People want different things. I don't see why MMO companies can't make servers that caters to peoples different preferences out side the usual RP/PVE/PVP choices. They should be able to create different servers with different rulesets.
I don't like XP loss in a game but at the same time I must admit, I haven't felt my adrenaline pumping since the old EQ days. I long for that feeling in every new MMO that comes out. While the genre is mainstream now, it really has lost it's edge.
Harsh death penalty does not make players better. Infact I believe the effect is opposite. Three points:
One
With harsh death penalty, players take less risks and therefore strain their skills less. To be better you have to take risks. If you go around killing toothless rats because your fear of dying, you'll soon be a moderate exterminator but not a good fighter.
Two
Harsh death penalty usually means a lot of time wasted. Downtime. Downtime means less action less gaming experience. Experience makes you a better player. If one can jump right in after their violent demise, they learn faster. FPS-pro's will tell you that they pick a server with high respawn rate to train faster: to get more action. Not to mention downtime is boring.
And lastly...
Death is a learning experience, as any, and people are more willing to try new stuff, new tactics etc. to an encounter or PvP when they don't fear the death penalty. It's a cheap way to get your adrenaline pumping and to waste your gold in (money sink) but one thing it doesn't do is make you a better player.
One
Playing it safe is one of the signs of a smart player and it takes playing the game to learn what is safe and what is not. You have basically destroyed your own arguement with this point. Also, in no game would a player reach any kind of success killing toothless rats. If any such game even did exist, it would be irrelevant to this point. Toothless rats could take you to max level in a game with or without harsh death penalties and no one would ever learn anything. That's a pathetic example.
Two
You are basically relying on the people reading your bullshit to concede to the idea that all time is equal when the whole point of playing in a harsh environment is that your time will be more valuable (per second) than the time you spend playing a game in a forgiving environment. Yes, you will spend more time playing in a game without penalties, but you are also learning less in that time because all risk is absent and therefore out of consideration. That is the whole point of the arguement. I don't know how you typed this much without realizing that.
Also, pros will sometimes play on servers with fast respawn times to practice specific things (like aiming), but they do not spend the majority of their time there. Practicing within the rules of the actual matches is the most important practice because of several factors. Stop talking about things you know very little about. You sound like an ass.
And lastly...
While I think you bring up a good point (finally) here, but consider this: What is the point of using your freedom to experiment when it has little to no benefit? If there is no death penalty, there is no reason to worry about failing. All paths lead to victory eventually, because none of them lead to failure.
BTW: Incase you guys haven't noticed, when a Raid boss goes back to 100% health after a whipe, that is a death penalty. If the Raid boss kills your group after 20 minutes of fighting, your "penalty" is 20 minutes wasted. So those of you stating that "failing is a penalty in itself," remember that you've probably never played a game where you simply failed without consequence. If the boss stays at whatever % of health you got it down to, then maybe you had no death penalty. I've never even heard of a game that works that way (without some other kind of penalty).
_________________________________ "Fixed it. Because that wall of text attacked me, killed me and looted my body..." -George "sniperg" Light
Just imagine for a second if "death penalties" were introduced in non-MMO games. What would happen to a Diamond level Starcraft 2 player that lost in an online match? Would you give him a 10% resource collection penalty for the next half dozen matches he played, thus forcing him to hang around in the lower tiers as "punishment"? Do you really think this would serve to encourage players to play harder and make victories more satisfying, or would it just piss off the game's entire playerbase and significantly reduce player involvement in ladder tourneys?
You may say this is not a fair comparison, as this is primarily focused around PvP, but player battles are exactly the area where death penalties can devastate a game the most. The only modern MMO I know of that has managed to successfully integrate heavy death penalties with competitive PvP is EVE Online. And even there this death mechanic has lead to endless squabbling between "carebears" who are unwilling to participate in any form of open combat and military corps who want the entire game to become a free for all. Heck, even the Fallout Online devs considered having hardcore servers with permadeath and full PvP loots- but they wisely went a more conventional route.
Frankly I'd rather all MMOs have no penalties for death in competitive PvP and use a standard arena ranking system. Give powerful and exclusive loot as a reward to the top players, and games will have all the cutthroat competition they could possibly need.
Just imagine for a second if "death penalties" were introduced in non-MMO games. What would happen to a Diamond level Starcraft 2 player that lost in an online match?
If you don't want a penalty for losing in SC2 you play Custom Game 1v1's.
When you lose in a ranked SC2 game your record and and your rank are affected. There IS a penalty. The whole ranking system would crumble if it didn't have penalties. It would cease to be a ranking system.
When Diamong Level SC2 players lose a round in a tournament, they are either sent to the loser-bracket where they must play even harder to win or they are eliminated. That is the penalty for losing in a SC2 tournament.
People play harder and with more determination in tournaments than they do in ranked games and people play harder and with more determination in ranked games than they do in custom games. Just looking at these examples we can see that there is a risk vs reward balance. Winning a tournament could mean getting some money, a sponsorship or other prizes, so it has the highest risk (elimination).
If things actually worked the way you were attempting to describe, people would only be playing Custom Game 1v1's.
_________________________________ "Fixed it. Because that wall of text attacked me, killed me and looted my body..." -George "sniperg" Light
Harsh death penalty does not make players better. Infact I believe the effect is opposite. Three points:
One
With harsh death penalty, players take less risks and therefore strain their skills less. To be better you have to take risks. If you go around killing toothless rats because your fear of dying, you'll soon be a moderate exterminator but not a good fighter.
Two
Harsh death penalty usually means a lot of time wasted. Downtime. Downtime means less action less gaming experience. Experience makes you a better player. If one can jump right in after their violent demise, they learn faster. FPS-pro's will tell you that they pick a server with high respawn rate to train faster: to get more action. Not to mention downtime is boring.
And lastly...
Death is a learning experience, as any, and people are more willing to try new stuff, new tactics etc. to an encounter or PvP when they don't fear the death penalty. It's a cheap way to get your adrenaline pumping and to waste your gold in (money sink) but one thing it doesn't do is make you a better player.
One
Playing it safe is one of the signs of a smart player and it takes playing the game to learn what is safe and what is not. You have basically destroyed your own arguement with this point. Also, in no game would a player reach any kind of success killing toothless rats. If any such game even did exist, it would be irrelevant to this point. Toothless rats could take you to max level in a game with or without harsh death penalties and no one would ever learn anything. That's a pathetic example.
Two
You are basically relying on the people reading your bullshit to concede to the idea that all time is equal when the whole point of playing in a harsh environment is that your time will be more valuable (per second) than the time you spend playing a game in a forgiving environment. Yes, you will spend more time playing in a game without penalties, but you are also learning less in that time because all risk is absent and therefore out of consideration. That is the whole point of the arguement. I don't know how you typed this much without realizing that.
Also, pros will sometimes play on servers with fast respawn times to practice specific things (like aiming), but they do not spend the majority of their time there. Practicing within the rules of the actual matches is the most important practice because of several factors. Stop talking about things you know very little about. You sound like an ass.
And lastly...
While I think you bring up a good point (finally) here, but consider this: What is the point of using your freedom to experiment when it has little to no benefit? If there is no death penalty, there is no reason to worry about failing. All paths lead to victory eventually, because none of them lead to failure.
BTW: Incase you guys haven't noticed, when a Raid boss goes back to 100% health after a whipe, that is a death penalty. If the Raid boss kills your group after 20 minutes of fighting, your "penalty" is 20 minutes wasted. So those of you stating that "failing is a penalty in itself," remember that you've probably never played a game where you simply failed without consequence. If the boss stays at whatever % of health you got it down to, then maybe you had no death penalty. I've never even heard of a game that works that way (without some other kind of penalty).
The first bit is not about leveling. Max level doesn't tell anything about your skill as a player. It is about straining that player skill, not gaining level in a game. Do boxers beat up children for training? -No, they have a sparring partner who is close to their skill level.
Second perceives death penalty as punishment or penalty, not as a "risk". Are you telling me that if held at gun point, you'll be, for example, a better driver? Did they hold Michael Schumacher's family hostage so that he could be one of the most succesful formula 1 driver in the world? Every sports analogy stomps on your argument that risk makes better players. You are free to challenge yourself without fear of punishment.
The last part: You win in PvE eventually. That is true. But I guess I was looking it in more in the perspective of a PvP player.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
I'm a little stunned at this. Someone in this day and age actually WANTS an experience penalty on death? I can just imagine this message being sent to a high level player after dying in a guild raid:
"Congratulations! Your team managed to finish the epic dungeon and beat the end boss! BUT, because you got picked off just before reaching the exit, we're going to have to dock you 5 percent of your experience points. Sorry that you're no longer able to equip any of your top level gear, but you can at least have fun grinding for the next two hours before you can start enjoying the game again."
Death penalties are an archaic and widely despised game mechanic to begin with, but if we're going to include them we might as well have something like equipment degradation on death which can at least be mitigated to some extent. Experience penalties are absolutely awful.
Archiac eh? That doesn't negate the fact that it's a bad mechanic. I'll tell you the reason why I think an xp loss penatly is favored here at the moment. If you played EQ and WoW you should be able to understand my reasoning.
An xp penalty is probably one of the harsh death penalty mechanics. I think because of the strict penalty it makes the game more serious for players. In Wow when you wipe it isn't that big of a deal. You run in ghost form to your corpse and bam your fine. An extra 1-2 mins taken away. That isn't that bad. What gets bad is when it happens all the time. When you wipe in wow all the time with pugs, the pugs disband. In Everquest, if we wiped we fixed it. We didn't do it again. Players were always on their toes. It made players wise of when to take risks and when to not take risks. You didn't wipe as much and you could accomplish more things. So thats my reasoning behind it. Whether or not you think it's strong or not. That's fine. I am still up changing the penatly to something else.
I quite like your suggestions Eronakis but I am in the camp that favours some kind of death penalty anyway. One observation I want to make is that your system probably favours group players over solo players since groups are more likely to be fighting mobs above their level. This is probably not a bad thing. In my experience it is much easier to die when grouped.
However, I don't think there is any such thing as a fair death penalty, it's just a matter of personal preference. I don't think that players who dislike death penalties will dislike your system any less because it varies with level range.
Perhaps there is a way around this by devising some new mechanism for charging the death penalty, ie something less harsh than XP loss but more severe than item degradation.
I must admit I havn't really thought this through but how about some kind of debuff that reduces xp gain for a period of time. This could have a couple potential advantages:
- It is less 'in your face' than an XP loss (especially if you don't show the debuff!) even if it just as severe.
- It tends to favour casual players since they are not logged in so much and therefore have more chance to sleep off the debuff.
Thank you. I was actually discussing this with one of my good friends. He also mentioned a de-buff. Maybe the de-buff will stack every time you die. I think item degradation is a realistic mechanic that is use. But that shouldn't be soley determined as a death penalty.
However, how long should a death de-buff last? What should it affect? Stats? Run speed? Should the de-buff be somewhat harsh when you first obtain it? Also, does everytime you die does the de-buff duration increase? If you're in a group and you've wiped, and the de-buff lasts 5 mins players will just wait it out. More time wasted. Time will always be wasted in any death penalty design. It's just how you waste your time.
I would be in favor of a 'pick your own' death penalty.
You would open the game options and have to select:
1. No penalty
2. Run back to your corpse or debuff
3. Loss of equipment or corpse run
4. Perma death
wouldn't work with option 1 in there m8 as everyone would choose that, even the so called hardcore players that want harsher DPs.
Personally i'd prefer a system similar to pre NGE SWG (yes i know i said it sorry). Equipment decayed over time with general use of it, you could either buy repair kits from crafters to use yourself or take the items to a crafter to repair with better outcomes. over time you'd have to buy new items due to wear and tear (like everything), the more use it got the more damage it took.
Granted in this day and age of how MMOs are done with their class system the tanks would come worse off and it wouldn't be fair on them, because of this i don't think we're gonna see much difference in games with DPs till the day things change and the IDEAS of PRE NGE SWG are adopted.
*goes off to do a corpse run or regain lost xp till devs start thinking outside the box"
I would be in favor of a 'pick your own' death penalty.
You would open the game options and have to select:
1. No penalty
2. Run back to your corpse or debuff
3. Loss of equipment or corpse run
4. Perma death
But what would be the advantages or disadvantages to each? And who in their right mind would choose a death penalty if that was an option? I sure wouldn't heh.
People want different things. I don't see why MMO companies can't make servers that caters to peoples different preferences outsidethe usual RP/PVE/PVP choices. They should be able to create different servers with different rulesets.
I don't like XP loss in a game but at the same time I must admit, I haven't felt my adrenaline pumping since the old EQ days. I long for that feeling in every new MMO that comes out. While the genre is mainstream now, it really has lost it's edge.
I think you hit the nail on the head. That's why this industry needs to go back to niche gaming. The players who want a challenge with a harsh death penalty will play that game. I haven't felt the rush either since EQ. That's why everything is soo easy now. Xp loss sucks but its just harsh enough to tell the players to stop wiping. I think it would be taken more serious than other death penalties.
One thing that has not been mentioned yet with xp loss for deaths is you can RESURRECT OR GO ON A CORPSE RUN OF SOME KIND AND OBTAIN THE XP BACK. You don't have to spend your time grinding that xp back again. You will get a good portion of that xp back when you do as such. You're going to waste your time anyways when you die. It's just how you waste it.
"My time is valuable and I hate when I die," is the common phrase around here. Have you ever thought that you're wasting your time when you play the game? What do you get out of playing an mmo? Personal satisfication of whatever aspect you get out it. We all could be spending time with our girlfriends, family, friends instead of playing mmos. But yet we don't. We waste time on them because of enjoyment and its a great hobby. There are other things important than playing an mmo. So if your time is that valuable, maybe you shouldn't be playing in the genre. This genre is for long term players that you have to invest your time in. This is just another way of thinking that I am not sure anyone yet has considered.
I think the real problem this emphasizes, is just what constitutes a 'challenge' and 'punishment' in most MMOS.
Most of these punishments boil down simply to 'wasting your time'. XP penalty? Armor degradation? Corpse runs? Merely wasting time. You know there is something wrong with your punishment system, when your punishment is 'play the game some more, but in a less fun way'.
Repeating levels? Farming to regain money? Running to fetch a corpse? Unless it's yoked to MEANINGFUL punishment, all you're doing is telling the person 'Because you failed, not only must you try again, but you must also spend more time in the worst punishment of all. PLAYING THIS GAME SOME MORE.' Because it's not like somebody who died on a monster and spends his time methodically killing even weaker monsters and playing it safe is honing their skill or anything...
People compare this to all sorts of bullshit, wrong comparisons. Losing in something like soccer, or a Starcraft tournament, your punishment is REAL. Not only did you not get the victory, but very often, you don't have a second chance at it. It's like permadeath (Only harsher, because you can't walk up to the tournament organization committee and say 'I'd like a reroll and a new try please.). The only punishments that come even CLOSE would be something like EVE (Not sure about Darkfall).
So my stance is this. 'Real punishments, or none', because most death penalties aren't people going 'Oh no, I'm being penalized in a real, meaningful fashion, so I'm really risking something', it's people going 'Oh. Well, I don't want to play for an extra X hours, wasting my time on tasks I've already completed, just to get back to where I was."
That's another thing. MMOs CAN be solved simply by throwing time at the problem. Didn't do it in 8 hours? Do it in 40 hours. 40 hours didn't work? Try 200 hours. 200 hours =at the same skill level=. There is very little increase in skill needed to solve MMOs, just an inhuman level of patience and willingness to repeat mind-numbing tasks that people have somehow managed to convince themselves is really clever puzzle solving.
People keep comparing this to something like shooting at a target, and saying that with infinite ammo, you can solve the problem. Unless the target walks away (LIke, oh say, sniping at a real person), MMOs are EXACTLY like that. It's people pumping round after round at a wall, until they finally succeed.
Most death penalties are basically equivalent to 'Now you have to shoot at a closer target that you can already hit fine, perhaps 2 feet away, for another thousand times, before we'll let you try the target you failed on again'.
That isn't improving skill, that's literally totally bullshit punishment.
The punishment should be failure, or some sort of real punishment (True failure), none of this in-between stuff that you see. So if you say 'No death penalty' or 'incredibly harsh death penalty that makes EVE punishment looks like it's for candy-a** carebare noobs who have their mommy tuck them in at night', I agree with you, anything in between is pretty lame and just pretending to punish you meaningfully by making you play a crappy game longer.
(Oh, a great solution would be for problems to actually require skill to beat. Yeah, an infinite amount of ammo will have you shoot a bullseye at 100 meters... but we're talking days and days of firing, your finger bleeding, maybe a fracture in your finger from pulling it so much. Honestly, it's NOT THAT EASY to do an actually skill-involved task. If it's a series of skillful tasks strung together, then it would take nearly an infinite amount of time to complete unless you actually hit the level of skill necessary. That's a GREAT thing to pair with 0 death penalty, making it require some actual skill to beat.)
One thing that has not been mentioned yet with xp loss for deaths is you can RESURRECT OR GO ON A CORPSE RUN OF SOME KIND AND OBTAIN THE XP BACK. You don't have to spend your time grinding that xp back again. You will get a good portion of that xp back when you do as such. You're going to waste your time anyways when you die. It's just how you waste it.
"My time is valuable and I hate when I die," is the common phrase around here. Have you ever thought that you're wasting your time when you play the game? What do you get out of playing an mmo? Personal satisfication of whatever aspect you get out it. We all could be spending time with our girlfriends, family, friends instead of playing mmos. But yet we don't. We waste time on them because of enjoyment and its a great hobby. There are other things important than playing an mmo. So if your time is that valuable, maybe you shouldn't be playing in the genre. This genre is for long term players that you have to invest your time in. This is just another way of thinking that I am not sure anyone yet has considered.
They probably try to ignore it, to be honest. Also, especially as we've seen with NCsoft it doesn't seem like MMOs are being developed for longevity anymore, it seems more about the quick cash grab- hype, pre-orders, collector's editions, and early on lifetime subs.
They probably try to ignore it, to be honest. Also, especially as we've seen with NCsoft it doesn't seem like MMOs are being developed for longevity anymore, it seems more about the quick cash grab- hype, pre-orders, collector's editions, and early on lifetime subs.
My time is valuable enough that I want to waste my time on having fun or gaining skill. The kind of death penalty MMO poseurs (That's everybody who thinks something as wussy as '50% of your total experience and all your equipment' or less counts as 'real death penalty') want doesn't count as either.
Am I having more fun when I repeat lower level content that I've already mastered?
Perhaps I am gaining skill by killing the same thing over and over and over and over again?
Or perhaps a game that is already having me waste time is having me waste MORE time. Obviously there are limits to things.
I am willing to spend 10 minutes in line at a grocery store because I want what I can get there.
I am NOT willing to spend 4 hours in line. The idea that an MMO is a product worthy of a limitless amount of my time is ludicrous. My time is more valuable than that.
I am willing to give a certain amount of time per fun (Gaining skills counts as fun, which is why PvP doesn't grow old as fast as PvE), and if an MMO cannot reach that rate, I will leave it to people who have considerably less valuable time than me, and are willing to repeat themselves and to kill the same thing thousands of time to prove they are 'in it for the long haul.'
When a game stops challenging me and is merely causing me to endlessly repeat mastered material without even delivering new story, then it's a bad game.
... how about some kind of debuff that reduces xp gain for a period of time...
Thank you. I was actually discussing this with one of my good friends. He also mentioned a de-buff. Maybe the de-buff will stack every time you die. I think item degradation is a realistic mechanic that is use. But that shouldn't be soley determined as a death penalty.
However, how long should a death de-buff last? What should it affect? Stats? Run speed? Should the de-buff be somewhat harsh when you first obtain it? Also, does everytime you die does the de-buff duration increase? If you're in a group and you've wiped, and the de-buff lasts 5 mins players will just wait it out. More time wasted. Time will always be wasted in any death penalty design. It's just how you waste your time.
I would steer clear of a debuff that reduces stats or character performance. At best it will force players to wait out the debuff, at worst it can lead to further deaths since it is easy to underestimate how much such a debuff affects your characters power. The last thing you want is a death penalty that causes further deaths!
I was talking about a debuff which directly affects the rate at which future xp is gained. To illustrate with an example:
- Under the xp loss method a character loses 1,000 xp when he dies.
- Under the debuff method the character loses no xp but only gains 75% of the next 4,000 xp.
In both cases the xp penalty is 1,000 but it is presented in a very different way. Also, if a character has not worked it's xp penalty off by the end of the evening the debuff most likely expires overnight so the player has a fresh start the next day.
I would steer clear of a debuff that reduces stats or character performance. At best it will force players to wait out the debuff, at worst it can lead to further deaths since it is easy to underestimate how much such a debuff affects your characters power. The last thing you want is a death penalty that causes further deaths!
I was talking about a debuff which directly affects the rate at which future xp is gained. To illustrate with an example:
- Under the xp loss method a character loses 1,000 xp when he dies.
- Under the debuff method the character loses no xp but only gains 75% of the next 4,000 xp.
In both cases the xp penalty is 1,000 but it is presented in a very different way. Also, if a character has not worked it's xp penalty off by the end of the evening the debuff most likely expires overnight so the player has a fresh start the next day.
Let's see if I understand your idea of a good punishment.
'You should play the game more and progress less. Or stop playing for a while.'
So the two best punishments you can come up with is 'play the game more' and 'stop playing'.
I fail to see why there should be any kind of penalty for PvE. PvE is a chance to solve a puzzle and the most efficent way to get through it. It's also a time to cool down from RL challenges, as it's something you know you can optimize your way through.
PvP is a chance to test yourself against something that adapts on the fly. Something that has intuition, will, and "force". Death penalties aren't really condusive to that either, especially when it just makes both parties have less fun(winner gets weaker oppents, loser gets to fight someone stronger, both these applied is pretty poor gameplay).
____
I also don't understand territory/guild PvP in MMOs for the most part, especially something like EvE/darkfall. The only way you ever truely win is making the enemy quit before you do. The only thing you're risking is time, so the only way you win is making your enemy not play.
Personally I think the people who want death penalties aren't challenging themselves enough in Real life. Don't get insulted over that, it's just what an Internet person thinks.
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.
"At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."
They probably try to ignore it, to be honest. Also, especially as we've seen with NCsoft it doesn't seem like MMOs are being developed for longevity anymore, it seems more about the quick cash grab- hype, pre-orders, collector's editions, and early on lifetime subs.
My time is valuable enough that I want to waste my time on having fun or gaining skill. The kind of death penalty MMO poseurs (That's everybody who thinks something as wussy as '50% of your total experience and all your equipment' or less counts as 'real death penalty') want doesn't count as either.
Am I having more fun when I repeat lower level content that I've already mastered?
Perhaps I am gaining skill by killing the same thing over and over and over and over again?
Or perhaps a game that is already having me waste time is having me waste MORE time. Obviously there are limits to things.
I am willing to spend 10 minutes in line at a grocery store because I want what I can get there.
I am NOT willing to spend 4 hours in line. The idea that an MMO is a product worthy of a limitless amount of my time is ludicrous. My time is more valuable than that.
I am willing to give a certain amount of time per fun (Gaining skills counts as fun, which is why PvP doesn't grow old as fast as PvE), and if an MMO cannot reach that rate, I will leave it to people who have considerably less valuable time than me, and are willing to repeat themselves and to kill the same thing thousands of time to prove they are 'in it for the long haul.'
When a game stops challenging me and is merely causing me to endlessly repeat mastered material without even delivering new story, then it's a bad game.
I'm not entirely sure what you are going on about. When you say gaining skill, are you talking about character skills in a skill-based game or are you speaking of personal skill, such as hand-eye coordination/"muscle-memory" reactions for your class? Also, which MMOs don't have repetitive gameplay- do you not have to keep rolling through kill after kill or quest after quest to advance? And regarding the last line- the game suddenly turns bad once you no longer feel challenged? So up to that moment the game is fine?
I certainly noted the sarcasm as you were laying it on thick, but you missed actually making a point.
Let's see if I understand your idea of a good punishment.
'You should play the game more and progress less. Or stop playing for a while.'
So the two best punishments you can come up with is 'play the game more' and 'stop playing'.
I really need a good long blank stare emote here.
We get that you don't like death penalties and that you have mastered the art of sarcasm. Try reading the OP again to find out what this thread is about and then see if you can post anything constructive.
I'm not entirely sure what you are going on about. When you say gaining skill, are you talking about character skills in a skill-based game or are you speaking of personal skill, such as hand-eye coordination/"muscle-memory" reactions for your class? Also, which MMOs don't have repetitive gameplay- do you not have to keep rolling through kill after kill or quest after quest to advance? And regarding the last line- the game suddenly turns bad once you no longer feel challenged? So up to that moment the game is fine?
I certainly noted the sarcasm as you were laying it on thick, but you missed actually making a point.
Sorry, I didn't realize I'd have to spell it out for people in excruciatingly slow, mind-numbing, child level detail, but I'm always willing to cater to my audience!
I'll use your post to point out some problems with the MMO genre, and their audience. No offense intended, of course.
1. Of course when I'm talking about gaining skill I'm talking about gaining actual player skill. The idea that somebody could think of gaining character skill as 'meaningful progress and fun' is a good sign of a problem with the genre, right there. Spending large amounts of time to 'improve' your character, and then being proud of the extra boosts in bigger numbers is pretty silly.
Somebody who plays an FPS, or a fighting game, or an RTS... a platformer, a puzzle game, even a sports game is gaining some actual skills. They're improving their reflexes, their ability to respond to situations, puzzle solving and other things. In an MMO, way too much of what you're improving is 'time wasted gaining bigger numbers'. The characters aren't defeating the next monster because the player is SO much better at playing, they're defeating bigger monsters because the numbers on their armor, or spaceship, or whatever is higher. It's giving people the idea that they're spending their time in a useful fashion, rather than a poorly disguised grind.
If you play Starcraft for 500 hours, you're theoretically getting damn good at Starcraft, improving your reflexes. If Starcraft was an MMO, those 500 hours would be spent doing the same simple, very repetitive tasks that you've already mastered, while you're slowly eked out rewards of new units and abilities for those units.
The idea that you could POSSIBLY even think I meant character skills outlines this horrible deep flaw in MMOs, their treadmill nature.
2. All MMOs have horribly repetitive gameplay. That doesn't mean that horribly repetitive, treadmill like grinding gameplay is a good thing. That's like me complaining about all the bad problems with politics, and saying I would prefer something new, and you saying that corruption is an inherent part of politics, so there is no reason not to elect the most corrupt people out there. Also, just because I think there's a lot of problem with politicians and the political system, doesn't mean I'm an anarchist and I think the government should disappear. MMOs have good points. Amazingly fresh gameplay is not one of them. Yes. When a game is challenging, or delivering fun in some way (Playing a game with my friends, no matter how crappy the game is, is one way to add fun, for example. Delivering some good story can be fun as well.), I'm enjoying it, the moment it stops delivering the challenge or fun in some form =I AM NO LONGER ENJOYING IT=. The idea that I should be enjoying a game from sheer MOMENTUM is bullshit. This is another problem with MMOs. 'Well, it was fun before, and it'll be fun in the future, so I should put up with 5 hours of not-fun'. Really? REALLY? That's poor game design. MMOs get away with it only because they're one of the few things that can deliver this particular brand of gaming experience, but that doesn't mean it's a good thing, it means it's an evil we put up with.
Putting up with something (Repetitive gameplay) doesn't mean it's good, no matter how much you try to convince me that because I put up with something I should be enjoying it. Having it extremely prolific doesn't mean it's good either. Those are horrible arguments. Please don't ever use them again.
3. You missed the point, so here it is again. MMOs are horribly flawed. Every moment I play it, I'm suffering through the game already just to play with my friends, maybe get a little bit of lore, and hope that I can eke out enough enjoyment from what is usually flawed gameplay systems.
Death penalty is a horrifying penalty because the whole basis behind the penalty is 'forcing you to replay our game, but in a less fun fashion'. MMOs. LESS FUN. As if they weren't unfun enough!
Death penalty, item decay, corpse runs... they're all punishments that have no meaning other than to make you repeat the game without gaining skills.
THIS IS POOR DESIGN.
Replaying something is one thing, but making me replay it + more of what I've already done and gotten over?
POOR DESIGN.
4. Please don't make me simplify my explanation anymore, it'll ruin my stellar impression of the kinds of people who have convinced themselves that treadmill gameplay and 'improvement' through bigger numbers is the apex of game design, and the most beautiful thing such a game can do is to base every game design decision around making people play these wonderful games even more.
We get that you don't like death penalties and that you have mastered the art of sarcasm. Try reading the OP again to find out what this thread is about and then see if you can post anything constructive.
Yeah, my constructive advice was...
Admit that most of these penalities are total bullshit timewasters (Most penalties are based around time wasting), and that unless it's MEANINGFUL, it's just a way for the game maker to have you play their game longer, padding out gameplay time and justifying their subscription fees that they want from the customers.
I am fine with death penalties, but it should be things like perma-death.
That's a good punishment. That's a real penalty.
EVE is on the right track. Haven't played Darkfall, but it sort of sounds like they have a good idea too.
Both extremes are fine with me, the middle is just dinking around pretending like they're punishing you, and instead hiding the fact that they can't create good content and things that require real skill to gradually master (You can beat your head against most MMOs until you reach max level, and beat any end level content in these games. That's part of the time wasting, to slow down people who are winning through sheer repetition). Too much improvement through time, rather than actually improving as a player)
Don't pretend you're punishing the players, and let them keep on playing...
... or beat the heck out of them until they're crying and wishing they had picked a game more suited to their poor skills.
That's my constructive advice.
Obviously people can't read what I've been saying. I like death penalties. i LOVE death penalties. Real ones.
(Oh, as a side note, I will accept 'losing weapons and armor in a strongly player-run crafting heavy economy', because this death penalty has a good point to it. It creates a healthy economy, and creates gold sinks and increases the reasons to craft. That's fine. That's death penalty based around improving the game experience, not around wasting time)
I have a perfect solution for you "hardcore" players in this thread. Not only will you be able to enjoy the type of death penalty you would like, but those that don't want harsh death penalties will be able to enjoy their time as well! It's a perfect solution!
Item Degradation on death:
Just delete a couple pieces of your gear every time you die! It perfectly simulations the item destruction that you want! After all, you aren't a hardcore player unless you are willing to go through and grind that same piece of gear again...and again. And since you are a hardcore player, you obviously have unlimited amounts of time to go get those pieces of gear again! Now if you want to be really hardcore, delete your entire set! Nothing says hardcore like deleting all your gear and getting it again. Just think about it. Won't it be fun going through those dungeons again, or going to gather the materials to craft the items, or buying them again! It's a perfect way to pay for the crime you just committed by dying!
Experience loss on Death:
If destroying your items isn't your version of "hardcore", then maybe this is! I have a perfect substitute for experience loss on death! Now I know what you are thinking. "Now bookworm438, you can't remove experience yourself by dying. That must be builting into the game by the developers!" Well by golly I'm here to tell you your wrong. What's the solution I'm sure you are asking by this point? Go through and kill move below the minimum level you gain experience from for the next 2 hours! Not only do you get to not progress your character past the point you were at, but you get to say high to those old mobs!" I'm sure those pixies of doom that you were beating up 10 levels ago miss your company! So for the next 2 hours you get to hang out with them! Killing them again, and again, and again...and one mroe time for good measure. After all nothing says hardcore like willing to go through and kill creatures again and again to pay for the crime you just committed.
Money loss on death:
Now maybe money is your version of a punish more your crime! Now I have a solution for that too! It's so perfect you could be back to no money in no time, and be on your way to grinding your way back to the riches you once had! Go to a local vendor. It can be any vendor too! So it's universal, can be done anywhere! How exciting! Now stop yelling at your computer screen for me to get onto the solution, as I'm sure you are doing. Here's the solution! Go to that local vendor I was talking about. By a large amount of the most expensive but useless item they have, and destroy it! Perfect! That gold you once had is gone, and there's no way of getting back until you pay for your crime! And the payment for your crime is grinding all that money back! Isn't just great! You'll be the envy of everyone when you can go from broke to rich again in no time, and then do it all over again! Everyone will be asking for the secret of how you build your riches, and you get to be the hardcore player you always wanted to be!
Permadeath:
None of those you're cup o' tea? Need something a little bit more hardcore? Something that's the greatest punishment for the crime that you committed? Something such as permadeath? Well I have a solution for that too! It's a solution that says you can't get any more hardcore than this! I'm sure the anticipation is building, as you all read through this portion of the post, wanting to know what the solution is. Ready? Delete your character upon death! Not only delete it, but don't transfer any items or money to another character! Perfect! You'll be the most hardcore and skillful player around! How is that you say? Because you'll have gone through the content over and over again! You'll have had plent of opportunities to gain skill with your class. Nobody will be able to doubt that you are hardcore player now!
None of those your cup o' tea? Maybe your interesting in just ruining the fun of players that want to just get on, have some fun, and get off? Well I'm sorry to tell you, stop. Nobody is interested in playing the way you want to play. Let these people play how they want, while you play how you want. Why force players to waste valuable time repeating content they don't want to repeat? Death in a video game is NOT a crime. No matter how you think of it, it's not a crime. It's a chance for you to go "oh crap, I screwed up!". No amount of death penalty will make a player more skillful. It's main function is to keep players sub- I mean allow players to have fun repeating content they already have done. Skill will one come from challenges that force you to use your character in different ways, and the ability to learn from your mistakes, and of couse time. Admittedly there are some people who just refuse to learn from their mistakes, and those people can't be helped.
If you claim, why on earth would I do this to myself? You are kind of contradicting yourself. You want a harsh death penalty, but you aren't willing to put in the time to punish yourself first. How can you expect us to take you seriously when you aren't willing to go the extra step and try to simulate the effects of a harsh DP.
In the vast array of new age mmos, we have been seeing death penalties being mitigated. There is no incentive to stay alive. Item durability seems to be the common trend or no death penality at all. I am biased and believe that a death penality consititutes an incentive to stay alive and better players come out of that. When you wipe in groups with no death penalty, whoopdee dooo. Who cares? Right? Only real penalty is time wasted running back to the instanced or where ever you died.
I have came up with a compromise that shoots for the median of a strict death penality and a not so costly death penalty. Civil feedback would be nice. I guess I am looking for more answers from the new age mmo crowd or rather the casual crowd answers to this solution.
I think loss of experience should be scaled within the level of the character and the mob they are fighting or environmental death. Here is an example of character to mob scaling.
- If you die from a target that is within the same level from 1-3 levels of you, you will loose 7% experience.
- If you die from target that is within 3-6 levels of you, you will loose 5% experience
- If you die from a target that is 7-10+ levels of you, you will loose 3% experience.
- If you die from environment, you will loose a static of 5% experience.
As you can see, you will loose more experience for mobs that are within your level range. Why? Because your at their correspond discipline level. The fights are balanced. You loose less experience when you die from higher levels mobs. This is to because your "level of discipline" is not equal to their discipline. It's like saying, are you on the discipline level of Bruce Lee in which you have an equal chance at a victory? Absolutely not. I believe if experience loss is valued as a death penalty it needs to be fair in a pve standpoint.
Another attribute that is taken into consideration is a cap of experience loss.
- Loss of experience will cease once you accumulate 100% death experience lost.
- To accumulate to that 100% interval, the percentage will add every time you die based on the character to mob scaling ratio.
- Example: You die from a mob that is within 2 levels of you, then 1 level of you, then 6 levels of you, then 10 levels of you all in a row. How much experience have you accumulated? To figure this out, the computer will add the the static amount of xp loss per level of mob which will equal to the sum.
2 levels within you = 7% xp loss -- 1 level of you = 7% xp loss -- 6 levels from you = 5% xp loss -- 10 levels from you = 3% xp loss. By this process a player has accumulated 22% death experience lost. This means you have 78% experience to loose until it's capped.
- Also, once you have capped out with 100% death experience lost, that would probably equal out to loosing one level. Essentially this means you can't loose more than one level.
I also think item durability should also play a role into a death penalty, but only in a minute form.
So what happens when you have capped to 100%? I would propose the last line of penalties should increase the value of durability taken from hits by double. Meaning your armor will break twice as fast.
In conclusion I think this is a fair assessement of design for a death penalty. It isn't too harsh and yet it encourages you not to die. You still loose experience but yet you can't de-level no more than one level.
Vanguard has this type of system and all the other things that the old MMO had.
People complain they want these things and yet their is an MMO less than 4 years old with the best crafting system to date and a vast non instanced world which is a grouping MMO. It has ships, housing, guildhalls and great classes plus 17 races with their own starting areas.
It also has corpse runs and overland named raid bosses plus epic quests and flying mounts.
It's not the same buggy mess it was nearly 4 years ago yet because it's soe people don't want to play it,i really don't understand.
For those looking for the more hardcore MMO then it's alive and kicking in Vanguard.
Obviously these people don't really want what they are asking for or else they would be playing Vanguard.
Harsh death penalty does not make players better. Infact I believe the effect is opposite. Three points:
One
With harsh death penalty, players take less risks and therefore strain their skills less. To be better you have to take risks. If you go around killing toothless rats because your fear of dying, you'll soon be a moderate exterminator but not a good fighter.
Two
Harsh death penalty usually means a lot of time wasted. Downtime. Downtime means less action less gaming experience. Experience makes you a better player. If one can jump right in after their violent demise, they learn faster. FPS-pro's will tell you that they pick a server with high respawn rate to train faster: to get more action. Not to mention downtime is boring.
And lastly...
Death is a learning experience, as any, and people are more willing to try new stuff, new tactics etc. to an encounter or PvP when they don't fear the death penalty. It's a cheap way to get your adrenaline pumping and to waste your gold in (money sink) but one thing it doesn't do is make you a better player.
One
Playing it safe is one of the signs of a smart player and it takes playing the game to learn what is safe and what is not. You have basically destroyed your own arguement with this point. Also, in no game would a player reach any kind of success killing toothless rats. If any such game even did exist, it would be irrelevant to this point. Toothless rats could take you to max level in a game with or without harsh death penalties and no one would ever learn anything. That's a pathetic example.
Two
You are basically relying on the people reading your bullshit to concede to the idea that all time is equal when the whole point of playing in a harsh environment is that your time will be more valuable (per second) than the time you spend playing a game in a forgiving environment. Yes, you will spend more time playing in a game without penalties, but you are also learning less in that time because all risk is absent and therefore out of consideration. That is the whole point of the arguement. I don't know how you typed this much without realizing that.
Also, pros will sometimes play on servers with fast respawn times to practice specific things (like aiming), but they do not spend the majority of their time there. Practicing within the rules of the actual matches is the most important practice because of several factors. Stop talking about things you know very little about. You sound like an ass.
And lastly...
While I think you bring up a good point (finally) here, but consider this: What is the point of using your freedom to experiment when it has little to no benefit? If there is no death penalty, there is no reason to worry about failing. All paths lead to victory eventually, because none of them lead to failure.
BTW: Incase you guys haven't noticed, when a Raid boss goes back to 100% health after a whipe, that is a death penalty. If the Raid boss kills your group after 20 minutes of fighting, your "penalty" is 20 minutes wasted. So those of you stating that "failing is a penalty in itself," remember that you've probably never played a game where you simply failed without consequence. If the boss stays at whatever % of health you got it down to, then maybe you had no death penalty. I've never even heard of a game that works that way (without some other kind of penalty).
The first bit is not about leveling. Max level doesn't tell anything about your skill as a player. It is about straining that player skill, not gaining level in a game. Do boxers beat up children for training? -No, they have a sparring partner who is close to their skill level.
Second perceives death penalty as punishment or penalty, not as a "risk". Are you telling me that if held at gun point, you'll be, for example, a better driver? Did they hold Michael Schumacher's family hostage so that he could be one of the most succesful formula 1 driver in the world? Every sports analogy stomps on your argument that risk makes better players. You are free to challenge yourself without fear of punishment.
The last part: You win in PvE eventually. That is true. But I guess I was looking it in more in the perspective of a PvP player.
Your first point doesn't add anything to this discussion. It has no point.
Second, I'm pretty sure if someone held a gun to my head while I was driving, I would drive A LOT more careful for several reasons. One obvious reason would be that I wouldn't want the person holding the gun to accidently fire, so I would be a lot more cautious around bumps. Also, every spors analogy stomps YOUR argument. In every sport, the BEST players play at the highest level of risk and reward. They might practice at lower risk but when a basketball or soccer player are attempting to win in a major league they're going to play BETTER than the people in amateur leagues because they CARE more because there is more risk. That's how they got there in the first place. They might not die if they lose, but there is still other things to lose (money, sponsorship, etc...).
Again, what difference does losing make in a game without penalty? Even in PvP, you're just PvPing to PvP because without risk there is no reward.
_________________________________ "Fixed it. Because that wall of text attacked me, killed me and looted my body..." -George "sniperg" Light
Comments
People want different things. I don't see why MMO companies can't make servers that caters to peoples different preferences out side the usual RP/PVE/PVP choices. They should be able to create different servers with different rulesets.
I don't like XP loss in a game but at the same time I must admit, I haven't felt my adrenaline pumping since the old EQ days. I long for that feeling in every new MMO that comes out. While the genre is mainstream now, it really has lost it's edge.
One
Playing it safe is one of the signs of a smart player and it takes playing the game to learn what is safe and what is not. You have basically destroyed your own arguement with this point. Also, in no game would a player reach any kind of success killing toothless rats. If any such game even did exist, it would be irrelevant to this point. Toothless rats could take you to max level in a game with or without harsh death penalties and no one would ever learn anything. That's a pathetic example.
Two
You are basically relying on the people reading your bullshit to concede to the idea that all time is equal when the whole point of playing in a harsh environment is that your time will be more valuable (per second) than the time you spend playing a game in a forgiving environment. Yes, you will spend more time playing in a game without penalties, but you are also learning less in that time because all risk is absent and therefore out of consideration. That is the whole point of the arguement. I don't know how you typed this much without realizing that.
Also, pros will sometimes play on servers with fast respawn times to practice specific things (like aiming), but they do not spend the majority of their time there. Practicing within the rules of the actual matches is the most important practice because of several factors. Stop talking about things you know very little about. You sound like an ass.
And lastly...
While I think you bring up a good point (finally) here, but consider this: What is the point of using your freedom to experiment when it has little to no benefit? If there is no death penalty, there is no reason to worry about failing. All paths lead to victory eventually, because none of them lead to failure.
BTW: Incase you guys haven't noticed, when a Raid boss goes back to 100% health after a whipe, that is a death penalty. If the Raid boss kills your group after 20 minutes of fighting, your "penalty" is 20 minutes wasted. So those of you stating that "failing is a penalty in itself," remember that you've probably never played a game where you simply failed without consequence. If the boss stays at whatever % of health you got it down to, then maybe you had no death penalty. I've never even heard of a game that works that way (without some other kind of penalty).
_________________________________
"Fixed it. Because that wall of text attacked me, killed me and looted my body..."
-George "sniperg" Light
Just imagine for a second if "death penalties" were introduced in non-MMO games. What would happen to a Diamond level Starcraft 2 player that lost in an online match? Would you give him a 10% resource collection penalty for the next half dozen matches he played, thus forcing him to hang around in the lower tiers as "punishment"? Do you really think this would serve to encourage players to play harder and make victories more satisfying, or would it just piss off the game's entire playerbase and significantly reduce player involvement in ladder tourneys?
You may say this is not a fair comparison, as this is primarily focused around PvP, but player battles are exactly the area where death penalties can devastate a game the most. The only modern MMO I know of that has managed to successfully integrate heavy death penalties with competitive PvP is EVE Online. And even there this death mechanic has lead to endless squabbling between "carebears" who are unwilling to participate in any form of open combat and military corps who want the entire game to become a free for all. Heck, even the Fallout Online devs considered having hardcore servers with permadeath and full PvP loots- but they wisely went a more conventional route.
Frankly I'd rather all MMOs have no penalties for death in competitive PvP and use a standard arena ranking system. Give powerful and exclusive loot as a reward to the top players, and games will have all the cutthroat competition they could possibly need.
If you don't want a penalty for losing in SC2 you play Custom Game 1v1's.
When you lose in a ranked SC2 game your record and and your rank are affected. There IS a penalty. The whole ranking system would crumble if it didn't have penalties. It would cease to be a ranking system.
When Diamong Level SC2 players lose a round in a tournament, they are either sent to the loser-bracket where they must play even harder to win or they are eliminated. That is the penalty for losing in a SC2 tournament.
People play harder and with more determination in tournaments than they do in ranked games and people play harder and with more determination in ranked games than they do in custom games. Just looking at these examples we can see that there is a risk vs reward balance. Winning a tournament could mean getting some money, a sponsorship or other prizes, so it has the highest risk (elimination).
If things actually worked the way you were attempting to describe, people would only be playing Custom Game 1v1's.
_________________________________
"Fixed it. Because that wall of text attacked me, killed me and looted my body..."
-George "sniperg" Light
The first bit is not about leveling. Max level doesn't tell anything about your skill as a player. It is about straining that player skill, not gaining level in a game. Do boxers beat up children for training? -No, they have a sparring partner who is close to their skill level.
Second perceives death penalty as punishment or penalty, not as a "risk". Are you telling me that if held at gun point, you'll be, for example, a better driver? Did they hold Michael Schumacher's family hostage so that he could be one of the most succesful formula 1 driver in the world? Every sports analogy stomps on your argument that risk makes better players. You are free to challenge yourself without fear of punishment.
The last part: You win in PvE eventually. That is true. But I guess I was looking it in more in the perspective of a PvP player.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
I would be in favor of a 'pick your own' death penalty.
You would open the game options and have to select:
1. No penalty
2. Run back to your corpse or debuff
3. Loss of equipment or corpse run
4. Perma death
Archiac eh? That doesn't negate the fact that it's a bad mechanic. I'll tell you the reason why I think an xp loss penatly is favored here at the moment. If you played EQ and WoW you should be able to understand my reasoning.
An xp penalty is probably one of the harsh death penalty mechanics. I think because of the strict penalty it makes the game more serious for players. In Wow when you wipe it isn't that big of a deal. You run in ghost form to your corpse and bam your fine. An extra 1-2 mins taken away. That isn't that bad. What gets bad is when it happens all the time. When you wipe in wow all the time with pugs, the pugs disband. In Everquest, if we wiped we fixed it. We didn't do it again. Players were always on their toes. It made players wise of when to take risks and when to not take risks. You didn't wipe as much and you could accomplish more things. So thats my reasoning behind it. Whether or not you think it's strong or not. That's fine. I am still up changing the penatly to something else.
Thank you. I was actually discussing this with one of my good friends. He also mentioned a de-buff. Maybe the de-buff will stack every time you die. I think item degradation is a realistic mechanic that is use. But that shouldn't be soley determined as a death penalty.
However, how long should a death de-buff last? What should it affect? Stats? Run speed? Should the de-buff be somewhat harsh when you first obtain it? Also, does everytime you die does the de-buff duration increase? If you're in a group and you've wiped, and the de-buff lasts 5 mins players will just wait it out. More time wasted. Time will always be wasted in any death penalty design. It's just how you waste your time.
wouldn't work with option 1 in there m8 as everyone would choose that, even the so called hardcore players that want harsher DPs.
Personally i'd prefer a system similar to pre NGE SWG (yes i know i said it sorry). Equipment decayed over time with general use of it, you could either buy repair kits from crafters to use yourself or take the items to a crafter to repair with better outcomes. over time you'd have to buy new items due to wear and tear (like everything), the more use it got the more damage it took.
Granted in this day and age of how MMOs are done with their class system the tanks would come worse off and it wouldn't be fair on them, because of this i don't think we're gonna see much difference in games with DPs till the day things change and the IDEAS of PRE NGE SWG are adopted.
*goes off to do a corpse run or regain lost xp till devs start thinking outside the box"
But what would be the advantages or disadvantages to each? And who in their right mind would choose a death penalty if that was an option? I sure wouldn't heh.
I think you hit the nail on the head. That's why this industry needs to go back to niche gaming. The players who want a challenge with a harsh death penalty will play that game. I haven't felt the rush either since EQ. That's why everything is soo easy now. Xp loss sucks but its just harsh enough to tell the players to stop wiping. I think it would be taken more serious than other death penalties.
One thing that has not been mentioned yet with xp loss for deaths is you can RESURRECT OR GO ON A CORPSE RUN OF SOME KIND AND OBTAIN THE XP BACK. You don't have to spend your time grinding that xp back again. You will get a good portion of that xp back when you do as such. You're going to waste your time anyways when you die. It's just how you waste it.
"My time is valuable and I hate when I die," is the common phrase around here. Have you ever thought that you're wasting your time when you play the game? What do you get out of playing an mmo? Personal satisfication of whatever aspect you get out it. We all could be spending time with our girlfriends, family, friends instead of playing mmos. But yet we don't. We waste time on them because of enjoyment and its a great hobby. There are other things important than playing an mmo. So if your time is that valuable, maybe you shouldn't be playing in the genre. This genre is for long term players that you have to invest your time in. This is just another way of thinking that I am not sure anyone yet has considered.
I think the real problem this emphasizes, is just what constitutes a 'challenge' and 'punishment' in most MMOS.
Most of these punishments boil down simply to 'wasting your time'. XP penalty? Armor degradation? Corpse runs? Merely wasting time. You know there is something wrong with your punishment system, when your punishment is 'play the game some more, but in a less fun way'.
Repeating levels? Farming to regain money? Running to fetch a corpse? Unless it's yoked to MEANINGFUL punishment, all you're doing is telling the person 'Because you failed, not only must you try again, but you must also spend more time in the worst punishment of all. PLAYING THIS GAME SOME MORE.' Because it's not like somebody who died on a monster and spends his time methodically killing even weaker monsters and playing it safe is honing their skill or anything...
People compare this to all sorts of bullshit, wrong comparisons. Losing in something like soccer, or a Starcraft tournament, your punishment is REAL. Not only did you not get the victory, but very often, you don't have a second chance at it. It's like permadeath (Only harsher, because you can't walk up to the tournament organization committee and say 'I'd like a reroll and a new try please.). The only punishments that come even CLOSE would be something like EVE (Not sure about Darkfall).
So my stance is this. 'Real punishments, or none', because most death penalties aren't people going 'Oh no, I'm being penalized in a real, meaningful fashion, so I'm really risking something', it's people going 'Oh. Well, I don't want to play for an extra X hours, wasting my time on tasks I've already completed, just to get back to where I was."
That's another thing. MMOs CAN be solved simply by throwing time at the problem. Didn't do it in 8 hours? Do it in 40 hours. 40 hours didn't work? Try 200 hours. 200 hours =at the same skill level=. There is very little increase in skill needed to solve MMOs, just an inhuman level of patience and willingness to repeat mind-numbing tasks that people have somehow managed to convince themselves is really clever puzzle solving.
People keep comparing this to something like shooting at a target, and saying that with infinite ammo, you can solve the problem. Unless the target walks away (LIke, oh say, sniping at a real person), MMOs are EXACTLY like that. It's people pumping round after round at a wall, until they finally succeed.
Most death penalties are basically equivalent to 'Now you have to shoot at a closer target that you can already hit fine, perhaps 2 feet away, for another thousand times, before we'll let you try the target you failed on again'.
That isn't improving skill, that's literally totally bullshit punishment.
The punishment should be failure, or some sort of real punishment (True failure), none of this in-between stuff that you see. So if you say 'No death penalty' or 'incredibly harsh death penalty that makes EVE punishment looks like it's for candy-a** carebare noobs who have their mommy tuck them in at night', I agree with you, anything in between is pretty lame and just pretending to punish you meaningfully by making you play a crappy game longer.
(Oh, a great solution would be for problems to actually require skill to beat. Yeah, an infinite amount of ammo will have you shoot a bullseye at 100 meters... but we're talking days and days of firing, your finger bleeding, maybe a fracture in your finger from pulling it so much. Honestly, it's NOT THAT EASY to do an actually skill-involved task. If it's a series of skillful tasks strung together, then it would take nearly an infinite amount of time to complete unless you actually hit the level of skill necessary. That's a GREAT thing to pair with 0 death penalty, making it require some actual skill to beat.)
They probably try to ignore it, to be honest. Also, especially as we've seen with NCsoft it doesn't seem like MMOs are being developed for longevity anymore, it seems more about the quick cash grab- hype, pre-orders, collector's editions, and early on lifetime subs.
My time is valuable enough that I want to waste my time on having fun or gaining skill. The kind of death penalty MMO poseurs (That's everybody who thinks something as wussy as '50% of your total experience and all your equipment' or less counts as 'real death penalty') want doesn't count as either.
Am I having more fun when I repeat lower level content that I've already mastered?
Perhaps I am gaining skill by killing the same thing over and over and over and over again?
Or perhaps a game that is already having me waste time is having me waste MORE time. Obviously there are limits to things.
I am willing to spend 10 minutes in line at a grocery store because I want what I can get there.
I am NOT willing to spend 4 hours in line. The idea that an MMO is a product worthy of a limitless amount of my time is ludicrous. My time is more valuable than that.
I am willing to give a certain amount of time per fun (Gaining skills counts as fun, which is why PvP doesn't grow old as fast as PvE), and if an MMO cannot reach that rate, I will leave it to people who have considerably less valuable time than me, and are willing to repeat themselves and to kill the same thing thousands of time to prove they are 'in it for the long haul.'
When a game stops challenging me and is merely causing me to endlessly repeat mastered material without even delivering new story, then it's a bad game.
I would steer clear of a debuff that reduces stats or character performance. At best it will force players to wait out the debuff, at worst it can lead to further deaths since it is easy to underestimate how much such a debuff affects your characters power. The last thing you want is a death penalty that causes further deaths!
I was talking about a debuff which directly affects the rate at which future xp is gained. To illustrate with an example:
- Under the xp loss method a character loses 1,000 xp when he dies.
- Under the debuff method the character loses no xp but only gains 75% of the next 4,000 xp.
In both cases the xp penalty is 1,000 but it is presented in a very different way. Also, if a character has not worked it's xp penalty off by the end of the evening the debuff most likely expires overnight so the player has a fresh start the next day.
Let's see if I understand your idea of a good punishment.
'You should play the game more and progress less. Or stop playing for a while.'
So the two best punishments you can come up with is 'play the game more' and 'stop playing'.
I really need a good long blank stare emote here.
I fail to see why there should be any kind of penalty for PvE. PvE is a chance to solve a puzzle and the most efficent way to get through it. It's also a time to cool down from RL challenges, as it's something you know you can optimize your way through.
PvP is a chance to test yourself against something that adapts on the fly. Something that has intuition, will, and "force". Death penalties aren't really condusive to that either, especially when it just makes both parties have less fun(winner gets weaker oppents, loser gets to fight someone stronger, both these applied is pretty poor gameplay).
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I also don't understand territory/guild PvP in MMOs for the most part, especially something like EvE/darkfall. The only way you ever truely win is making the enemy quit before you do. The only thing you're risking is time, so the only way you win is making your enemy not play.
Personally I think the people who want death penalties aren't challenging themselves enough in Real life. Don't get insulted over that, it's just what an Internet person thinks.
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.
"At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."
I'm not entirely sure what you are going on about. When you say gaining skill, are you talking about character skills in a skill-based game or are you speaking of personal skill, such as hand-eye coordination/"muscle-memory" reactions for your class? Also, which MMOs don't have repetitive gameplay- do you not have to keep rolling through kill after kill or quest after quest to advance? And regarding the last line- the game suddenly turns bad once you no longer feel challenged? So up to that moment the game is fine?
I certainly noted the sarcasm as you were laying it on thick, but you missed actually making a point.
We get that you don't like death penalties and that you have mastered the art of sarcasm. Try reading the OP again to find out what this thread is about and then see if you can post anything constructive.
Sorry, I didn't realize I'd have to spell it out for people in excruciatingly slow, mind-numbing, child level detail, but I'm always willing to cater to my audience!
I'll use your post to point out some problems with the MMO genre, and their audience. No offense intended, of course.
1. Of course when I'm talking about gaining skill I'm talking about gaining actual player skill. The idea that somebody could think of gaining character skill as 'meaningful progress and fun' is a good sign of a problem with the genre, right there. Spending large amounts of time to 'improve' your character, and then being proud of the extra boosts in bigger numbers is pretty silly.
Somebody who plays an FPS, or a fighting game, or an RTS... a platformer, a puzzle game, even a sports game is gaining some actual skills. They're improving their reflexes, their ability to respond to situations, puzzle solving and other things. In an MMO, way too much of what you're improving is 'time wasted gaining bigger numbers'. The characters aren't defeating the next monster because the player is SO much better at playing, they're defeating bigger monsters because the numbers on their armor, or spaceship, or whatever is higher. It's giving people the idea that they're spending their time in a useful fashion, rather than a poorly disguised grind.
If you play Starcraft for 500 hours, you're theoretically getting damn good at Starcraft, improving your reflexes. If Starcraft was an MMO, those 500 hours would be spent doing the same simple, very repetitive tasks that you've already mastered, while you're slowly eked out rewards of new units and abilities for those units.
The idea that you could POSSIBLY even think I meant character skills outlines this horrible deep flaw in MMOs, their treadmill nature.
2. All MMOs have horribly repetitive gameplay. That doesn't mean that horribly repetitive, treadmill like grinding gameplay is a good thing. That's like me complaining about all the bad problems with politics, and saying I would prefer something new, and you saying that corruption is an inherent part of politics, so there is no reason not to elect the most corrupt people out there. Also, just because I think there's a lot of problem with politicians and the political system, doesn't mean I'm an anarchist and I think the government should disappear. MMOs have good points. Amazingly fresh gameplay is not one of them. Yes. When a game is challenging, or delivering fun in some way (Playing a game with my friends, no matter how crappy the game is, is one way to add fun, for example. Delivering some good story can be fun as well.), I'm enjoying it, the moment it stops delivering the challenge or fun in some form =I AM NO LONGER ENJOYING IT=. The idea that I should be enjoying a game from sheer MOMENTUM is bullshit. This is another problem with MMOs. 'Well, it was fun before, and it'll be fun in the future, so I should put up with 5 hours of not-fun'. Really? REALLY? That's poor game design. MMOs get away with it only because they're one of the few things that can deliver this particular brand of gaming experience, but that doesn't mean it's a good thing, it means it's an evil we put up with.
Putting up with something (Repetitive gameplay) doesn't mean it's good, no matter how much you try to convince me that because I put up with something I should be enjoying it. Having it extremely prolific doesn't mean it's good either. Those are horrible arguments. Please don't ever use them again.
3. You missed the point, so here it is again. MMOs are horribly flawed. Every moment I play it, I'm suffering through the game already just to play with my friends, maybe get a little bit of lore, and hope that I can eke out enough enjoyment from what is usually flawed gameplay systems.
Death penalty is a horrifying penalty because the whole basis behind the penalty is 'forcing you to replay our game, but in a less fun fashion'. MMOs. LESS FUN. As if they weren't unfun enough!
Death penalty, item decay, corpse runs... they're all punishments that have no meaning other than to make you repeat the game without gaining skills.
THIS IS POOR DESIGN.
Replaying something is one thing, but making me replay it + more of what I've already done and gotten over?
POOR DESIGN.
4. Please don't make me simplify my explanation anymore, it'll ruin my stellar impression of the kinds of people who have convinced themselves that treadmill gameplay and 'improvement' through bigger numbers is the apex of game design, and the most beautiful thing such a game can do is to base every game design decision around making people play these wonderful games even more.
Yeah, my constructive advice was...
Admit that most of these penalities are total bullshit timewasters (Most penalties are based around time wasting), and that unless it's MEANINGFUL, it's just a way for the game maker to have you play their game longer, padding out gameplay time and justifying their subscription fees that they want from the customers.
I am fine with death penalties, but it should be things like perma-death.
That's a good punishment. That's a real penalty.
EVE is on the right track. Haven't played Darkfall, but it sort of sounds like they have a good idea too.
Both extremes are fine with me, the middle is just dinking around pretending like they're punishing you, and instead hiding the fact that they can't create good content and things that require real skill to gradually master (You can beat your head against most MMOs until you reach max level, and beat any end level content in these games. That's part of the time wasting, to slow down people who are winning through sheer repetition). Too much improvement through time, rather than actually improving as a player)
Don't pretend you're punishing the players, and let them keep on playing...
... or beat the heck out of them until they're crying and wishing they had picked a game more suited to their poor skills.
That's my constructive advice.
Obviously people can't read what I've been saying. I like death penalties. i LOVE death penalties. Real ones.
(Oh, as a side note, I will accept 'losing weapons and armor in a strongly player-run crafting heavy economy', because this death penalty has a good point to it. It creates a healthy economy, and creates gold sinks and increases the reasons to craft. That's fine. That's death penalty based around improving the game experience, not around wasting time)
I have a perfect solution for you "hardcore" players in this thread. Not only will you be able to enjoy the type of death penalty you would like, but those that don't want harsh death penalties will be able to enjoy their time as well! It's a perfect solution!
Item Degradation on death:
Just delete a couple pieces of your gear every time you die! It perfectly simulations the item destruction that you want! After all, you aren't a hardcore player unless you are willing to go through and grind that same piece of gear again...and again. And since you are a hardcore player, you obviously have unlimited amounts of time to go get those pieces of gear again! Now if you want to be really hardcore, delete your entire set! Nothing says hardcore like deleting all your gear and getting it again. Just think about it. Won't it be fun going through those dungeons again, or going to gather the materials to craft the items, or buying them again! It's a perfect way to pay for the crime you just committed by dying!
Experience loss on Death:
If destroying your items isn't your version of "hardcore", then maybe this is! I have a perfect substitute for experience loss on death! Now I know what you are thinking. "Now bookworm438, you can't remove experience yourself by dying. That must be builting into the game by the developers!" Well by golly I'm here to tell you your wrong. What's the solution I'm sure you are asking by this point? Go through and kill move below the minimum level you gain experience from for the next 2 hours! Not only do you get to not progress your character past the point you were at, but you get to say high to those old mobs!" I'm sure those pixies of doom that you were beating up 10 levels ago miss your company! So for the next 2 hours you get to hang out with them! Killing them again, and again, and again...and one mroe time for good measure. After all nothing says hardcore like willing to go through and kill creatures again and again to pay for the crime you just committed.
Money loss on death:
Now maybe money is your version of a punish more your crime! Now I have a solution for that too! It's so perfect you could be back to no money in no time, and be on your way to grinding your way back to the riches you once had! Go to a local vendor. It can be any vendor too! So it's universal, can be done anywhere! How exciting! Now stop yelling at your computer screen for me to get onto the solution, as I'm sure you are doing. Here's the solution! Go to that local vendor I was talking about. By a large amount of the most expensive but useless item they have, and destroy it! Perfect! That gold you once had is gone, and there's no way of getting back until you pay for your crime! And the payment for your crime is grinding all that money back! Isn't just great! You'll be the envy of everyone when you can go from broke to rich again in no time, and then do it all over again! Everyone will be asking for the secret of how you build your riches, and you get to be the hardcore player you always wanted to be!
Permadeath:
None of those you're cup o' tea? Need something a little bit more hardcore? Something that's the greatest punishment for the crime that you committed? Something such as permadeath? Well I have a solution for that too! It's a solution that says you can't get any more hardcore than this! I'm sure the anticipation is building, as you all read through this portion of the post, wanting to know what the solution is. Ready? Delete your character upon death! Not only delete it, but don't transfer any items or money to another character! Perfect! You'll be the most hardcore and skillful player around! How is that you say? Because you'll have gone through the content over and over again! You'll have had plent of opportunities to gain skill with your class. Nobody will be able to doubt that you are hardcore player now!
None of those your cup o' tea? Maybe your interesting in just ruining the fun of players that want to just get on, have some fun, and get off? Well I'm sorry to tell you, stop. Nobody is interested in playing the way you want to play. Let these people play how they want, while you play how you want. Why force players to waste valuable time repeating content they don't want to repeat? Death in a video game is NOT a crime. No matter how you think of it, it's not a crime. It's a chance for you to go "oh crap, I screwed up!". No amount of death penalty will make a player more skillful. It's main function is to keep players sub- I mean allow players to have fun repeating content they already have done. Skill will one come from challenges that force you to use your character in different ways, and the ability to learn from your mistakes, and of couse time. Admittedly there are some people who just refuse to learn from their mistakes, and those people can't be helped.
If you claim, why on earth would I do this to myself? You are kind of contradicting yourself. You want a harsh death penalty, but you aren't willing to put in the time to punish yourself first. How can you expect us to take you seriously when you aren't willing to go the extra step and try to simulate the effects of a harsh DP.
Vanguard has this type of system and all the other things that the old MMO had.
People complain they want these things and yet their is an MMO less than 4 years old with the best crafting system to date and a vast non instanced world which is a grouping MMO. It has ships, housing, guildhalls and great classes plus 17 races with their own starting areas.
It also has corpse runs and overland named raid bosses plus epic quests and flying mounts.
It's not the same buggy mess it was nearly 4 years ago yet because it's soe people don't want to play it,i really don't understand.
For those looking for the more hardcore MMO then it's alive and kicking in Vanguard.
Obviously these people don't really want what they are asking for or else they would be playing Vanguard.
Your first point doesn't add anything to this discussion. It has no point.
Second, I'm pretty sure if someone held a gun to my head while I was driving, I would drive A LOT more careful for several reasons. One obvious reason would be that I wouldn't want the person holding the gun to accidently fire, so I would be a lot more cautious around bumps. Also, every spors analogy stomps YOUR argument. In every sport, the BEST players play at the highest level of risk and reward. They might practice at lower risk but when a basketball or soccer player are attempting to win in a major league they're going to play BETTER than the people in amateur leagues because they CARE more because there is more risk. That's how they got there in the first place. They might not die if they lose, but there is still other things to lose (money, sponsorship, etc...).
Again, what difference does losing make in a game without penalty? Even in PvP, you're just PvPing to PvP because without risk there is no reward.
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"Fixed it. Because that wall of text attacked me, killed me and looted my body..."
-George "sniperg" Light