currently DO have games with stiff death penalties, with better graphics, and they are tanking. The only game with a heavy penalty that's prospering is Eve, and you can take measures to buffer most of your loss in that game. Few people are interested in harsh, artificial death penalties, and the more harsh the death penalty, the less a player will be willing to take a risk. Thus, the devs see no traffic in challenging areas, and start nerfing the crap out of the mobs. This wrecks challenge, which is what most of us seek.

They certainly wouldn't have dropped it like a used sex toy to go play WoW, which is pretty much what happened.

That said, I hope they make that game, so that you can go play it instead of lobbying to put harsh penalties in games where it's not appropriate.

Harsh penalties give you the adrenaline rush in PVE that is similar to the one in PVP gaming. There is no arguing that going into an EQ dungeon took more cahones than mindless waltzing into a WOW "instance".

Unless you have a dopamine deficiency, you do not require more incentive to stay alive than the incentive most current games offer you. And all anyone needs for an adrenaline rush is a challenge. If PVE 1v1 isn't challenging enough, go 2 v 1, or 3 v 1, or find higher level mobs.

Risk is a disincentive for seeking a challenge. Greater challenge for greater reward, however, is not. But DP's do not create a challenge.

While I'd agree that DP's should exist, most current systems are plenty adequate.

Nobody, save the very first players, marched into an EQ dungeon without knowing exactly what they were getting into. Difference being, you bought a guide, or looked it up on another website. OR, you took one step inside, (knowing the devs wouldn't be so stupid as to put a mob right next to the entrance that would instantly attack you), conned the first mob, and decided whether it would be a good idea to stay. Now, a dev shows you what level an instance is. That's called good development sense.

Cahones? Hardly. Someone with real cahones would enter zones with red-con mobs and vow to delete their character if they die. Or perhaps seek an actual REAL LIFE challenge.

eric_w66 · November 2010

Originally posted by gamubi
I've always wondered why games like EQ were so successful and thinking back it had partly to do with penalties. We all remember the earlier eq there were some pretty harsh penalties for dieing! Having to safely recover your corpse in the worst areas, or losing an actual level from experience debt really sucked. Though I think it added a lot of fear to the players, you played smarter.

There's never been another mmo I can actually say that put real fear in me like the first time I seen a sand giant close to the newbie area in eq. The sound effects of the giant walking around and the giant ominous figure in the background. Even in the newbie areas they threw in the griffins you could be hunting lvl 3 spiders and BOOM out of nowhere your dead....all you heard was the screech and flapping wings. They instilled that fear right out the door.

Now when I look at games like AOC which was a beautiful looking game mind you it just had nothing like that. I mean I would jump of cliffs and kill myself just to save time from running...there was no penalty what so ever so that fear was never there. I guess the developers look towards WOW as a model rather than eq as it was more popular. I haven't played wow so I can't say what kind of penalties were involved.

I just hope some day they put back the fear in MMO's, maybe i'm just old fashion and enjoy the sense of accomplishment to capping a toon with a game that is actually hard. People just want everything handed to them, I don't really understand it myself.

EQ1 wasn't successful because of wicked death penalties. It was successful because it had the market to itself (AC1 wasn't close to being what EQ1 was, and UO was 2D and dying at that point).

All the harsh death penalty did in EQ1 was make people play *safer*. People never took risks, as everyone well knew in EQ1 that Risk != Reward. So players took no risks. 6 player groups farming low blues for hours on end. Not yellows or reds, only blues. It actually discouraged exploration and the taking of risks. Combat was by rote, often automated because of how "predictable" it was.

There's a very good reason no other game has had such a harsh death penalty since then (That was successful).

elos_rekat · November 2010

All the harsh death penalty did in EQ1 was make people play *safer*. People never took risks, as everyone well knew in EQ1 that Risk != Reward. So players took no risks. 6 player groups farming low blues for hours on end. Not yellows or reds, only blues. It actually discouraged exploration and the taking of risks. Combat was by rote, often automated because of how "predictable" it was.

Gotta hit the BS button on the above. When grouped we did target at least yellow. How much beyond yellow was dependent upon how the group was working.

eric_w66 · November 2010

Originally posted by elos_rekat

All the harsh death penalty did in EQ1 was make people play *safer*. People never took risks, as everyone well knew in EQ1 that Risk != Reward. So players took no risks. 6 player groups farming low blues for hours on end. Not yellows or reds, only blues. It actually discouraged exploration and the taking of risks. Combat was by rote, often automated because of how "predictable" it was.

Gotta hit the BS button on the above. When grouped we did target at least yellow. How much beyond yellow was dependent upon how the group was working.

When did you farm yellows? After every cleric had a click-stick rez? That's not a harsh death penalty. I'm talking about EQ1 classic 1-50, no kunark, no epics. No cheals, no summon corpse. People did NOT fight yellows back then in dungeons (kiting lone sand/hill giants perhaps).

seabeast · November 2010

Using the OP logic, may as well go all the way. If your toon dies in game...it dies. Start over and go again. Can you imagine the impact on games? No more kiddles bragin that they did a million runs and got the OP gear, no more mass ganks in sandbox games and the community may even be more...mature. Just a thought.

Quirhid · November 2010

Originally posted by Robsolf

Originally posted by ReallyNow10

Unless you have a dopamine deficiency, you do not require more incentive to stay alive than the incentive most current games offer you. And all anyone needs for an adrenaline rush is a challenge. If PVE 1v1 isn't challenging enough, go 2 v 1, or 3 v 1, or find higher level mobs.

Risk is a disincentive for seeking a challenge. Greater challenge for greater reward, however, is not. But DP's do not create a challenge.

Spot on, spot on!

Harsh death penalty may make a mediocre game enjoyable if you have tendency towards gambling.

Malhavok · November 2010

Challenge is meaningless if you aren't risking anything. So what. You lose, respawn and do it over again. That's really the only thing I enjoyed doing in WoW. Finding some group of people doing quests and cheap shot and gouging them so the mobs could kill them. Sure, it was a "challenge". My chances of wiping the groups I was attacking, even with the help of mobs, was astronomically slim. The only time I lived was when they were stupid beyond believe.

Torik · November 2010

Originally posted by Malhavok
Challenge is meaningless if you aren't risking anything. So what. You lose, respawn and do it over again. That's really the only thing I enjoyed doing in WoW. Finding some group of people doing quests and cheap shot and gouging them so the mobs could kill them. Sure, it was a "challenge". My chances of wiping the groups I was attacking, even with the help of mobs, was astronomically slim. The only time I lived was when they were stupid beyond believe.

I really pity people who cannot challenge themselves without gambling. I guess they are just not able to feel the pure exhilaration of setting a very difficult goal for yourself and then going beyond what you think you are capable to achieve it.

Emergence · November 2010

Originally posted by gamubi
I've always wondered why games like EQ were so successful and thinking back it had partly to do with penalties. We all remember the earlier eq there were some pretty harsh penalties for dieing! Having to safely recover your corpse in the worst areas, or losing an actual level from experience debt really sucked. Though I think it added a lot of fear to the players, you played smarter.

There's never been another mmo I can actually say that put real fear in me like the first time I seen a sand giant close to the newbie area in eq. The sound effects of the giant walking around and the giant ominous figure in the background. Even in the newbie areas they threw in the griffins you could be hunting lvl 3 spiders and BOOM out of nowhere your dead....all you heard was the screech and flapping wings. They instilled that fear right out the door.

Now when I look at games like AOC which was a beautiful looking game mind you it just had nothing like that. I mean I would jump of cliffs and kill myself just to save time from running...there was no penalty what so ever so that fear was never there. I guess the developers look towards WOW as a model rather than eq as it was more popular. I haven't played wow so I can't say what kind of penalties were involved.

I just hope some day they put back the fear in MMO's, maybe i'm just old fashion and enjoy the sense of accomplishment to capping a toon with a game that is actually hard. People just want everything handed to them, I don't really understand it myself.

This is what I am hoping to accomplish by adding a soft-permadeath and fast character development into an MMORPG.

And failing this (if it's not fun, it can't be in the game) then some form of Stat-Loss.

Also, item decay. That isn't really a penalty though, since items breaking isn't really seen as a loss as much as it is seen as "just how it is."

P.S. There are no levels. Skill-based game like DF or UO.

Emergence · November 2010

Originally posted by Torik

Originally posted by Malhavok

Challenge is meaningless if you aren't risking anything. So what. You lose, respawn and do it over again. That's really the only thing I enjoyed doing in WoW. Finding some group of people doing quests and cheap shot and gouging them so the mobs could kill them. Sure, it was a "challenge". My chances of wiping the groups I was attacking, even with the help of mobs, was astronomically slim. The only time I lived was when they were stupid beyond believe.

I really pity people who cannot challenge themselves without gambling. I guess they are just not able to feel the pure exhilaration of setting a very difficult goal for yourself and then going beyond what you think you are capable to achieve it.

Save your pity. It is human nature and reality to feel more challenge when gambling with loss.

It is narrow-minded to think others are incapable of setting challenges and overcoming them, being filled with satisfaction.

Stop to think that maybe the risk of loss and gambling gives people MORE of a thrill and a BIGGER sense of satisfaction than accomplishing goals which require 0% risk.

It is an entirely DIFFERENT form of satisfaction for me as an individual. Setting my own goals is less thrilling, but more rewarding long-term. More self-rewarding, but less brag-worthy. It makes me feel like I am creating fun- but that is entirely different than being GIVEN fun.

Comparing personal goals and self-challenge and risk vs reward, gambling gameplay-- this is like comparing PvP to PvE, or Apples to Energy Drinks.

Emergence · November 2010

Originally posted by seabeast
Using the OP logic, may as well go all the way. If your toon dies in game...it dies. Start over and go again. Can you imagine the impact on games? No more kiddles bragin that they did a million runs and got the OP gear, no more mass ganks in sandbox games and the community may even be more...mature. Just a thought.

WRONG! All the way means "If you die in the game... you die in real life!"

LoL :P

skeaser · November 2010

Originally posted by Robsolf

Originally posted by ReallyNow10

Originally posted by Robsolf

Originally posted by gamubi

I've always wondered why games like EQ were so successful and thinking back it had partly to do with penalties. We all remember the earlier eq there were some pretty harsh penalties for dieing! Having to safely recover your corpse in the worst areas, or losing an actual level from experience debt really sucked. Though I think it added a lot of fear to the players, you played smarter.

EQ was successful because there weren't alot of options at the time.

While there were "not a lot of options at the time", EQ had more going for it than that. I've played games long before EQ and after, and never had a gaming experience quite like EQ.

I feel the same way, for entirely different reasons. It was a unique experience in that it was so dull, tedious, and grindy, I went back to MUD's for 3 more years. And the thought of having to repeat dull, tedious grinding due to absurd XP penalties? Not interested.

If what you said was true, people would be playing EQ instead of WoW.

Very bad logic.

Could it be that EQ had hideous graphics even in its day and really has not updated most of them for close to a decade? Could it be that EQ has clunky mechanics compared to WOW's smoothness? There are a lot of reasons that EQ is not doing as well and most of them point to EQ being an old game, but none of them point to EQ's challenge and excitement being its downfall. EQ had better design elements than WOW. No WOW dungeon ever felt as forboding and exciting as ANY EQ dungeon.

The logic is sound. Lackluster gfx has little effect on the success of games. You've heard of that "Wii" thing, right? And that ithad been TROUNCING the champion in gfx for consoles, the PS3 for the past 4 years?

You currently DO have games with stiff death penalties, with better graphics, and they are tanking. The only game with a heavy penalty that's prospering is Eve, and you can take measures to buffer most of your loss in that game. Few people are interested in harsh, artificial death penalties, and the more harsh the death penalty, the less a player will be willing to take a risk. Thus, the devs see no traffic in challenging areas, and start nerfing the crap out of the mobs. This wrecks challenge, which is what most of us seek.

They certainly wouldn't have dropped it like a used sex toy to go play WoW, which is pretty much what happened.

That said, I hope they make that game, so that you can go play it instead of lobbying to put harsh penalties in games where it's not appropriate.

Harsh penalties give you the adrenaline rush in PVE that is similar to the one in PVP gaming. There is no arguing that going into an EQ dungeon took more cahones than mindless waltzing into a WOW "instance".

Unless you have a dopamine deficiency, you do not require more incentive to stay alive than the incentive most current games offer you. And all anyone needs for an adrenaline rush is a challenge. If PVE 1v1 isn't challenging enough, go 2 v 1, or 3 v 1, or find higher level mobs.

Risk is a disincentive for seeking a challenge. Greater challenge for greater reward, however, is not. But DP's do not create a challenge.

While I'd agree that DP's should exist, most current systems are plenty adequate.

Nobody, save the very first players, marched into an EQ dungeon without knowing exactly what they were getting into. Difference being, you bought a guide, or looked it up on another website. OR, you took one step inside, (knowing the devs wouldn't be so stupid as to put a mob right next to the entrance that would instantly attack you), conned the first mob, and decided whether it would be a good idea to stay. Now, a dev shows you what level an instance is. That's called good development sense.

Cahones? Hardly. Someone with real cahones would enter zones with red-con mobs and vow to delete their character if they die. Or perhaps seek an actual REAL LIFE challenge.

I do think age plays a large part in the decline of EQ. The UI and graphics are painful to say the least. As far as the content EQ has changed drastically over the years and is no longer the epic masterpiece it once was. Also, the original EQ holds appeal to many of us but not the masses. WoW has modernized the MMO for the masses, we few "geek/oldschool/nerd" whatever label you want gamers that long for an older feeling MMO will likely be left in the dark as we do not represent a large enough consumer population to merit developing for.

Emergence · November 2010

Originally posted by skeaser

Originally posted by Robsolf

Originally posted by ReallyNow10

Originally posted by Robsolf

Originally posted by gamubi

I've always wondered why games like EQ were so successful and thinking back it had partly to do with penalties. We all remember the earlier eq there were some pretty harsh penalties for dieing! Having to safely recover your corpse in the worst areas, or losing an actual level from experience debt really sucked. Though I think it added a lot of fear to the players, you played smarter.

EQ was successful because there weren't alot of options at the time.

While there were "not a lot of options at the time", EQ had more going for it than that. I've played games long before EQ and after, and never had a gaming experience quite like EQ.

I feel the same way, for entirely different reasons. It was a unique experience in that it was so dull, tedious, and grindy, I went back to MUD's for 3 more years. And the thought of having to repeat dull, tedious grinding due to absurd XP penalties? Not interested.

If what you said was true, people would be playing EQ instead of WoW.

Very bad logic.

Could it be that EQ had hideous graphics even in its day and really has not updated most of them for close to a decade? Could it be that EQ has clunky mechanics compared to WOW's smoothness? There are a lot of reasons that EQ is not doing as well and most of them point to EQ being an old game, but none of them point to EQ's challenge and excitement being its downfall. EQ had better design elements than WOW. No WOW dungeon ever felt as forboding and exciting as ANY EQ dungeon.

The logic is sound. Lackluster gfx has little effect on the success of games. You've heard of that "Wii" thing, right? And that ithad been TROUNCING the champion in gfx for consoles, the PS3 for the past 4 years?

You currently DO have games with stiff death penalties, with better graphics, and they are tanking. The only game with a heavy penalty that's prospering is Eve, and you can take measures to buffer most of your loss in that game. Few people are interested in harsh, artificial death penalties, and the more harsh the death penalty, the less a player will be willing to take a risk. Thus, the devs see no traffic in challenging areas, and start nerfing the crap out of the mobs. This wrecks challenge, which is what most of us seek.

They certainly wouldn't have dropped it like a used sex toy to go play WoW, which is pretty much what happened.

That said, I hope they make that game, so that you can go play it instead of lobbying to put harsh penalties in games where it's not appropriate.

Harsh penalties give you the adrenaline rush in PVE that is similar to the one in PVP gaming. There is no arguing that going into an EQ dungeon took more cahones than mindless waltzing into a WOW "instance".

Unless you have a dopamine deficiency, you do not require more incentive to stay alive than the incentive most current games offer you. And all anyone needs for an adrenaline rush is a challenge. If PVE 1v1 isn't challenging enough, go 2 v 1, or 3 v 1, or find higher level mobs.

Risk is a disincentive for seeking a challenge. Greater challenge for greater reward, however, is not. But DP's do not create a challenge.

While I'd agree that DP's should exist, most current systems are plenty adequate.

Nobody, save the very first players, marched into an EQ dungeon without knowing exactly what they were getting into. Difference being, you bought a guide, or looked it up on another website. OR, you took one step inside, (knowing the devs wouldn't be so stupid as to put a mob right next to the entrance that would instantly attack you), conned the first mob, and decided whether it would be a good idea to stay. Now, a dev shows you what level an instance is. That's called good development sense.

Cahones? Hardly. Someone with real cahones would enter zones with red-con mobs and vow to delete their character if they die. Or perhaps seek an actual REAL LIFE challenge.

I do think age plays a large part in the decline of EQ. The UI and graphics are painful to say the least. As far as the content EQ has changed drastically over the years and is no longer the epic masterpiece it once was. Also, the original EQ holds appeal to many of us but not the masses. WoW has modernized the MMO for the masses, we few "geek/oldschool/nerd" whatever label you want gamers that long for an older feeling MMO will likely be left in the dark as we do not represent a large enough consumer population to merit developing for.

I don't understand this at all. Perhaps because I am an indie dev with practical dreams and accomplishments.

You say "we do not represent a large enough consumer population to merit developing for".

I disagree! Maybe for billion dollar industry...yea... they expect to see billions in returns. But for me? If i even had 1000 people buy my game ONE time (not even counting subscriptions) then even AFTER server costs and investment repayment (my own money, lol) I would be drooling with success.

1000 people buying a game for $20... that's $20,000. I can live off of that easily.

1000 people subscriber to a game for $10 a month, for a full year, that's $10,000.

If I even made $10,000 for a video game I created- I would be laughing my way to success. Why? Because this is my dream. I would create it for free. In fact, quite the opposite. I'm paying to see my dream come true. I'm losing money. To get some or more of that money back? Wow, that would be amazing...

And believe me... there are far more than 1000 of us. If I made millions because of only 10,000 subscribers-- I would quit all future career plans and invest entirely in making video games for so "few" people.

And while Blizzard laughs at me because I make 1 penny compared to their billions-- I would think "Wow...that's so many people..." at even 1000 players.

I'm willing to work 24/7 full time on an MMORPG for the rest of my life for only $40,000 a year. I'd deserve more, and my equal peers (lead developers in MMO gaming) would make significantly more-- but oh well.

Malhavok · November 2010

Originally posted by Torik

Originally posted by Malhavok

Challenge is meaningless if you aren't risking anything. So what. You lose, respawn and do it over again. That's really the only thing I enjoyed doing in WoW. Finding some group of people doing quests and cheap shot and gouging them so the mobs could kill them. Sure, it was a "challenge". My chances of wiping the groups I was attacking, even with the help of mobs, was astronomically slim. The only time I lived was when they were stupid beyond believe.

I really pity people who cannot challenge themselves without gambling. I guess they are just not able to feel the pure exhilaration of setting a very difficult goal for yourself and then going beyond what you think you are capable to achieve it.

It's no different than poker or the stock market. It really isn't any more challenging to play with risk (real money), but if fundamentally alters your behavior. Poker for play money isn't interesting at all. Paper trading is barely more interesting. You have a tendency to get sloppy and halfass things, take risks you wouln't normally take because there is no consequence.

I've played sports all my life, I know a lot about pushing your limits. But guess what. In the real world there are consequences. Every time I went to throw a curve ball instead of a fast ball I knew there was a possibiity I'd throw it out of the strike zone or it would hang and get smashed. That's the difference between practice and competition. One is slightly fun, the other is why you do the former. Zero consequence sterile practice environments are just that.

Axehilt · November 2010

EQ wasn't successful because of penalty. It was held back by it.

Robsolf · November 2010

Originally posted by ReallyNow10

Originally posted by Axehilt

EQ wasn't successful because of penalty. It was held back by it.

Kind of depends. While the penalty did sting, the threat of it made players more alert, more in tune with their surroundings, more relieved when they got to a safe destination, more like they achieved something when they traversed a dangerous zone, and a host of other immersion factors.

I think any such penalty is tweak-able, and I do think the extremes are a turn off to gamers, be it extreme penalty or such a non-penalty as to make dying into a non-event.

But then, it shouldn't be necessary. If you're not already wary in a dangerous area, then there's something wrong with you.

The perfect example in LotRO are crafting missions, where you need a particular item in a particular dangerous area in order to craft an item so you can continue your crafting vocation. In my Scholars case, I needed something from an area of Angmar which is light to moderately dangerous to someone level 40-45.

I decided to try it at level 25 as a Rune Keeper, aka a non-sneaky glass healer/cannon. And after much sweating, I did it. It involved running through mountains full of Elite wyrms when, often, aggro was unavoidable. I survived it via some decent healing pots and some well strategized healing buffs. And in the end, I had to navigate wandering Angmarim. That bit in "The Mask" where the dog is trying to steal the jailors keys? That was ME.

THAT was an adrenaline rush.

Now, if it had been the case that if I were to die, I'd lose half my level in XP, I'd have never tried. At least not til' I was, say, level 45-50, when it wouldn't have been much of a challenge at all. And in not being challenged, it would have been a dull experience. I'd never try anything particularly challenging, matter of fact. I'd be yawning my way through bluish quests, inching my way to max.

And in not feeling challenged, I'd leave. And seeing this, developers would either react wrongly; by making mobs easier to kill, which would make people like me even more bored out of their wits, or they'd decrease the DP so they might seek a higher challenge.

Modern developers chose rightly. They either created a significant but temporary DP(LotRO, WoW), or a huge penalty that could be avoided/mitigated(Eve). All others are failing miserably. DF and MO are seeing as many subs as they WILL EVER SEE, EVER, in no small part thanks to their DP's. Yes, there are other issues with those games, but if there's one feature that convinces people NOT to play the game right off the bat, it's FFA Full Loot. NOT SAYING THEY SHOULD CHANGE THAT, but I AM saying that I bet more people choose NOT to play of because of that than choose to. Now, if you like that feature, I suggest you support the games 100%, cuz if/when they fail, I'd bet you will NEVER SEE a significant developer include that feature ever again.

I'll reiterate again... RISK DISCOURAGES PEOPLE FROM SEEKING A CHALLENGE. Lower risk ENCOURAGES exploration and taking chances, where the TRUE adventure lies.

Take real life:

Would you be more likely to start your own business if, should it fail:

- You had to declare bankruptcy, and be broke for awhile.

or...

- your firstborn were set in front of a firing squad and shot to death?

Risk discourages seeking a challenge. In an MMO, it's really the only thing that DOES discourage people from seeking a challenge. And there's little, if ANY, reason to discourage people from seeking a challenge in an MMO.

Torik · November 2010

Originally posted by Malhavok

Originally posted by Torik

Originally posted by Malhavok

Challenge is meaningless if you aren't risking anything. So what. You lose, respawn and do it over again. That's really the only thing I enjoyed doing in WoW. Finding some group of people doing quests and cheap shot and gouging them so the mobs could kill them. Sure, it was a "challenge". My chances of wiping the groups I was attacking, even with the help of mobs, was astronomically slim. The only time I lived was when they were stupid beyond believe.

I really pity people who cannot challenge themselves without gambling. I guess they are just not able to feel the pure exhilaration of setting a very difficult goal for yourself and then going beyond what you think you are capable to achieve it.

It's no different than poker or the stock market. It really isn't any more challenging to play with risk (real money), but if fundamentally alters your behavior. Poker for play money isn't interesting at all. Paper trading is barely more interesting. You have a tendency to get sloppy and halfass things, take risks you wouln't normally take because there is no consequence.

I've played sports all my life, I know a lot about pushing your limits. But guess what. In the real world there are consequences. Every time I went to throw a curve ball instead of a fast ball I knew there was a possibiity I'd throw it out of the strike zone or it would hang and get smashed. That's the difference between practice and competition. One is slightly fun, the other is why you do the former. Zero consequence sterile practice environments are just that.

So you agree with me that higher death penalties discourage risk taking and make people less likely to do challenging stuff?

Loke666 · November 2010

Originally posted by Torik
So you agree with me that higher death penalties discourage risk taking and make people less likely to do challenging stuff?

It does if the reward isn't greater.

PvE is about risk Vs reward. Easy stuff should not be close to as rewarding as hard stuff. If you get all the cool stuff from the hard dungeons people will play them no matter the penalty, but if you get almost as good stuff from easy things only few people will take the chance.

Golial · November 2010

I can say for a fact Eve Online is one of those that is held back by penalties. In most cases in the game, having enemies camp you outside of a station doesn't make you want to try to engage, the number one tactic is to log off, to not play the game at all for an hour and hopefully bore them to death so they'll just go away. You can lose your ship, your fittings, and it can all amount to weeks or months worth of time spent gone in a matter of seconds. While yes, this makes good Eve players hyper-vigilant, it also makes traveling in low-sec or 0 sec high risk, with low reward.

You can always look toward the behemoth of WoW, which has a death system that includes a penalty, both time consuming and monetary, but isn't harsh enough people are going out of their way to avoid. On a PvP server back in Vanilla WoW, was I any less hyper-vigilant for enemies in Stranglethorn Vale than I was in 0.0 space in Eve Online? No. Did I get camped in WoW like I did in Eve Online? Yes. The fundamental difference is that in Eve Online, the tactic was to log off, and in WoW, the tactic was to try again.

Tyrrhon · November 2010

Golial, those are two approaches to PVP:

- one takes PvP as violent conflict

- one takes PvP as measure of strength

If you are sparing you want to fight to hone your skills, regardless of outcome. If it is real conflict, you want to end it, either by eliminating opposition or escaping. You don't fight much in war.

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Fear and Penalty in MMO

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Fear and Penalty in MMO

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Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV