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My issue with EVE and its skill system
bmoscato
Member Posts: 40
I’m not 100% sure I like the way the skill system works. There is no benefit to log into the game while training skills. I don’t get stronger for killing rats; but I do gain faction for flying missions. I would think that there would be some kind of matrix that would allow trickle down for people that actually play. Some formula that would allow weapon skills to advance while rat hunting or industry skills to go up while mining or basic ship skills to go up while flying from point to point whether it’s to pick up an item or running a courier mission.
What are the incentives to log in verses passively train skills? I can kill rats for meager earnings, run missions for some ISK or mine to try and make some cash. Yes, I know about Loyalty Points for doing missions and dog tags from rat hunting… But what makes me stronger by playing? I’m not asking about richer!
Comments
When I want to fly that new ship NOW, I hate it. When I'm busy and can't play for a couple days, log in, hear "skill training completed"...and can fly that new ship..I like it.
This is what I wrote recently in response to same questions:
Does it make more sense now?
This is exactly my point. You have a goal that you'd like to accomplish but there is nothing you can do to help its progression. You click the button to train a skill and then you log out.
CCP has made anext to realistic skill system...think about this.....in real life you want to...oh say fix a TV...yet you have no skills...so you read, maybe watch a vid and talk to friends....that takes time...so do skills in eve...if you think you can fly a battleship the first day of training find another game. Remember too...skills continue to train even when your not in game. Time based skills are a as close to real system for learning and I'd rather more games look to doing the same. Eve is not a jump in and be a Hero game...it takes time, learning and patience. I suggest finding a decent corporation to join in game....for learning the game I suggest looking to Eve University...they specialize in teaching and explaining the ways of Eve to new and old players alike. Hoped this helped...Eve is a great game....just not for the impatient.
HMMM, the post is a bit generalized, but, I guess the way CPP wants you to get stronger is by gaining a group of friends, after all, as CPP has always geared the game as a PvP hardcore game.
Wrong the game is geared toward group play.
I think Eve is supposed to be as real as can be for a game. I mean anything can happen to you at anytime. There is no "instanced" missions which makes it hard for new guys who finish a mission then go to salvage and loot it only to find someone else in there doing it. Or the now yearly infamous Hulkegeddon where any miners are sought out and destroyed for no reason at all except to boost the egos of Hi sec banditos. Is it fair....at first I was pissy then thought how great CCP actually did....think outside the gaming box....if we were in real space...you get the picture. Alot of people are turned off by Eve for its steep learning curve and massive pvp but there are plenty of ways to do your thing without asshats messing up your experience. Find a ggod corp...that my friends is the first goal of a new Eve player.
I'm going to take a stab at answering this from my perspective: To play the game and have fun without worrying about a level/skill grind.
If I can't do something myself, I work with a corp member to do it. I have no illusions that I am, or will be, a 'solo-pwn-machine' so there is no need to worry about the skill training from a moment-to-moment game play point of view. Instead, I take a long term view of my character development and just enjoy playing the game.
I see strength, in EvE at least, as being measured by relationships more so then the ship you fly. Other people might see it differently, but hopefully that provides another way of looking at it.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
FYI, I also have this on the official EVE forums for those of you following both.
Maybe I should clarify some things. I’m tired of everyone telling people to go back to WOW if you don’t like this or that about any game! I don’t play WOW. I’ve played EVE on and off since Beta. I’ve had friends come and go, corporations formed and disbanded. I’ve PVP’d back in the days of mOo. I’ve seen skill changes from flying 10 drones with just the advanced drone interfacing maxed to having to train 27 different skills to get 5 drones flying proficiently…
The only constant for me is that I keep leaving the game. The only thing that was captivating was the human interaction over Team Speak or some other voice application.
I don't see how skill system plays a role here. You play any game as long as it provides you enjoyment, regardless if it has got leveling or real time skill system. Period.
My issue with EVE is I see the Trailers and Ads and think "OMG what game is that?!"
Then I see its EVE which I have already played and dont get me wrong EVE is a GREAT game its just not for me.
It is very relaxing and detail oriented. If you rush in and dont plan or think you will get your ship destroyed, realize insurance pays a fraction fo your ships value, and then have to start from scratch building and/or buying a new ship.
This was written mostly in part to those that say I should go play WOW or for those that were talking to me as if I were new to EVE. I was giving a very basic background about myself and EVE.
QFT.
The intent of the skill system in Eve is to wipe out the whole concept of grinding for levels/skills, so that all that's left is to do whatever you want to do, with the means you have to do it.
You mine because you want to. You run missions because you want to. You PvP because you want to. You sit and tinker with your ship because you want to. You run player contract missions because you want to. You sit in the hangar and yap all night with your buds because you want to.
The game doesn't encourage you to do anything other than that which you WANT to do. That's the beauty of it.
In your first post you come out as someone who does not know how the game and skill training system works.
Then you make a second post stating you play the game from beta and supposedly being familiar with the game and skill training.
If you ask why you keep playing on and off, I see no relation to skill system because any game you play for fun, if it stops being fun, you stop playing. Simple as that.
If that is not what you ask, what is your point then?
Skills get ridiculous once everything takes days or weeks at best. Until then you at least do progress. No XP means you can play however you like and not be punished for it.
You can however grind ISK. You can also grind standings. Both can be very valuable - or not. Depends on what you do. It is not like you do something more in WoW at cap.
just so you know, eve is Cuthroat Capitalism at its best in real life, Whoever has the most money is the most powerful...
you have a basic understanding of eve right now and from the sounds of your complaining it doesnt sound like you've left empire space much, in 0.0 most people tend to train their skills and let it go but they also play online working and trading to build up money for their corporation or alliance, its a way to actually play politics and learn about how the real world works with the economy
this game in essence is a training simulation for taking care of the business world, and even though Eve is an MMO that some think is otherwise different... its earned plenty of nicknames, more so what i have heard a lot is "Spreadsheets in space" basically you need to know a lot about excel or any form of spreadsheet system and know about risks and rewards..
anyways, the point is that this game is more or less telling you to make money and keep doing it that way if you happen to train your skills to make you better at it, ok thats a way to make more money faster and easier than just playing that old moonshiner you've got right now or something similar to it.
look at the former BoB organization, they had everything and its because they had used skills both from the game and outside the game with a lot of politics and management within the alliance.
This is exactly my point. You have a goal that you'd like to accomplish but there is nothing you can do to help its progression. You click the button to train a skill and then you log out.
Or I could do a number of other things while I'm waiting. Name an mmo that has no time factor. Even in wow you cant roll a toon and tank icc the same day. Maybe the second day.For the record, I wouldn't say that at all. My point is, to try to make clear how we as people, despite hating it, are oddly but surely drawn to that hamster wheel. In other games, we research and pick out the quickest path to the top, even if it means doing something that isn't fun.
I remember doing this even way back in the "Quest for Glory" games. You had 3 basic fighting skills which advanced by using them: Attack, block, and dodge. I would spend an hour just standing toe to toe, not attacking, just dodging, over and over and over again til' it was maxed out. It was tedious and silly, but I still did it. And my gaming experience was by no means richer for having done it.
Eve takes all that temptation away with this skill system. And the gaming experience, IMO, is far richer because of it.
Admit it. If fighting rats made your combat skills advance faster by even just a little bit, you'd be out grinding them for hours and hours, and probably hating every minute of it.
It's ok to confess! You're with peers!
Not at all, my first post I clearly stated that I’m not 100% sure if I like the way the skill system works in EVE; never once did I say that I was a noob and I didn’t understand it nor did I say that I hate the game. I guess I was looking to see if I was alone in my own meandering thoughts or if anyone else out there has the same thought process as me. The point of a public forum is to put my thoughts/questions out to the masses and see what they think. There are a lot of people out there that are intelligent and think differently than I and I wanted their input.
And that little percentage of you that's saying that is your inner hamster, trying to find or create a wheel where it doesn't exist! Do not give in to the dark side! Forget their cookies! They taste like broken dreams! :P
This is the best answer I've seen thus far. It's probably what CCP had in mind when they developed the system.
Also, you seem to want to deny the importance of wealth in the game, but if there is a main measure of progression in the game, it's not skills, it's wealth. And you're not going to gain wealth by doing nothing. Even so, it's only one measure of progression among many. You seem to want Eve boiled down to one means of progression, but that's simply not the way Eve works. You want a simplistic way of measuring progress and success, there isn't one. These are poor answers perhaps, but that's why I think Robsolf has the best answer.
I assume that if you did indeed understand the point, purpose and role of real-time skill system, you would not need to ask questions like 'What are the incentives to log in verses passively train skills?' .
/shrugs
However, you got some answers there regardless...
How about this....install EVEMON. Put every skill that you want to train in the first six months on a list. Now, go through that list and remove any level V skills. How does it look now? The avatar that you see next to my name in this post has almost 100 mil skill points. Guess what? Who cares. It is a personal achievement to me, but it means absolutely nothing in regards to how I fly my ships.
I die at gate camps like everyone else. I have been suicide ganked. In reality, the only skills that you really need to Level V are the named skills in each category for sometime. Coincidentally, they are all rank 1 skills. Level V skills are only to be trained for TWO reasons.
FIRST and foremost, because it is a prerequisite for something else. E.g. Battleship V for Capital Ships. Typically this is almost always Spaceship Command for the Tech2 ship model or Gunnery/Missiles for the T2 variant.
SECOND because you want to "max" out that skills speciality or bonuses. As a new player, this is never worth it. Now that learning skills are going away, it's even better for new people. You can focus on what you actually want to train now.
Always, always weigh out exactly what you are getting for maxing out a skill to V. In retrospect I have many level V's that weren't really worth it. However, at the time I couldn't see that. Is Battleship V more important for the ship bonii or is AWU more important because you get another 2% reduction to ALL weapon fits? Gauge your decisions carefully.
Okay..hopefully that was clear. In regards to wanting to gain skill while playing, it ties into why you need the level V skill to begin with. No one complains about level I-IV. Level V is where you will spend most of your time and require the yes or no decision.
If you can stop and realize that, you will be well ahead of your newbie brethen. Focus on levels I-IV, and worry about lvl V a bit later.
I hope that helps. Oh, and only use the certifications as a guideline. Please don't think it is absolute. Certs are pretty, but they are all wall candy, that is it.
Good Luck.
Playing: BF4/BF:Hardline, Subnautica 7 days to die
Hiatus: EvE
Waiting on: World of Darkness(sigh)
Interested in: better games in general
I agree Cactus, I've been playing on and off since March 04, and, Evemon, and, Eve Fitting Tool have been 2 of the best game helpers that I've used.
I've also died in many spectacular, and, stupid fashions, and, even though I've got decent skills, after nearly every patch, or, expansion, I feel like a new player all over again, and, to be honest, this is how a game is suppose to play like, making every decision count, and forcing you to rethink your ship set ups for every leveling up of a skill, to, even using Eve-surviaval.org site to map out mission battle plans, as for trading, eve metrics help you with the eve market.
Eve has a major back bone to it, but, sometimes, you have to just jump in feet first, and take those first lumps to get you ready for the real action.
Please note, in my earlier posting, I said that CPP centered the game around the pvp, but, actually, they did do that in the first couple years, but, now, they have expanded that scope, and, between group play of all styles have been established. I'm very sorry for the misunderstanding everyone.
And that is why I say EVE Online is the only 'sandbox' option out there. No other game can offer the same or is not even trying to achieve the same.