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Too many skills... so should developers FORCE specializations?
Emergence
Member Posts: 888
This isn't to discuss whether there are too many skills or not. This is for those who agree there are, to discuss is developers should force players to stop filling their bars with useless skills. If you want to disagree with "there are too many skills" then please do so in the other thread.
This is appropriate for the PUB because it expands upon "Too many skills" for those who AGREE.
A popular argument is that there are too many skills, and I completely agree. No one needs more than 1 full bar of skills. When it gets to become 3 bars, I start to wonder why. I almost every game, regardless of how many abilities I actually have-- during PvP and (since it's easy..PvE) I just spam the same 2-4 abilities I have over and over. Even if that is not the most effective way mathematically, it is the best way in PvP because you are not slowing down to try and use abilities you have to click on. Clickable abilities = fail in PvP. If you are using your mouse, no wonder you're dying! But fingers can't extend very far to THAT many abilities, and CTRL is the only comfortable alternative IMO.
So should developers force players into a limited number of abilities? I can think of at least two ways they can do this.
1) Players are only allowed to prepare 5 abilities at a time. Remember Everquest1 when you had to memorize spells to learn them? Maybe like that.
2) Players can do anything they want... but will be gimped if they don't focus on a limited amount (lets say 5). However they advance (Levels, Skills, Character Points) they put or gain points only in skills they use, and they only gain enough to properly use a few.
3) Another way?
Do you think that by forcing players to limit their ability choice in some way or another, developers are increasing the power of Character Customization?
Do you think that by forcing players, they are allowed to add in tons of abilities to make players have a variety of choice in how to make their character?
Do you think Champions Online and City of Heroes does this already? What do you think of their system?
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
Comments
Difficult to say. I agree too many redundant abilities are pointless. When I see how many icons my EQ2 Paladin level 78 has... it blows my mind. And what are they? 8 different buffs doing all the same, dozens of different swing your sword attack, also essentially doing the same.
I prefer less powers, but those powers then should all be unique and cool and not fireball, fireorb, fireglobe and fireray.
I can however hardly imagine how to force specialization without forced grouping. I always loved team-work and it's why I began to play MMOs in the first place. I wanted to play a specialized role, something where I could develop a strength in, like being a good healer or CC or tank or what. Now with everyone being a bit of everything, people don't learn to play one role really good anymore and most people just suck at everything. I loved it when, like in a good baseball or football team you have specialists for everything and only the combined team effort of specialists you win.
But today we have jack of all trade chars who are all soloing all the time. Depressive.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
in my opinion 1 full bar from 1-0 of offensive skills, and a second bar either full or half depending on your class) for buffs and self buffs, that is more than enough for me, more than that is too much, and less than than is just plain boring to spam the same 5 skills with every mob...
not counting passive skills which you dont need to activate them...... those are fine with any amount
I like none of those options, honestly. Memorizing spells reminds me of PnP DnD, an aspect of being a caster so hated even DM's would often throw it out the window just to speed up an already slow game session just because of the nature of the game. I don't like point systems either, because it irks me when I can't get all the skills of my class; I feel like I'm unable to fully realize my class when he can't use all the abilities available to him. I DON'T mind this when used like WoW, where you get all your skills but you get points to specialize in a specific set of skills. That, I don't mind.
Honestly I prefer GW2's system; your skills are based on the weapon you're using. You get a few slots for skills of your choosing, one is saved for a healing skill and the other is saved for an elite, giving you room for two damage/support skills of your desire. The other slots are decided by the weapon and cannot be changed. I LOVE this system, it gives me the perfect balance of customization and specialization.
I also like class tree systems. Here, your skills are decided by the path you choose. As you level, you should get all the skills of your class, but none of the other. For instance, starting out as a cleric and getting a choice to evolve either as a class specializing in either attack spells, or healing. This was done in Ragnarok Online particularly well, as even if you maxed out your job before evolving (level 60, which allowed you to get most if not all of your skills) you still didn't end up with more skills than you needed and they were all pretty useful until the end, even the ones you got in your first class. There are of course games which use this class system and have the same problem with an overflow of skills (Rappelz, and to some extent Perfect World with their Tier system), but it's really up to the developer to make sure skills are created in a way that remain useful.
There is also Guild Wars 1's way, where there were (EDIT: over 1300) skills but only 8 could be brought with you at once. This worked for me, but a lot of people didn't like it. I admit there were times when having just 2 more slots really would have helped...
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
Whether to force people into specialization or not depends on the game.
However, the question or issue is wrongly put.
The amount of skills isn't important, important is if they have use. The problem with many skills, leaving their usability aside, is the UI.
Why you have 8 rows of skills when you only need 6 of them at a time?
The UI is currently very archaic design that did not evolve for many years and is left behind the rest of the game.
Have you seen a scrolling deck in The Chronicles of Spellborn? Awesome thing. You setup a deck of rows and then the deck is rotating row after row. That way you can setup different skill combos to achieve desired effect - heal, debuff, damage, etc.
The problem is UI, imo.
I don't agree. The only thing worse than too many skills, in my opinion, is too many skills that you NEED. How do you manage 50 skills that you need to use constantly? That would be nearly impossible without macros. Now add PvP, and now you need macros for every situation. How long before you have hundreds of macros just for those 50 skills? That just makes the problem worse. Yes, a better UI is helpful, it always is, but there's still far more skills than are vital, and they could easily be condensed. Take for instance, Aion. My Cleric had like 5 different AoE heals by 50 and more as he continued leveling. One healed everyone, one healed the target and everyone near him, use healed + heal over time, another healed + removed debuffs, etc etc...why do I need that many? Why not just condense it and give me one AOE heal, and one AOE condition removal skill. Boom. Done.
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
I'd actually love to see a combo type system.
Sort of like what was in AoC but a lot smoother and more natural. AoC basically had the combo options as regular skills which feels like it's just a last minute addition in hopes of adding something interesting.
I'm talking about a game that has no skillbar at all. Instead your 1-5 buttons are automatically linked to your 5 basic attacks and by combo-ing these in logical sequences you gain additional effects.
Combos shouldn't be a set list ( IE 1-2-4-3 is this and this special move, but 1-2-4-2 does nothing special. ) Instead each basic attack should determine its effects based on the 2 previous attacks.
Say as a warrior you use an overhead strike after 2 sideways strike then you might cause a short stun due to all the momentum build up on those sideways strikes. Using a quick stab after a shield bash might give you a defensive bonus as you're keeping all your limbs close and thus show no openings.
For mages the basic attacks could be your standard elemental strikes which you could combo for more complicated effects. An earth strike followed by a fire strike might create a volcanic AoE effect. A water and air effect combined might make a freezing wind effect that slows.
Thus you could hopefully create a system with few buttons while still retaining complicated effects but without forcing players to memorise 50 diffirent combos to get these effects. But instead logically creating them by combining these basic attacks in a way that makes sense.
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I agree with GDemami that a better UI or better skill management would be a marked improvement to many of the existing systems. The Spellborn scrolling skills are a great example of that.
@OP, it would be helpful if you indicated which MMOs you feel have too many skills and which you feel do not.
Your choice of wording worries me, though, as you approach it from the direction of forcing limitations as opposed to that of offering choices. Spell memorization in EQ1 and skill selection in Guild Wars are examples of offering choice, which in turn creates a more strategic playing field, especially in PVP. I'm all for design that allows players to make choices, but most players really don't care for that. The reason they don't care for it is that now a good portion of what determines victory is the choices they have made, and good design would allow a lower level/stat team who made good choices to defeat a higher level/stat team who made bad choices. As player skill (strategic thinking, preparation and prediction) starts to become as important as character stats and skills, more and more players will shy away from the game.
Guild Wars and EVE Online are two MMOs where the skill pools are large but only a select amount can be used in battle at any given time. Players in those games are not forced to specialize in anything, rather allowed to choose what they feel will be most effective for the adventure they are about to embark on.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
AoC actually had a great combo system EXCEPT for the part were you were stuck in the animation appon finishing the combo. just remove the stuck part and you got a great system.
Have you seen the skill deck system? Check it out here to get better understanding of what I mean:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkKgsYULOlE
As I already said, whether you need 50 skills or not is a matter of the game. More skills create a variety but whether that variety is utilized is a matter of each game.
So you can say there are 2 different issues:
1) Usefulness of the skills - a matter of specific game and the game mechanics
2) Usability of the skills - a matter of more general issue of UI design
More simplification and easy-mode gameplay?
No thanks.
Dude this is your third post about this, I gave you a good answer everquest 1 like hotbars, kind of works like guild wars except you can change them out faster by memorizing a 10 of them I think it was 10, anyways 10 at a time can switch anytime you felt like it. That is most likely the best answer you will find.
Obviously you haven't read any posts.
Take EQ2 for example. a class has like 8 different buffs, one maybe adds 100ac and 10stam, another might ad a couple STR, just a bunch of little buffs that you have to make sure are up. What is wrong with making them into 1 or 2 strong buffs? Its simplifying things but what is so complicated about buffing yourself 8 different times? It doesn't take any more or less brainpower to click a couple buffs instead of 20. It just takes out mindless button mashing.
Same with weapon attacks. WTF is the point of having 15 different sword strikes that you are constantly mashing each time its cooldown is up? Why not give the character a couple powerful attacks that actually have a purpose? Its not dumbing down the game, its making the game less of a button mash no time to think fest.
Ever play FFXI? Not lately, but a couple years ago. You lvld up your **1** character. You were able to level each job. People had to be good at their role, people worked as a team. Mages had lots of spells and melee had a few class DEFINING abilities that were all useful, not 20 different skills that all do pretty much the same exact thing.
Leveling. More skills means more toys while you level up your character.
Leveling? Whats wrong with getting more powerful versions of the same skill? WoW does it, FFXI does it. I think EQ2 gives you a completely new skill for the same buff though, which is dumb.
in WoW, Fireball 1 has the exact same look as Fireball 9
In FFXI Fire 1 has a completely different animation than Fire 2 or Fire 3 or 4.
Give the player better versions of the same skills as you level, which etter animations and graphics. I guarantee people will be a lot happier with that instead of getting a new buff or skill every 1 or 2 levels that ALL look the same.
I think huge amounts of skills tends to be a "quantity over quality" thing. Having half your screen smothered in buttons - and many having very, very similar effects - is really distracting and takes away from the visceral component of gameplay.
What would be more interesting is going for ideas like combos, skill-chaining and context-sensitivity, which haven't been greatly explored much in MMOs. It all boils down to creating more interplay/interdependence between abilities.
GW Assassins were a good first attempt (Lead Attack -> Off-Hand Attack -> Dual Attack), and I think Aion has something like this to a limited degree. WoW Rogue combo points were a decent foray in the right direction, and Cataclysm is taking further baby steps by introducing this to other classes (Holy Power for Paladins, Lunar/Solar system for Moonkin Druids, etc).
I like GW2's weapon-based skills. More context-sensitive abilities are great. I think FFXIV has something similar to this idea too, but given the massively huge disappointment most people seem to have, I probably won't be plunking down the cash to try it out for a long time.
Fighting games (I hear booing already) have honed this fairly well. One way we can take inspiration from them is just by having "super moves" be the result of a sequence of attacks rather than one simple button click.
What it is are MMORPG's attempting to have some semblance of twitch-based combat, requiring people to actually pay attention in order to not die. The reason why there are separate abilities is more mathematically complex than what you are describing. Timing, mana preservation, damage types, sequential effiency, etc. Granted, this varies from MMO to MMO. I could understand that some MMOs may have redundant abilities here and there, but I'm sure it's more of a balancing issue on the devs' part than simply saying it's a matter of having too many skills.
I agree with this. Haven't played FFXI much, but the idea of having (for example) a weak barely-more-than-a-spark fire spell at the start, which evolves into a very dangerous-looking flaming orb as you progress is quite compelling.
So you are in favour of a system more like what WoW now has?
More like FFXI than WoW.
I think the developers should incentivise specialisation. If someone really wants to be a jack-of-all-trades, then he should have the option, but specialisation should always be more effective. If nothing else, this also incentivises grouping, team play, reputation, and all the other things that are supposed to be the point of MMOs.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
Nothing, just different approach.
If I had to speak for myself, I personally dislike getting skill versions.
You dislike seeing your kills progress graphically as they get more powerful? You enjoy seeing the same animation throughought your characters life?
I much prefer getting 20 truly different skills than 20 skills that are 5 skills with 4 variants of each.
That still does not exclude the change of visual effect as the skill grows in strength.
First of all: Skills needs to be more flexible.
MMOs often splits down skills into small parts and forces us to fill loads of fastkeys that really makes the game less enjoyable.
Here is how I want a skill:
Larceny
This skill allow the thief to do thief skills. Every thief will choose one specialization which his rank is 5 higher then the rest from the following list:
Pick locks, Set traps, find and disable traps, Pick pocket, find secret compartment.
You really shouldn't need to have any fastkey for a skill like this, when you hover the pointer over a lock you should be able to choose to pick it.
Combat skills are slightly different but should also be flexible. To have 20 different skills for a rapier makes little sense. When you equip the weapon should a fast key bar just open up with the 10 or 12 attacks your skill give you. You could of course have a specific specialization there too, or allow people to change some skills with AA/feats/whatever.
But there is no need for 45 skills for each player. It does not make the game more fun.
As I see it should each class (if you have classes) give the player a few skills (including which armor the player can use). Then add the race which should have a few more skills. And after that the player customize his character with a few more skills he buy.
Like this, an elven rogue: Class skills: Light armor, Knife, throwing weapons, club, Larceny, Stealth, Acrobatics, thieves signs and appraising. Elf: Rapier, nightvision and herbalism. AA specializations: Appraising, alchemy, Language: Troll and Shortbow.
You get the basic skills from your class but can buy enough to make your character special, and you can respec the last skill set later and gain a few more skill in the long run.
Few and simple enough skills that are flexible with one specialization of every skill (which the player can change later for some gold). Certain classes will have less skill but heavier armors and more weapons to choose from, but they will still be able to buy AA skills that are cross class or generic (even if some skills can be one class only, or cost twice a normal skill for other classes.
Pen and paper RPGs have used similar systems since the late 70s, it works.
One of my largest pet peeves with themepark type games is the whole hot bar thing. Everquest 2 is terrible at this.. when I have to start using a macro to assign three different spells or abilitise based on similar recast timers in order to save limited keyboard numbers.. SOMETHING IS WRONG WITH THE DESIGN OF YOUR GAME.
Specalization is the key developers should focus on imo. If your a healer, you should make healing or support a top priority. If your a damage dealer, you should be focusing on killing, not watching health bars. In a group based game, if balanced properly, 5 highly specced players should ALWAYS have far greater potential than 5 players that are not specced and "jack of all trades"
In captalism, the economic system which drives the western world, specalization allows you to be really good at one thing, and trade for what you lack in, making the system much more effecient than what they call a command economy. I think classes should be the same way... Classes can be thought of as economies, they each bring something to the table, they should compliment and counterbalance eachother.... When you have 5 specalized "economies" whether their products or classes in WOW, mathmaticlly speaking they should always be much , much more effecient together than 5 jack of all trades working in tandum! Unfortantly, devs dont always balance things according to mathmatics, so you have that issue as well.
Now , dont get me wrong, im not saying that healers should always heal,but if a healer wants to do damage, and focus 100% on damage, they should have to give up more in healing then they gain in damage...and even then they should never be a true DPS class.... i mean, why be a medic if you want to kill? If players want to play ineffeciently fine, thats their choice, but devs should lead or HIGHLY encourage (just short of force) specalization of player classes. Working together works!
Back to the hot bar issue, I think having too many hotbuttons lowers the strategic value of the game. Having to mash keys as soon as they come off CD to me is pointless, theres no skill involved, just memorize what rotation to use, or worse put it on a macro. I think every ability/spell should have a purpose, a time, and a place for it, and using spell X over ability Y in situation Z should be meaningful and have impact. One more thing that irks me about abilities/spells, is you dont always know how much impact they have. Look at WOW for example, you have abilities that do % of XYZ every ABC magnified by talents affected by co effecients and snygerized with other spells. Please, do not make such a convulated system that it takes a math major to figure out what something does, and whether it is useful or not. KISS(keep it simple stupid). After all, a overflowing ability system split between PVE/PVP is impossible to balance, as blizzard has finally come to realizee.
In closing, I really really miss the days of EQ1 where you had TEN spell slots PERIOD, and you could only change them out when out of combat! Even before the invention of talents, what you put on your spell bar before a raid determined your role during the raid...to a degree eq1 has more "specilization" than the talent laden WOW, atleast in terms of spell choice during combat... and eq1 combat encounters lasted alot longer than your modern day MMO encounters.