This was one of the things that annoyed me so much about Aion. I don't know why developers started feeling like creating a need for those gamer mouses (the ones that have more buttons on them than the friggin keyboards) was necessary. I remember the days of Ragnarok Online, Anarchy, etc., even as recently as City of Heroes and Guild Wars (and Guild Wars 2 from the looks of it so far). You get the skills you NEED. There's not a whole lot of extra fluff, dozens of skills you never use, and even dozens more that could be condensed into a few separate skills.
I want my skills to feel useful and necessary, I don't want 4 shortcut bars of skills with only one that ever gets used. By the same token I don't want 4 shortcut bars of skills that I need all of, all the time x_x too much micro-managing for me. Skill systems in general could desperately use some simplifying. The only time I should have that many skills available to me is when the game features multi-classing, or if my skills have evolved and thus those that came before it can be removed from my shortcuts and replaced with their higher versions.
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
Your compalining about the fact you get allot of variety in how to play your character? No one is forcing you to use them all pick some favorites stick with them, change them out when you enter differant situations eq1 was like this except you had limited hotbars on purpose so you could change the playstyle as needed on certain classes, if anything this adds to the depth and fun factor of mmos, not many enjoy the same old repetitive spam 10 skills, having a wide variety makes things allot more fun about the journey seriously, I am starting to think your a little lost to.
Maybe you just do not like making so many choices there are guides in what skills do what you know do some research, or play a cookie cutter linear mmo and I am sure you will be happy. It amazes me that this is the second thread I seen about this subject this week, you sure that wasnt you?
You obviously didn't don't get what I'm trying to say.
For example: In WoW, the rogue has an ability called sinister strike, you get it at level 1 and use it throughout the entire game for the most part. You use this skill like once every 1 or 2 seconds through every single battle. It does some damage and gives you combo points so you can use mutilate or whatever the skill is that uses combo points. It's basically mindless spam of the same skill over and over and over. Every class has one of these skils.
Slow the combat down a little bit and make the skills you use mean a little more.
Actually Mutilate is the skill you use instead of Sinister Strike if you are a dagger rogue:).
So your complaint is that there are too few skills in WoW?
My complaint is that there is too much button mashing and not enough brain using
Except when somoene introduces the idea of environmental forms of combat (pulling levers, traps, etc.) you dislike it.
I think that if we had more Boss fights that required players to pull levers and swing pendulums to harm them, even the 1-5 abilities we did use wouldn't even matter as much because of all the fun environmental forms of combat.
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
Your compalining about the fact you get allot of variety in how to play your character? No one is forcing you to use them all pick some favorites stick with them, change them out when you enter differant situations eq1 was like this except you had limited hotbars on purpose so you could change the playstyle as needed on certain classes, if anything this adds to the depth and fun factor of mmos, not many enjoy the same old repetitive spam 10 skills, having a wide variety makes things allot more fun about the journey seriously, I am starting to think your a little lost to.
Maybe you just do not like making so many choices there are guides in what skills do what you know do some research, or play a cookie cutter linear mmo and I am sure you will be happy. It amazes me that this is the second thread I seen about this subject this week, you sure that wasnt you?
You obviously didn't don't get what I'm trying to say.
For example: In WoW, the rogue has an ability called sinister strike, you get it at level 1 and use it throughout the entire game for the most part. You use this skill like once every 1 or 2 seconds through every single battle. It does some damage and gives you combo points so you can use mutilate or whatever the skill is that uses combo points. It's basically mindless spam of the same skill over and over and over. Every class has one of these skils.
Slow the combat down a little bit and make the skills you use mean a little more.
Actually Mutilate is the skill you use instead of Sinister Strike if you are a dagger rogue:).
So your complaint is that there are too few skills in WoW?
My complaint is that there is too much button mashing and not enough brain using
Except when somoene introduces the idea of environmental forms of combat (pulling levers, traps, etc.) you dislike it.
I think that if we had more Boss fights that required players to pull levers and swing pendulums to harm them, even the 1-5 abilities we did use wouldn't even matter as much because of all the fun environmental forms of combat
That stuff already exists. I know for certain there are raid bosses in WoW that require you to click different things around the room to harm the boss or make the boss weak. And I'm sure other games have this as well, it's not new or innovative.
I'm talking about Simple combat that takes team to master.
In FFXI your team works together in order to defeat an opponent. A couple years back before all the changes it took a LOT of teamwork to down a raid boss.
Nowadays in WoW and other games, all you do is press 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 alt1 alt2 etc etc going through every abilitiy over and over as each one pops up. Its too simple and too much button mashing. Make Skillchains the norm, FORCE people to work together. Its a MMO for crying out loud. If you want to solo and you don't care about playing cooperatively with other, WTF are you online for? Seriously. Go play a single player game.
I think every game should have a monthly fee, offline or on. If people don't want to be "forced" into grouping, you can go play offline, but when you're online? Make every single encounter require a team.
Mostly for PVE there are to many skills, it becomes different for PVP cause your skill can or will be countered, this doesn't really happen in PVE, as in PVE you can almost use 1-3 skills without any worry.
I would rather see the PVE game being enhanced so that different type of mobs can counter different kind skills, same with animals, but don't want to see it enhanced into the less challenging trinity setup cause that's far to predicteble, let human targets be like the Borg where they might addept to counter certain skills.
Overall I am the type of player that likes his options in skills, I actually prefer to use different type of skills and hardly will use the "I Win button" skill in PVE.
Nowadays in WoW and other games, all you do is press 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 alt1 alt2 etc etc going through every abilitiy over and over as each one pops up. Its too simple and too much button mashing. Make Skillchains the norm, FORCE people to work together. Its a MMO for crying out loud. If you want to solo and you don't care about playing cooperatively with other, WTF are you online for? Seriously. Go play a single player game.
I really do not see how teamwork requires gimmicks like skillchains. Heck, a complex bossfight is one big skillchain where the synergy between each character's abilities is what makes the team much more powerful then the sum of their individual contributions.
Also your simplistic view of WoW combat is laughable. Back in Vanilla most peopel could get away with just spamming the same attack over and over but now classes work on priority systems where one activates skills based on procs and debuffs. These can change based on the mechanics and duration of the fight. Understanding your priority setup can more than double your effectiveness in a fight.
Nowadays in WoW and other games, all you do is press 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 alt1 alt2 etc etc going through every abilitiy over and over as each one pops up. Its too simple and too much button mashing. Make Skillchains the norm, FORCE people to work together. Its a MMO for crying out loud. If you want to solo and you don't care about playing cooperatively with other, WTF are you online for? Seriously. Go play a single player game.
I really do not see how teamwork requires gimmicks like skillchains. Heck, a complex bossfight is one big skillchain where the synergy between each character's abilities is what makes the team much more powerful then the sum of their individual contributions.
Also your simplistic view of WoW combat is laughable. Back in Vanilla most peopel could get away with just spamming the same attack over and over but now classes work on priority systems where one activates skills based on procs and debuffs. These can change based on the mechanics and duration of the fight. Understanding your priority setup can more than double your effectiveness in a fight.
In WoW, you top the meters with 2 things: Gear and knowing which sequence of buttons is best for optimized DPS.
I exagerated with the 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 but in reality, you might be doing something like this: 1 1 1 2 1 1 4 1 1 2 3 1 1 1 1 1 1
its really just button mashing.
in FFXI if everyone just spammed weaponskills in an exp party, you would be fighting the mob forever. Make the mobs tough, and when the team works together to create a skillchain and MB for huge damage, you are rewarded with fast EXP.
This is why I love Mount and Blade. Simple to learn, hard to master. There are only a couple of real attacks you ever use in melee. Slash, thrust and downward chop for bladed weapons. Axes, hammers and mauls have like three attacks. Same for most pole arms, like spears and pikes. Then it is just a matter of knowing where and when to place one of those three attacks(you can strike at all types of angles and heights). It might not be very sparkly or flashy, but it is a hellafun trying to get past someones defenses, like a shield user or an experienced player that can handle a pole arm like a spear. Plus there is no lock targetting or auto attack in Mount and Blade. Combat can be fast and furious though when you use the short swords or special swords like scimitars. Gotta be quick to feign, block and or slash at the proper time. Wicked fun.
I am all for a large array of skills which properties like:
- Cooldown on skills, so you have an ability you can use only after a certain period
- Cost on skills, so you have to think which skill to use and when, because you cant just "button mash"
- Special attacks that only open if you get a critical hit with a skill, or if you work on a special counter (such as adrenaline on Guild Wars Warrior, or the many Bloodpoint/Virtue/Yin etc counters on Vanguard classes)
- Weaknesses on opponents that can be exploited by other classes by using the corresponding attack that exploits said weakness
- Buffs from skills on the player, which the player would like to renew
- Debuffs from skills, special attacks, exploitage etc on the opponent
- Stance which modify your overall setup (such as a berserk mode that wounds you and lowers your defenses, but increases damage, etc)
In short, skill useage should be an art. In every situation you should have multiple options that have different advantages.
I am all for a large array of skills which properties like:
- Cooldown on skills, so you have an ability you can use only after a certain period
- Cost on skills, so you have to think which skill to use and when, because you cant just "button mash"
- Special attacks that only open if you get a critical hit with a skill, or if you work on a special counter (such as adrenaline on Guild Wars Warrior, or the many Bloodpoint/Virtue/Yin etc counters on Vanguard classes)
- Weaknesses on opponents that can be exploited by other classes by using the corresponding attack that exploits said weakness
- Buffs from skills on the player, which the player would like to renew
- Debuffs from skills, special attacks, exploitage etc on the opponent
- Stance which modify your overall setup (such as a berserk mode that wounds you and lowers your defenses, but increases damage, etc)
In short, skill useage should be an art. In every situation you should have multiple options that have different advantages.
"should" = 8/10 turns an MMO into button mashing seems to be the problem the OP suggests ? All those little skills need loadsa buttons and the faster you can mash them = I win "button(s)"
Here's my response: Karate Champ:
~ "Hiyaaaa!"
But seriously, this game only uses 2 joystick direction combinations for all the moves and the counter and attack has great depth to it in PvP.
I hope GW2 with it's 10 slot skills and x2 weapon changing reduces button-mashing and increases using skills contextually and proactively to what you expect on the screen and not a combination of stats for a build. The addition of traits etc should add the micro to this macro and only come into play when the context player A skill = player B skill / counter... then the micro kicks in what a player is doing with the depth to further skill variations...
I'd agree with OP though I have not played as many MMOs to compare all, only from my own experience but does seem to be a case of: Quantity making up for lack of quality? The exception being if you really enjoy min/max builds for PvE then maybe this adds to that complexity and is good gameplay from that pov but not sure it works so well for PvP, especially.
"should" = 8/10 turns an MMO into button mashing seems to be the problem the OP suggests ? All those little skills need loadsa buttons and the faster you can mash them = I win "button(s)"
Isn't the reason why all those skills have cooldowns so you don't get 'button mashing'? With cooldowns it becomes a test of timing and paying attention to the state of the fight. In setups like that 'button mashing' ecomes a very subpar way to play as you miss out on your most powerful combinations of attacks.
This is why I love Mount and Blade. Simple to learn, hard to master. There are only a couple of real attacks you ever use in melee. Slash, thrust and downward chop for bladed weapons. Axes, hammers and mauls have like three attacks. Same for most pole arms, like spears and pikes. Then it is just a matter of knowing where and when to place one of those three attacks(you can strike at all types of angles and heights). It might not be very sparkly or flashy, but it is a hellafun trying to get past someones defenses, like a shield user or an experienced player that can handle a pole arm like a spear. Plus there is no lock targetting or auto attack in Mount and Blade. Combat can be fast and furious though when you use the short swords or special swords like scimitars. Gotta be quick to feign, block and or slash at the proper time. Wicked fun.
To each his own. I find zero appeal in that system.
I think the remedy for this situation is very simple. Everquest had way more abilities than any game I can remember. However, they limited the capacity of the spell bar. It only allowed 8 slots. By limiting how many abilities can be used on a hotbar creates strategy. It entices the player to think and be wise with their choices for certain situations within gameplay.
I personally think that 8 slots is not enough. From alot of testing and theorizing, I would conclude at this time that about 15-20 slots should be available and thats it. You can have them all on one singular hot bar or you can break up that 15-20 slots whatever way you desire. 15-20 slots is just enough to limit the player with a vast array of abilities. This number also allows the player to still be strategic as well as being adaptive within combat.
I for one love a lot of options and diversity within abilities. I believe the primary problem with "too many skills" is essentially that you only inititally use a couple handfulls of abilities. Some abilities are used more often than others. That will be a given. To combat this, I really think that the AI needs to be improved and be more intricate.
Comments
This was one of the things that annoyed me so much about Aion. I don't know why developers started feeling like creating a need for those gamer mouses (the ones that have more buttons on them than the friggin keyboards) was necessary. I remember the days of Ragnarok Online, Anarchy, etc., even as recently as City of Heroes and Guild Wars (and Guild Wars 2 from the looks of it so far). You get the skills you NEED. There's not a whole lot of extra fluff, dozens of skills you never use, and even dozens more that could be condensed into a few separate skills.
I want my skills to feel useful and necessary, I don't want 4 shortcut bars of skills with only one that ever gets used. By the same token I don't want 4 shortcut bars of skills that I need all of, all the time x_x too much micro-managing for me. Skill systems in general could desperately use some simplifying. The only time I should have that many skills available to me is when the game features multi-classing, or if my skills have evolved and thus those that came before it can be removed from my shortcuts and replaced with their higher versions.
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
Except when somoene introduces the idea of environmental forms of combat (pulling levers, traps, etc.) you dislike it.
I think that if we had more Boss fights that required players to pull levers and swing pendulums to harm them, even the 1-5 abilities we did use wouldn't even matter as much because of all the fun environmental forms of combat.
If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.
Mostly for PVE there are to many skills, it becomes different for PVP cause your skill can or will be countered, this doesn't really happen in PVE, as in PVE you can almost use 1-3 skills without any worry.
I would rather see the PVE game being enhanced so that different type of mobs can counter different kind skills, same with animals, but don't want to see it enhanced into the less challenging trinity setup cause that's far to predicteble, let human targets be like the Borg where they might addept to counter certain skills.
Overall I am the type of player that likes his options in skills, I actually prefer to use different type of skills and hardly will use the "I Win button" skill in PVE.
I really do not see how teamwork requires gimmicks like skillchains. Heck, a complex bossfight is one big skillchain where the synergy between each character's abilities is what makes the team much more powerful then the sum of their individual contributions.
Also your simplistic view of WoW combat is laughable. Back in Vanilla most peopel could get away with just spamming the same attack over and over but now classes work on priority systems where one activates skills based on procs and debuffs. These can change based on the mechanics and duration of the fight. Understanding your priority setup can more than double your effectiveness in a fight.
In WoW, you top the meters with 2 things: Gear and knowing which sequence of buttons is best for optimized DPS.
I exagerated with the 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 but in reality, you might be doing something like this: 1 1 1 2 1 1 4 1 1 2 3 1 1 1 1 1 1
its really just button mashing.
in FFXI if everyone just spammed weaponskills in an exp party, you would be fighting the mob forever. Make the mobs tough, and when the team works together to create a skillchain and MB for huge damage, you are rewarded with fast EXP.
This is why I love Mount and Blade. Simple to learn, hard to master. There are only a couple of real attacks you ever use in melee. Slash, thrust and downward chop for bladed weapons. Axes, hammers and mauls have like three attacks. Same for most pole arms, like spears and pikes. Then it is just a matter of knowing where and when to place one of those three attacks(you can strike at all types of angles and heights). It might not be very sparkly or flashy, but it is a hellafun trying to get past someones defenses, like a shield user or an experienced player that can handle a pole arm like a spear. Plus there is no lock targetting or auto attack in Mount and Blade. Combat can be fast and furious though when you use the short swords or special swords like scimitars. Gotta be quick to feign, block and or slash at the proper time. Wicked fun.
Uh, I dont really get what this thread is about.
Too MANY skills ?
I am all for a large array of skills which properties like:
- Cooldown on skills, so you have an ability you can use only after a certain period
- Cost on skills, so you have to think which skill to use and when, because you cant just "button mash"
- Special attacks that only open if you get a critical hit with a skill, or if you work on a special counter (such as adrenaline on Guild Wars Warrior, or the many Bloodpoint/Virtue/Yin etc counters on Vanguard classes)
- Weaknesses on opponents that can be exploited by other classes by using the corresponding attack that exploits said weakness
- Buffs from skills on the player, which the player would like to renew
- Debuffs from skills, special attacks, exploitage etc on the opponent
- Stance which modify your overall setup (such as a berserk mode that wounds you and lowers your defenses, but increases damage, etc)
In short, skill useage should be an art. In every situation you should have multiple options that have different advantages.
"should" = 8/10 turns an MMO into button mashing seems to be the problem the OP suggests ? All those little skills need loadsa buttons and the faster you can mash them = I win "button(s)"
Here's my response: Karate Champ:
~ "Hiyaaaa!"
But seriously, this game only uses 2 joystick direction combinations for all the moves and the counter and attack has great depth to it in PvP.
I hope GW2 with it's 10 slot skills and x2 weapon changing reduces button-mashing and increases using skills contextually and proactively to what you expect on the screen and not a combination of stats for a build. The addition of traits etc should add the micro to this macro and only come into play when the context player A skill = player B skill / counter... then the micro kicks in what a player is doing with the depth to further skill variations...
I'd agree with OP though I have not played as many MMOs to compare all, only from my own experience but does seem to be a case of: Quantity making up for lack of quality? The exception being if you really enjoy min/max builds for PvE then maybe this adds to that complexity and is good gameplay from that pov but not sure it works so well for PvP, especially.
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
Isn't the reason why all those skills have cooldowns so you don't get 'button mashing'? With cooldowns it becomes a test of timing and paying attention to the state of the fight. In setups like that 'button mashing' ecomes a very subpar way to play as you miss out on your most powerful combinations of attacks.
To each his own. I find zero appeal in that system.
A Remedy for "Too Many Skills"
I think the remedy for this situation is very simple. Everquest had way more abilities than any game I can remember. However, they limited the capacity of the spell bar. It only allowed 8 slots. By limiting how many abilities can be used on a hotbar creates strategy. It entices the player to think and be wise with their choices for certain situations within gameplay.
I personally think that 8 slots is not enough. From alot of testing and theorizing, I would conclude at this time that about 15-20 slots should be available and thats it. You can have them all on one singular hot bar or you can break up that 15-20 slots whatever way you desire. 15-20 slots is just enough to limit the player with a vast array of abilities. This number also allows the player to still be strategic as well as being adaptive within combat.
I for one love a lot of options and diversity within abilities. I believe the primary problem with "too many skills" is essentially that you only inititally use a couple handfulls of abilities. Some abilities are used more often than others. That will be a given. To combat this, I really think that the AI needs to be improved and be more intricate.