As usual the fan came out with their spin tactics, strawmans & facts twisting to defend their precious. They like to confuse people into giving up finding the ugly truth about the game.
Originally posted by Nekrataal The OP as the right idea. As usual the fan came out with their spin tactics, strawmans & facts twisting to defend their precious. They like to confuse people into giving up finding the ugly truth about the game. Classic!
You cannot confuse ignorant who thinks he is right.
EVE is a complex game. Talking about the skill system takes a bit of a finger stretch and you can already find some great replies to your question here.
CCP knows that if they would take an easier approach on the leveling system they would gain subscribers, but they would lose all the hard core players that have been loyal to the game all these years in existence.
Problem is that CCP doesnt handle player base subscriber as other companies do. They actually listen to community and the general opinion states that skill system is great the way it is. I dont 100% agree, but my opinion on it gauges the 99% thumbs up hehe so im ok with it.
Minor changes are on the way, but nothing relevant.
I have played dozens of MMOs and when it comes to EVE, CCP has my full respect..
Really think that EVE is one of those games that deserved world wide recognition.
EVE is not everyones cup of tea, even I have some gripes with their skilling up system and skill sets in general - which I do. I've written up on EVE on my blog a couple of times and to this day I have a love/dislike relationship with the game. I will say this, despite what others and CCP may claim - EVE is the least new player friendly game you can ever get into. Also, do not listen to the players that have been playing for going on 3+ years as to the fact that you can catch up and play with the people that have been playing 3+ years. The game does not allow you to - ever catch up with those that have been playing for years. If you really think you can go up against a vet and you have only been playing for 6 months or a year...hope you have the ISK to pay for that lost ship. They'll be in fully rigged T2 or T3 ship and have the SP to pilot it. You'll barely be flying a Cruiser or maybe a BS and have T2 guns...but there is no way you'll have maxed out the skills necessary to fly it properly. It takes over a year to train into a BS at the level that is required to be proficient with one....I know this because that is what it took me and I had maxed my training skills out for optimal training of the skills required to get into a BS and pilot it with any kind of proficiency.
Your looking for reasons to log in besides making isk or change skills. Well how about learning to pvp with the ship you use, both solo (if you can find it), and fleet pvp. Learning new ships, how to use, fly and fight. Learning how to scan down an enemy, how to trick them, how to avoid and escape them in turn. PvP not your thing? Learn how to manipulate the market, a great deal of satisfaction can be found in cornering the market on some specific item. Industry, if thats your thing, build ships, modules, etc. Mining, exploring wormholes, running plexes, making drugs, pirating, stealing alliance/corp assets, trading, etc. OMG in 5 years of playing I still haven't done everything, I think its impossible to achieve it all. Thats what makes it fun.
EVE is not everyones cup of tea, even I have some gripes with their skilling up system and skill sets in general - which I do. I've written up on EVE on my blog a couple of times and to this day I have a love/dislike relationship with the game. I will say this, despite what others and CCP may claim - EVE is the least new player friendly game you can ever get into. Also, do not listen to the players that have been playing for going on 3+ years as to the fact that you can catch up and play with the people that have been playing 3+ years. The game does not allow you to - ever catch up with those that have been playing for years. If you really think you can go up against a vet and you have only been playing for 6 months or a year...hope you have the ISK to pay for that lost ship. They'll be in fully rigged T2 or T3 ship and have the SP to pilot it. You'll barely be flying a Cruiser or maybe a BS and have T2 guns...but there is no way you'll have maxed out the skills necessary to fly it properly. It takes over a year to train into a BS at the level that is required to be proficient with one....I know this because that is what it took me and I had maxed my training skills out for optimal training of the skills required to get into a BS and pilot it with any kind of proficiency.
I got to agree with Teala here. 100% truethful post.
But you see Teala theres a flipside to that coin.
How about you play a game for 3/4/5 years only to find out that in the next expansion all you have accomplished gets minimized? You played the game for years and this guy just walks into the new expansion and gets to do all stuff you have done in half the time you spent doing it, easy mode, gets to your level, gets the gear, spanks you and the only difference betweem him and you is some crap tittle above your head or a list of what you´ve done and he hasnt done it yet...but no real impact in the game. No rewarding of the loyal player and the money that he invested in the game. Only MMO i played that feels a tad different about this is WAR and the RR system they use...dont know if there are more examples, but most MMOS follows this recipe.
Now, EVE, plays on an complete different set of principles. You play, you get to grow better, you get to know the game mechanics and you get to pawn any newcomer that dares to cross your way. And when the newcomer gets to be a solid pilot he will have the right to take a shot at you....but not before you play and pay the pain. That feels more real than the your side of the coin wouldnt you agree?
EVE is not everyones cup of tea, even I have some gripes with their skilling up system and skill sets in general - which I do. I've written up on EVE on my blog a couple of times and to this day I have a love/dislike relationship with the game. I will say this, despite what others and CCP may claim - EVE is the least new player friendly game you can ever get into. Also, do not listen to the players that have been playing for going on 3+ years as to the fact that you can catch up and play with the people that have been playing 3+ years. The game does not allow you to - ever catch up with those that have been playing for years. If you really think you can go up against a vet and you have only been playing for 6 months or a year...hope you have the ISK to pay for that lost ship. They'll be in fully rigged T2 or T3 ship and have the SP to pilot it. You'll barely be flying a Cruiser or maybe a BS and have T2 guns...but there is no way you'll have maxed out the skills necessary to fly it properly. It takes over a year to train into a BS at the level that is required to be proficient with one....I know this because that is what it took me and I had maxed my training skills out for optimal training of the skills required to get into a BS and pilot it with any kind of proficiency.
I got to agree with Teala here. 100% truethful post.
But you see Teala theres a flipside to that coin.
How about you play a game for 3/4/5 years only to find out that in the next expansion all you have accomplished gets minimized? You played the game for years and this guy just walks into the new expansion and gets to do all stuff you have done in half the time you spent doing it, easy mode, gets to your level, gets the gear, spanks you and the only difference betweem him and you is some crap tittle above your head or a list of what you´ve done and he hasnt done it yet...but no real impact in the game. No rewarding of the loyal player and the money that he invested in the game. Only MMO i played that feels a tad different about this is WAR and the RR system they use...dont know if there are more examples, but most MMOS follows this recipe.
Now, EVE, plays on an complete different set of principles. You play, you get to grow better, you get to know the game mechanics and you get to pawn any newcomer that dares to cross your way. And when the newcomer gets to be a solid pilot he will have the right to take a shot at you....but not before you play and pay the pain. That feels more real than the your side of the coin wouldnt you agree?
So in your game, its OK for vets to just steamroll new players? OK cool. I gank my share of lowbies. What I find funny is that if you allow a player to actually catch up and he/she comes and takes a shot at you and wins...then that tells me that all that time you spent WTF pwning lowbies due to your superior SP, and not actual game skills, proves you were never that good of gamer to begin with. So the coin can still flip and stand on edge from time to time...rare..but it can happen. I'm all for some kind of progression in a game...but only to a point.
Look at how things worked in Planetside. A brand new player could wtfpwn a vet from time to time...not based on some superficial jacked up skill system that favors the vet always...but because the new player really is a good player. There comes a time when "player skill" should be in the equation. To many of these games are level based and level does not always mean that the other player is good. It just means that they are at level. I don't care how long you've been playing a game. That doesn't give any right to a free "I will always win button"...somewhere the progression has to end to allow others the opportunity to catch up so that they can play on a level playing field. Is it possible to catch up in EVE. Yes...if you are willing to wait a year or more to train the required skills to do it. That is a year plus some months, of $14.99 a month payments to finally be able to compete in EVE at the levels a vast majority of EVE's player base is at. I am sorry in my opinion(and I know many EVE players will disagree), but that is wrong.
That is why a game like WoW is so popular. A new player can level a toon in a couple of months of steady gaming and be a viable force in PvP and not feel like they can never catch up.
EVE is what it is though. It is how the designers made it and now they are pretty much stuck with it. If they change it to drastically and allow new players a means to actually progress faster via actual game play - than yeah...the vets of the game will get all pissy, and bent out of shape and say "that's not fair" - instead of saying, cool...more players to challenge me.
Oh and one last little thing.
If EVE trully was a sandbox, then the game itself should provide the necessary environment to keep people play past getting to level or skill capped. Not saying that EVE doesn't have trading and mining and what not...it does. It also has corps. But those things and more should be what the game is all about...not skilling up and waiting for that proverbial "Skill training complete message." Like I said...what harm is there for a player to get up to speed faster and be able to actual stand a chance in the higher end part of the game sooner? Sereiously...is the player base of EVE scared that a two month old player will actually challenge them in some way and this scares them?
Also!
EVE is one game that takes grinding to a whole new level. Seriously...the difference is the grind is in real time and cost real money. No matter how much time you spend in game eating astroids or fending off other players from your sector of space...you'll never progress further in a skill than is pre-scripted in the games code. At least in games like Aion and L2 and WoW...a player can level at their own pace. In EVE...CCP controls your characters speed of progression...not you.
Eve does not hold your hand and tell you how your character is going to progress over a predefined set of levels. Also measuring Eve on a 1 vs 1 basis does not seem in any way fair. If a new pilot wants what quite a few people feel like is more of an advanced/mature gaming experience all thye need to do is find a good 0.0 corp. You can join and learn gang/fleet tactics and end up joining in on battles even with a frigate that you can be flying well fairly quickly and even more so once they patch the learning skills.
The learning skill patch will give newcomers quite a boost the vets did not have. And measuring 1 pilot against another just does not do the game justice. It is about joining a corp to get help with learning and getting the experiences you are looking for by teaming up with the vets to take out other gangs and fleets of ships instead of worrying about trying to take out 1 vet. If you are looking for a solo experience where yuo can grind your way to a level playing field in days/weeks/months to be on a level playing field with folks that have been playing for years you will not find it in Eve. If you are willing to join a good corp and learn you can take part in the same battles the vets do easily within a month or 2 just don't expect to be doing it by yourself.
The learning curve is steep but it is lessened with making friends and learning from them instead of going from site to site and tying to read it all. Eve is a game where if you are willing to play well with others you can have the same experiences as those that have been playing for years by flying with them. Eventually your skills will get up to where you can fit a fly the ship you want well. But you are right there is no predefined course that will put you in a capital ship in a month like you can grind out in other games. You can have the same combat/game experiences tho as the long term players by joining their corp/team and being a part of the bigger picture and simply training the skills you want and getting into the role you want to fill. But there are many other objectives you can reach over the course of your playing Eve than having your hand held to the max level at which time you become competitiive 1 on 1 with other folks. Most other games then become eiher a PvP battle or a dungeon grind for more gear instead of having the vast amounts of options that eve gives you to further your gaming experience.
Eve is not a grind leavels till you have determined you have beat the game kind of game. It is join a corp and make friends and have fun with those friends as you skill up to enjoy what the game has to offer. It is a more diverse experience than a game that takes you by the hand says here is the max level/end goal go for it and you will more or less have the same experience getting there as every other single person playing the game.
Eve is a more rewarding experience for those willing to work with others to find what they find enjoyable instead of having to grind levels. Folks feel like Eve is more of a grind then other games but you arn't grinding for levels or end game you are putting the needed work in for what you find to be fun or want to accomplish with your gaming experience instead of playing another game that is going to tell you what that is before you ever start playing.
The 'never catch up' argument is pretty ridiculous...
In level grinding systems, you will never catch up to no-lifers who have more time to spent with the game.
In micro-transaction systems, you will never catch up to fat wallets who have more money to spent on the game.
Real-time skill system is the only system that treats everyone the same and given point in time, you will have equal amount of skill points as everyone else.
When I want to fly that new ship NOW, I hate it. When I'm busy and can't play for a couple days, log in, hear "skill training completed"...and can fly that new ship..I like it.
There is one really, really good reason for the skill-based learning: subscriptions! When you get a skill that takes 2 weeks to train, and the next one is 3-4 weeks, CCP is guaranteed your sub if you want to fully train it. And the thing is that you don't need to log in to progress in skills. So it's like Progress Quest....but you pay for it.
When I want to fly that new ship NOW, I hate it. When I'm busy and can't play for a couple days, log in, hear "skill training completed"...and can fly that new ship..I like it.
There is one really, really good reason for the skill-based learning: subscriptions! When you get a skill that takes 2 weeks to train, and the next one is 3-4 weeks, CCP is guaranteed your sub if you want to fully train it. And the thing is that you don't need to log in to progress in skills. So it's like Progress Quest....but you pay for it.
Bring on the flames baby!
insanex
Why do you train those skills if you dont want to use them?
Look at how things worked in Planetside. A brand new player could wtfpwn a vet from time to time...not based on some superficial jacked up skill system that favors the vet always...but because the new player really is a good player. There comes a time when "player skill" should be in the equation. "
Are you trying to imply this cannot and does not happen in EVE? Because if so, you're about to be made to look very ignorant at best, if not flat-out dishonest.
Look at how things worked in Planetside. A brand new player could wtfpwn a vet from time to time...not based on some superficial jacked up skill system that favors the vet always...but because the new player really is a good player. There comes a time when "player skill" should be in the equation. "
Are you trying to imply this cannot and does not happen in EVE? Because if so, you're about to be made to look very ignorant at best, if not flat-out dishonest.
Look at how things worked in Planetside. A brand new player could wtfpwn a vet from time to time...not based on some superficial jacked up skill system that favors the vet always...but because the new player really is a good player. There comes a time when "player skill" should be in the equation. "
Are you trying to imply this cannot and does not happen in EVE? Because if so, you're about to be made to look very ignorant at best, if not flat-out dishonest.
Nope, because I once wtfpwned a BS and I was in a Cruiser. ^_^ That was luck! Not skill. Just pure luck. He must have screwed up or something...I got under his guns or he didn't expect me to come in so close as to actually challenge him instead of rolling over and playing dead...or maybe..just maybe he was actually a really bad player.
The only way a new player can actually participate in the end game in a way that I think most people are consider an end game is if they join a corp. The problem is most corps will not even give you a second glance if you have less than 5mil SP. Some won't even take you unless you have 10mil! Tell me that is BS. There is but a couple of exception and that is EVE University and some other...but I heard storis from players that they do not get the help they are promised. ::shrugs::
I played EVE and I earned my BS the hard way and then some. So I know the game.
EVE is not everyones cup of tea, even I have some gripes with their skilling up system and skill sets in general - which I do. I've written up on EVE on my blog a couple of times and to this day I have a love/dislike relationship with the game. I will say this, despite what others and CCP may claim - EVE is the least new player friendly game you can ever get into. Also, do not listen to the players that have been playing for going on 3+ years as to the fact that you can catch up and play with the people that have been playing 3+ years. The game does not allow you to - ever catch up with those that have been playing for years. If you really think you can go up against a vet and you have only been playing for 6 months or a year...hope you have the ISK to pay for that lost ship. They'll be in fully rigged T2 or T3 ship and have the SP to pilot it. You'll barely be flying a Cruiser or maybe a BS and have T2 guns...but there is no way you'll have maxed out the skills necessary to fly it properly. It takes over a year to train into a BS at the level that is required to be proficient with one....I know this because that is what it took me and I had maxed my training skills out for optimal training of the skills required to get into a BS and pilot it with any kind of proficiency.
I got to agree with Teala here. 100% truethful post.
But you see Teala theres a flipside to that coin.
How about you play a game for 3/4/5 years only to find out that in the next expansion all you have accomplished gets minimized? You played the game for years and this guy just walks into the new expansion and gets to do all stuff you have done in half the time you spent doing it, easy mode, gets to your level, gets the gear, spanks you and the only difference betweem him and you is some crap tittle above your head or a list of what you´ve done and he hasnt done it yet...but no real impact in the game. No rewarding of the loyal player and the money that he invested in the game. Only MMO i played that feels a tad different about this is WAR and the RR system they use...dont know if there are more examples, but most MMOS follows this recipe.
Now, EVE, plays on an complete different set of principles. You play, you get to grow better, you get to know the game mechanics and you get to pawn any newcomer that dares to cross your way. And when the newcomer gets to be a solid pilot he will have the right to take a shot at you....but not before you play and pay the pain. That feels more real than the your side of the coin wouldnt you agree?
So in your game, its OK for vets to just steamroll new players? OK cool. I gank my share of lowbies. What I find funny is that if you allow a player to actually catch up and he/she comes and takes a shot at you and wins...then that tells me that all that time you spent WTF pwning lowbies due to your superior SP, and not actual game skills, proves you were never that good of gamer to begin with. So the coin can still flip and stand on edge from time to time...rare..but it can happen. I'm all for some kind of progression in a game...but only to a point.
Look at how things worked in Planetside. A brand new player could wtfpwn a vet from time to time...not based on some superficial jacked up skill system that favors the vet always...but because the new player really is a good player. There comes a time when "player skill" should be in the equation. To many of these games are level based and level does not always mean that the other player is good. It just means that they are at level. I don't care how long you've been playing a game. That doesn't give any right to a free "I will always win button"...somewhere the progression has to end to allow others the opportunity to catch up so that they can play on a level playing field. Is it possible to catch up in EVE. Yes...if you are willing to wait a year or more to train the required skills to do it. That is a year plus some months, of $14.99 a month payments to finally be able to compete in EVE at the levels a vast majority of EVE's player base is at. I am sorry in my opinion(and I know many EVE players will disagree), but that is wrong.
That is why a game like WoW is so popular. A new player can level a toon in a couple of months of steady gaming and be a viable force in PvP and not feel like they can never catch up.
EVE is what it is though. It is how the designers made it and now they are pretty much stuck with it. If they change it to drastically and allow new players a means to actually progress faster via actual game play - than yeah...the vets of the game will get all pissy, and bent out of shape and say "that's not fair" - instead of saying, cool...more players to challenge me.
Oh and one last little thing.
If EVE trully was a sandbox, then the game itself should provide the necessary environment to keep people play past getting to level or skill capped. Not saying that EVE doesn't have trading and mining and what not...it does. It also has corps. But those things and more should be what the game is all about...not skilling up and waiting for that proverbial "Skill training complete message." Like I said...what harm is there for a player to get up to speed faster and be able to actual stand a chance in the higher end part of the game sooner? Sereiously...is the player base of EVE scared that a two month old player will actually challenge them in some way and this scares them?
Also!
EVE is one game that takes grinding to a whole new level. Seriously...the difference is the grind is in real time and cost real money. No matter how much time you spend in game eating astroids or fending off other players from your sector of space...you'll never progress further in a skill than is pre-scripted in the games code. At least in games like Aion and L2 and WoW...a player can level at their own pace. In EVE...CCP controls your characters speed of progression...not you.
Well to be honest i see it this way:
to start of, vets cant pawn newcomers unless newcomers go fly into lowsec space, wich would be the same than low level players going to areas where high level players play. This is equal to both pve or pvp. Playing the first couple of months in eve is the same than in any other game: you climb your way up from the safety areas to the the unsafe ones. No veteran player, unless the ship value is worth the risk of getting gunned down by npc police, wich a newcomer cant have, will atack anyone in safe zones. So no big problem here.
Second, the newcomer will surely reach to a point where and if he has skill to do so, can kill a veteran player even if the gap in skill points still makes a huge difference, by the fact that no1 flies the same ship, with the same build, and with the same skills. EVE is a world where not everybody is a combat pilot. Some mine, some trade, some build, some pve, others pvp, and even combat pilots fly for a dedicated task when going out in pvp, ones fly faster, others slower, ones go for close combat others to long range engagement, there are hundreds if not thousands of ship build variations. What i mean by this is that a newcomer can find a veteran flying something that is an ideal target for the ship hes in. This happens in all mmos. So no problem here.
To finish i still cant agree with you when it comes to "catching up" old players. To me you are saying that you have no problem if you take a guy whos been running the marathon for 30kms and he is runing 1st and then you get to the last 100m and you take Bolt to run those last 100m with him and say: "hey whats your problem? you already ran 30km so you afraid of geting on the last 100m with the newcomer"?? May be an exageration, yes i know, but for me thats where i stand when i played WoW for almost 4 years and Blizz says: "hey new expansion. throw all the stuff you busted your chops to have, to the trash. We are starting over. Let ppl speed rape in 2 weeks what took you months to do and lets be happy." Sorry, cant agree.
Of course thats just my 2 cents. Not everyone will agree of course.
Look at how things worked in Planetside. A brand new player could wtfpwn a vet from time to time...not based on some superficial jacked up skill system that favors the vet always...but because the new player really is a good player. There comes a time when "player skill" should be in the equation. "
Are you trying to imply this cannot and does not happen in EVE? Because if so, you're about to be made to look very ignorant at best, if not flat-out dishonest.
Nope, because I once wtfpwned a BS and I was in a Cruiser. ^_^ That was luck! Not skill. Just pure luck. He must have screwed up or something...I got under his guns or he didn't expect me to come in so close as to actually challenge him instead of rolling over and playing dead...or maybe..just maybe he was actually a really bad player.
The only way a new player can actually participate in the end game in a way that I think most people are consider an end game is if they join a corp. The problem is most corps will not even give you a second glance if you have less than 5mil SP. Some won't even take you unless you have 10mil! Tell me that is BS. There is but a couple of exception and that is EVE University and some other...but I heard storis from players that they do not get the help they are promised. ::shrugs::
I played EVE and I earned my BS the hard way and then some. So I know the game.
Jesus. OK whatever, no point arguing this with you.
Originally posted by Teala I played EVE and I earned my BS the hard way and then some. So I know the game.
notsureifserious.jpg
Your grasp on the workings of Eve is feeble at best. Not only are you clueless about pvp, you're clueless about how corp recruitment works, and what an "End Game" is and why the term is completely ridiculous in Eve.
Also, I can't believe you people are having this useless discussion again. You've ground the horse into fine powder now, I hope you're proud.
I played EVE and I earned my BS the hard way and then some. So I know the game.
notsureifserious.jpg
Your grasp on the workings of Eve is feeble at best. Not only are you clueless about pvp, you're clueless about how corp recruitment works, and what an "End Game" is and why the term is completely ridiculous in Eve.
Also, I can't believe you people are having this useless discussion again. You've ground the horse into fine powder now, I hope you're proud.
That horse is a dirty slut and wants to take it one more time
Jesus, not this again. We've seen this discussion at least twenty times. The OP is a pretty obvious troll btw.
Yes, I'm a troll because I have a different opinion than you. What is up with everyone that really has no input pertaining to the thread but yet they still post. I guess you all need your post count to go up!
I had a view/question and I stated it. Right, wrong or indifferent; but this is a forum for EVE discussion and I posted my thoughts.
When I want to fly that new ship NOW, I hate it. When I'm busy and can't play for a couple days, log in, hear "skill training completed"...and can fly that new ship..I like it.
This is exactly my point. You have a goal that you'd like to accomplish but there is nothing you can do to help its progression. You click the button to train a skill and then you log out.
I play to have fun, and my definition of fun is to actually play the game instead of having to do hours/days of mindless farming to level up a certain skill.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
Also, do not listen to the players that have been playing for going on 3+ years as to the fact that you can catch up and play with the people that have been playing 3+ years. The game does not allow you to - ever catch up with those that have been playing for years.
Since I've been reading these forums I've seen you bring up this issue over and over and over again. I've also seen several people explain to you, in great deal, that it doesn't matter.
You can only fly one ship at a time so if a 3+ year vet is running around in a T1 cruiser none of the points he has for battleships is going to help him. If his cruiser is fit with autocannons then none of the skillpoints he has in missiles is going to help him. If you fight him none of the skillpoints he has in trading, manufacturing, inventing, etc are going to help him.
People should also stop obsessing about one-on-one encounters between a vicious vet and a poor newbie...the vast majority of encounters in Eve are in gang or fleet fights where a 1-day-old newbie in a rifter can be just as important as the 3-year-old vet in a T3 cruiser.
Posters who continue to flog this "omg ull never katch up!!!" point are just making themselves look both ignorant and petty.
New players should figure out what they enjoy doing and spend their skills doing that...not worrying that they aren't going to catch up to people when catching up doesn't really matter.
I’m not 100% sure I like the way the skill system works. There is no benefit to log into the game while training skills. I don’t get stronger for killing rats; but I do gain faction for flying missions. I would think that there would be some kind of matrix that would allow trickle down for people that actually play. Some formula that would allow weapon skills to advance while rat hunting or industry skills to go up while mining or basic ship skills to go up while flying from point to point whether it’s to pick up an item or running a courier mission.
What are the incentives to log in verses passively train skills? I can kill rats for meager earnings, run missions for some ISK or mine to try and make some cash. Yes, I know about Loyalty Points for doing missions and dog tags from rat hunting… But what makes me stronger by playing? I’m not asking about richer!
This is what I wrote recently in response to same questions:
Originally posted by Gdemami
The difference and point is, that in EVE you do not have nor need to 'get max level'. The goal isn't to be able to fly every single ship in the game and perform at everything with maximum efficiency. That is what WoW concept is, to progress towards designed goal - level cap. In EVE there is no such goal thus not even progression.
The game works on completely different principles...
Originally posted by Gdemami
In traditional RPG or MMORPG, the whole game revolves around some central part, that is usually story or character advancement.
It has beginning and end. The levels then serves as a metric of your progression towards the end of story or character advancement.
EVE Online does not use this concept. There is no end, there is no progression. Instead, you are offered different paths you can take. Each path represents some task. For each task you need resources. You can obtain the resources via various ways since there is a very large scale of what you will need - that might be ISK, materials, knowledge, players, etc. or in example skill points.
You can look at skill points as no more than resources and each task then require different and limited amount of resources and their composition.
There is more in skill system but the raw concept is something like that.
Does it make more sense now?
If you didn't read it the first time, read it again.
eves skill system is fine, but the lack of dynamic action combat, thats the killer.
lock on
auto fire
whoever had the better fit wins
no crits
no special attacks
no fun
Er, did you take into account transversal velocity in relationship to your target, proper ammo for your target, did you employ any ewar such as tracking disruptors, warp scramblers and the like? How about range, were you able to keep the target in optimal, get under his guns, or properly use drones to great effect?
So many more things to consider in an EVE fight than what you wrote in your post, no wonder you didn't have any fun.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Comments
The OP as the right idea.
As usual the fan came out with their spin tactics, strawmans & facts twisting to defend their precious. They like to confuse people into giving up finding the ugly truth about the game.
Classic!
edit: I know... I shouldn't be here. :P
You cannot confuse ignorant who thinks he is right.
EVE is a complex game. Talking about the skill system takes a bit of a finger stretch and you can already find some great replies to your question here.
CCP knows that if they would take an easier approach on the leveling system they would gain subscribers, but they would lose all the hard core players that have been loyal to the game all these years in existence.
Problem is that CCP doesnt handle player base subscriber as other companies do. They actually listen to community and the general opinion states that skill system is great the way it is. I dont 100% agree, but my opinion on it gauges the 99% thumbs up hehe so im ok with it.
Minor changes are on the way, but nothing relevant.
I have played dozens of MMOs and when it comes to EVE, CCP has my full respect..
Really think that EVE is one of those games that deserved world wide recognition.
EVE is not everyones cup of tea, even I have some gripes with their skilling up system and skill sets in general - which I do. I've written up on EVE on my blog a couple of times and to this day I have a love/dislike relationship with the game. I will say this, despite what others and CCP may claim - EVE is the least new player friendly game you can ever get into. Also, do not listen to the players that have been playing for going on 3+ years as to the fact that you can catch up and play with the people that have been playing 3+ years. The game does not allow you to - ever catch up with those that have been playing for years. If you really think you can go up against a vet and you have only been playing for 6 months or a year...hope you have the ISK to pay for that lost ship. They'll be in fully rigged T2 or T3 ship and have the SP to pilot it. You'll barely be flying a Cruiser or maybe a BS and have T2 guns...but there is no way you'll have maxed out the skills necessary to fly it properly. It takes over a year to train into a BS at the level that is required to be proficient with one....I know this because that is what it took me and I had maxed my training skills out for optimal training of the skills required to get into a BS and pilot it with any kind of proficiency.
To the OP:
Your looking for reasons to log in besides making isk or change skills. Well how about learning to pvp with the ship you use, both solo (if you can find it), and fleet pvp. Learning new ships, how to use, fly and fight. Learning how to scan down an enemy, how to trick them, how to avoid and escape them in turn. PvP not your thing? Learn how to manipulate the market, a great deal of satisfaction can be found in cornering the market on some specific item. Industry, if thats your thing, build ships, modules, etc. Mining, exploring wormholes, running plexes, making drugs, pirating, stealing alliance/corp assets, trading, etc. OMG in 5 years of playing I still haven't done everything, I think its impossible to achieve it all. Thats what makes it fun.
I got to agree with Teala here. 100% truethful post.
But you see Teala theres a flipside to that coin.
How about you play a game for 3/4/5 years only to find out that in the next expansion all you have accomplished gets minimized? You played the game for years and this guy just walks into the new expansion and gets to do all stuff you have done in half the time you spent doing it, easy mode, gets to your level, gets the gear, spanks you and the only difference betweem him and you is some crap tittle above your head or a list of what you´ve done and he hasnt done it yet...but no real impact in the game. No rewarding of the loyal player and the money that he invested in the game. Only MMO i played that feels a tad different about this is WAR and the RR system they use...dont know if there are more examples, but most MMOS follows this recipe.
Now, EVE, plays on an complete different set of principles. You play, you get to grow better, you get to know the game mechanics and you get to pawn any newcomer that dares to cross your way. And when the newcomer gets to be a solid pilot he will have the right to take a shot at you....but not before you play and pay the pain. That feels more real than the your side of the coin wouldnt you agree?
So in your game, its OK for vets to just steamroll new players? OK cool. I gank my share of lowbies. What I find funny is that if you allow a player to actually catch up and he/she comes and takes a shot at you and wins...then that tells me that all that time you spent WTF pwning lowbies due to your superior SP, and not actual game skills, proves you were never that good of gamer to begin with. So the coin can still flip and stand on edge from time to time...rare..but it can happen. I'm all for some kind of progression in a game...but only to a point.
Look at how things worked in Planetside. A brand new player could wtfpwn a vet from time to time...not based on some superficial jacked up skill system that favors the vet always...but because the new player really is a good player. There comes a time when "player skill" should be in the equation. To many of these games are level based and level does not always mean that the other player is good. It just means that they are at level. I don't care how long you've been playing a game. That doesn't give any right to a free "I will always win button"...somewhere the progression has to end to allow others the opportunity to catch up so that they can play on a level playing field. Is it possible to catch up in EVE. Yes...if you are willing to wait a year or more to train the required skills to do it. That is a year plus some months, of $14.99 a month payments to finally be able to compete in EVE at the levels a vast majority of EVE's player base is at. I am sorry in my opinion(and I know many EVE players will disagree), but that is wrong.
That is why a game like WoW is so popular. A new player can level a toon in a couple of months of steady gaming and be a viable force in PvP and not feel like they can never catch up.
EVE is what it is though. It is how the designers made it and now they are pretty much stuck with it. If they change it to drastically and allow new players a means to actually progress faster via actual game play - than yeah...the vets of the game will get all pissy, and bent out of shape and say "that's not fair" - instead of saying, cool...more players to challenge me.
Oh and one last little thing.
If EVE trully was a sandbox, then the game itself should provide the necessary environment to keep people play past getting to level or skill capped. Not saying that EVE doesn't have trading and mining and what not...it does. It also has corps. But those things and more should be what the game is all about...not skilling up and waiting for that proverbial "Skill training complete message." Like I said...what harm is there for a player to get up to speed faster and be able to actual stand a chance in the higher end part of the game sooner? Sereiously...is the player base of EVE scared that a two month old player will actually challenge them in some way and this scares them?
Also!
EVE is one game that takes grinding to a whole new level. Seriously...the difference is the grind is in real time and cost real money. No matter how much time you spend in game eating astroids or fending off other players from your sector of space...you'll never progress further in a skill than is pre-scripted in the games code. At least in games like Aion and L2 and WoW...a player can level at their own pace. In EVE...CCP controls your characters speed of progression...not you.
Eve does not hold your hand and tell you how your character is going to progress over a predefined set of levels. Also measuring Eve on a 1 vs 1 basis does not seem in any way fair. If a new pilot wants what quite a few people feel like is more of an advanced/mature gaming experience all thye need to do is find a good 0.0 corp. You can join and learn gang/fleet tactics and end up joining in on battles even with a frigate that you can be flying well fairly quickly and even more so once they patch the learning skills.
The learning skill patch will give newcomers quite a boost the vets did not have. And measuring 1 pilot against another just does not do the game justice. It is about joining a corp to get help with learning and getting the experiences you are looking for by teaming up with the vets to take out other gangs and fleets of ships instead of worrying about trying to take out 1 vet. If you are looking for a solo experience where yuo can grind your way to a level playing field in days/weeks/months to be on a level playing field with folks that have been playing for years you will not find it in Eve. If you are willing to join a good corp and learn you can take part in the same battles the vets do easily within a month or 2 just don't expect to be doing it by yourself.
The learning curve is steep but it is lessened with making friends and learning from them instead of going from site to site and tying to read it all. Eve is a game where if you are willing to play well with others you can have the same experiences as those that have been playing for years by flying with them. Eventually your skills will get up to where you can fit a fly the ship you want well. But you are right there is no predefined course that will put you in a capital ship in a month like you can grind out in other games. You can have the same combat/game experiences tho as the long term players by joining their corp/team and being a part of the bigger picture and simply training the skills you want and getting into the role you want to fill. But there are many other objectives you can reach over the course of your playing Eve than having your hand held to the max level at which time you become competitiive 1 on 1 with other folks. Most other games then become eiher a PvP battle or a dungeon grind for more gear instead of having the vast amounts of options that eve gives you to further your gaming experience.
Eve is not a grind leavels till you have determined you have beat the game kind of game. It is join a corp and make friends and have fun with those friends as you skill up to enjoy what the game has to offer. It is a more diverse experience than a game that takes you by the hand says here is the max level/end goal go for it and you will more or less have the same experience getting there as every other single person playing the game.
Eve is a more rewarding experience for those willing to work with others to find what they find enjoyable instead of having to grind levels. Folks feel like Eve is more of a grind then other games but you arn't grinding for levels or end game you are putting the needed work in for what you find to be fun or want to accomplish with your gaming experience instead of playing another game that is going to tell you what that is before you ever start playing.
The 'never catch up' argument is pretty ridiculous...
In level grinding systems, you will never catch up to no-lifers who have more time to spent with the game.
In micro-transaction systems, you will never catch up to fat wallets who have more money to spent on the game.
Real-time skill system is the only system that treats everyone the same and given point in time, you will have equal amount of skill points as everyone else.
There is one really, really good reason for the skill-based learning: subscriptions! When you get a skill that takes 2 weeks to train, and the next one is 3-4 weeks, CCP is guaranteed your sub if you want to fully train it. And the thing is that you don't need to log in to progress in skills. So it's like Progress Quest....but you pay for it.
Bring on the flames baby!
insanex
Jesus, not this again. We've seen this discussion at least twenty times. The OP is a pretty obvious troll btw.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
Why do you train those skills if you dont want to use them?
Give me liberty or give me lasers
"Originally posted by Teala
Look at how things worked in Planetside. A brand new player could wtfpwn a vet from time to time...not based on some superficial jacked up skill system that favors the vet always...but because the new player really is a good player. There comes a time when "player skill" should be in the equation. "
Are you trying to imply this cannot and does not happen in EVE? Because if so, you're about to be made to look very ignorant at best, if not flat-out dishonest.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
QFT +1
Nope, because I once wtfpwned a BS and I was in a Cruiser. ^_^ That was luck! Not skill. Just pure luck. He must have screwed up or something...I got under his guns or he didn't expect me to come in so close as to actually challenge him instead of rolling over and playing dead...or maybe..just maybe he was actually a really bad player.
The only way a new player can actually participate in the end game in a way that I think most people are consider an end game is if they join a corp. The problem is most corps will not even give you a second glance if you have less than 5mil SP. Some won't even take you unless you have 10mil! Tell me that is BS. There is but a couple of exception and that is EVE University and some other...but I heard storis from players that they do not get the help they are promised. ::shrugs::
I played EVE and I earned my BS the hard way and then some. So I know the game.
Well to be honest i see it this way:
to start of, vets cant pawn newcomers unless newcomers go fly into lowsec space, wich would be the same than low level players going to areas where high level players play. This is equal to both pve or pvp. Playing the first couple of months in eve is the same than in any other game: you climb your way up from the safety areas to the the unsafe ones. No veteran player, unless the ship value is worth the risk of getting gunned down by npc police, wich a newcomer cant have, will atack anyone in safe zones. So no big problem here.
Second, the newcomer will surely reach to a point where and if he has skill to do so, can kill a veteran player even if the gap in skill points still makes a huge difference, by the fact that no1 flies the same ship, with the same build, and with the same skills. EVE is a world where not everybody is a combat pilot. Some mine, some trade, some build, some pve, others pvp, and even combat pilots fly for a dedicated task when going out in pvp, ones fly faster, others slower, ones go for close combat others to long range engagement, there are hundreds if not thousands of ship build variations. What i mean by this is that a newcomer can find a veteran flying something that is an ideal target for the ship hes in. This happens in all mmos. So no problem here.
To finish i still cant agree with you when it comes to "catching up" old players. To me you are saying that you have no problem if you take a guy whos been running the marathon for 30kms and he is runing 1st and then you get to the last 100m and you take Bolt to run those last 100m with him and say: "hey whats your problem? you already ran 30km so you afraid of geting on the last 100m with the newcomer"?? May be an exageration, yes i know, but for me thats where i stand when i played WoW for almost 4 years and Blizz says: "hey new expansion. throw all the stuff you busted your chops to have, to the trash. We are starting over. Let ppl speed rape in 2 weeks what took you months to do and lets be happy." Sorry, cant agree.
Of course thats just my 2 cents. Not everyone will agree of course.
Jesus. OK whatever, no point arguing this with you.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
notsureifserious.jpg
Your grasp on the workings of Eve is feeble at best. Not only are you clueless about pvp, you're clueless about how corp recruitment works, and what an "End Game" is and why the term is completely ridiculous in Eve.
Also, I can't believe you people are having this useless discussion again. You've ground the horse into fine powder now, I hope you're proud.
That horse is a dirty slut and wants to take it one more time
Give me liberty or give me lasers
Yes, I'm a troll because I have a different opinion than you. What is up with everyone that really has no input pertaining to the thread but yet they still post. I guess you all need your post count to go up!
I had a view/question and I stated it. Right, wrong or indifferent; but this is a forum for EVE discussion and I posted my thoughts.
I play to have fun, and my definition of fun is to actually play the game instead of having to do hours/days of mindless farming to level up a certain skill.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
Since I've been reading these forums I've seen you bring up this issue over and over and over again. I've also seen several people explain to you, in great deal, that it doesn't matter.
You can only fly one ship at a time so if a 3+ year vet is running around in a T1 cruiser none of the points he has for battleships is going to help him. If his cruiser is fit with autocannons then none of the skillpoints he has in missiles is going to help him. If you fight him none of the skillpoints he has in trading, manufacturing, inventing, etc are going to help him.
People should also stop obsessing about one-on-one encounters between a vicious vet and a poor newbie...the vast majority of encounters in Eve are in gang or fleet fights where a 1-day-old newbie in a rifter can be just as important as the 3-year-old vet in a T3 cruiser.
Posters who continue to flog this "omg ull never katch up!!!" point are just making themselves look both ignorant and petty.
New players should figure out what they enjoy doing and spend their skills doing that...not worrying that they aren't going to catch up to people when catching up doesn't really matter.
eves skill system is fine, but the lack of dynamic action combat, thats the killer.
lock on
auto fire
whoever had the better fit wins
no crits
no special attacks
no fun
If you didn't read it the first time, read it again.
This is not a game.
Er, did you take into account transversal velocity in relationship to your target, proper ammo for your target, did you employ any ewar such as tracking disruptors, warp scramblers and the like? How about range, were you able to keep the target in optimal, get under his guns, or properly use drones to great effect?
So many more things to consider in an EVE fight than what you wrote in your post, no wonder you didn't have any fun.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon