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Thinking of playing Guild Wars, how much actual skill is there in PvP?
Soonerfan101
Member Posts: 13
in Guild Wars
Do PvP contests require a vast amount of skill, is it all luck, how important are the items? Ive read that there are over 100 skills to unlock, how much time is required to become competitive PvP, or do you even need most of those skills? Any insight would be appreciated, thanks!
Comments
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion.cfm/load/forums/loadforum/511/loadthread/39902/setstart/1/loadclass/175
You can be competitive right off the bat. But, honestly, to be the absolute best (I'm talking pro-gamer best) you will want the vast majority of skills unlocked so you will have more flexibility when putting together team builds.
I'm hoping fansites will start posting locations of quests for skills and that it will speed up the process.
There is something like 400+ skills in all. That, combined with dual-class characters, combined with team-builds, offers a huge array of possibilities. Items do make some difference, but nothing even close to the "godlies" of most games. Even the best of the best items have only a few points difference between anything else. What's more important is the power of your skills based on how you have your attributes allocated. Set up your attributes as you see fit, and then choose a selection of skills to use in your skillbar. You may end up with 200 skills, but when it comes time for action, you have only 8 active (on the bar). Pick skills that will be useful to you, or to your team mates, in the match/mission you're going to be doing.
The Obsidian Kings
Put together a good skill set and know how to use it effectively. Much better than relying on "luck".
The Obsidian Kings
A lot, lot of skill is involved. You'll find people playing Guild Wars that played Warcraft3 competitively (two members of the guild Fianna got to #23 on the 2v2 ladder), Starcraft competitively (the guild Club G is made up of a bunch of retired pro-Starcraft players), Counter-Strike competively (supposedly one of the top players in Poland is on Club G too).
There isn't much 'twitch' skill involved though. Timing is important (as was discussed in that link I provided), but not really how quick your reflexes are, interruption-based Mesmers being the sole exception.
Every thing is group related. Most of the early arenas are places where random groups of 4 are thrown together to fight random groups of 4 to the death. There is a 6v6 Capture the Flag map, there is a pick-your-team 4v4 Deathmatch with resurrections every 2 minutes unless you kill the enemy's Priest, and then there is Tombs.
Tomb of the Premevial Kings is a 8v8 pick-your-team 8-level tournament style with different objectives on each map. In this place, some maps are Capture the Flag [they call it a relic] while others are King of the Hill, and some are straight Deathmatches. Some maps start with 6 groups of 8 players fighting against each other in pairs, then a 3-way 8v8v8 deathmatch among the initial victors of the pairings. The final level in this tournament-style is like this -- the coveted Hall of Heroes -- starting with 8v8 and 8v8 and the two winners come down to face those that are currently holding the Hall of Heroes in a 8v8v8 Capture the Hill type of match. The winners of the match have their guild's name (or if no guild has the majority in the group, the leader's name) displayed to the entire gaming population. This indicates who can enter the high end-PvE content, the Underworld.
However, the pride and joy of Guild Wars is, understandably, the Guild versus Guild matches. A chest for the winners of the Hall of Heroes provides them with a Celestial Sigil, which is used to create a Guild Hall. Can't win HoH? Buy it from someone who can. From the Guild Hall you stage GvG matches that show up on the official ladder: http://ladder.guildwars.com Which Guild Hall you purchase determines which map you will fight on during GvG matches; there's a 50/50 chance of you fighting them in theirs, or them fighting you in yours. All the maps have a central flag stand that gives morale boosts (+%hps +%energy capped at +10% total) for whoever captures it for 2 minutes at a time. One map has a stationary catapult that sieges the enemy Guild Hall. One map has a moat of tar surrounding it. One map is in an icy area with frozen lakes and huge gates in the center that you can open and close via levers to control the battle.
The only people who will blame pot luck will be those who are unable to accept that they aren't skilled tactically, or if they simply don't understand how the game works.
Remember that this is a team based game, nobody is a one man army (except the war/mnk), get in to a good PvP guild and you will have alot more fun.
Read some forums before starting a new char to get a basic understanding about every class, some combinations are better than others, and its a good idea to specialize.
A lot of the skill required comes from knowing how to play your character and how well your team works together. I've been in some horrendous teams and then again I've been in teams that just clicked wonderfully. Everyone knew their role and were good at it. I've made it all the way through the Tombs with a team of 6 before.
Richard J. Cox
"There were much of the beautiful, much of the wanton, much of the bizarre, something of the terrible, and not a little of that which might have excited disgust."
Well, my wife and I play together. We are both level 7. Last night we took on a PvP battle and the other party was levels 8-10. We won.
Skill is a lot of factor.
I don't think you realy get this game.. It called Guild Wars becouse you are supouse to fight for a guild. Having a guild with 8 skilled player will kick every thing.. And when i say skill, i mean every thing this game is about..
I don't think this is the game for you.. Go and play WoW or some thing, Where skill realy is required, or not..
I bow to your superior wisdom and reasoning ability. Why didn't I see it that way? because it's non-existent... of course!
Please enjoy your zerg fest MMO's because that's all else there is on the PvP market. Guild Wars sets you against a set number of people, those with superiors tactics win and that's that.
Let's see, your guild was ranked in the top 15 ... so they (including yourself) must have been really good at being "not really skilled in anything".
So you played as an alpha tester. Woopteedoo! Apparently you're not happy with the game. If you're not playing it anymore, why don't you move on rather than belittling anyone who posts about Guild Wars.
Your statement, "Its for players like you that actually aren't really skilled in anything", makes you sound like an arrogant jackass.
for an MMO this game requires THE MOST skill to PvP well. it's controlled(even teams, etc)
it doesn't get better.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it."
Brad McQuaid
Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc.
Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
www.vanguardsoh
Point 1: You're not the best Guild Wars player in the universe if your team build isn't up to par.
Crashes do suck, but they suck in any competitive online game. "forgets to bring hex removal" see Point 1.
Some football teams have trouble against teams with a good running game while other tams have trouble with teams with a good passing game. Do these facts mean the game of football is skill-less because "its as if the battle was already decided before the game was even played"? Is there no skilled player on the teams aren't as good against certain opposing teams?
It isn't entirely a twitch game. There is strategy involved. This isn't Counter-Strike. Have you ever played Warcraft3 competitively? How much of that game is determined by your plan going into the match-up? See Point 1.
Incorrect. Even though the game is brand-spanking new, I know from my time in Alpha certain people on opposing teams who can play certain professions very, very well. You probably need to play the same teams over and over and get to know who is playing what.
This is probably your most bogus statement in the entire piece, and it is in your concluding paragraph which is sad. Michael Jordon couldn't play a single professional basketball game by himself. He depended on others to play with him. It was a team game. As for "having the right build", see Point 1.
Post #2.
My guild has beaten this strategy 3 out of the 4 times we faced it in Alpha. One time using Cry of Frustration, one time using Spike Trap, and one time using Primal Echoes. We only lost the first match when it was our first time seeing it. Had we been more 'skilled' we likely could have won that one too. It isn't like we were trying too hard during an Alpha Test though. There's a number of problems with this build, which I don't really care to get into.
Oh noes!
This is a horrible idea. When your pets die (or are resurrected) your entire bar is blacked out for a few seconds. As a Monk, this is not what you want.
Every team should have Protective Spirit. While it isn't as strong a counter as some of the other skills I mentioned, it should be much more common.
My guild accepts challenges. Will be a few more weeks before we're doing GvG though.
If there are so many builds that can be used to dominate the game without regard for skill, why did your guild finish in the top 15? Let me guess, you're a member of n0 that had their initial build nerfed not long before the BWE and then had problems getting enough people together during the weekend and ended with a somewhat poor showing. Am I right? Even if I'm not, you sound incredibly bitter and tell yourself that it isn't based on skill to make up for something. Apparently you think your guild should be higher than what it was?
I think you will come to realize just how important personal skill is in this game as it progresses. You'll try taking the exact same team build as teams in the top 5 yet time after time you'll find you cannot do as well as them. I can tell you right now that KOR is more skilled than my guild. Sure, we beat them once, but how many NBA teams go undefeated in a season? Do the Bulls have to go undefeated before Michael Jordon is a skilled player and before basketball is a game of skill?Well no matter how ignorant a strategy may be (8 monks) there is a way to counter that (many ways actually...), and that requires skills.
Also, no matter what strategy was skillfully chosen (or copied from another team build which kicked your arse) there is certainly some skill involved to put this strategy in practice.
PS: Put Michael Jordan in an amateur team and I´m sure that this team will loose every match in a professional league. The player can make a difference only if the team is up to the standards of the competition.
No more flaming guys... peace peace
Admit it, you're not even in Alpha, are you? And feel free to talk all you want about how your PvP build beat repeatedly mine and I was angry. Go ahead and tell us what skills you were using, what I was using, what was said.
In case you missed it, I have never said someone greatly skilled will never lose. In fact, I've been arguing the opposite. Remember my comment about the Bulls not going undefeated?
I've actually played a Mo/R with a pet. It wasn't a very good build.
Forgive me bad English that you couldnt understand my ramblings. Anyway, let me rephrase my entire post with some adjustments.
Originally posted by Salahuddin
Well, this is not intended to be a flame, but this is not argument for GW being skilled AND I've already refuted in in the previous post. But just to reiterate, I NEVER SAID, that being skilled means ONE PLAYER can make a team win. However, I SAID that in a truly skilled game, the individual skill of a player makes the major impact... even in a team game. A bunch of college players with great teamwork won't beat 8 NBA allstars that have never played together. Similarly, Michael Jordan on an amateur team WON'T win a match against a professional team... but he will STILL BE the best player in the NBA. You'll know it when he dunks over your head, blocks your shot, hits a 3 pointer, makes an incredible pass etc.
In GW... too many other factors are in play that overshadow your individual skill. If you're playing GW, you can't even make an impact... you'll never make an awesome kill (you don't even make a kill in GW really), or make a great save or do ANYTHING based on your individual skill. Michael Jordan on an amateur team, although he would likely lose, would still school other opponents on the court... and there would always be a CHANCE that if he was good enough, to win. This goes for any sport with skill.
Based on that statement, we are assuming that, one player, no matter how skilled he is will not be able to bring the team to victory, if the whole team is not up to par, am I still on the right track?
So now comes the part where you talk about major impact. Exactly what sort of major impact are you trying to talk about in guild wars? Example, in a normal GvG, a mesmer managed to cast backfire and/or diversion, after that cast epidemic on the monks. Would this situation not be a major impact thereby disabling the enemies monks? I mean, sure, there is a possibility that you might still lose the match, but knocking/taking out the monks still would have made an incredible impact, would it not? There is skill involved here of course, the mesmer would have to know about when the monk is about to cast the next heal before interupting it or catching it with quick response. There are thousands of possibilities for skills to be involved and making an impact. The real question is, how do you see it as a major impact, perhaps by major impact, you mean that a comeback was made even after losing 1 or 2 team members. In some situations, this might be possible, though not always. But like you yourself said, being skilled alone in a weak team is not going to really help much either. The opponents and guildmates might noticed that you made an impact, but it was still a lost. So how does that fare?
And I disagree that an electronic game being compared to a real-life sport. Take basketball for example, you said Michael Jordan can school the players and might have a chance to win. In those situations, they would have at least played for some time for Michael Jordan perhaps see a weakness somewhere and to be able to rectify it. The coach can call a timeout during the game to discuss strategy. But for Guildwars in GvG or PvP, not everyone has voicechat service. And typing words out in the battlefield to discuss a sudden change of strategy would waste precious valuable time. Therefore, most players would have to rely on own personal skill, to perceive the situation, try to anticipate enemies next move, cast spells/skills to counter it and so on and so forth.
Saying your team forgot hex removals is completly skill-less.
Please sell the game, cancel your alpha player existance and stop flaming about it.
lala
Well, I don't believe I actually ever said I want to be Michael Jordan or that GW actually "sucks." I said it wasn't BASED on player skill. Again, I didn't say it didn't INVOLVE player skill, I said it wasn't BASED on player skill. ArenaNet specifically says Guild Wars is a game BASED on PLAYER SKILL btw.
Because GW is akin to "tug of war" where everyone is fairly weak (although some builds and classes can be weaker than others). In such a match, if one or two players on your team falls down, your team will lose no matter what you do... simply because the other team tripped up two of your players. You can never train yourself enough or get skilled enough to actually do anything about it.
You will find, time and time again in GW that when a team is outnumbered, if a team's healer falls, or if one team doesn't have a counter to the opposing teams build, or if some number of situations happen... either you or your opponent will have NO CHANCE at winning.
You'll play game after game the EXACT same way, and you'll win some and lose some. Your prebuild and team organization make the biggest impact in the game... your individual skill ends up meaning very little (provided you know how to play). There is no equivalent in GW to games based on skill, like a skilled jump shot in basketball, a skilled defensive play, a skilled pass... etc. You are COMPLETELY dependent on your team to do anything right.
And just to clarify what I mean by "team dependence," in tug-of-war you're essentially COMPLETELY dependent on your team to win if everyone is fairly equal. In a game like basketball, you ARE ALSO dependent on your team to win... but individual skill is the most determining factor. That is why the NBA is made up of world class basketball players, not just people with good teamwork. Star players on a poor team still make an impact.
There ARE NO star players in tug-of-war though. You can argue all you want that it takes skill... in how you hold the rope, how you plant your feet, what shoes you wear, how far back you have to lean, how you want to position your team. In the end... if one or two of your players slip up, you'll lose.
This is what I mean by not being able to make a significant impact in GW and it NOT being based on individual skill.
This was just an example. I was implying that there are no skilled plays in GW, killing being ONE example common to many games. First off, if you GvG with any guild which has any idea what they are doing, you won't be able to kill anyone without the focus firepower of your team. The same goes for you... no one can kill you alone. In the end, no one ever ends up really killing anyone in end level PvP. Its all about what skills your team has equipped and the ability of your team to work together that determines the outcome. The role of your individual skill is limited.
Because if you compare GW to another video game, all the fanboys will jump down your throat and tell you that game you used for comparison sucks. We all tend to accept that sports games like basketball are based on individual skill and teamwork, so it provides an undisputable baseline from which to prove my point.
Now, if ArenaNet and all the fanboys said GW was a game BASED on teamwork or team skills, I wouldn't have an issue with that. But they both claim its based on individual skill, when its NOT. And, you can argue all day and night that it is... but, in the end, it will be all talk because there is NO OBJECTIVE MEASURE that any individual has any skill whatsover. Nor can there EVER be one, because it is essentially non-existent.
Even when you play GW right now, people will claim to be skilled... you're friend will say you are skilled, you'll tell you're friend he is skilled. Everyone becomes an expert in the game by word of mouth only. And you can't argue that the "ladder" is in any way representative of individual skill because rock-paper-scissors can have a ladder. Not to mention that any guild can have players who don't even PvP.
Its possible that people might prefer this type of game... But I would argue that if you are TRULY COMPETITIVE, you'd want the ability to stand out amongst the crowd. You want your skill, not your mouth, to do the talking for you. In GW right now... mostly mouth and little skill. Take Bollinha for example.
Thanks man, you´ve made a lot of things clearer now. In short the game is based on team skills not individual skills... I´ll keep that in mind when I start pvping
Having played it only a few hours, I must say GW is very enjoyable... at first it all seems a bit much but once you nail down your favorite character its ALOT of fun...
I also created a PVP only char to check out the best end-game combo for myself, totally awesome and thrilling fights
two thumbs up! 
now to find out where Sarah (Gwen's mom) was... I'm sure I saw her somewhere!
Salahuddin, i don't play GW and therefor i don't know anything about this game, but somewhere in ur posts u did mentioned about going to play games ( MMO's ) that require personal skill.
What i would love to find out is what MMO will require personal skill the way u describe cause i can't think of a single one that is curently on market that uses ur ( and mine too) definition of SKILL.