This notion that you need a sandbox game is ludicrous!!! The idea that even in PnP games a DM would let players destroy (for ever and ever) something they spent Hours, designing and populating is beyond stupid.
Many of you will poo-poo this idea but the biggest issue with MMORPGs is the idea that they need PvP. These games are supposed to be about working together to overcome obstacles, not comparing johnson-size while the world falls apart around you. And because MMORPGs incorporated the Duke Nukem mentality, they are dividing their resources and not making the best games. MMORPG's are essentially Germany in WWII fighting a two front war and destined to fail. If you do not learn from history you are doomed to repeat it's mistakes.
You don't understand sandbox games or pnp games apparently. Sandbox games are not about destroying everything and if your DM doesn't offer you more then one path to complete their campaign they really didn't put much thought into it.
For me I see this as a two fold problem. One the development focus of current MMO's is to get the largest population playing your game possible. To do that you have to cater to the lowest common denominator which is the casual/solo player. Community building happens when we must coe together in order to advance and survive in the MMO world. Look at EQ when it launched soloing was not an issue because doin it was suicide. It was a neccessity to find other to play with in order to survive the world whic really will help foster a helthy community of players.
The second is MMO's developed today tend to have a lot of developer hand holding going on to guide you through the game and attempt to maximiz your progress. Why explore when you are guaranteed to see about everything anyway by just following the quest chains. I remember when I first played SWG and a guy came up to me for direction to Jabba's Palace. I gave him the coordinates, but you see he had to ask another player not an NPC. Developers need to let the leash out a little bit and let the community help itself out.
I think I could reclaim some of my magic if a mmo would allow me to really create my own character. I loved creating my characters in UO. Sure there were builds that were "the best" so there were a bunch of clones in that regard but I could play around and see what was "the best" for me. Theme park world, sandbox character design, optional pvp and I think I'd be pretty happy.
MMOs have not lost their magic. What is occuring is nothing short of poor planning and design. Everyone is trying to create something "new", a new feature, or design. Unfortunately, they fail because they do not pull features and experiences from successfull MMOs, WOW.
The common failings I have seen are this:
1. Sparcely populated zones: I see a trend where the game mechanis are moving towards a single world with multiple instances. They say its a "feature" because there are no "worlds" and therefore a truley global chat system. However, when you have instances with only 20 people its hardly MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER. The game starts to feel like a single player RPG (champions for example).
2. Roleless classes: In order to create more "versatile" characters and attract "casual" gamers developers are moving to a class system devoid of roles, or just as bad, all roles are available for any class. Sure, you have a toon that can do essentially anything is very independent. However, such a system is devoid of any incentive to group. That social experience and reward that comes from being part of a team, of playing a role, of being uniquely important, is lost. The only thing that seperates your toon from others is a costume or avatar customization.
3. Easy Gameplay: If developers move to easy combat systems and non-strategic fights they essentially wind up creating an action RPG. Such a game will not hold anyones interest long. Complex boss fights are what makes WOW truly unique and successfull. Gamers take PRIDE in downing a boss. It becomes an accomplishment. (this is my fear with DC, combat too simple).
Those are the issues that come to mind immediately anyway.
The ERA of the MMORPG has in a sense come to an end. Those of us that got our feet wet at inception have accepted this regardless of if we try a new game title or not. At a time folks were amused with level progression but more so with the social element that once existed that no longer does today.
Why? The general concept of MMO's is boring. Get a quest, go get , return and do over and over and over. Being that the social element no longer exists and isn't required at all that simply makes the games boring. I'm going back to playing single player games that actually have a story behind them and are more then rinse and repeat dead story lines that nobody really cares about as well as human element games like COD, etc of old. Log on with friends and play if you will.
DAOC was the perfect MMO. PVE with PVP. Once you reached max level you could play the human/social element in defending the realm 24/7 if you wanted. The human element/storyline is far greater then any concept somebody thinks up and its ever changing. The PVE element is the same in every game. PVE doesnt have the ability to change like people do.
As i set here thinking and i suppose dreaming of the next best thing i can say their won't be any. The big thing that once defined MMO's *social networking* has been replaced with sites like Facebook.com. The trend in social gaming will be closely linked to Social Networking websites ideally tailored to individual preferences. Yeah custom gaming if you will.
Teala.. I hknow that game.. Infact I have most of it sitting here on my desktop in files and drawings.. It has ALL that you asked for, because it's the same thing Iv'e wanted for years, and more.. I designed a mmo with a persistant changing world that the community determines if a city thrives or dives, a community that has an effect who they are allied with and not.. A mmo that has dynamic events both for PvP and PvE.. A mmo that have primary focus on player economy.. A game that focuses on the open world events and action, not just sitting in a city waiting for the next queue.. Zzzz
Problem is, that game is mine that I've worked on for years.. and even contacted 2 MMO companies to see about making it a reality.. It's been 6 months and no replies.. Not even a "ty but no ty"....... Which goes to show me how professional they are.. Not even the common courtesy of a TY response.. At this point I give up on MMO's.. It's more about playing "their themepark" rpg and paying a monthly sub..
Teala.. I hknow that game.. Infact I have most of it sitting here on my desktop in files and drawings.. It has ALL that you asked for, because it's the same thing Iv'e wanted for years, and more.. I designed a mmo with a persistant changing world that the community determines if a city thrives or dives, a community that has an effect who they are allied with and not.. A mmo that has dynamic events both for PvP and PvE.. A mmo that have primary focus on player economy.. A game that focuses on the open world events and action, not just sitting in a city waiting for the next queue.. Zzzz
Problem is, that game is mine that I've worked on for years.. and even contacted 2 MMO companies to see about making it a reality.. It's been 6 months and no replies.. Not even a "ty but no ty"....... Which goes to show me how professional they are.. Not even the common courtesy of a TY response.. At this point I give up on MMO's.. It's more about playing "their themepark" rpg and paying a monthly sub..
Just going to quote this out of hilarity.
On topic: Think it is because we grew up. My first game was Pacman and boy did that thing look/play awesome.
But now? ehh... its an old-school classic.
MMOs had their misteps but now I think there are the 'popular' way (make the game accessible) and the 'niche' (make the game more real(?)) way with not many variation inbetween. Then again I think FF14 tried to be the middle of the road type and ended up being neither.
Gdemami - Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
some beaten topic, but well, MMOs try too hard being single player games is my main problem with them, especially since they are crap at it in its very nature, even now in RIFT I d wish they had made the first 20 levels an offline tutorial - even if actually enjoy the story...and for the most parts liveable that you fight over spawns with 20 other peeps.
just a waste of time most of these games to have made them MMOs instead of saving their money and just released a single player game, with lobby battlegrounds/raids, and ensure solo encounters actually were just alittle bit challanging, give something to think about, even if just for a second...but then couldnt charge 15$/month could you.
MMOs are boring singleplayer games the end....and still all new MMOs focus on making the singleplayer part better, since tbh almost no one want to play "a real" MMO.
Teala.. I hknow that game.. Infact I have most of it sitting here on my desktop in files and drawings.. It has ALL that you asked for, because it's the same thing Iv'e wanted for years, and more.. I designed a mmo with a persistant changing world that the community determines if a city thrives or dives, a community that has an effect who they are allied with and not.. A mmo that has dynamic events both for PvP and PvE.. A mmo that have primary focus on player economy.. A game that focuses on the open world events and action, not just sitting in a city waiting for the next queue.. Zzzz
Problem is, that game is mine that I've worked on for years.. and even contacted 2 MMO companies to see about making it a reality.. It's been 6 months and no replies.. Not even a "ty but no ty"....... Which goes to show me how professional they are.. Not even the common courtesy of a TY response.. At this point I give up on MMO's.. It's more about playing "their themepark" rpg and paying a monthly sub..
Don't feel bad, its likely they didn't even read past the opening sentence once they realized what it was about. Understand that they may be already developing games with concepts contained in your communication, and at some point once they released you might go back on them saying they stole your ideas.
I recall a story about a guy who did a really professional presentation for a game idea and tried to present it to Blizzard, but they wouldn't even let him in the front door once they realized what he was trying to do. In this litigous society companies have to protect themselves at all time and rarely are going to warm up to unsolictated contributors.
No,if you really want to build that game you're going to either have to secure your own investment team (or use your own cash until you can find some, see Darkfall) or go to work for a development house and work your way up the food chain until you've got enough credibility to get someone to listen to your ideas. (you'll have more luck with a smaller studio than a large one)
Back to the OP, I agree, some of that lost magic feel comes from it being your first one or two MMO's and as mentioned by Rockgod, if you take a break from the genre or type (like switch to space themes for a while) the magic does come back (i'm playing Dragon Age Empires and although its single player its sure fun to swing a two handed sword once again)
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Some previous posters have approached this thought, but I'm going to expand on it a bit. Most of the MMOs on the market are using the same tired formula.
I think it's not magic that we are missing, but innovation. Wow, when it launched, EQ back in the day, Fallen Earth and a host of other killer titles were great, each in their own way, but let's face it, you can only bring youself to enter that instance or raid one more time before you throw up a little in you mouth. An endless list of alts killing that same dang spider leads to finding a different game.
What sets a timeless masterpiece novel apart from a dime novel are the the same things that differentiate MMOs. Redundancy, although it sells, is not what sets the great works of art apart, and yes, I consider games works of art. From the design to the story, to the execution. We don't need a WoW killer, we need something differnt from Wow. We don't need another EQ copy, we need an original idea, and unfortunetly, those are in short supply these days. What we are getting at the moment is crap churned out in nice boxes because it is what is selling. 2 short year developments on recycled engines based however loosely on popular IPs is what is selling.
But don't give up hope. There are hills and valleys. Games as well as life is cyclical. Rift or SWToR, GW2, or whatever may be just the best dang thing we've ever put on our hard drives. Maybe I'm wrong and the next generation on MMO's will be on Xbox Kenect and will suck, but at least it will be different, at least it would be innovative.
I'm keeping my eyes open on GW2 and SWTOR.. So far GW2 is my main focus.. I'm tired of games that require me to have a whole army or alts based on what level of friends or guildies I'm playing with.. Grrrrr How FREAKING annoying that crap was and is.. Blizzard, if you are listening.. ALLOW mentoring you numnuts.. LOL How are you suppose to help new friends or guildies on their level 30 toons, when you have NO alts at that level.. But I'm sure there will be Blizfans that will come running in saying I'm crazy.. lol Anyways.. GW2 allowing encounters to be scaled is going to be welcomed.. I love the mentoring in EQ2 and CoX.. SWG did a great job with allowing vets to play with noobs too..
GW2 is also going to bring to the table of scaling raids based on raid size.. SWEET.. no more 10/25 limit BS.. IF a boss pops in the open world and 20 people are fighting it.. and 10 more show up.. the boss auto adjust to the raid size of 30 and problem solved This should be interesting.. I wouldn't be surprised tho if it didn't have a few bugs at launch tho..
Here's to hoping for new innovative social MMO's on the horizon
Comments
You don't understand sandbox games or pnp games apparently. Sandbox games are not about destroying everything and if your DM doesn't offer you more then one path to complete their campaign they really didn't put much thought into it.
For me I see this as a two fold problem. One the development focus of current MMO's is to get the largest population playing your game possible. To do that you have to cater to the lowest common denominator which is the casual/solo player. Community building happens when we must coe together in order to advance and survive in the MMO world. Look at EQ when it launched soloing was not an issue because doin it was suicide. It was a neccessity to find other to play with in order to survive the world whic really will help foster a helthy community of players.
The second is MMO's developed today tend to have a lot of developer hand holding going on to guide you through the game and attempt to maximiz your progress. Why explore when you are guaranteed to see about everything anyway by just following the quest chains. I remember when I first played SWG and a guy came up to me for direction to Jabba's Palace. I gave him the coordinates, but you see he had to ask another player not an NPC. Developers need to let the leash out a little bit and let the community help itself out.
Yes it happened several years ago.
An honest review of SW:TOR 6/10 (Danny Wojcicki)
Ok the truth is the magic was gone for me 2 years ago.
Now i can only speak from my opnion , and i am not blaiming anyone or any product .
Sorry even now , on this forum i can easily see there are bunch of burnout people like me .
Even in the post posted here , we all seem to be suffering from a lack of community .
The change of that , is not a product sorry thats taking the easy way , the change is us .
Come on people be realistc , I am burnout to the core , but doesn´t stop the people in my guild from really keep on loving me.
I log in for them , they log in for me .. thus isn´t that what a old community did for eachother ?
So at what point do i say , F it i am not having fun , isn´t that the point I changed ?
Even today i logged in , and i did a random event pug , i couldn´t even get my quest before a idiot charged in .
On my worst day in the past i would have stayed finished it and smile , today i just F it , and left the group .
See my own reasonable tolerance has gone down a lot , no matter the excuse , no matter the experience .
It did start with me , maybe in the past , i would have said something like .
Yo dude can you wait up a bit ? i mean we are not in rush are we ?
Today i cannot even arssed to say those things , think its totally unrespectfull for people to be just playing for themself in a team setting .
Maybe i changed or the society changed maybe both , but i think maybe i changed too much .
I think I could reclaim some of my magic if a mmo would allow me to really create my own character. I loved creating my characters in UO. Sure there were builds that were "the best" so there were a bunch of clones in that regard but I could play around and see what was "the best" for me. Theme park world, sandbox character design, optional pvp and I think I'd be pretty happy.
MMOs have not lost their magic. What is occuring is nothing short of poor planning and design. Everyone is trying to create something "new", a new feature, or design. Unfortunately, they fail because they do not pull features and experiences from successfull MMOs, WOW.
The common failings I have seen are this:
1. Sparcely populated zones: I see a trend where the game mechanis are moving towards a single world with multiple instances. They say its a "feature" because there are no "worlds" and therefore a truley global chat system. However, when you have instances with only 20 people its hardly MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER. The game starts to feel like a single player RPG (champions for example).
2. Roleless classes: In order to create more "versatile" characters and attract "casual" gamers developers are moving to a class system devoid of roles, or just as bad, all roles are available for any class. Sure, you have a toon that can do essentially anything is very independent. However, such a system is devoid of any incentive to group. That social experience and reward that comes from being part of a team, of playing a role, of being uniquely important, is lost. The only thing that seperates your toon from others is a costume or avatar customization.
3. Easy Gameplay: If developers move to easy combat systems and non-strategic fights they essentially wind up creating an action RPG. Such a game will not hold anyones interest long. Complex boss fights are what makes WOW truly unique and successfull. Gamers take PRIDE in downing a boss. It becomes an accomplishment. (this is my fear with DC, combat too simple).
Those are the issues that come to mind immediately anyway.
The ERA of the MMORPG has in a sense come to an end. Those of us that got our feet wet at inception have accepted this regardless of if we try a new game title or not. At a time folks were amused with level progression but more so with the social element that once existed that no longer does today.
Why? The general concept of MMO's is boring. Get a quest, go get , return and do over and over and over. Being that the social element no longer exists and isn't required at all that simply makes the games boring. I'm going back to playing single player games that actually have a story behind them and are more then rinse and repeat dead story lines that nobody really cares about as well as human element games like COD, etc of old. Log on with friends and play if you will.
DAOC was the perfect MMO. PVE with PVP. Once you reached max level you could play the human/social element in defending the realm 24/7 if you wanted. The human element/storyline is far greater then any concept somebody thinks up and its ever changing. The PVE element is the same in every game. PVE doesnt have the ability to change like people do.
As i set here thinking and i suppose dreaming of the next best thing i can say their won't be any. The big thing that once defined MMO's *social networking* has been replaced with sites like Facebook.com. The trend in social gaming will be closely linked to Social Networking websites ideally tailored to individual preferences. Yeah custom gaming if you will.
Teala.. I hknow that game.. Infact I have most of it sitting here on my desktop in files and drawings.. It has ALL that you asked for, because it's the same thing Iv'e wanted for years, and more.. I designed a mmo with a persistant changing world that the community determines if a city thrives or dives, a community that has an effect who they are allied with and not.. A mmo that has dynamic events both for PvP and PvE.. A mmo that have primary focus on player economy.. A game that focuses on the open world events and action, not just sitting in a city waiting for the next queue.. Zzzz
Problem is, that game is mine that I've worked on for years.. and even contacted 2 MMO companies to see about making it a reality.. It's been 6 months and no replies.. Not even a "ty but no ty"....... Which goes to show me how professional they are.. Not even the common courtesy of a TY response.. At this point I give up on MMO's.. It's more about playing "their themepark" rpg and paying a monthly sub..
Just going to quote this out of hilarity.
On topic: Think it is because we grew up. My first game was Pacman and boy did that thing look/play awesome.
But now? ehh... its an old-school classic.
MMOs had their misteps but now I think there are the 'popular' way (make the game accessible) and the 'niche' (make the game more real(?)) way with not many variation inbetween. Then again I think FF14 tried to be the middle of the road type and ended up being neither.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
some beaten topic, but well, MMOs try too hard being single player games is my main problem with them, especially since they are crap at it in its very nature, even now in RIFT I d wish they had made the first 20 levels an offline tutorial - even if actually enjoy the story...and for the most parts liveable that you fight over spawns with 20 other peeps.
just a waste of time most of these games to have made them MMOs instead of saving their money and just released a single player game, with lobby battlegrounds/raids, and ensure solo encounters actually were just alittle bit challanging, give something to think about, even if just for a second...but then couldnt charge 15$/month could you.
MMOs are boring singleplayer games the end....and still all new MMOs focus on making the singleplayer part better, since tbh almost no one want to play "a real" MMO.
Don't feel bad, its likely they didn't even read past the opening sentence once they realized what it was about. Understand that they may be already developing games with concepts contained in your communication, and at some point once they released you might go back on them saying they stole your ideas.
I recall a story about a guy who did a really professional presentation for a game idea and tried to present it to Blizzard, but they wouldn't even let him in the front door once they realized what he was trying to do. In this litigous society companies have to protect themselves at all time and rarely are going to warm up to unsolictated contributors.
No,if you really want to build that game you're going to either have to secure your own investment team (or use your own cash until you can find some, see Darkfall) or go to work for a development house and work your way up the food chain until you've got enough credibility to get someone to listen to your ideas. (you'll have more luck with a smaller studio than a large one)
Back to the OP, I agree, some of that lost magic feel comes from it being your first one or two MMO's and as mentioned by Rockgod, if you take a break from the genre or type (like switch to space themes for a while) the magic does come back (i'm playing Dragon Age Empires and although its single player its sure fun to swing a two handed sword once again)
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Some previous posters have approached this thought, but I'm going to expand on it a bit. Most of the MMOs on the market are using the same tired formula.
I think it's not magic that we are missing, but innovation. Wow, when it launched, EQ back in the day, Fallen Earth and a host of other killer titles were great, each in their own way, but let's face it, you can only bring youself to enter that instance or raid one more time before you throw up a little in you mouth. An endless list of alts killing that same dang spider leads to finding a different game.
What sets a timeless masterpiece novel apart from a dime novel are the the same things that differentiate MMOs. Redundancy, although it sells, is not what sets the great works of art apart, and yes, I consider games works of art. From the design to the story, to the execution. We don't need a WoW killer, we need something differnt from Wow. We don't need another EQ copy, we need an original idea, and unfortunetly, those are in short supply these days. What we are getting at the moment is crap churned out in nice boxes because it is what is selling. 2 short year developments on recycled engines based however loosely on popular IPs is what is selling.
But don't give up hope. There are hills and valleys. Games as well as life is cyclical. Rift or SWToR, GW2, or whatever may be just the best dang thing we've ever put on our hard drives. Maybe I'm wrong and the next generation on MMO's will be on Xbox Kenect and will suck, but at least it will be different, at least it would be innovative.
Lets hope so Ex..
I'm keeping my eyes open on GW2 and SWTOR.. So far GW2 is my main focus.. I'm tired of games that require me to have a whole army or alts based on what level of friends or guildies I'm playing with.. Grrrrr How FREAKING annoying that crap was and is.. Blizzard, if you are listening.. ALLOW mentoring you numnuts.. LOL How are you suppose to help new friends or guildies on their level 30 toons, when you have NO alts at that level.. But I'm sure there will be Blizfans that will come running in saying I'm crazy.. lol Anyways.. GW2 allowing encounters to be scaled is going to be welcomed.. I love the mentoring in EQ2 and CoX.. SWG did a great job with allowing vets to play with noobs too..
GW2 is also going to bring to the table of scaling raids based on raid size.. SWEET.. no more 10/25 limit BS.. IF a boss pops in the open world and 20 people are fighting it.. and 10 more show up.. the boss auto adjust to the raid size of 30 and problem solved
This should be interesting.. I wouldn't be surprised tho if it didn't have a few bugs at launch tho..
Here's to hoping for new innovative social MMO's on the horizon