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Cata PUG heroics suck
Iselin
Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
I don't have a problem with the new difficult content. In fact I welcome the move away from the AoE tank'n'spank fest LK heroics had become. The new heroics are like mini raids with lots of new tricks and a requirement to be on your toes.
The problem however, is the combination of this new content with the PUG dungeon queue system. I have never seen so much useless drama and finger pointing in pugs. Every time there's a wipe the bickering starts about whether the healing, tanking, dps or CC sucked and was the cause of the wipe... rage quits and group kicks are the order of the day. I don't think I've completed a single PUG heroic with the same 5 people that started it!
The obvious solution is to queue with friends from your guild but we can't always do that, can we?
This is starting to remind me why I almost never did PUG ICC raids.
If you've been doing heroics already you probably know what I'm talking about. If you haven't, I hope you have thick skin when you start on them 
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Comments
I have not played WoW in over 3 years, but does it still have a LFG channell? If it does wouldn't that be a better way to go so you could do some verification that people are not complete tools?
--John Ruskin
This problem has ZERO to do with Heroics and has a LOT to do with the mentality.
For example: Ran Blackfathom Depths the other night. I was a Druid STACKED with STA items so I could tank. We had 2 warrior DPS, 1 hunter, 1 healer (I'm trying to remember if this was a priest or shammy). After the first boss, 1 warrior DPS was NOT doing ANYTHING. They literally were just autoattacking and following. Kicked.
Later, ran SFK. Still on my DRUID tank. Druid's early on have a HUGE problem controlling aggro. You can maintain about 2-3 guys easily but tha's about that. The PROBLEM became that a rogue decided that 3 weren't enough at a time and started stealing aggro. I asked VERY politely to allow me to atleast GRAB and hold the threat but he refused. So I stopped grabbing the threat from the random things he grabbed. I man just SILLY grabs. Stuff across rooms behind items a healer can't heal through etc. Eventually he died. He asked to be rezzed. The priest asked nicely if he would just tone down the DPS to get THROUGH it and he refused. He then logged.
I play a game for it to be a game. If I wanted to deal with 3 y/o attitudes I'd deal with my daughter. It's just silliness. Thanks to random dungeon queuing you can't even regulate with the people you KNOW in the world. When you grouped instances before atleast you KNEW to add people to group again lists and what have you. Your name was relatively imporant. Now with this its a TRUE tossup. Even scrubs can click up in the queue.
Never had a problem with PUG ICC, even did hardmodes but the problem with Cata HC PUG's isn't the dungeon finder, it's that blizzard has finally gotten to the point where their ideas come back and bite them in the ass, and that hard.
I mean with this that the whole of Wrath was childsplay up until hardmodes started coming. Pugging HC's in Wrath was no problem even with fully green geared groups. Blizzard must have noticed complaints about it long before the end of Wrath but decided to keep it going the expansion out. First time stepping into ICC and one-shooting everything in first tier wasn't something uncommon. So, now they got the bright idea that they change it all for the next expansion, Cataclysm. Cata comes and most people happily think it's the same was Wrath.
You can see clear signs that shit like pulling up till first boss and aoe'ing it won't work, already in blackrock caverns, but sitll people continue trying it up till grim batol and then HC's. Personally as I have no real interest in rushing to raid, is taking my time to level up all my 80's to 85 and hope that people have learnt by then that mass-pull and aoe is yesterdays dinner. Today it's caution and CC that wins the day.
I saw this coming from miles away and the only one to blame is Blizzard. They handed everything to the players during WotLK by making the content both 5 man and raid so hilarious easy to the point it was suitable for monkeys in test labs. 30% buff in the games end raid dungeon? Give me a freaking break. I left WoW after my guild cleared 25man Ulduar with only 2 hard modes missing and when i returned mid ICC i looked around me and saw every scrub guild who never made it past the keepers in Ulduar walking around with the Kingslayer title.
Do you know that there are Kingslayer titled players out there who never had to cc in a PvE environment, never had to follow a kill order, never had to worry about their threat? They are not familiar with these terms. Last night in Grim Batol a hunter was told to cc a mob and he asked which trap he should use. My main since 2005 is a hunter and i find myself enjoying 5 mans again. Even more i like the fact that purples are no more in there. Fortunately i run the instances with guildies only and i can afford to spare me the average pug moron.
I never said the problem is heroics: it's when you combine the new harder cata heroics with the random personalities one finds in a pick-up group that we have a problem. I mean as long as things were ridiculously easy all PUGers had to gripe about was who needed what loot so PUgs were generally tolerable. Now it's a bickerfest... as you show so well with your own examples
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Have to agree. One thing Blizzard seems to have forgot is that the end game needs to be fun, for people to want to play. At the moment, its just frustrating as hell. Its also now way to much of a grind fest, even to progress a small amount.
The new dungeons are actually well done, its just that they aren't really dungeon level difficulty. The HCs are basically 5 man raids.
People will adjust as time goes on. The expansion has only been out a week and the new tougher fights are going to be a cold wake up call for all the people who think they are pro.
Some will still be pricks, but I think the majority of players will adapt to the new playstyle and everyone will get along again.
^ this
fun means different things for different peoples. For some fun is beating everything from week 1 and getting loot, for others fun means challenging content.
You have to start somewhere.
Pugging will always have it's ups and downs. You'll always run the risk of going in with some terrible players, then again you can also get lucky and hook up with some pretty reliable players regardless if Heroic or not.
You shouldn't let this experience put a dent on what you're trying to accomplish in WoW.
In my experince PUGS suck in WOW no matter what level dungeon you are ding. that is why i stick with my friends and guildies. You guys really need to find some good guilds.
Who could have thought that WOW could bring super power like USA to its knees?
Originally posted by Arcken
To put it in a nutshell, our society is about to hit the fan, grades are dropping, obesity is going up,childhood the USA is going to lose its super power status before too long, but hey, as long as we have a cheap method to babysit our kids, all will be well no?
Im picking on WoW btw because its the beast that made all of this possible
It's the player mentality Blizzard has created over the years with easymode gameplay and instantgratification.
The bulk of players have been conditioned to expect quick and easy success with large payoffs. That's why they kick, scream, and blame everyone but themselves if they don't instantly blow through instances without any trouble.
Very well put. This is exactly it.
I still see the odd tank trying to chainpull in the new content even though that's suicide now that healer's mana has become an issue again.
Can't get 3 epic drops in 5 minutes? It's the tank's fault
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
I think one major problem with some of the dungeon encounters in MMORPGs (primarily heroics in WoW) is the fact that they are almost impossible to successfully complete (no wipes) without prior experience, be it earlier dungeon runs or fight strategies on the internet. You get two or three players in a group who have done the dungeon over and over with their guild or whatever mixed in with two people who have never done the instance before, and the two people who've never done the instance cause all sorts of problems, and the people who have ran it a million times call them idiots and then kick them, thus the cycle repeats itself.
No one is willing to take responsibility to lead groups through dungeon encounters anymore, and people always assume everyone else knows what they're doing. Tanks are going to have to slow down, CC classes need to ask what they need to be trapping, and damage dealers need to hold off the the AoE spamfest. People are going to have to learn to work together and not as six individuals in the same area trying to top each other on the DPS meters.
Its not about them being challenging. I'm a hardcore raider, so the difficulty is a welcome change, however when it takes a "perfect" group to complete them, or one where people are actually willing to wipe, it goes beyond fun for those PuG'ing. Right now you have to queue for 30-40 mins, only to be lucky to hold the same group for more than 1 or 2 bosses. The difficulty is also misplaced. Right now the game pleases the hardcore, at the great expense of others.
I think you can knock off 'cata' and 'heroics' from your title. I think PUGS just suck. I think Cataclysm merely draws attention to how bad they can truly be.
I fear more when the GearScore requirements kicks in.
At the moment at whoever has good skills still can finish a PUG, when GS starts to be a requirements many good players won't even have the chance to start a PUG...............
As a returning player I was more than a little shocked at the changes, the most noticeable changes were of my class which is a Paladin and I play the Protection spec.
In TBC/Wotlk the tanking was simplified and fun, easy to use and with some common sense you could make a name for yourself as a decent tank. Making a name for yourself now shoiuld also be fairly easy but with PuGs and players from various backgrounds the melting pot just is not working at all.
Now I know people always say "Get a guild, run with them" etc but that isn't easy in my case. Guilds and I don't get along well.. we never have. I won't go into reasons but sufficed to say that playing solo is a huge chunk of the game for me. Now as I said I've returned to the game after 6 months and still a little unsure about the new direction of my class so I've been reading up on it and such from maintankadin and MMO champ forum threads for Prot Paladins and learning quite abit.
Reading and practicing are two very different things and because I cannot get the chance to practice much I utilise tools such as Crowd Control to make my job as a tank just that bit easier for myself and for the healer. I don't have the same confidence I did when the guild I was in took down Yogg Saron 25. I don't have all the abilities on command when I need them.. they rely on holy power such as Hammer of the Righteous etc.
Tanking has become more of a challenge, great! The game needed a change to make tanking challenging and fun. The latter is what is missing. Tanking is no longer fun because your expected to do everything instantly and go go og go go gogogogogogogogogogogooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!
No one understands the concept of Crowd Control of very few do and like some one mentioned in this thread earlier, the game caters entirely for the hardcore at the great expense of others right now. The community is the biggest problem of the game right now and that needs to be fixed before turning to dungeons or anything else for that matter happens.
I guess the crux of what I am trying to say is that PuGs suck because of the lack of patience, understanding and know how and I know this has been said time and time again. So my question is.. how does the community fix its own problems?
As has been pointed out, Wrath bred an entirely new breed of Dungeoning. Faceroll easymode for the hyper casual and his quick ADHD ego boost. Failure was not an option in Wrath. Wrath also brought in many new people to WoW, so Wrath difficulty is all that they know, and when things dont work how they used to, they dont get their epeen ego boost from topping the DPS meters, and they actually die because the tank couldnt hold 10 mobs and the healer couldnt heal everyone, himself, and still have enough mana to keep a blood elf community sated for months on end, its frustrating. There was a distinct lack of patience developed through Wrath, more, a promotion of impatient play, the classes were so forgiving of lazy play that you could sit back, AoE, tank keeps aggro, healer decides to heal something every now and then, and the group moves forward.
I do understand that, it being the first week and people being undergeared, there will be a challenge, after people get gear, new content is introduced with new gear, the current crop of heroics will become as trivial as Wraths heroics (I hope) but I do have a secret frear in me, the pessimist keeps nagging at the back of my mind that, too many Wrath entries will be turned off at being humbled by a mere 5 man when raids were so easy in Wrath, so they will complain on the forums and the difficulty will be toned down, then we have Wrath 2.0, slightly more difficult than Wrath, but made easier for the mass of newer players that do not cherish having difficulty, require CC, or have any self control or patience. I hope im wrong.
I'm really happy to hear about how hard the Heroics are for pugs. The LFD tool should've never been the main choice, it should've been a last minute option. When LFD tool came out in Wotlk, heroics were already puggable so nobody was really afraid to be grouped with a bunch of strangers, so instead of grouping with a guild, or a least people in the same real, it was more benefitial to group with a bunch of people you'd never see again, now people will talk in realms again, trying to avoid the headache of a pug, sounds good to me.
-I want a Platformer MMO
This. I like it so far. H is difficult and cc is in demand. i have not used my cc since BC. I am happy that i need to stay on my toes and use all my tools to stay alive. blink is usedul now in H and i would advise to spec into it even for pve.i run H with guildies. there is no ragequit and we all learn the fight. So happy when i first cleared a H. i would only do normal with a pug.
i actually like the idea that pug Heroics are mostly a horrible experience. this will hopefully force people to use their guild mates or friends or even just people from their server instead of the LFD button. hopefully this will bring back some of that comunity that WoW had back in the day. Heroics should be hard, not like they were in Wotlk.
JOIN. A. GOOD. GUILD. There is a new post like this almost every day. AND THERE IS A SOLUTION! A GOOD GUILD!
Remember Old School Ultima Online
Agreed. The only thing I'm really confused on though is this: the game's been out for 6 years, and has always been known to have a plethora of children inhabiting the world; how have those same 13 year olds not aged a day mentally?
As a healer, I have found recently that people will rush in, not think, and basically just think that they are going to faceroll everything. This point was highlighted to me when I was yelled at by a DPS because I wasn't healing, thereby letting him die. And I replied something like this...if you are continuing to get aggro from mobs then you need to slow your DPS or the tank needs to up his threat. As a healer in a Dungeon Pug, I should not have to heal you as much as the tank.
However, it gets back to the idea that players aren't focusing on their roles. Their will be some serious growing pains with this new XPAC. New players who just joined during WOTLK may not remember or understand LOS or CC. And I have had to explain LOS and CC to people on LK dungeons plenty of times. People will need to learn their roles. And I hope that Blizz allows for them to learn their roles, and does not simply nerf shit.
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