Are MMOs actually a good place for proper PVP fun?

gordiflu · December 2010

Just want to hear your thoughts about this, since I have been thinking about it myself quite a lot lately.

I ll try to be brief.

When I am playing against other players, there are many games where skill is, given decent ping on both sides, pretty much the only thing that matters. Many games come to my mind: Starcraft, Tekken, Quake, Medal of Honor, Soul Calibur... And then I realize that none of them is an MMO.

And then you got MMOs. Wether you like it or not, skill is hardly ever what determines the outcome of the fight. Gear, group numbers, FOTM builds, class imbalance, these are very often the factors that determine who wins, and skill almost always comes in second place.

And then, on top of that, you see PVP lovers complaining so often about PVE beeing boring and about having to grind PVE in order to be competitive in PVP, and PVE lovers complaining about newbye ganking, corpse camping and similar griefing activities.

Then why are some players loving MMO PVPing so much? Enduring beeing owned while you are low level or still undergeared and then, once actually ready for PVP, fighting fights where skill is only a secondary factor does not sound too exciting to me. Specially when there are so many games out there that allow you to simply log in and fight tons of players almost inmediatelly and where skill is the main factor determining who wins.

I am not trying to be sarcastic or starting a flame war. I just don't get what's so much fun about PVP in MMOs. Honestly.

Please discuss.

tiki · December 2010

You are far from the first to say this, but here is why you are wrong.

Examples such as DAOC are a rare gem of an amazing PVP MMO. In DAOC you have many examples of out geared or out numbered groups going out and just dominating. Look up videos on Lagged Again or Free RPS. DAOC is the reason why I hold onto the faith that MMO's can have good skilled based PVP, actually its not even faith because DAOC proved it to exist.

Wolfenpride · December 2010

I guess it's one of those things where some like it, some don't. I personally agree with you though that shooters, beat-em-ups, and many other lobby games like Savage 2 make for a much more fun pvp experience for many of the reasons you listed.

nobodycool · December 2010

I actually think this is a valid question and one that needs some exploration. I personally am not a huge "action" PvP fan in general. This is to say that I do not get into the FPS games, the ones that require a huge amount of manual memorization and dexterity. I also feel it may be because I am, quite frankly terrible at such games. I do however love to do PvP in a more strategic environment, i.e. Civ, Empire, etc. I am also very good at PvP in these games for whatever reason. I suppose this says something about my expectations of my gaming experience.

I think MMO's are just to......huge to properly balance and stabilize good PvP for the most part. There is too much to take into account and there are too many mitigating circumstances, as said by the OP. Some games do a much better job than others of course, but on a whole it almost always leaves you with a sense of discouragement and dissatisfaction. This is of course only my experience with my expectations of the games I play. I would love to hear other people's opinions on the matter.

negilum · December 2010

FPSs are like table tennis, reaction speed and coordination are key. MMOs are like poker or chess, the skill is in understanding the game mechanics and using them to your advantage.

gordiflu · December 2010

Thanks for the input guys, I am really interested in your thoughts about this. I ll keep monitoring this thread. I was about to join the discussion but, I thik I ll refrain.

Ballor · December 2010

Well, in particular responding to just the title, some times, but not only mmo.
It might be given mmos for pvp WITH guild or friends may be a good thing with goals for I. E accomplishments or gear. But , I find fps or "fphacking" like mount and blade multiplayer battles to be quite fun and able to satisfy my pvp fix.

tiki · December 2010

Originally posted by gordiflu
Thanks for the input guys, I am really interested in your thoughts about this. I ll keep monitoring this thread. I was about to join the discussion but, I thik I ll refrain.

--prior to edit--

If this is a reply to me... This argument only requires one counter example to prove MMO's can be good for PVP. I agree, 99% of MMO's have had awful pvp, not even close to making it skilled based. But this argument isn't about how good are current MMO's at PVP, it is about can the MMORPG genre produce a good, skilled centered game. The answer is yes, it has happened before its just not very often.

nobodycool · December 2010

Originally posted by tiki

Originally posted by gordiflu

Thanks for the input guys, I am really interested in your thoughts about this. I ll keep monitoring this thread. I was about to join the discussion but, I thik I ll refrain.

--prior to edit--

If this is a reply to me... This argument only requires one counter example to prove MMO's can be good for PVP. I agree, 99% of MMO's have had awful pvp, not even close to making it skilled based. But this argument isn't about how good are current MMO's at PVP, it is about can the MMORPG genre produce a good, skilled centered game. The answer is yes, it has happened before its just not very often.

I guess the only retort is, how? What made DAOC so good and what makes most other MMORPG's so bad? That is the million dollar question.

nate1980 · December 2010

I don't think MMO's is good for proper PvP fun, but define proper? If I want to battle other players, I find FPS games much better suited for them. The wait times for a battle are short, and the playing field is equal. You win or lose by your skills alone, combine with team work. When you bring levels and gear into a mix, it can be the deciding factor between a win or a loss.

However, I had a blast PvPing in DAoC, which was my first MMORPG, but winning or losing wasn't dependant on your gear so much as it was team work and good strategy. Besides, I prefer siege warfare over open ganking. I didn't like the zerging around or 8 mans in DAoC. I prefered taking and defending keeps and towers. Even DAoC wasn't perfect, since levels and realm rank did make a difference, and a set of spellcrafted gear gave you an edge. So yeah, I prefer now to work together with people to overcome hard dungeons and bosses over PvP, unless a really good RvR system is in place.

Lienhart · December 2010

MMO PvP are for the carebears of true PvP games. Why do you think not a single top SSFIV/BB/SC2/GGAC/SC/*list goes on* player plays MMOs for PvP?

We can even bring TRUE player vs player into this which would be real life sports.

MMOs often undergo balance changes non-stop. Do you see SSFIV, BlazBlue, Counter-Strike, StarCraft, Team Fortress 2 (err this is a slight exception but the updates are no where near as constant as MMOs) getting a balance tweak every month? No.

MMOs cater to the casual PvP players, the day they stop is the day MMO PvP dies. So either way, if you are a skiled PvP player in other games....stick to it. The only reason why I PvP on WoW is because I have a few other friends from school and StarCraft 2 became way too taxing to maintain a top 1000 position (I have real life =P).

tiki · December 2010

Originally posted by nobodycool

Originally posted by tiki

Originally posted by gordiflu

Thanks for the input guys, I am really interested in your thoughts about this. I ll keep monitoring this thread. I was about to join the discussion but, I thik I ll refrain.

--prior to edit--

If this is a reply to me... This argument only requires one counter example to prove MMO's can be good for PVP. I agree, 99% of MMO's have had awful pvp, not even close to making it skilled based. But this argument isn't about how good are current MMO's at PVP, it is about can the MMORPG genre produce a good, skilled centered game. The answer is yes, it has happened before its just not very often.

I guess the only retort is, how? What made DAOC so good and what makes most other MMORPG's so bad? That is the million dollar question.

Good question. It all starts with the skills and spell set up. In DAOC everything is about high effectiveness with good counters. For example, the mez spell lasts for over a minute without any resists, if you cant counter this you insta lose. But the thing is that there are numerous counters to that spell, such as demez, purge, or hoping the other team messes up and hits you with an AOE on accident.

The next thing that adds to DAOC skill is that casters do massive amounts of damage, 2 casters can kill nearly any player very very fast compared to other games. But this is balanced by the extreme interrupts where if you get casted on or attacked at all your current spell will be interrupted and you cannot cast a new spell for 2 seconds. It takes strategy and total team communication for a group to lock down the other groups casters. But if you do, major advantage to you.

Many more examples of this throughout DAOC, but those are the key components. Being able to lock other players out of combat if you use strategy and communication, and being able to counter what the opposing group is doing.

Lienhart · December 2010

Originally posted by tiki

Originally posted by nobodycool

Originally posted by tiki

Originally posted by gordiflu

Thanks for the input guys, I am really interested in your thoughts about this. I ll keep monitoring this thread. I was about to join the discussion but, I thik I ll refrain.

--prior to edit--

If this is a reply to me... This argument only requires one counter example to prove MMO's can be good for PVP. I agree, 99% of MMO's have had awful pvp, not even close to making it skilled based. But this argument isn't about how good are current MMO's at PVP, it is about can the MMORPG genre produce a good, skilled centered game. The answer is yes, it has happened before its just not very often.

I guess the only retort is, how? What made DAOC so good and what makes most other MMORPG's so bad? That is the million dollar question.

Good question. It all starts with the skills and spell set up. In DAOC everything is about high effectiveness with good counters. For example, the mez spell lasts for over a minute without any resists, if you cant counter this you insta lose. But the thing is that there are numerous counters to that spell, such as demez, purge, or hoping the other team messes up and hits you with an AOE on accident.

The next thing that adds to DAOC skill is that casters do massive amounts of damage, 2 casters can kill nearly any player very very fast compared to other games. But this is balanced by the extreme interrupts where if you get casted on or attacked at all your current spell will be interrupted and you cannot cast a new spell for 2 seconds. It takes strategy and total team communication for a group to lock down the other groups casters. But if you do, major advantage to you.

Many more examples of this throughout DAOC, but those are the key components. Being able to lock other players out of combat if you use strategy and communication, and being able to counter what the opposing group is doing.

DoTA/LoL/HoN > DAoC

nobodycool · December 2010

Originally posted by tiki

Originally posted by nobodycool

Originally posted by tiki

Originally posted by gordiflu

Thanks for the input guys, I am really interested in your thoughts about this. I ll keep monitoring this thread. I was about to join the discussion but, I thik I ll refrain.

--prior to edit--

If this is a reply to me... This argument only requires one counter example to prove MMO's can be good for PVP. I agree, 99% of MMO's have had awful pvp, not even close to making it skilled based. But this argument isn't about how good are current MMO's at PVP, it is about can the MMORPG genre produce a good, skilled centered game. The answer is yes, it has happened before its just not very often.

I guess the only retort is, how? What made DAOC so good and what makes most other MMORPG's so bad? That is the million dollar question.

Good question. It all starts with the skills and spell set up. In DAOC everything is about high effectiveness with good counters. For example, the mez spell lasts for over a minute without any resists, if you cant counter this you insta lose. But the thing is that there are numerous counters to that spell, such as demez, purge, or hoping the other team messes up and hits you with an AOE on accident.

The next thing that adds to DAOC skill is that casters do massive amounts of damage, 2 casters can kill nearly any player very very fast compared to other games. But this is balanced by the extreme interrupts where if you get casted on or attacked at all your current spell will be interrupted and you cannot cast a new spell for 2 seconds. It takes strategy and total team communication for a group to lock down the other groups casters. But if you do, major advantage to you.

Many more examples of this throughout DAOC, but those are the key components. Being able to lock other players out of combat if you use strategy and communication, and being able to counter what the opposing group is doing.

Excellent examples. So what we are looking at is an importance of group communication and properly applied tactical teamwork. I think this may speak a bit to the problem with MMO's being a more difficult PvP nut to crack. Perhaps the drive for selfihsness in FPS's have caused developers to see all PvP as an extensive of this selfish style of gameplay. I mean the name itself implies a very self centered world view. FIrst Person shooter. Where as MMO's do not translate this well, just as their names imply, Massively Multiplayer.

I think we have to bring the teamwork back into MMO PvP as that seems to be the way to present it in these games.

duelkore · December 2010

A FPS is not PVP, it is FPS multiplayer. A RTS is not PVP, it is RTS multiplayer. I love both genres. I cannot think of any modern MMO, that is a non F2P, that is not PVP centered. It seems the vocal majority prefer PVP to some extent. If you do not include a solid PVP game, you are probably going F2P real quick.

Lotro(PVE)-F2P

DDO(PVE)-F2P

EQ2(PVE)-F2P

FFXIV(PVE)-F2P

VG(PVE)-Soon to be F2P or cancelled

PVP is very well suited to MMORPG. So far, if you do not have PVP, your MMO will fail. Sorta funny how that works out. I love PVP. My favorite recent MMO was WAR. I leveled to max on pure pvp. Not one mob kill until I started raiding Lost Vale.

tiki · December 2010

Originally posted by nobodycool

Originally posted by tiki

...

Good question. It all starts with the skills and spell set up. In DAOC everything is about high effectiveness with good counters. For example, the mez spell lasts for over a minute without any resists, if you cant counter this you insta lose. But the thing is that there are numerous counters to that spell, such as demez, purge, or hoping the other team messes up and hits you with an AOE on accident.

The next thing that adds to DAOC skill is that casters do massive amounts of damage, 2 casters can kill nearly any player very very fast compared to other games. But this is balanced by the extreme interrupts where if you get casted on or attacked at all your current spell will be interrupted and you cannot cast a new spell for 2 seconds. It takes strategy and total team communication for a group to lock down the other groups casters. But if you do, major advantage to you.

Many more examples of this throughout DAOC, but those are the key components. Being able to lock other players out of combat if you use strategy and communication, and being able to counter what the opposing group is doing.

Excellent examples. So what we are looking at is an importance of group communication and properly applied tactical teamwork. I think this may speak a bit to the problem with MMO's being a more difficult PvP nut to crack. Perhaps the drive for selfihsness in FPS's have caused developers to see all PvP as an extensive of this selfish style of gameplay. I mean the name itself implies a very self centered world view. FIrst Person shooter. Where as MMO's do not translate this well, just as their names imply, Massively Multiplayer.

I think we have to bring the teamwork back into MMO PvP as that seems to be the way to present it in these games.

Very true, that is the major reason why I enjoy MMO pvp over FPS pvp. I enjoy the sport like atmosphere where you talk to each other mid battle to try and evolve your strategy to counter what your opponent is doing. 100% agree, if you are looking for a selfish pvp game where your objective is to just say, omg look I got 5 head shots in a row, then MMO's are not the place to look. Being good at MMO pvp is about being able to communicate and strategize.

nobodycool · December 2010

Originally posted by duelkore
A FPS is not PVP, it is FPS multiplayer. A RTS is not PVP, it is RTS multiplayer. I love both genres. I cannot think of any modern MMO, that is a non F2P, that is not PVP centered. It seems the vocal majority prefer PVP to some extent. If you do not include a solid PVP game, you are probably going F2P real quick.

Lotro(PVE)-F2P

DDO(PVE)-F2P

EQ2(PVE)-F2P

FFXIV(PVE)-F2P

VG(PVE)-Soon to be F2P or cancelled

PVP is very well suited to MMORPG. So far, if you do not have PVP, your MMO will fail. Sorta funny how that works out. I love PVP. My favorite recent MMO was WAR. I leveled to max on pure pvp. Not one mob kill until I started raiding Lost Vale.

Entirely misguided and ill informed post. PvP by definition is simply player vs. player content. The strictest of definitions put's it as:is a type of multiplayer interactive conflict within a game between two or more live participants. That sounds like nearly every RTS and FPS on the market today. PvP is not monopolized by a genre nor does it define a genre. It is simply an element of gameplay and design that exists in many genres.

Aethaeryn · December 2010

What makes them better:

- time invested in the "character" and interacting with the world makes you have a little more involvement.

- You can do other things in the same game to take a break from PvP

What makes it worse:

- often uneven playing ground based on gear or grinding. . ie. guy who has all day to play has an edge. Of course you will be more skilled etc.

- you can't always just "jump in" to the action

I think it is interesting that the two are meeting though. MMOs are offering battle grounds and instant PvP etc. FPS are adding rank, items, "levels" if you will. I think the FPS games are getting more interesting that way but I think MMOs emulating the ease of juming in to it is a mistake. If I want to play an FPS I will do that.

Tinklepee · December 2010

PVP in mmos is the best kind of pvp when done right. Darkfall is a good example: there are consequences for dying and rewards for winning. PVP in wow and other games is just an added on after thought...

duelkore · December 2010

Originally posted by nobodycool

Originally posted by duelkore

A FPS is not PVP, it is FPS multiplayer. A RTS is not PVP, it is RTS multiplayer. I love both genres. I cannot think of any modern MMO, that is a non F2P, that is not PVP centered. It seems the vocal majority prefer PVP to some extent. If you do not include a solid PVP game, you are probably going F2P real quick.

Lotro(PVE)-F2P

DDO(PVE)-F2P

EQ2(PVE)-F2P

FFXIV(PVE)-F2P

VG(PVE)-Soon to be F2P or cancelled

PVP is very well suited to MMORPG. So far, if you do not have PVP, your MMO will fail. Sorta funny how that works out. I love PVP. My favorite recent MMO was WAR. I leveled to max on pure pvp. Not one mob kill until I started raiding Lost Vale.

Entirely misguided and ill informed post. PvP by definition is simply player vs. player content. The strictest of definitions put's it as:is a type of multiplayer interactive conflict within a game between two or more live participants. That sounds like nearly every RTS and FPS on the market today. PvP is not monopolized by a genre nor does it define a genre. It is simply an element of gameplay and design that exists in many genres.

I do not agree. PvP, to me, is more than build orders and head shots. PVP seems to be a deciding factor in the success of MMO's today. I think PVP is very well suited to MMO games. I think PVP is best suited in an MMO design. Ofcourse, I own ALOT of RTS games and FPS games.

gordiflu · December 2010

Originally posted by duelkore
A FPS is not PVP, it is FPS multiplayer. A RTS is not PVP, it is RTS multiplayer. I love both genres. I cannot think of any modern MMO, that is a non F2P, that is not PVP centered. It seems the vocal majority prefer PVP to some extent. If you do not include a solid PVP game, you are probably going F2P real quick.

Lotro(PVE)-F2P

DDO(PVE)-F2P

EQ2(PVE)-F2P

FFXIV(PVE)-F2P

VG(PVE)-Soon to be F2P or cancelled

PVP is very well suited to MMORPG. So far, if you do not have PVP, your MMO will fail. Sorta funny how that works out. I love PVP. My favorite recent MMO was WAR. I leveled to max on pure pvp. Not one mob kill until I started raiding Lost Vale.

I have been following the thread without joining the discussion, but this time I ll make an exception becouse I see some very obvious flaws in your exposition.

For starters, maybe you are not realizing that WAR, your favourite recent MMO, a PVP centric MMO, failed too. Actually, it failed massively.

Second, there is a poll in this same site asking players wether they are more into PVP or PVE. The difference was small, but the majority of players voted for PVE. You can check it out.

Finally, I can give you a massive list of F2P games that are PVP centric. Actually, the vast majority of F2P titles are PVP centric.

On a side note, when VG launched, you had faction PVP servers, FFA PVP servers and PVE servers. Guess which ones got empty first.

nobodycool · December 2010

Originally posted by duelkore

Originally posted by nobodycool

Originally posted by duelkore

A FPS is not PVP, it is FPS multiplayer. A RTS is not PVP, it is RTS multiplayer. I love both genres. I cannot think of any modern MMO, that is a non F2P, that is not PVP centered. It seems the vocal majority prefer PVP to some extent. If you do not include a solid PVP game, you are probably going F2P real quick.

Lotro(PVE)-F2P

DDO(PVE)-F2P

EQ2(PVE)-F2P

FFXIV(PVE)-F2P

VG(PVE)-Soon to be F2P or cancelled

PVP is very well suited to MMORPG. So far, if you do not have PVP, your MMO will fail. Sorta funny how that works out. I love PVP. My favorite recent MMO was WAR. I leveled to max on pure pvp. Not one mob kill until I started raiding Lost Vale.

Entirely misguided and ill informed post. PvP by definition is simply player vs. player content. The strictest of definitions put's it as:is a type of multiplayer interactive conflict within a game between two or more live participants. That sounds like nearly every RTS and FPS on the market today. PvP is not monopolized by a genre nor does it define a genre. It is simply an element of gameplay and design that exists in many genres.

I do not agree. PvP, to me, is more than build orders and head shots. PVP seems to be a deciding factor in the success of MMO's today. I think PVP is very well suited to MMO games. I think PVP is best suited in an MMO design. Ofcourse, I own ALOT of RTS games and FPS games.

Whether you agree or not doesn't change the fact that PvP is not only an element in MMO's. It exists in many different game genres. Your faulty reasoning behind the success of MMO's is also suspect. I would argue that there are many elements that go into the success or failure of an MMO. While PvP might be one of them it is nowhere near as important as a host of other things. Smoothness of launch, integrity of company, bugginess, etc.

Tinklepee · December 2010

Originally posted by gordiflu

Originally posted by duelkore

A FPS is not PVP, it is FPS multiplayer. A RTS is not PVP, it is RTS multiplayer. I love both genres. I cannot think of any modern MMO, that is a non F2P, that is not PVP centered. It seems the vocal majority prefer PVP to some extent. If you do not include a solid PVP game, you are probably going F2P real quick.

Lotro(PVE)-F2P

DDO(PVE)-F2P

EQ2(PVE)-F2P

FFXIV(PVE)-F2P

VG(PVE)-Soon to be F2P or cancelled

PVP is very well suited to MMORPG. So far, if you do not have PVP, your MMO will fail. Sorta funny how that works out. I love PVP. My favorite recent MMO was WAR. I leveled to max on pure pvp. Not one mob kill until I started raiding Lost Vale.

I have been following the thread without joining the discussion, but this time I ll make an exception becouse I see some very obvious flaws in your exposition.

For starters, maybe you are not realizing that WAR, your favourite recent MMO, a PVP centric MMO, failed too. Actually, it failed massively.

Second, there is a poll in this same site asking players wether they are more into PVP or PVE. The difference was small, but the majority of players voted for PVE. You can check it out.

Finally, I can give you a massive list of F2P games that are PVP centric. Actually, the vast majority of F2P titles are PVP centric.

On a side note, when VG launched, you had faction PVP servers, FFA PVP servers and PVE servers. Guess which ones got empty first.

To be fair the reason VGs pvp servers did so poorly was because pvp was tacked on last minute and was imbalanced.

Ballor · December 2010

The difference between mmo and/or fps/rts pvp as stated in previous posts are the end result of said battle/skirmish . True pvp should reward victors with short/long term rewards affecting(effecting?) character development out of said battles.

duelkore · December 2010

War did fail. Please name me a PVE game that is successful.

gordiflu · December 2010

Originally posted by duelkore
War did fail. Please name me a PVE game that is successful.

Since all games have both PVE and PVP nowadays, let's say a PVE game is a game where there is more PVE content than PVP one, or where there are more PVE servers and these are more populated.

If you agree with this your answer is WoW. I went for this example becouse there is no way you can dismiss that game as a failure.

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