It's not the MMOs that changed, it's the people that play them.
Yes and no. Newer MMOs are designed to cater to the wants of newer MMO players. PvP is such a "selling point" in modern MMOs because the modern MMOer is, typically, a convert from online shooters and thinks that "the only reason to play an online game is to humiliate someone over the internet". I've been told as such by an ex guildie from Guild Wars. The focus shifted from community building to community factioning. That was a large factor in why I started playing LotRO last year. PvP is, essentially, almost non-existant and everyone works towards a common aim. Granted, that's because of how Tolkien's lore is written, but it was the main appeal. Nevertheless, I find it refreshing to be playing a game where I can go at my own pace and am not forced to deal with level-capped toons harassing my lowbie in a hub town, chanting "dual me fagit" and calling me some other such offensive name for refusing to enter a fight I could never win.
EQ1 or UO were a lot more PvP focused than any of today's game. Half of those "dual me fagit" people will tell you about they been "pwning noobs since uo". Again, blaming the "modernity" for PvP is not the answer.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
Just cause past games these days are old and "nostalgic" doesn't make them any better. Rather take my time and play something casually socializing with friends then to be an uptight elitest twat who thinks a game like EQ1 is better just cause ooooo it's oooold.
Wow, just.....wow.
You realize you're coming off as an elitest jerk yourself with that rambling? Pot, meet kettle.
IMO the older games were better. I was there and I am here now playing the current offering of MMO's and that's simply my opinion. How is that being elitest again?
lol...Einherjar_LC, I think you made Erstok's point better than he did...
Yeah, I'm elitist for stating my own personal opinion(hence the IMO) on a thread about the older games, and the genre's roots.
You got me and so did he....
/thread
Einherjar_LC says: WTB the true successor to UO or Asheron's Call pst!
To me, the veteran mmo players are being segratated because of the new design and philosophy of the new age of mmos.
There's no such thing as a "veteran player". There are people who have played for a while, nothing more. However, the real issue here isn't that "veteran players" are being segregated, but that there are some people who can't move on and deal with modern reality. It's like old farts who like Model T cars. Those aren't "veteran drivers" who are being "segregated from the new design and philosophy of the new age of automobiles." They're people who can't keep up with the times.
MMOs, like it or not, have moved on without you. I'm a "veteran player" too, but I'm not stuck in the past. I no longer play those old games. I left for a reason. So did just about everyone else. Your turn.
I am a veteran MMO player of 10 years and more than 30 MMOs. I wholeheartedly disagree with pretty much everything you have to say and think you are completely off-base. The ideas you state "Challenge, Community, Longevity, Exploration" are excellent ideas. The examples and reasoning you provide to differentiate the "old" games from "new" are nowhere near reality.
A: Challenge/Strategy --- Simply speaking I am not talking about player min and maxes (linear combat). I am talking about non linear combat where the AI adapts to your actions in combat. Where you don't have access to all of your abilities at one time. Where a player must think and become a tactician to outwit and out perform their opposition. The combat pace of this philosophy will be along the lines of medium. Medium combat pace is not fast nor slow. Combat pace can be fast or slow depending on the wisdom of the player using the combat mechanics. There should be a nice consistent flow of player input.
In my experience, modern MMOs have by FAR much better AI and require much more strategy than old ones. In the old days if you brought 50 people and beat on a mob for 3 hours it died, no strategy required. Today's better require specific classes performing to the best of their abilitity and combining their skills with others in the group in order to defeat encounters. Old games come nowhere close.
I believe you misunderstood my basis here. I should of been more clear. Old school mmo combat mechanics were linear however, the player still had to somewhat be wise in different situations to come out on top. I did mention that it needs to keep it's principles and blend them with some innovative ideas. This part of the article should of been about the innovation of AI to combat mechanics. Each should complement each other to give a more meaningful, strategic gameplay. I hope you can see the intent now I was trying to protray.
B: Community --- This entity of game design is being negated. Mmo's are becoming instanced lobbies where solo gameplay is rewarded as opposed to grouping gameplay. There are many aspects that could strengthen a community. Grouping is one major aspect. Forced grouping is one attribute that has helped community. However, I don't believe in forced grouping nor strickly solo content. I believe you should have the option to do either.
However, grouping should be immensly rewarded versus solo content. Penalties can tie into community vigor because it helps players work together so they can muff those penalties. Grouping enhances a server reputation which is a good and bad thing. This works well because you know who to group with and who not to group with.
Instancing and solo play hve nothing to do with it. Older games like AO were full on instancing and solo content and still had amazing communities. Today's games with the best communities like LoTRO and EVE use instancing technology and plenty of solo content. Games with no instancing like Vanguard or terrible solo content like AION still manage to have terrible communities.
Vanguard was not meant for solo content eventhough it was available. Vanguard attempted to use these four principles. It' didn't fail because of that. It failed because of a bad launch and lack of accessiblity to put on older machines. Actually solo deterrant gameplay and instances does play a roll. WoW is the best example. Throughout the leveling progression towards gameplay you'd find that many more players didn't know how to play thier class nor act in a group towards end game content. I don't mean to completely omit solo content, it shoud be there always. However, again if you read it, I clearly stated that grouping content should be rewarded more than the solo content. Atferall, it's an mmorpg.
C: Longevity --- This one may not please many but it's not what your thinking. I am talking about down time between combat. Where players can take strides within their adventures and take breaks. Longevity also enchances the community principle because in down time you can converse within your group. Who knows, you may find a good friend. I still have some good friends I still keep in touch with from EQ because of grouping.
Longevity also can be considered on how long it takes you to progress to "end game". I would propose that the majority of verterian mmo gamers are not there to race to the end game but rather enjoy the journey.
I've always prefered games with a lack of downtime and have never had an issue talking with groupmates. I'd go as far as to say that "veteran players" tend to actually know how to type and can do it while out adventuring. Now, whne it comes having things OTHER than combat, such as social proferssion and need to interact with them - yes this is important for community. But having to wait 5 minutes between every gnoll kill is simply not fun and has nothing to do with being a veteran.
I didn't use specifics and again I think you didn't comprehend my intent here. It seems your basing this all off assumption. I didn't state after every pull is down time. I actually said "strides within their adventure". That would mean going full throtle for a good hour before any break or conversing off topic can take place. I would agree, downtime can be tedious but downtime should be solely determined by player basis.
Exploration --- There has been some titles that focused on exploration. Instances are blighting the exploration of mmo worlds. However, I do see the other side of the coin where instances are a good thing. If I had to choose, and speak for the veteran community, instances should be omitted because it takes away from the immersion of the world. Instances also create contingencies for players to feel like after a few runs they have to blow through it. Makes it feel more like a job rather than a dangerious dungeon that should be explored.
Another aspect is exterior exploration. I truly believe a huge seamless world should be the standard for world building. This captivates the player to feel as if they are in a world. A lot of mmo titles are failing to make the world alive and enriched with lore. Veterian players love to feel rewarded for exploration.
Again, instancing has nothing to with it. Some of the best worlds in modern MMOs (again, LoTRO comes to mind) have lots of cool instances, yet feature fantastic opportunity to explore. Instances only add to this by adding an immersive adventure or personal experiences when one does find something out in the wilderness. Instancing is a tool, it can be used and poorly. One cannot blame the tool for the designer's chosen use of it - for exmaple DDO's use of instancing is terrible and detrimental to the world. AO's, LoTRO's or CoH's use of instancing is brilliant and immersive.
I suppose I missed out because I didn't play LoTRO nor CoH or AO to witness that particular design of instances. I just happened to play the titles with the horrible implemented instances. I am not all pro non instances. I think they have their uses. I actually may have to implement them within my own design because of server tension of high populated areas.
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All of these things I have listed are principles that the verterian mmo gamer is looking for. This does not mean the design and philosophy has to take a step back but rather focus on those four with innovative ideas.
Challenge, Community, Longevity, Exploration - these are indeed what I am looking for.
That's great.
Needless downtime, zerg-based combat, refusal to use new technology on principle, lack of content options - these are NOT. You go down that road and all you end up with is another Vanguard.
Actually most of what you say for I am absolutely against. If you re-read my post you should see that. I never once said refusal to use new technology. I don't know if the technology is existed yet to hold the capacity of my design.
You are blaming the wrong things for the lack of the things you want in today's games. The future of MMOs is in taking all the amazing tools available and building a better game. It's not in ignoring all the progress that has been made and saying "hey EQ was awesome, let's just rebuild it", because EQ was awesome 10 years ago. The world changed, the players changed - even the veteran ones.
That's an opinion. You have, I haven't. I still would like to see these principles to be focused on more than in the new age of mmos. I am all about using innovated and creative ideas. If you're interested you could PM me and I can discuss some of those with you. I have been working on my high concept document since 2004.
To me, the veteran mmo players are being segratated because of the new design and philosophy of the new age of mmos.
There's no such thing as a "veteran player". There are people who have played for a while, nothing more. However, the real issue here isn't that "veteran players" are being segregated, but that there are some people who can't move on and deal with modern reality. It's like old farts who like Model T cars. Those aren't "veteran drivers" who are being "segregated from the new design and philosophy of the new age of automobiles." They're people who can't keep up with the times.
MMOs, like it or not, have moved on without you. I'm a "veteran player" too, but I'm not stuck in the past. I no longer play those old games. I left for a reason. So did just about everyone else. Your turn.
I think you honestly have a point here. However you completley missed the intent of the thread. I was using the term, "veteran players" to distinguished the ones who have played in the titles old old. It's completely different. My nature is that I am a picky person. Gameplay, class design and world design are the things that I am picky with the most. So far no mmo has captiavted my interest in that regaurd.
I totally agree that MMORPGs needs to get back to it's roots. But it's roots is pen and paper roleplaying games.
Go back to them, and try to find new ways to recreate the feeling you get when you play them to a computer game.
Some of your suggestions have merit but what madwe M59, EQ and UO so unique was that they started from scratch, not with someones else exact ideas how a online RPG should be.
I mean a quest in a real RPG game is stuff like finding Dracula and kill him, save the kingdom from the king who has gone insane, throw the one ring into mount Doom or something similar. If someone would have asked my character in any P&P RPG if he could kill 10 rats or deliver a letter to his cousin 50 yards away he would punch the guys lights out.
I totally agree on he exploration thing, that is one of the thing that actually got better when they transfered the RPGs to computers, and now it is almost gone.
Anyways: We wont get a new good MMO by copying EQ or UO. We need to go back to the roots which is further than that. That doesn't mean we shouldn't use good ideas that makes gaming more fun, but we need more interesting and tactical combat, we mechanics that is more based on character development than loot and we need a completely new way of handling magic and crafting.
The magic system of mage and ARS magica where you more or less put the spells together yourself would be awesome in a MMO. And I want a crafting system that makes it feels like every item create is more or less unique instead of forcing me to craft 45 tin swords that is only good for vendortrash.
I made a magical Katana in Shadowrun. I hunted Giant Sharks in California, a huge crocodile in everglades, I dug for Orihalicon in Australia and iron in the rockies. After refining the stuff I spent while designing the exact look including the style of the Hamon and then did the last stuff with a spell. Of course I died 2 sessions later when we did a run without our stupid mage (I was a physical adept) but that should be how you craft something, not a factory made product that all looks the same. I also picked exactly what stuff to use and it affected the weapon.
Thanks Loke your posts are usually spot on. I also agree with your reply here. Mmorpgs should be about an adventure. By consolidating these four principles and pen and paper adventure styles would ultimetly make a grand mmo for the old school club of gamers. Your last paragraph reminds me of some old character retelling his advnetures and that would be great. I would love to recapture that in mmo's.
As for trying to copy EQ or UO is an extremely bad idea. You have to make your own IP. Collect the best game mechanics, design and philosophy from most games that complement your vision. In turn, make them your own. Every mmo will always be a rehash of other and older titles. However some things that EQ did could still used now just in an different way.
I agree with pretty much what the OP (And the guy above me) said.
To make these ideas work the design needs to start from scatch as already mentioned, all the aspects and mechanics have to revolve around these ideas.
I absolutely agree!
Buttonmashing won't work for exciting combat, neither will level gaps work for exploration, endgame will never be excitting if no end is ever reached (I believe mmorpgs should end and begin), excitting advnetures cannot be given with static content, mobs can't be smart if they are the only way of leveling up (You would need a large amount of mobs available to be killed for the players to progress giving the server less space for advanced behavior code) and the list goes on.
I believe an MMO which gives you a fun experience WILL come (Even if I have to have something to do with its development), the current MMORPG mechanics of the popular titles just don't allow these ideas to be implemented in an entertaining way.
It is a shame there is no dedicated forum here specialized in the discussion of MMO design, it would really help me flesh out my ideas and concepts. (Even my ideas have flaws that need tweaking through dialogue)
To address the buttonsmashing, I would also agree. I think combat should be fluid within the type of class you play. That means some classes may play slower than others in theory. However, I also believe that combat mechanics should complemet class design with varying options a player has access to. I also believe mmos should have a beginning and an end. Mine does. But the key is to progress the medium as much as you can so the company can at least break even.
That's really cool that you have your own ideas. I also have mine. Been working on a high concept document since 2004. Its a journey, I'll tell ya that. There actually is a forum called the Developers Corner. If you navigate towards the left of the forum page you'd see General Discusion and Devolopers Corner right above the list of mmos. I do warn you though, if your totally serious about your ideas I'd keep them at minium and only discuss them in a general sense.
I've been looking for a game to play with some friends for awhile now and I found myself missing EQ. By this I mean the constant grouping in dungeons camping mobs for a few hours a day. No questing just grinding away exp hanging out and chatting with random group mates. I feel that what is lacking in newer MMO's is the journey. Everyone just rushes through quests trying to be the first one at max level. They don't take time to enjoy the gameplay or the zones around. I just wish a company would bring the FUN back into leveling and the players need to relax and not worry so much about the end game.
Hey guys, long time lurker but this thread made me want to add my 2c.
Alright, I have to admit first off that the first game to truly hold me enthralled was vanilla Wow... but I will tell you why. I was around for EQ and UO but honestly at the tie I was more interested in D1/D2, SC, M:tG... yeah, I was one of those. I never got into the WC series though as an RTS (which is a bit odd, because I am more of a fantasy fan than sci-fi but still). I remember getting into WoW though when I was stationed at Parris Island and looking for a good game for my downtime and some friends were playing it.
As my first real MMO it was absolutely amazing. I remember getting onto a PvP server with some buddies and starting my little baby druid (horde of course) and just being completely captivated by the mountain of stuff to do. I mean from 1-60 (not even end game stuff yet) , I hit every single instance in the game and it took me like 2-3 months. I remember people telling me "hitting 60 is only 25% of the way there" and at the time I could believe it.
Things that got me hooked:
-lvl relevant instances that got you awesome blues
-thotbot.com which I spent hours and hours on, always looking for different peices of gear to help with my feral/resto druid, where to find them, ect
-being able to solo with stuff like grinding for rep, side quests like the Linken quest chain (i deff went across all the corners of azeroth to get that stupid sword and boomerang because it was f*cking awesome), fishing tournies, grinding out my stupid little dragon pet (back when they were a 1 in 500 drop or something retarded), ect
-grouping for pvp raids, all sorts of amazing instances from lvl 15-60, hard to get items like the greater fire prot pot, the .5T gear?! I got all of it
Then the end game content just kept me freaking hooked. Running to get keyed, spending months on MC and ZG, then BWL, then attempting to get through AQ before BC came out.
It was actually BC that killed it for me, I got back from a deployment and jumped into BC and I distincly remember my first day back... im decked out in all purples from months and months of hard work being in the first horde side guild to get through and down MC and BWL, ect... head into BC and some little lvl 55 running around in greens that were literally twice as good as the purps I had worked sooo freaking hard for. I promptly quit the game and havent looked back since.
This sucks because one, MMO's are now among my fav genres and two, I havent been able to replace those feelings I got from raiding with old pals or finally getting that freaking chest peice or crafting my Heart of the Wild cape. I have tried many different MMO's since then and honestly the closest I got to a good one was LoTRO, which I quit because the server died
So I guess my point/question is this... What was wrong with that set up? Not being able to cap for a good 2-3 months, looking forward to the next set up of blues even before you ever got your first purp and actually going out of your way to get them, awesome community (maybe I was lucky because it was vanilla WoW but I played with some amazing people), and months and months of awesome content and never ending quests that literally took you all over the world, and you Wanted to do it? Honestly if WoW had a EQ style of progression (something like actually having to beat at least BWL before moving on to BC to get keyed) then I would still be playing it today.
Sry for the massive post..
A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer.
One of the main reasons mmorpgs are failing nowadays are the communities.As an example eq wasnt very innovative(maybe for its time)however it was community driven,The community drove it forward i mean lets be honest it wasnt innovative combat or gameplay that held peoples attenton it was theyre online friends.As an example if you acted like a complete tool you never got a group and literally grouping was mandatory.In virtually all games now grouping is only required to get high end gear and that is a serious issue us old timers have with new games.Please excuse my poor grammar and such,been a long day.
Originally posted by Eronakis Originally posted by Cephus404 There's no such thing as a "veteran player". There are people who have played for a while, nothing more. However, the real issue here isn't that "veteran players" are being segregated, but that there are some people who can't move on and deal with modern reality. It's like old farts who like Model T cars. Those aren't "veteran drivers" who are being "segregated from the new design and philosophy of the new age of automobiles." They're people who can't keep up with the times. MMOs, like it or not, have moved on without you. I'm a "veteran player" too, but I'm not stuck in the past. I no longer play those old games. I left for a reason. So did just about everyone else. Your turn.
I was using the term, "veteran players" to distinguished the ones who have played in the titles old old. It's completely different.
It isn't different at all. As said, there are many who played games of old but they carried on and do not whine for old times, they play 'new MMOs' or do not play games any more because they adapted and evolved.
It is not the genre in 'dire need of going back to it's roots', it is you who is in dire need to move on.
You only apply your perception and desires and claim them as market needs. The world is not spinning around you and your desires...
There's no such thing as a "veteran player". There are people who have played for a while, nothing more. However, the real issue here isn't that "veteran players" are being segregated, but that there are some people who can't move on and deal with modern reality. It's like old farts who like Model T cars. Those aren't "veteran drivers" who are being "segregated from the new design and philosophy of the new age of automobiles." They're people who can't keep up with the times.
MMOs, like it or not, have moved on without you. I'm a "veteran player" too, but I'm not stuck in the past. I no longer play those old games. I left for a reason. So did just about everyone else. Your turn.
I was using the term, "veteran players" to distinguished the ones who have played in the titles old old. It's completely different.
It isn't different at all. As said, there are many who played games of old but they carried on and do not whine for old times, they play 'new MMOs' or do not play games any more because they adapted and evolved.
It is not the genre in 'dire need of going back to it's roots', it is you who is in dire need to move on.
You only apply your perception and desires and claim them as market needs. The world is not spinning around you and your desires...
Really? My desires? There is a large sample of other posters in this thread who are in compliance with me. Something struck a nerve.
Look, I think the genre needs to go back to its roots on their philosophy of game design. This thread is about game design. Something that many players think they know. I fully comprehend mmo game design. I understand the new age philosophy of mmos. I also think an even blend of old school philosophy with new age innovation would be ideal.
Originally posted by Eronakis Really? My desires? There is a large sample of other posters in this thread who are in compliance with me. Something struck a nerve.
Indeed, large sample on these forums, insignificant sample on MMO market.
Originally posted by Eronakis I think the genre needs to go back to its roots on their philosophy of game design.
In order to find out market needs, you question customers and analyze the market. Something you are not doing so at all.
Instead all your thoughts come from your very own unfounded believes and personal desires.
The reason why current MMOs are the way they are is that there is little people interested in such games thus developing them isn't as profitable if profitable at all. That is how market actually works. If there is no demand, there is no supply.
If anything, you can say that market reflects the desires of the customers, then we have you coming here and saying the market needs are exact opposite...
I agree for the most part but....."sorry bub, its not gonna happen".
Agree. Better to move with times and enjoy what you have now.
We have nothing now, the genre is not dying its already dead, look at 2010 released titles for god's sake and look at the titles prior 2010, most of them going from P2P to F2P, in the current MMO era you dont play as a hero you play as a delivery boy doing task from a vendor machine with an interrogation symbol at head called NPC, its just stupid.
They should try to do virtual worlds no just solo online games with a 3 month life span.
Really? My desires? There is a large sample of other posters in this thread who are in compliance with me. Something struck a nerve.
Indeed, large sample on these forums, insignificant sample on MMO market.
Originally posted by Eronakis
I think the genre needs to go back to its roots on their philosophy of game design.
In order to find out market needs, you question customers and analyze the market. Something you are not doing so at all.
Instead all your thoughts come from your very own unfounded believes and personal desires.
The reason why current MMOs are the way they are is that there is little people interested in such games thus developing them isn't as profitable if profitable at all. That is how market actually works. If there is no demand, there is no supply.
If anything, you can say that market reflects the desires of the customers, then we have you coming here and saying the market needs are exact opposite...
That would make perfect sense if large part (majority?) of MMORPG players had experienced any other MMORPG besides WOW. As it is, large portion of the market have no idea what they are missing.
Really? My desires? There is a large sample of other posters in this thread who are in compliance with me. Something struck a nerve.
Indeed, large sample on these forums, insignificant sample on MMO market.
Originally posted by Eronakis
I think the genre needs to go back to its roots on their philosophy of game design.
In order to find out market needs, you question customers and analyze the market. Something you are not doing so at all.
Instead all your thoughts come from your very own unfounded believes and personal desires.
The reason why current MMOs are the way they are is that there is little people interested in such games thus developing them isn't as profitable if profitable at all. That is how market actually works. If there is no demand, there is no supply.
If anything, you can say that market reflects the desires of the customers, then we have you coming here and saying the market needs are exact opposite...
I wouldn't say unfounded beliefes but yes on personal desires. I have experiece. Been working on my own project since 2004. Graduated with a bachelors degree. Are you currently or have been in the industry? I understand supply and demand. Yes, I would agree the market reflects the customers desires. The majority of the market is new age gamers. Wow is their first mmo mainly.
This is like democracy. The majority wins eh? Well I am making the game for a niche market. Ths won't be a wow nor a wow killer. I don't want it to be. If this can be sustianed by this niche market it will do well. I do understand this is a business, however, integrity is higher on my list than revenue. But that's fantasy land. Everyone cares about a piece of paper that is just a reciept from gold that really doesn't mean anything. I am more about passion than that. Hopefully one day I'll prove you wrong. I am not one to conform because its popular. I stick to my guns. I'll adapt if necassary. And the current state of the mmo genre is vile. That is an opinion.
To say that the majority of posters here don't make up for the market is quiet delusional. Why even come here if you're not playing? There is over 1 million users here. I'd say a large sample of that plays mmos. And the majority of them are silent here.
I'll repeat my self again. This thread and the people who agree want a niche game. It doesn't have to have millions to be successful. Just enough to sustian it to a loyal fanbase. Something that is creative, unique and innovative can go along way when its not a carbon copy of design philosophy of the new age mmos.
Check out Xsyon. Google the game and read through the feature list imagining what the game is going to be like. It's just in beta right now and has a projected release in mid-late January, however, some players seem to think it's realistically a few months away from release. It combines everything that has made MMO's successful over the years while also learning from what has made others unsuccessful while also bringing completely new ideas to the table. The dev team is very small so they can only have 1 large priority at a time and right now tribe rankings and tribe quest (players write the quests in this game) are coming next. Almost all of the professions are in the game and many tribes have already modified the terrain they've claimed and built a city. PM me if you have questions or decide you're interested. I'll point you're way once you get in game if you'd like. I have honestly never been this excited for a game since my first characters on EQ1 and SWG
What other game design philosophies or mechanics that the "veterian" old school gamer is looking for other then the 4 I have listed. I will say it again, the four I have listed is a general idea of what I feel the genre is lacking based on the wants of old school gamers. I have spoken with a lot and most generally are in compliance.
I've played MMOs since 1999, starting with EQ. I like that these games are evolving more into something that I truly enjoy versus games that I barely found entertaining, but pushed my addiction buttons. I'm quite sure there will always be one or two new upcoming games similar to EQ, Eve or Darkfall that will embrace old school paradigms, but I certainly don't want the genre as a whole to revert to what I consider to be the dark ages of MMO history. I know that means slim pickings for you guys in the future, but gamers like me are the majority of the cash flow now.
For those of you with fond memories of UO, and the patience to test a game in developement (early stages) then you might want to google Dawntide, its still buggy and basic but has potential. You will be signing up to a far from finished game but it covers crafting, exploration, building and full loot pvp. The community is very small and pretty friendly, and the dev team respond to input while being available on irc for discusion when they have the time. This has been in open beta for about six months but not many people can handle the constant changes and bugs so the population remains small but those that play are helpful. PVP is almost non existent so you are pretty free to explore the game as you see fit, 90% of items are player crafted, houses and boats can be built as well as functional buildings.
The reason I post is because of what it doesnt have, abuse in chat, gankers and griefers (atm), loot drops to please the instant gratification crowd and absolubtely no instances in the game.
I have been testing since it went open, and I wont say it will be everyones cup of tea, its a niche game for a more adult community. A house or boat may take you up to a week to make, and you need to train the skills to do it. A town will take many players weeks or months. It is being developed by a very small team in a way much like EVE was all those years ago. Dont expect miracles or even a game close to your average beta. Most peoples first impressions are its in alpha stages but it is free while in developement and all input is welcomed on the forums and in irc.
Some may say I am a fanboi, I just say I recongise its potential to fill a gap in the market.
For those of you with fond memories of UO, and the patience to test a game in developement (early stages) then you might want to google Dawntide, its still buggy and basic but has potential. You will be signing up to a far from finished game but it covers crafting, exploration, building and full loot pvp. The community is very small and pretty friendly, and the dev team respond to input while being available on irc for discusion when they have the time. This has been in open beta for about six months but not many people can handle the constant changes and bugs so the population remains small but those that play are helpful. PVP is almost non existent so you are pretty free to explore the game as you see fit, 90% of items are player crafted, houses and boats can be built as well as functional buildings.
The reason I post is because of what it doesnt have, abuse in chat, gankers and griefers (atm), loot drops to please the instant gratification crowd and absolubtely no instances in the game.
I have been testing since it went open, and I wont say it will be everyones cup of tea, its a niche game for a more adult community. A house or boat may take you up to a week to make, and you need to train the skills to do it. A town will take many players weeks or months. It is being developed by a very small team in a way much like EVE was all those years ago. Dont expect miracles or even a game close to your average beta. Most peoples first impressions are its in alpha stages but it is free while in developement and all input is welcomed on the forums and in irc.
Some may say I am a fanboi, I just say I recongise its potential to fill a gap in the market.
I'm gonna have to check that out.
Thanks for the tip Tablix.
Einherjar_LC says: WTB the true successor to UO or Asheron's Call pst!
I agree the community is dead in MMO's of today. EQ had one of the best communities I have ever seen in any MMO. The reason is because they HAD to have one as they had to manage certain aspects of the game themselves. They agreed on raid calenders outside of the actual game. The AH didn't exist thus they created the EC Tunnel for open trading/selling. There was no easy travel thus you had druids on friends lists you could request a port from or Wizards.
EQ also had something else not known in any MMO today - Risk vs Reward. Where the higher the risk the better the reward. Most MMO's today give loot away or let you simply spend real cash to buy it.
Players today want everything and want it now. MMO developers have learned that what they want is subs and they don't care if people actually play the game. They simply want as many subs as they can get. Thus they now cater to the casual player over the loyal hardcore players. There is no community or immersion only quick battles and easy loot. Look at WOW. You don't even have to go to the dungeons to zone in anymore. Simply queue up and go about your business then warp to the zone when prompted, fight and when done it puts you right back where you were. How lazy can you possibly get?
What we need is another Old School EQ (prior to POP) where there was no instances, easy Travel, AH. Where certain classes could solo but others could not. Where there was NO PVP. Let the server figure out how they will sale their goods. Give us back Druid Portals and Wizard Spires. Give us back Risk vs Reward, TRULY EPIC Guests, Great raid zones that take skill............I digress as I'm sure you get the point.
Comments
EQ1 or UO were a lot more PvP focused than any of today's game. Half of those "dual me fagit" people will tell you about they been "pwning noobs since uo". Again, blaming the "modernity" for PvP is not the answer.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
Yeah, I'm elitist for stating my own personal opinion(hence the IMO) on a thread about the older games, and the genre's roots.
You got me and so did he....
/thread
Einherjar_LC says: WTB the true successor to UO or Asheron's Call pst!
We'll see. Hopefully I'll prove you wrong (:
There's no such thing as a "veteran player". There are people who have played for a while, nothing more. However, the real issue here isn't that "veteran players" are being segregated, but that there are some people who can't move on and deal with modern reality. It's like old farts who like Model T cars. Those aren't "veteran drivers" who are being "segregated from the new design and philosophy of the new age of automobiles." They're people who can't keep up with the times.
MMOs, like it or not, have moved on without you. I'm a "veteran player" too, but I'm not stuck in the past. I no longer play those old games. I left for a reason. So did just about everyone else. Your turn.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
I think you honestly have a point here. However you completley missed the intent of the thread. I was using the term, "veteran players" to distinguished the ones who have played in the titles old old. It's completely different. My nature is that I am a picky person. Gameplay, class design and world design are the things that I am picky with the most. So far no mmo has captiavted my interest in that regaurd.
Thanks Loke your posts are usually spot on. I also agree with your reply here. Mmorpgs should be about an adventure. By consolidating these four principles and pen and paper adventure styles would ultimetly make a grand mmo for the old school club of gamers. Your last paragraph reminds me of some old character retelling his advnetures and that would be great. I would love to recapture that in mmo's.
As for trying to copy EQ or UO is an extremely bad idea. You have to make your own IP. Collect the best game mechanics, design and philosophy from most games that complement your vision. In turn, make them your own. Every mmo will always be a rehash of other and older titles. However some things that EQ did could still used now just in an different way.
To address the buttonsmashing, I would also agree. I think combat should be fluid within the type of class you play. That means some classes may play slower than others in theory. However, I also believe that combat mechanics should complemet class design with varying options a player has access to. I also believe mmos should have a beginning and an end. Mine does. But the key is to progress the medium as much as you can so the company can at least break even.
That's really cool that you have your own ideas. I also have mine. Been working on a high concept document since 2004. Its a journey, I'll tell ya that. There actually is a forum called the Developers Corner. If you navigate towards the left of the forum page you'd see General Discusion and Devolopers Corner right above the list of mmos. I do warn you though, if your totally serious about your ideas I'd keep them at minium and only discuss them in a general sense.
I've been looking for a game to play with some friends for awhile now and I found myself missing EQ. By this I mean the constant grouping in dungeons camping mobs for a few hours a day. No questing just grinding away exp hanging out and chatting with random group mates. I feel that what is lacking in newer MMO's is the journey. Everyone just rushes through quests trying to be the first one at max level. They don't take time to enjoy the gameplay or the zones around. I just wish a company would bring the FUN back into leveling and the players need to relax and not worry so much about the end game.
Hey guys, long time lurker but this thread made me want to add my 2c.
Alright, I have to admit first off that the first game to truly hold me enthralled was vanilla Wow... but I will tell you why. I was around for EQ and UO but honestly at the tie I was more interested in D1/D2, SC, M:tG... yeah, I was one of those. I never got into the WC series though as an RTS (which is a bit odd, because I am more of a fantasy fan than sci-fi but still). I remember getting into WoW though when I was stationed at Parris Island and looking for a good game for my downtime and some friends were playing it.
As my first real MMO it was absolutely amazing. I remember getting onto a PvP server with some buddies and starting my little baby druid (horde of course) and just being completely captivated by the mountain of stuff to do. I mean from 1-60 (not even end game stuff yet) , I hit every single instance in the game and it took me like 2-3 months. I remember people telling me "hitting 60 is only 25% of the way there" and at the time I could believe it.
Things that got me hooked:
-lvl relevant instances that got you awesome blues
-thotbot.com which I spent hours and hours on, always looking for different peices of gear to help with my feral/resto druid, where to find them, ect
-being able to solo with stuff like grinding for rep, side quests like the Linken quest chain (i deff went across all the corners of azeroth to get that stupid sword and boomerang because it was f*cking awesome), fishing tournies, grinding out my stupid little dragon pet (back when they were a 1 in 500 drop or something retarded), ect
-grouping for pvp raids, all sorts of amazing instances from lvl 15-60, hard to get items like the greater fire prot pot, the .5T gear?! I got all of it
Then the end game content just kept me freaking hooked. Running to get keyed, spending months on MC and ZG, then BWL, then attempting to get through AQ before BC came out.
It was actually BC that killed it for me, I got back from a deployment and jumped into BC and I distincly remember my first day back... im decked out in all purples from months and months of hard work being in the first horde side guild to get through and down MC and BWL, ect... head into BC and some little lvl 55 running around in greens that were literally twice as good as the purps I had worked sooo freaking hard for. I promptly quit the game and havent looked back since.
This sucks because one, MMO's are now among my fav genres and two, I havent been able to replace those feelings I got from raiding with old pals or finally getting that freaking chest peice or crafting my Heart of the Wild cape. I have tried many different MMO's since then and honestly the closest I got to a good one was LoTRO, which I quit because the server died
So I guess my point/question is this... What was wrong with that set up? Not being able to cap for a good 2-3 months, looking forward to the next set up of blues even before you ever got your first purp and actually going out of your way to get them, awesome community (maybe I was lucky because it was vanilla WoW but I played with some amazing people), and months and months of awesome content and never ending quests that literally took you all over the world, and you Wanted to do it? Honestly if WoW had a EQ style of progression (something like actually having to beat at least BWL before moving on to BC to get keyed) then I would still be playing it today.
Sry for the massive post..
A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer.
One of the main reasons mmorpgs are failing nowadays are the communities.As an example eq wasnt very innovative(maybe for its time)however it was community driven,The community drove it forward i mean lets be honest it wasnt innovative combat or gameplay that held peoples attenton it was theyre online friends.As an example if you acted like a complete tool you never got a group and literally grouping was mandatory.In virtually all games now grouping is only required to get high end gear and that is a serious issue us old timers have with new games.Please excuse my poor grammar and such,been a long day.
It isn't different at all. As said, there are many who played games of old but they carried on and do not whine for old times, they play 'new MMOs' or do not play games any more because they adapted and evolved.
It is not the genre in 'dire need of going back to it's roots', it is you who is in dire need to move on.
You only apply your perception and desires and claim them as market needs. The world is not spinning around you and your desires...
Really? My desires? There is a large sample of other posters in this thread who are in compliance with me. Something struck a nerve.
Look, I think the genre needs to go back to its roots on their philosophy of game design. This thread is about game design. Something that many players think they know. I fully comprehend mmo game design. I understand the new age philosophy of mmos. I also think an even blend of old school philosophy with new age innovation would be ideal.
More or less agree with OP, todays MMORPGs are not very good.
And when I say 'not very good', I mean they suck. Badly.
Indeed, large sample on these forums, insignificant sample on MMO market.
In order to find out market needs, you question customers and analyze the market. Something you are not doing so at all.
Instead all your thoughts come from your very own unfounded believes and personal desires.
The reason why current MMOs are the way they are is that there is little people interested in such games thus developing them isn't as profitable if profitable at all. That is how market actually works. If there is no demand, there is no supply.
If anything, you can say that market reflects the desires of the customers, then we have you coming here and saying the market needs are exact opposite...
We have nothing now, the genre is not dying its already dead, look at 2010 released titles for god's sake and look at the titles prior 2010, most of them going from P2P to F2P, in the current MMO era you dont play as a hero you play as a delivery boy doing task from a vendor machine with an interrogation symbol at head called NPC, its just stupid.
They should try to do virtual worlds no just solo online games with a 3 month life span.
That would make perfect sense if large part (majority?) of MMORPG players had experienced any other MMORPG besides WOW. As it is, large portion of the market have no idea what they are missing.
I wouldn't say unfounded beliefes but yes on personal desires. I have experiece. Been working on my own project since 2004. Graduated with a bachelors degree. Are you currently or have been in the industry? I understand supply and demand. Yes, I would agree the market reflects the customers desires. The majority of the market is new age gamers. Wow is their first mmo mainly.
This is like democracy. The majority wins eh? Well I am making the game for a niche market. Ths won't be a wow nor a wow killer. I don't want it to be. If this can be sustianed by this niche market it will do well. I do understand this is a business, however, integrity is higher on my list than revenue. But that's fantasy land. Everyone cares about a piece of paper that is just a reciept from gold that really doesn't mean anything. I am more about passion than that. Hopefully one day I'll prove you wrong. I am not one to conform because its popular. I stick to my guns. I'll adapt if necassary. And the current state of the mmo genre is vile. That is an opinion.
To say that the majority of posters here don't make up for the market is quiet delusional. Why even come here if you're not playing? There is over 1 million users here. I'd say a large sample of that plays mmos. And the majority of them are silent here.
I'll repeat my self again. This thread and the people who agree want a niche game. It doesn't have to have millions to be successful. Just enough to sustian it to a loyal fanbase. Something that is creative, unique and innovative can go along way when its not a carbon copy of design philosophy of the new age mmos.
/signed
Check out Xsyon. Google the game and read through the feature list imagining what the game is going to be like. It's just in beta right now and has a projected release in mid-late January, however, some players seem to think it's realistically a few months away from release. It combines everything that has made MMO's successful over the years while also learning from what has made others unsuccessful while also bringing completely new ideas to the table. The dev team is very small so they can only have 1 large priority at a time and right now tribe rankings and tribe quest (players write the quests in this game) are coming next. Almost all of the professions are in the game and many tribes have already modified the terrain they've claimed and built a city. PM me if you have questions or decide you're interested. I'll point you're way once you get in game if you'd like. I have honestly never been this excited for a game since my first characters on EQ1 and SWG
What other game design philosophies or mechanics that the "veterian" old school gamer is looking for other then the 4 I have listed. I will say it again, the four I have listed is a general idea of what I feel the genre is lacking based on the wants of old school gamers. I have spoken with a lot and most generally are in compliance.
I've played MMOs since 1999, starting with EQ. I like that these games are evolving more into something that I truly enjoy versus games that I barely found entertaining, but pushed my addiction buttons. I'm quite sure there will always be one or two new upcoming games similar to EQ, Eve or Darkfall that will embrace old school paradigms, but I certainly don't want the genre as a whole to revert to what I consider to be the dark ages of MMO history. I know that means slim pickings for you guys in the future, but gamers like me are the majority of the cash flow now.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
For those of you with fond memories of UO, and the patience to test a game in developement (early stages) then you might want to google Dawntide, its still buggy and basic but has potential. You will be signing up to a far from finished game but it covers crafting, exploration, building and full loot pvp. The community is very small and pretty friendly, and the dev team respond to input while being available on irc for discusion when they have the time. This has been in open beta for about six months but not many people can handle the constant changes and bugs so the population remains small but those that play are helpful. PVP is almost non existent so you are pretty free to explore the game as you see fit, 90% of items are player crafted, houses and boats can be built as well as functional buildings.
The reason I post is because of what it doesnt have, abuse in chat, gankers and griefers (atm), loot drops to please the instant gratification crowd and absolubtely no instances in the game.
I have been testing since it went open, and I wont say it will be everyones cup of tea, its a niche game for a more adult community. A house or boat may take you up to a week to make, and you need to train the skills to do it. A town will take many players weeks or months. It is being developed by a very small team in a way much like EVE was all those years ago. Dont expect miracles or even a game close to your average beta. Most peoples first impressions are its in alpha stages but it is free while in developement and all input is welcomed on the forums and in irc.
Some may say I am a fanboi, I just say I recongise its potential to fill a gap in the market.
I'm gonna have to check that out.
Thanks for the tip Tablix.
Einherjar_LC says: WTB the true successor to UO or Asheron's Call pst!
I agree the community is dead in MMO's of today. EQ had one of the best communities I have ever seen in any MMO. The reason is because they HAD to have one as they had to manage certain aspects of the game themselves. They agreed on raid calenders outside of the actual game. The AH didn't exist thus they created the EC Tunnel for open trading/selling. There was no easy travel thus you had druids on friends lists you could request a port from or Wizards.
EQ also had something else not known in any MMO today - Risk vs Reward. Where the higher the risk the better the reward. Most MMO's today give loot away or let you simply spend real cash to buy it.
Players today want everything and want it now. MMO developers have learned that what they want is subs and they don't care if people actually play the game. They simply want as many subs as they can get. Thus they now cater to the casual player over the loyal hardcore players. There is no community or immersion only quick battles and easy loot. Look at WOW. You don't even have to go to the dungeons to zone in anymore. Simply queue up and go about your business then warp to the zone when prompted, fight and when done it puts you right back where you were. How lazy can you possibly get?
What we need is another Old School EQ (prior to POP) where there was no instances, easy Travel, AH. Where certain classes could solo but others could not. Where there was NO PVP. Let the server figure out how they will sale their goods. Give us back Druid Portals and Wizard Spires. Give us back Risk vs Reward, TRULY EPIC Guests, Great raid zones that take skill............I digress as I'm sure you get the point.
MMORPGs need to go back to their ideals, not the finsiehd old shcool MMOs, the old is constantly replaced with the new.
There is always market for a new idea which happens to be fun and effective as long as you let people know it exists and let them give it a try.
We do not need old MMO designs, we need a completely new design based around fun (Not levels).