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Deep Game?
Are there any games out there, that offer some deep experiences? Things that take time to develop, take research, and take a little bit of intelligence to do?
I'm not talking about EVE or Perpetuum. I've been an EVE player since launch and I can't stomach Perpetuum.
Basically, what I'm looking for is a game like AC1/2, Fallout 1-4, or something of that nature that is constantly playable, but there are alot of things to work towards in the game. In contrast to games like WoW or Aion, where there really isn't much to the game and nothing but a bunch of randomness with a single central goal.
I have tried almost every Pay to Play game out there, so what I guess I'm looking for is something in the F2P market. I have played quite a few F2P games in the past that were like what I'm talking about, so I know they exist.
http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/show/all/sCol/rankHype/sOrder/desc
On that link (sorting all games by Rating/Hype). I have played every single one from Asheron's Call to Perpetuum. I also know that Darkfall is a pretty popular game on this site, and I do not like that game at all. Darkfall and WoW are the opposite of what I'm asking for in this thread. They are both very shallow, very narrow, linear progression games.
I would also love a randomized loot based dungeon crawler, if there are any of those left. Such as Mu Online, Torchlight, AC, or Diablo 2. This can offer some of the depth I am craving.
Comments
In Darkfall, you progress from point A to point B, with no real deviation. No real reason to do this, no real reason to do that. You start at 1 and you progress to maxed out in everything. Everyone is the same, everyone does the same thing and has the same goal. On the surface, it seems like it has alot to offer. However, once you start playing you quickly find out that this is not the case.
I never said Torchlight is a deep game, only that the randomized loot can help satisfy what I'm looking for.
I am open to Single player games as well, unfortunately I can't think of any more of those to play either. There are a few I can think of that I haven't played, but there are reasons I haven't. Most important is that I do not really like fantasy based single player games, such as Dragon Age, the Witcher or Oblivion.
There's hundreds great strategy games of all sorts. I don't play much else than those and EVE. Europa Universalis III, Dwarf Fortress, Civilization IV, Distant Worlds, Rise of Nations, Master of Orion, Dominions 3 and a lot war games I won't list. MMORPG's are better for just enjoying them for the social interaction part and ignoring the rest. (Well, EVE's an exception) A bunch of strategy games fills that hole of thoughtfulness and deep gameplay, for me anyway.
E: I notice you list several newer games. Ignore them for most part. There's good RPG's from +6 years ago, and games like Deus Ex and Thief.
What war games have you played recently that are good? I haven't seen a good one recently. I like EU3, which can be crazy deep!
**Edit** Just remember the name of the last great Wargame I played.. The Operational Art of War
Gary Grigsby's War in the East was just released a while ago. I kinda meant wargames in broader sense, like Combat Mission and Close Combat, as well.
With P2P there is Wurm, with F2P there is Mabinogi.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
I could never get into Wurm, don't ask me why, because I honestly don't know. As much as it pains me to say it, I think it's just one of those games that the graphics turn me off. Not necessarily the quality, but their style. I have tried to play many times, but I've never stuck around.
However, Mabinogi looks like it's exactly what I'm looking for, as long as the community is fairly decent.
Edit:
I just loaded up Wurm and I remember why I don't like it. I get badly disoriented in first person only games.
what is wurm? or its just typo of Worms? i played it before kinda cute though but playing it alone makes it boring but when in group its very fun.
The way you can modify your character in anarchy online is best in the industry still,me thinks.
Generation P
http://www.wurmonline.com/
It's not, but the game itself is fairly decent.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
Umm, wtf?
I played Darkfall for a relatively short time, and it had a lot of flaws, but being linear was not one of them. I started off in a very small alliance that joined a larger small alliance. The only thing we had in common was RP-esque Alfar supremacy. Unfortunately, the only advantage to racial factions is being able visit the racial capital NPC city which was on the ass other end of the world. And most of us were red anyway, so we just shot ourselves in the foot. That's neither here nor there, however. The problem was over half our alliance was nancies who hid in their city doing nothing and/or gobbling up everyone around us so we had no one to kill without going to the ass end other side of the world. Then land got contested and they giggled while one of the other useful allies lost their city. Something about them deserving it for making a bunch of enemies. Tensions flared up. Mercenaries came in. Afgans, Blood, and a bunch of Russian crazies. Then we had a civil war that left one city on the continent standing. All that happened in the span of just a few weeks in one small corner of the world.
After that, we moved back up the mainland to another alliance. Had ourselves some awesome fighting, picked up slaughtering Coalition of the Chilling now that we didn't have nancies telling us we coudn't attack them. Had ourselves another war of asset destruction while the larger powers that be sat around quibbling over their precious cities and wringing their hands. We got involved in the more global war between LoD and Blood. Good times. I quit after oh, three or four months of playing I guess it was. Magic was just beginning to become semi-common among the powergamers when I quit, so whenever that was.
If you're idea of non-linear means chasing random purples, then yes Darkfall is linear. By any other definition you'll have trouble finding a less linear game. You pick your line in Darkfall and then it is subjected to the interactions of the rest of the players on the server. Compare that to your typical themepark. Sure, there a few arbitrarily established rails you can follow that run in parallel to one another, but they all arrive at the same destination.
Malhavok, I must disagree with you. Darkfall is extremely linear in terms of character development.
Both the item system and the skill system are very linear in darkfall. There is no variation with a group of weapons. They just get more powerful as the rank increases, and for all the different skins, they all have the same stats within each rank.
The skill system is the same way. You have your basic weapon skill and then that weapons mastery. What about all the different sub-skills and sub-sub skills? There are none. Eve-online is an example of a game that has a robust skill and item system. Darkfall is an example of a game that has a very limited item and skill system. There is very little variation amongst players in Darkfall, there is a huge variation amongst players in Eve.
What makes Darkfall even more linear is that players leave town/their city and be able to do everything. So they do, and this makes the game feel even more limited.
OP: I know you said FPS games make you feel disoriented, but if you can stomach it, then Borderlands was a really good game.
I would also look in to Afterworld. It seems like it's going to be somewhat like a terristrial version of Eve-online but with a more twitch-based approach to combat. There is a huge emphasis on the economy since it's a real-cash economy sort of game. While that might be a turn off to people, I figure it's at least worth a look into since there's no cost to download and play. I will mention that the graphics are pretty much crap, but there are screenshots on the website of what the game is supposed to look like when they implement the graphics/world update sometime next year.
You might also want to look into Dawntide. I don't know how that game is progressing since I haven't played it in months.
--------
"Chemistry: 'We do stuff in lab that would be a felony in your garage.'"
The most awesomest after school special T-shirt:
Front: UNO Chemistry Club
Back: /\OH --> Bad Decisions
Linear in that skills progress from 0 to 100 and you can max (almost) every skill? Both EVE and Darkfall are equally linear in that regard. EVE has more skills which makes its character development more complex, but not less linear. Everything is less complex than EVE. Both have far more branches on their "linear" skill/ability progression tree than a game like WoW. As far as items, Darkfall is weak in the fat loots department. The crafting system similarly sucks. On the other hand, crafters have a point. The best items are crafted, not dropped, and full loot and item degredation mean crafting isn't totally irrelevant as it is in most other games (EVE being a notable exception).
Fat loots and ubar character aren't the reason to play games EVE or Darkfall. If that's the only reason you have to play a game, then going back to WoW is a good idea. Nobody runs the same instance over a hundred times because its fun. They run it because it is the means to an end. That end, of course, being character development. In contrast, character development in a sand box is the means to some end you define yourself not the end itself. No one plays EVE so they can log in once or twice a month to select a new skill to train.
QFE. However, AO doesn't suit his dislike for "I'm going from point a to point b without any reason for doing so," as the game is really just about grinding and loot grinding. Fun, yes, and I love AO to death, but I don't think it's what he's really looking for. Worth a try though if you can get over the graphics being ancient.
No.
Darkfall is the same concept any 'themepark' - grind your skills up to unlock game content and 'progress' through the game - from low grade items to high grade items, from low rank skills to higher rank skills, etc.
EVE Online, on the other hand takes different approach. The game is not based on any progression at all. Larger('better') ships, despite they require skill points spent in smaller ships are not better nor they stand for any progression. They are just different. Different in use, production resources, manufacturing process, different in skill point requirements.
tldr:
In Darkfall you progress towards 'better', in EVE you do not progress, all is just tools.
Wow, so I can just login to Eve and pvp with the big boys the 1st day? Awesome... its good to hear there is no progression in eve!!!
Remember Old School Ultima Online
Pretty much.
It works vice versa as well. 'Big boys' often fly very basic ships in PVP.
*head explodes*
Remember Old School Ultima Online
Accounts that are made in the same day they are used, is a well known tactic. Well, it used to be anyway. Still, many people keep characters that have no or little training time on them, for various uses.
The "big boy" ships are called Carriers. This is not a coincidence that they bear a strong resemblance to the way real life Aircraft Carriers are used. It takes a fleet of smaller ships to keep an Aircraft Carrier going and thousands of people. In EVE it takes a fleet of smaller ships and hundreds of people to keep a Carrier going. During wartime, an Aircraft Carrier by itself would not last very long, despite it's immense power, many smaller ships would take it down rather quickly. However, with a large enough fleet, it is almost invincible.
I have been playing since 2004 and I have never flown a Carrier in EVE, nor do I ever have the desire to. I fly ships that can be trained within 3 months. As a matter of fact, come to think of it. I can fly just about every major combat ship that is not a Carrier or T2 Battleship. I can only fly a small handful of T2 Battleships and could probably count how many times I've actually been in one on a single hand.
The "big boys" in EVE are not the guys who can hit the hardest. They are the guys who are extremely versatile. A new combat character only progresses vertically for the first few months. Then the progression afterwards is all horizontal.
As far as this thread goes, I've actually picked up Xsyon. Not too impressed, I knew the game was mostly unfinished, but I thought there was just a little bit more to do. I remember reading posts 6 months ago on various forums, that said give it 6months and it will have alot more. It may have alot more, but I still see it having another year in development at least. Unless, the developers have a whole lot done and are just ironing out kinks. However, I do not think this is the case. I am pretty sure that 6months after projected release, the game is still in Alpha. It feels very much like nothing more than client and server testing, no real game testing because there is hardly anything to do.
To me a Beta means the game is just about finished, but not all the features are in yet.
And the "big boys" in Darkfall very seldom used anything above r40 gear in Darkfall as well. Exactly what did I "unlock" by going from 50 2H sword (which took a couple days to get) to 100 2H sword and 88 2H mastery (which took months)? I used the same newbie to r40 2H swords, I used the same two weapon styles, I went to the same places in the world and killed the same people and the same mobs. The only difference was I hit for a few points more damage and had a few more points of stamina/HP than I did before. And by a few I mean about 20-30% stronger than a freshly created character if we were both using r40 gear which was easy to get.
Contrast that to EVE where a fresh character can fly one ship that sucks ass and no one ever uses for anything ever. Frigates don't take long and can get you into PvP as a tackler and be effective at it in a few months. You won't kill anything and you'll die whenever anything looks at you, but hey you're still participating even if only as an annoying fly that lives only as long as no one bothers targetting it.
Character progression is just flat out not as important in Darkfall. Otherwise, it's very similar to EVE, just with less scope and effect. A lot less.
No, it isn't similar at all as I explained above.
Yes, except no one with half a brain buys your "it's just different" bullshit. I mean clearly doing 15% more damage with all weapon turrets is "just different, not better" than not doing 15% more damage. I certainly don't see any progression in doing more damage with the same weapon (/sarcasm). Who could possibly think that doing more damage per hit while firing faster while consuming less energy with the same weapon load out on the same ship is a progression? That's clearly just using the weapon differently and has nothing to do with pogression.
Yes, a large rail gun is different than a small rail gun. If you're trying to nail a Covert Ops frigate (which, of course, no one uses since its just different, not better than the much cheaper T1 Frigates) that's running circles around at 6 klicks a large rail gun isn't appropriate.
Anyone who is unable to distinguish the difference between specialization and progression...