Sandbox will always associate negatively with me , cause in true sandbox I CAN NEVER SOLO .
If that meaning is removed its no longer a sandbox for me ! .
Why can't you solo in a sandbox game? if the idea of a sandbox game is "freedom of choice" and that's your choice then I donn't see the issue.
It might take you a little longer to do things or you might have to do them a differently but I don't see why it can't be done.
He has somehow gotten in his head that a sandbox game has to be 'forced grouping' and will not let go of the idea.
I would say the essence of a sandbox game is the player's own drive to create his own experience using the tools made available by the game as opposed to a theme park game that carefully crafts the experience for a player to, er "experience".
That is why there is such a disparity with these games. The players who want sandbox games want to be plunked down in the world and provided there are ways to make money, gather materials, communicate with other players and a way for them to grow their character depending on their whim then they are fine.
Players who prefer sandbox games are in it to experience some sort of story or content. They are more interested in what the dev's have made than coming up with ways to keep themselves occupied.
This is why a friend of mine hated SWG. He felt it was a second job that he wasn't getting paid for. But he loved EQ.
For the die hard SWG player it would have been a job of love because they were truly living out another life in a virtual world as opposed to experiencing ready made stories (my sense of it).
So to him I would say soloing or grouping have nothing to do with sandbox or themepark. It's all about the experience you are looking for.
No in that case everything is a sandbox , cause if there is total freedom , even wow is a sandbox , the most aspect lets say EVE and UO and FA and SHADOW BANE is that they are very hard to solo .
This one of the concept thats strongly supported by sandbox users , if its soloable to a endcontent its no longer a sandbox .
Well lets ask those players of the proven sandbox concept , if i am right or wrong about this issue ?
Its not my idea , its always the idea i get from them in the end run .
Soloable means less interactivity , Soloable is not encouraged on sandbox gaming .
Now any of those traditional sandbox people want to comment if i am wrong or right ?
I think your misunderstanding or it may have been explained to you wrong. It's not soloing "content", as in doing a mission or quest by yourself, that sandbox fans are opposed to. It's being able to solo the game. In swg for example, you had to buy equipment from other players, get that equipment sliced by other people, get buffed by other people, get wounds healed by other people, remove battle fatigue by other people, ect... Then you could solo kill,quest, explore, craft ect.. all you wanted. Nobody cared. Then all of the resources, loot and everything else you collected out soloing could be sold back to the community or turned into items that could be used in those sevices. It's interdependence among the community we like.
What we dont care for is all of that interdependece removed so the devs can bribe people to do the crappy quests by offering all that as rewards. Because the majortiy of people wouldnt do that content solo or group without the bribes, or rewards. And devs couldnt sell more of it if no one did it. Just to prove that its crappy content, even with the bribes, people still get farmers and now dev shops to get items to make it quicker and more tolerable. Doesnt help that we've done it a 1000 times already either.
To sum it up, if you can make it to endgame content without ever depending on another person for anything, its lame for those of us who like sandbox games. And since the devs have removed 90%of what we made enjoyable from the game so they can offer it as rewards for questing, the only interdependence left is grouping hard mobs. It's not that anybody cares if you solo or group to kill something. It's just thats ALL thats left in the form of interdependence. Once you can solo hard mobs too...it's completely over. Players will be completely dependent on the devs for everything. Which only leads to a bad place for all who either make or enjoy MMo games.
Did that help or confuse you?
See you in the dream.. The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
in EQ2 you cant participate in endgame solo, because these are raids. well you can become a solo crafter, but you will get rare materials just via the auction house.
in EVE you cant participate in the endgame solo:
endgame pvp in EVE means big alliance battles. of course you can gank solo in 0.0
endgame PVE means L5 missions and perhaps wormholes ( i quit EVE 2 years ago, so ...), you cant do them all solo
endgame crafting in EVE means you need a station (POS) in 0.0. no chance solo. you are restricted to lowsec and you have to take the worse places or the guilds will kick you out.
i do not see the fundamental difference between sandboxes and theme-parks, if it comes to soloplay. some theme-parks do implement special solo content, but not all of them. and in a sandbox game there is always stuff you may solo and other content for groups or guilds only.
This is the point , endgamers in themepark rides are able to gather epics freely without raids .
Grind heroics , grind whatever grind this and that ... they wont have the best gear , they wont see raids .
But they can still play on .
They are able to get there crafting up without resources of others , they are able to do everything they want without involving other gamers , just they cannot raid or get endgame epics . they can be max level with all professions max .
This is the issue , there is not much difference into THEMEPARK and SANDBOX , other then hardcore SANDBOX enforces teaming , same way most people hate WOW/ EQ2 the endgame , those playing sandboxes are encountered with limitations earlier .
So are they more FREE ? cause they are forced to quit or adapt ... versus themepark play on who cares .
Sandbox will always associate negatively with me , cause in true sandbox I CAN NEVER SOLO .
If that meaning is removed its no longer a sandbox for me ! .
Why can't you solo in a sandbox game? if the idea of a sandbox game is "freedom of choice" and that's your choice then I donn't see the issue.
It might take you a little longer to do things or you might have to do them a differently but I don't see why it can't be done.
He has somehow gotten in his head that a sandbox game has to be 'forced grouping' and will not let go of the idea.
I would say the essence of a sandbox game is the player's own drive to create his own experience using the tools made available by the game as opposed to a theme park game that carefully crafts the experience for a player to, er "experience".
That is why there is such a disparity with these games. The players who want sandbox games want to be plunked down in the world and provided there are ways to make money, gather materials, communicate with other players and a way for them to grow their character depending on their whim then they are fine.
Players who prefer sandbox games are in it to experience some sort of story or content. They are more interested in what the dev's have made than coming up with ways to keep themselves occupied.
This is why a friend of mine hated SWG. He felt it was a second job that he wasn't getting paid for. But he loved EQ.
For the die hard SWG player it would have been a job of love because they were truly living out another life in a virtual world as opposed to experiencing ready made stories (my sense of it).
So to him I would say soloing or grouping have nothing to do with sandbox or themepark. It's all about the experience you are looking for.
No in that case everything is a sandbox , cause if there is total freedom , even wow is a sandbox , the most aspect lets say EVE and UO and FA and SHADOW BANE is that they are very hard to solo .
This one of the concept thats strongly supported by sandbox users , if its soloable to a endcontent its no longer a sandbox .
Well lets ask those players of the proven sandbox concept , if i am right or wrong about this issue ?
Its not my idea , its always the idea i get from them in the end run .
Soloable means less interactivity , Soloable is not encouraged on sandbox gaming .
Now any of those traditional sandbox people want to comment if i am wrong or right ?
I think your misunderstanding or it may have been explained to you wrong. It's not soloing "content", as in doing a mission or quest by yourself, that sandbox fans are opposed to. It's being able to solo the game. In swg for example, you had to buy equipment from other players, get that equipment sliced by other people, get buffed by other people, get wounds healed by other people, remove battle fatigue by other people, ect... Then you could solo kill,quest, explore, craft ect.. all you wanted. Nobody cared. Then all of the resources, loot and everything else you collected out soloing could be sold back to the community or turned into items that could be used in those sevices. It's interdependence among the community we like.
What we dont care for is all of that interdependece removed so the devs can bribe people to do the crappy quests by offering all that as rewards. Because the majortiy of people wouldnt do that content solo or group without the bribes, or rewards. And devs couldnt sell more of it if no one did it. Just to prove that its crappy content, even with the bribes, people still get farmers and now dev shops to get items to make it quicker and more tolerable. Doesnt help that we've done it a 1000 times already either.
To sum it up, if you can make it to endgame content without ever depending on another person for anything, its lame for those of us who like sandbox games. And since the devs have removed 90%of what we made enjoyable from the game so they can offer it as rewards for questing, the only interdependence left is grouping hard mobs. It's not that anybody cares if you solo or group to kill something. It's just thats ALL thats left in the form of interdependence. Once you can solo hard mobs too...it's completely over. Players will be completely dependent on the devs for everything. Which only leads to a bad place for all who either make or enjoy MMo games.
Did that help or confuse you?
No it helped me , cause this is the feature that confuses most people , they think sandbox is freedom .
They think SANDBOX IS WOW BUT BETER !! cause they are free to do whatever they want , able to do everything they want .
This is what youth thinks there so called sandbox is , FREEDOM of WOW with FREEDOM of a SANDBOX , totally no reliance on others then raid , in a sandbox its much harsher life .
You people painted a beter picture of what i can describe , cause sandbox has limitations .
That most people dont realise , its forced cooperations , dependancy on others , you dont quit your guild and have no penalties (like average wow kids think ) , they got to a MMO like that with wrong ideas in there head .
Thats one of the reasons EVE and other games who are more traditional sandbox mentality .
Fails so hard for the noobs , they cry about grinding cry about everything , but dont realise they are forced to commit to others.
But most of them act so tough its a SANDBOX .... wow is a sandbox !!!!! (its not to me wow is a themepark )
So in a way its FREE to do whatever you want in a way you want a sandbox , but you need to learn to cooperate !
(thank you people , for explaining sandbox beter to the youth )
of course you can do in a sandbox, what you want to do. but like in real life, without others you are limited to what a single person is able to do. build a pyramid in real life. thats the same mess like building a pyramid in minecraft. you can, but i doubt it will become the biggest one.
This is what I think of when I try to define a Sandbox vs Themepark game:
Sandbox: Devs made a world, it has a small amount of rules, players create the story. A pure sandbox would have no dev created story, and it would have very basic rules, like no hacks. Eve is a sandbox because the story is very small, you really don't have to follow the story at all. However, it isn't a pure sandbox because it has some rules, like safer zones, and the story is detailed enough to give you an idea on different factions history.
Themepark: Devs made a world, it can have a small or a ton amount of rules, players follow a story. A pure Themepark would have a very strict story, you have to follow the story, there is no black or white answer, there is nothing you can skip. Wow is a themepark because you don't really create a story, you are exploring the story Blizzard made up. However it isn't a pure themepark because you don't have to do all the story, you don't even have to deal with 1% of it if you don't want to.
of course you can do in a sandbox, what you want to do. but like in real life, without others you are limited to what a single person is able to do. build a pyramid in real life. thats the same mess like building a pyramid in minecraft. you can, but i doubt it will become the biggest one.
Yes thats the point the youth are skipping , they think sandbox is freedom of wow (and honestly the reason i am quitting wow soon ) no obligations no forced interactions , with the freedom of the world .
And leech off guilds and other organisers (like in WoW) cause they dont have to commit to anything .
But being a SANDBOX is cooler then playing a THEMEPARK .
They just want the best of both worlds , freedom of do whatever they want without obligations or consequnces .
Ive always thought of it as "do whatever the f**k you want". I mean honestly, these are many ways you can decifer this but I think of a sandbox(literally) and I make whatever I want.
Basically, your not guided on what to do and there are less contraints. This typically means the game is less forgiving.
I don't really think sandbox is a type of MMO. It is more a feature than an actual classification. The reason being is that you cannot define sandbox gameplay. It is really only description of how open-ended the game mechanics are. However, I think the game needs to have a free roaming map(s) that allow interaction with the environment.
Freedom in character development / progression. Freedom in exploration. Interactive game world: Player actions affecting the game.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
To me, a sandbox is game that provides nouns and verbs then the players write the stories.
Haha, jolly good show I do say my good sir, jolly good... Haha..
Agreed! That's a great way to put it.
Ideally we would be given space that can be influenced by the player's actions. This of course generally leads to pvp games, but there's also communal crafting and what not.
An ideal sandbox game would be just about that.. A large space filled with sand and players go about finding the various toys hidden in the sand and constructing and deconstructing this space however they see fit.
People talk about hybrid models of this. Because the majority of people like having direction to do something about something.... So have places where people have to meet certain gaming requirements (like beat up a big bad guy) and then gain access to some new neat thing to plant in the sand.
That's all it is. A setting that players have access to create and play in.
in a sandbox game the player is living his life in a virtual world
in a theme park the player is playing a role in a virtual world like an actor according to a storybook written by the devs.
there is an easy test:
- download the game and login
- do the tutorial to understand the basic mechanics
- from now on avoid all quests!
if you are still playing the game after 100 hours playtime, this is a sandbox
that does not mean, that sandbox games could not have quests. it is just appropriate for this test.
PS: this test could fail in games with dynamic-event system.
A good definition, that's why I didn't took a single quest in Darkfall, but we took over half the map within the Shadowbane alliance on the EU server in the beginning, he-he. And a lot of old SB guilds were not even part of it including LoD, 'cause they owned other locations in the same world at the time.
That's a sandbox, you can decide what do to in-game without plot/quest guidance with experience/item rewards, and it must feel like a risk as well while playing, 'cause without risks it tend to get boring fast. That's why I wait on Shadowbane emulator - you can solo to endgame lv. 75 in less than 7 hours, and your guild can conquer the world within an alliance/guild. So a 'game' which is player driven is a true sandbox in my opinion.
Comments
I think your misunderstanding or it may have been explained to you wrong. It's not soloing "content", as in doing a mission or quest by yourself, that sandbox fans are opposed to. It's being able to solo the game. In swg for example, you had to buy equipment from other players, get that equipment sliced by other people, get buffed by other people, get wounds healed by other people, remove battle fatigue by other people, ect... Then you could solo kill,quest, explore, craft ect.. all you wanted. Nobody cared. Then all of the resources, loot and everything else you collected out soloing could be sold back to the community or turned into items that could be used in those sevices. It's interdependence among the community we like.
What we dont care for is all of that interdependece removed so the devs can bribe people to do the crappy quests by offering all that as rewards. Because the majortiy of people wouldnt do that content solo or group without the bribes, or rewards. And devs couldnt sell more of it if no one did it. Just to prove that its crappy content, even with the bribes, people still get farmers and now dev shops to get items to make it quicker and more tolerable. Doesnt help that we've done it a 1000 times already either.
To sum it up, if you can make it to endgame content without ever depending on another person for anything, its lame for those of us who like sandbox games. And since the devs have removed 90%of what we made enjoyable from the game so they can offer it as rewards for questing, the only interdependence left is grouping hard mobs. It's not that anybody cares if you solo or group to kill something. It's just thats ALL thats left in the form of interdependence. Once you can solo hard mobs too...it's completely over. Players will be completely dependent on the devs for everything. Which only leads to a bad place for all who either make or enjoy MMo games.
Did that help or confuse you?
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
This is the point , endgamers in themepark rides are able to gather epics freely without raids .
Grind heroics , grind whatever grind this and that ... they wont have the best gear , they wont see raids .
But they can still play on .
They are able to get there crafting up without resources of others , they are able to do everything they want without involving other gamers , just they cannot raid or get endgame epics . they can be max level with all professions max .
This is the issue , there is not much difference into THEMEPARK and SANDBOX , other then hardcore SANDBOX enforces teaming , same way most people hate WOW/ EQ2 the endgame , those playing sandboxes are encountered with limitations earlier .
So are they more FREE ? cause they are forced to quit or adapt ... versus themepark play on who cares .
this is what i plan do in every game i play, before i consider to join a guild. sandbox or theme-park, it works, so what?
played: Everquest I (6 years), EVE (3 years)
months: EQII, Vanguard, Siedler Online, SWTOR, Guild Wars 2
weeks: WoW, Shaiya, Darkfall, Florensia, Entropia, Aion, Lotro, Fallen Earth, Uncharted Waters
days: DDO, RoM, FFXIV, STO, Atlantica, PotBS, Maestia, WAR, AoC, Gods&Heroes, Cultures, RIFT, Forsaken World, Allodds
No it helped me , cause this is the feature that confuses most people , they think sandbox is freedom .
They think SANDBOX IS WOW BUT BETER !! cause they are free to do whatever they want , able to do everything they want .
This is what youth thinks there so called sandbox is , FREEDOM of WOW with FREEDOM of a SANDBOX , totally no reliance on others then raid , in a sandbox its much harsher life .
You people painted a beter picture of what i can describe , cause sandbox has limitations .
That most people dont realise , its forced cooperations , dependancy on others , you dont quit your guild and have no penalties (like average wow kids think ) , they got to a MMO like that with wrong ideas in there head .
Thats one of the reasons EVE and other games who are more traditional sandbox mentality .
Fails so hard for the noobs , they cry about grinding cry about everything , but dont realise they are forced to commit to others.
But most of them act so tough its a SANDBOX .... wow is a sandbox !!!!! (its not to me wow is a themepark )
So in a way its FREE to do whatever you want in a way you want a sandbox , but you need to learn to cooperate !
(thank you people , for explaining sandbox beter to the youth )
well, now i got your point.
of course you can do in a sandbox, what you want to do. but like in real life, without others you are limited to what a single person is able to do. build a pyramid in real life. thats the same mess like building a pyramid in minecraft. you can, but i doubt it will become the biggest one.
played: Everquest I (6 years), EVE (3 years)
months: EQII, Vanguard, Siedler Online, SWTOR, Guild Wars 2
weeks: WoW, Shaiya, Darkfall, Florensia, Entropia, Aion, Lotro, Fallen Earth, Uncharted Waters
days: DDO, RoM, FFXIV, STO, Atlantica, PotBS, Maestia, WAR, AoC, Gods&Heroes, Cultures, RIFT, Forsaken World, Allodds
This is what I think of when I try to define a Sandbox vs Themepark game:
Sandbox: Devs made a world, it has a small amount of rules, players create the story. A pure sandbox would have no dev created story, and it would have very basic rules, like no hacks. Eve is a sandbox because the story is very small, you really don't have to follow the story at all. However, it isn't a pure sandbox because it has some rules, like safer zones, and the story is detailed enough to give you an idea on different factions history.
Themepark: Devs made a world, it can have a small or a ton amount of rules, players follow a story. A pure Themepark would have a very strict story, you have to follow the story, there is no black or white answer, there is nothing you can skip. Wow is a themepark because you don't really create a story, you are exploring the story Blizzard made up. However it isn't a pure themepark because you don't have to do all the story, you don't even have to deal with 1% of it if you don't want to.
-I want a Platformer MMO
Yes thats the point the youth are skipping , they think sandbox is freedom of wow (and honestly the reason i am quitting wow soon ) no obligations no forced interactions , with the freedom of the world .
And leech off guilds and other organisers (like in WoW) cause they dont have to commit to anything .
But being a SANDBOX is cooler then playing a THEMEPARK .
They just want the best of both worlds , freedom of do whatever they want without obligations or consequnces .
And still make the biggest pyramid .
http://hubpages.com/hub/Sandbox-MMO
Sandbox-MMO
Ive always thought of it as "do whatever the f**k you want". I mean honestly, these are many ways you can decifer this but I think of a sandbox(literally) and I make whatever I want.
Basically, your not guided on what to do and there are less contraints. This typically means the game is less forgiving.
I don't really think sandbox is a type of MMO. It is more a feature than an actual classification. The reason being is that you cannot define sandbox gameplay. It is really only description of how open-ended the game mechanics are. However, I think the game needs to have a free roaming map(s) that allow interaction with the environment.
Freedom in character development / progression. Freedom in exploration. Interactive game world: Player actions affecting the game.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
To me, a sandbox is game that provides nouns and verbs then the players write the stories.
This^ Bit above test is more or less what I would say.
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
Haha, jolly good show I do say my good sir, jolly good... Haha..
This is not a game.
Agreed! That's a great way to put it.
Ideally we would be given space that can be influenced by the player's actions. This of course generally leads to pvp games, but there's also communal crafting and what not.
An ideal sandbox game would be just about that.. A large space filled with sand and players go about finding the various toys hidden in the sand and constructing and deconstructing this space however they see fit.
People talk about hybrid models of this. Because the majority of people like having direction to do something about something.... So have places where people have to meet certain gaming requirements (like beat up a big bad guy) and then gain access to some new neat thing to plant in the sand.
That's all it is. A setting that players have access to create and play in.
A good definition, that's why I didn't took a single quest in Darkfall, but we took over half the map within the Shadowbane alliance on the EU server in the beginning, he-he.
And a lot of old SB guilds were not even part of it including LoD, 'cause they owned other locations in the same world at the time.
That's a sandbox, you can decide what do to in-game without plot/quest guidance with experience/item rewards, and it must feel like a risk as well while playing, 'cause without risks it tend to get boring fast. That's why I wait on Shadowbane emulator - you can solo to endgame lv. 75 in less than 7 hours, and your guild can conquer the world within an alliance/guild. So a 'game' which is player driven is a true sandbox in my opinion.
The Shadowbane Emulator (SBEmu) http://www.shadowbaneemulator.com