In all fairness yelling is heard by everyone while a kind word is usually only heard by the person it is spoken to. Some people though I think have issues that go deeper than the games they try and they can use mmorpg (or more apporpriately forums all over the internet) as a means to vent frustrations for other things going on.
Luckily though those who troll this forum in particular are pretty visible in my opinion and as such anyone who has spent six months or more here can figure out who's opinion holds weight for them or not.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
You have one group that is playing a game actively and pops in every now and then to see whats up.
You have another group that isn't really playing any game and is actively waiting for a game to come out.
Then finally you have the group that is just mad that nothing is coming out they want and just sulk and try and make everything look bad in hopes that devs will change their mind and make the game they want.
The first two are okay. it's the third one thats grumpy. My suggestion? find another genre until they start making games you want. Trying to make a game look bad on a forum is just going to make you look bad, and complaining about a trend is almost as bad. Both by the time you start complaining about it are too far into the forward movement that trying to stop is like an ant trying to stop the train, the game is made, the trend is already in progress. Most people are okay with it. It's the "grumpy" few that nitpick everything apart.
As for people trolling/flaming/whatever else happens on this forum. Happens all the time on every forum. Just seems more on this one because it's general instead of specific so the defenders tend to be less in comparison to the bashers and people who are indifferent to it.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
yes people are grumpy when was the lst time a succesful mmo launched? it's all about scams and hype now and making money on initial sales no developer cares about making a good long running game.....and it sucks
i sure hope you will be able to see how that relates to post #2 now with a little help from good ole wikipedia.
i would like to know how that is flamebaiting. i'm talking about a concept that goes beyond a particular game. goes beyond a particular genre, a particular hobby......past everything and right down to the root of the problem.
please add to the OP's topic instead of saying things are going over MY head. i added to the topic. well i guess you helped me even if it was accidentally.
ad homina homina homina homina homina hominem
i'd link you to "ad hominem" but in case my linking is what set you off, i'll try to be sensitive to your feelings. once the definition is fresh in your memory, please explain why you said that.
can't be much longer before 4-6 more show up and take something as a personal offense.
Again, a reminder to be civil in the discussions and to actually discuss as opposed to "back and forth, back and forth" arguing.
I realize people can be passionate in their points of view but "back and forth bickering" doesn't help.
This is not aimed at anyone in particular, just a reminder for this thread.
It seems no matter what the subject, there is always a group of people bashing and whining about it, Especially when disussing upcoming games releases or current beta's.
I am not sure why, but it would appear that some people have such great expectations of games, that when the details are finally revealed, it is almost as if they are personnaly betrayed because, the developers haven't made : The perfect game :
There has never been a perfect release as far as I can remember, and most successful games today went though growing pains, and were polished along the way, providing excellent entertainment value.
So why i ask do "some" people expect perfection out the gates and immediate satisfaction for their ideal game, where has the growing process gone? where is the love? more often than not, most of the discussions here ultimately develop into a pissing contest of personal opinions and " what i think they should have done "
in real life it doesn't rain skittles and shine rainbows all the time, it would be nice to see more productive discussions, than the usual ( trion sucks/wow clone/remeber NGE? SOE sucks)
we will never experience the joy and passion we felt when we first delved into the mmo market, and truthfully in the beginning games like UO and EQ had their issues as well, I dare say more than now.
Perhaps, those who enjoy games expect what the company says it will put out. Perhaps, expectations are created by the develoopers who set the stadge then put out a product that is not as they say it is. Perhaps, players who support the game that developers have reported are...betrayed. Perhaps, players expect that when they put out cash for a game, they get what they are told the game will be...upon release and not a portion of the said product. Perhaps, the information put out by this "grumpy community" saves players money and time with factual information. ...Perhaps.
A grumpy community is a productive community (As long as they see the real problems they are having instead of just rambling like "I want to grind" and similar stuff).
A happy community is a satisfied one, the oen's to be blamed are the games that have failed to cater these individuals.
i sure hope you will be able to see how that relates to post #2 now with a little help from good ole wikipedia.
i would like to know how that is flamebaiting. i'm talking about a concept that goes beyond a particular game. goes beyond a particular genre, a particular hobby......past everything and right down to the root of the problem.
please add to the OP's topic instead of saying things are going over MY head. i added to the topic. well i guess you helped me even if it was accidentally.
ad homina homina homina homina homina hominem
i'd link you to "ad hominem" but in case my linking is what set you off, i'll try to be sensitive to your feelings. once the definition is fresh in your memory, please explain why you said that.
can't be much longer before 4-6 more show up and take something as a personal offense.
Gnoming- The opposite of trolling. Opening yourself right up for being insulted. Flamebaiting if you will. "Asking for it". Essentially, you are trying to create an argument. I really don't see it any other way. In fact, post #4 is completely uncalled for because the OP is trying to establish a competent discussion and then post #4 seems like an attempt to instigate and derail the discussion. Anyway, that's not the point of my post so don't take it as an attack on your logic.
From the time I've been on the forum, there hasn't been one time where I've been surfing the topics and I've thought to myself "Wow, everything seems calm and intelligent today." These forums are always grumpy because there is always something for someone to complain about.
With respect to people being grumpy over the quality of released MMO's, I can sort of see where they are coming from (Note: what I say may have already been said by someone else but it's just a part of my thought process). It does seem that a majority of players are getting tired of most of the products that are being released because they fail to meet their expectations. That in itself is the root of the problem, high expectations. We have all played so many MMO's and for so long that we have created our ideal MMO in our heads, and we keep hoping that the next release is going to be our perfect game. However, with a fan base as large as the MMO community you're going to have nearly as many individual ideas as fans. I am not saying expect a pile of garbage of every new game or change your idea of a perfect MMO (I don't expect many of you will anyway) but I am saying try going into a game expecting less or ignoring the hype, because let's face it, hype is satan.
Some of you will say that we shouldn't expect anything less than what we are shown of a game. You are partly correct. You have to remember that information on a game is released in order to attract customers. It's basically marketing. So some of what you see will be embellished, in some cases unrealistically. So when you play or test a game, maybe it's best to be candid. This last bit may sound condescending but I'm not trying to be.
It seems no matter what the subject, there is always a group of people bashing and whining about it, Especially when disussing upcoming games releases or current beta's.
I am not sure why, but it would appear that some people have such great expectations of games, that when the details are finally revealed, it is almost as if they are personnaly betrayed because, the developers haven't made : The perfect game :
There has never been a perfect release as far as I can remember, and most successful games today went though growing pains, and were polished along the way, providing excellent entertainment value.
So why i ask do "some" people expect perfection out the gates and immediate satisfaction for their ideal game, where has the growing process gone? where is the love? more often than not, most of the discussions here ultimately develop into a pissing contest of personal opinions and " what i think they should have done "
in real life it doesn't rain skittles and shine rainbows all the time, it would be nice to see more productive discussions, than the usual ( trion sucks/wow clone/remeber NGE? SOE sucks)
we will never experience the joy and passion we felt when we first delved into the mmo market, and truthfully in the beginning games like UO and EQ had their issues as well, I dare say more than now.
It's just fun to cut other people's optimism down. It's human nature. Don't tell me you've never done it!
Seems quite obvious to me, the hypeometer has been running full speed on most of these MMO's yet they all seem to ship in less than beta form, with as little content as possible. They all seem to have these new features, yet they are just something extracted from previous MMO's.
Hence the feeling of disappointment from many of us. Then you have the fans of the game making ridiculous statements and off we go. If you are going to sprout questionable information about a game, expect to have people call you on it.
Seems quite obvious to me, the hypeometer has been running full speed on most of these MMO's yet they all seem to ship in less than beta form, with as little content as possible. They all seem to have these new features, yet they are just something extracted from previous MMO's.
Hence the feeling of disappointment from many of us. Then you have the fans of the game making ridiculous statements and off we go. If you are going to sprout questionable information about a game, expect to have people call you on it.
I think this point is probably true regarding a lot of games, but I believe your statement reflects a problem with gamers' expectations more than game development.
If you look at this list, you'll see that all of these games were released more than 3 years ago and most were released more than 5. Even games not on the list that do fairly well in the American market: EVE, COX, EQ2, LotRO, DDO. All more than 3 years old. Most mmorpg players have not been playing as long as most of these games have been out.
So what's my point? Every one of these games have been in constant development since release. Taking WoW as an example: they've doubled their content since release and have been polishing their game and making improvements that please their player base for five years. I have no numbers to back up this assumption, but I'd bet Blizzard has spent far more money on WoW since release than they were able to spend before release. And that would go for most other games as well.
The reality is that new games simply can't compete. They don't have the finances nor the time during production to release anywhere near the content of a WoW or EQ2 or LotRO and polish is an ongoing process when it comes to MMOs. But players, unfortunately, want it all right now.
My suggestion is this: if you find a new game that you enjoy you may want to overlook the many flaws that it is bound to have upon release. If the game gets 3 years of life before everyone bails it probably will end up being pretty darn good. But alas, the train may have left the station for new mmo developers. 5 years ago, a game could be released with the polish and content of vanilla WoW and still succeed. That would never happen in today's market.
I was pleasantly surprised when I went from Apprentice to full 5 star Elite in under 2 months. I was pleasantly surprised again when I went from Elite to just barely Hardcore in 2 weeks. Apprentice, here I come!
OP, it's a cyclical thing. New game in development, people follow it, decide it's going to be "their game", will brook no disagreement about quality/enjoyability of said game, even from folks who say "it's fine, but just not my thing".
Through CB and OB there are posts either in the excessively positive or the needlessly negative vein, and most "ordinary" forumgoers just watch from the sidelines. Then there is launch and an exponential increase in both "best game evah" and "not the game I dreamed up in my head it could/would be" posts, with a side order of random qq puddles...and flamewars.
Then it all smooths out again only to take off when the next game on the horizon shows up. Seriously, it's been like this for years (and not just on mmorpg.com, go to the general forums of any pre-launch title and you can see the hype/hate levels rise, peak and sputter out), it's just particularly terribad at the moment because so many games are nearing release.
Take it all with truckloads of salt, and it's more bearable. Take your salt on some popcorn and you'll begin to find it more entertaining than dismaying. To be honest I find it pretty amazing that after so many years, and so many games, the cycle continues exactly as before...you'd think we'd all have spotted the patterns by now
No matter what you do, how much you work, how much content you add, how shiny you make it look.. someone is going to find 'something' to gripe about. Haters are gonna hate, and fish will continue to breathe underwater.
I say go ahead and let the nay-sayers stay in their dark little corners of depression and despair, and just have fun no matter what anyone says.
Don't be afraid to stand behind what you like and do your own thing.
If millions of people enjoy mediocre graphics, a stale storyline, and doing the same dungeons over and over again to get some pile of armor that looks like everyone elses', don't feel like you have to be one of them. Get behind your quiet little indy titles with the prettier grapics and smaller fanbase.
If all else fails... you can just ignore their post.
The reality is that new games simply can't compete. They don't have the finances nor the time during production to release anywhere near the content of a WoW or EQ2 or LotRO and polish is an ongoing process when it comes to MMOs. But players, unfortunately, want it all right now.
and that is why so many people are grumpy.
that company after company, game after game comes out futilely throwing money at the opportunity to take their tiny cut of a pie (a particular type of MMO) that already has a ton of companies/games eating away at it, and doesn't have a whole lot remaining in the dish.
they should at least be TRYing to go for all the untouched & barely touched pies.
and it will continue to get worse over time until enough different MMO types are out to satisfy the growing group of people that currently aren't satisfied with any.
and there's already HUGE group (that is rapidly getting larger all the time) that would love a virtual world experience...... if they could get one with actual fun gameplay like they are used to in the single/small-scale-multiplayer space.
______________________________________ Play my entire game FREE if you want
I guess I should wade in myself. Yes folks have been grumpy and why not. I will give a list of the reasons why.
(1) 2010 a horrible year for all mmo's
(2) A bed year for mmo's that were released
(3) A lot of expansion packs that were junk
(4) A lot of games going spiraling down hill without anything substantial to take their place
(5) Lots of lazy development in a lot of games making tons of users unhappy
A lot of folks live and breath by the mmo they are playing, thus the rabid fanboy types, and when things go sour folks get upset. This is what we are seeing. The economy just about shot to pieces, many folks having to cut back. That means less development staff, and very thin things happening in mmo.s
I can't blame folks for being grumpy this past year. It was a very bad year all around. Next year we have 3 or 4 hopefully titles coming out, and a lot of high hopes. If those fail like the ones did this year, I would expect things on this board to get even worse.
Oh well just my 2 cents worth , and I know thats worth nothing nowdays.
So this is a bashing thread about game bashing threads?
A good way to make a discussion not turn bashy is by starting a general discussion by offering ideas and asking more more. This thread is not doing said task ;p.
Comments
In all fairness yelling is heard by everyone while a kind word is usually only heard by the person it is spoken to. Some people though I think have issues that go deeper than the games they try and they can use mmorpg (or more apporpriately forums all over the internet) as a means to vent frustrations for other things going on.
Luckily though those who troll this forum in particular are pretty visible in my opinion and as such anyone who has spent six months or more here can figure out who's opinion holds weight for them or not.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
In my opinion you have three types of people.
You have one group that is playing a game actively and pops in every now and then to see whats up.
You have another group that isn't really playing any game and is actively waiting for a game to come out.
Then finally you have the group that is just mad that nothing is coming out they want and just sulk and try and make everything look bad in hopes that devs will change their mind and make the game they want.
The first two are okay. it's the third one thats grumpy. My suggestion? find another genre until they start making games you want. Trying to make a game look bad on a forum is just going to make you look bad, and complaining about a trend is almost as bad. Both by the time you start complaining about it are too far into the forward movement that trying to stop is like an ant trying to stop the train, the game is made, the trend is already in progress. Most people are okay with it. It's the "grumpy" few that nitpick everything apart.
As for people trolling/flaming/whatever else happens on this forum. Happens all the time on every forum. Just seems more on this one because it's general instead of specific so the defenders tend to be less in comparison to the bashers and people who are indifferent to it.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
Please, no personal attacks on people.
Rules of Conduct reminder:
http://www.mmorpg.com/disclaimers.cfm#conduct
yes people are grumpy when was the lst time a succesful mmo launched? it's all about scams and hype now and making money on initial sales no developer cares about making a good long running game.....and it sucks
Again, a reminder to be civil in the discussions and to actually discuss as opposed to "back and forth, back and forth" arguing.
I realize people can be passionate in their points of view but "back and forth bickering" doesn't help.
This is not aimed at anyone in particular, just a reminder for this thread.
Perhaps, those who enjoy games expect what the company says it will put out. Perhaps, expectations are created by the develoopers who set the stadge then put out a product that is not as they say it is. Perhaps, players who support the game that developers have reported are...betrayed. Perhaps, players expect that when they put out cash for a game, they get what they are told the game will be...upon release and not a portion of the said product. Perhaps, the information put out by this "grumpy community" saves players money and time with factual information. ...Perhaps.
A grumpy community is a productive community (As long as they see the real problems they are having instead of just rambling like "I want to grind" and similar stuff).
A happy community is a satisfied one, the oen's to be blamed are the games that have failed to cater these individuals.
Gnoming- The opposite of trolling. Opening yourself right up for being insulted. Flamebaiting if you will. "Asking for it". Essentially, you are trying to create an argument. I really don't see it any other way. In fact, post #4 is completely uncalled for because the OP is trying to establish a competent discussion and then post #4 seems like an attempt to instigate and derail the discussion. Anyway, that's not the point of my post so don't take it as an attack on your logic.
From the time I've been on the forum, there hasn't been one time where I've been surfing the topics and I've thought to myself "Wow, everything seems calm and intelligent today." These forums are always grumpy because there is always something for someone to complain about.
With respect to people being grumpy over the quality of released MMO's, I can sort of see where they are coming from (Note: what I say may have already been said by someone else but it's just a part of my thought process). It does seem that a majority of players are getting tired of most of the products that are being released because they fail to meet their expectations. That in itself is the root of the problem, high expectations. We have all played so many MMO's and for so long that we have created our ideal MMO in our heads, and we keep hoping that the next release is going to be our perfect game. However, with a fan base as large as the MMO community you're going to have nearly as many individual ideas as fans. I am not saying expect a pile of garbage of every new game or change your idea of a perfect MMO (I don't expect many of you will anyway) but I am saying try going into a game expecting less or ignoring the hype, because let's face it, hype is satan.
Some of you will say that we shouldn't expect anything less than what we are shown of a game. You are partly correct. You have to remember that information on a game is released in order to attract customers. It's basically marketing. So some of what you see will be embellished, in some cases unrealistically. So when you play or test a game, maybe it's best to be candid. This last bit may sound condescending but I'm not trying to be.
It's just fun to cut other people's optimism down. It's human nature. Don't tell me you've never done it!
Seems quite obvious to me, the hypeometer has been running full speed on most of these MMO's yet they all seem to ship in less than beta form, with as little content as possible. They all seem to have these new features, yet they are just something extracted from previous MMO's.
Hence the feeling of disappointment from many of us. Then you have the fans of the game making ridiculous statements and off we go. If you are going to sprout questionable information about a game, expect to have people call you on it.
I think this point is probably true regarding a lot of games, but I believe your statement reflects a problem with gamers' expectations more than game development.
I found this list of the most subscribed to games in the world. http://daeity.blogspot.com/2010/12/worlds-most-popular-mmorpg.html
If you look at this list, you'll see that all of these games were released more than 3 years ago and most were released more than 5. Even games not on the list that do fairly well in the American market: EVE, COX, EQ2, LotRO, DDO. All more than 3 years old. Most mmorpg players have not been playing as long as most of these games have been out.
So what's my point? Every one of these games have been in constant development since release. Taking WoW as an example: they've doubled their content since release and have been polishing their game and making improvements that please their player base for five years. I have no numbers to back up this assumption, but I'd bet Blizzard has spent far more money on WoW since release than they were able to spend before release. And that would go for most other games as well.
The reality is that new games simply can't compete. They don't have the finances nor the time during production to release anywhere near the content of a WoW or EQ2 or LotRO and polish is an ongoing process when it comes to MMOs. But players, unfortunately, want it all right now.
My suggestion is this: if you find a new game that you enjoy you may want to overlook the many flaws that it is bound to have upon release. If the game gets 3 years of life before everyone bails it probably will end up being pretty darn good. But alas, the train may have left the station for new mmo developers. 5 years ago, a game could be released with the polish and content of vanilla WoW and still succeed. That would never happen in today's market.
I was pleasantly surprised when I went from Apprentice to full 5 star Elite in under 2 months. I was pleasantly surprised again when I went from Elite to just barely Hardcore in 2 weeks. Apprentice, here I come!
There was once a time without anyone complaining ?
I am kinda wondering when thats supposed to be.
Definitely before my time.
Probably before the homo sapiens appeared on the face of the world, even.
OP, it's a cyclical thing. New game in development, people follow it, decide it's going to be "their game", will brook no disagreement about quality/enjoyability of said game, even from folks who say "it's fine, but just not my thing".
Through CB and OB there are posts either in the excessively positive or the needlessly negative vein, and most "ordinary" forumgoers just watch from the sidelines. Then there is launch and an exponential increase in both "best game evah" and "not the game I dreamed up in my head it could/would be" posts, with a side order of random qq puddles...and flamewars.
Then it all smooths out again only to take off when the next game on the horizon shows up. Seriously, it's been like this for years (and not just on mmorpg.com, go to the general forums of any pre-launch title and you can see the hype/hate levels rise, peak and sputter out), it's just particularly terribad at the moment because so many games are nearing release.
Take it all with truckloads of salt, and it's more bearable. Take your salt on some popcorn and you'll begin to find it more entertaining than dismaying. To be honest I find it pretty amazing that after so many years, and so many games, the cycle continues exactly as before...you'd think we'd all have spotted the patterns by now
No matter what you do, how much you work, how much content you add, how shiny you make it look.. someone is going to find 'something' to gripe about. Haters are gonna hate, and fish will continue to breathe underwater.
I say go ahead and let the nay-sayers stay in their dark little corners of depression and despair, and just have fun no matter what anyone says.
Don't be afraid to stand behind what you like and do your own thing.
If millions of people enjoy mediocre graphics, a stale storyline, and doing the same dungeons over and over again to get some pile of armor that looks like everyone elses', don't feel like you have to be one of them. Get behind your quiet little indy titles with the prettier grapics and smaller fanbase.
If all else fails... you can just ignore their post.
and that is why so many people are grumpy.
that company after company, game after game comes out futilely throwing money at the opportunity to take their tiny cut of a pie (a particular type of MMO) that already has a ton of companies/games eating away at it, and doesn't have a whole lot remaining in the dish.
they should at least be TRYing to go for all the untouched & barely touched pies.
and it will continue to get worse over time until enough different MMO types are out to satisfy the growing group of people that currently aren't satisfied with any.
and there's already HUGE group (that is rapidly getting larger all the time) that would love a virtual world experience...... if they could get one with actual fun gameplay like they are used to in the single/small-scale-multiplayer space.
______________________________________
Play my entire game FREE if you want
http://PlayRealNotes.com
I guess I should wade in myself. Yes folks have been grumpy and why not. I will give a list of the reasons why.
(1) 2010 a horrible year for all mmo's
(2) A bed year for mmo's that were released
(3) A lot of expansion packs that were junk
(4) A lot of games going spiraling down hill without anything substantial to take their place
(5) Lots of lazy development in a lot of games making tons of users unhappy
A lot of folks live and breath by the mmo they are playing, thus the rabid fanboy types, and when things go sour folks get upset. This is what we are seeing. The economy just about shot to pieces, many folks having to cut back. That means less development staff, and very thin things happening in mmo.s
I can't blame folks for being grumpy this past year. It was a very bad year all around. Next year we have 3 or 4 hopefully titles coming out, and a lot of high hopes. If those fail like the ones did this year, I would expect things on this board to get even worse.
Oh well just my 2 cents worth , and I know thats worth nothing nowdays.
BAH HUMBUG@!!
So this is a bashing thread about game bashing threads?
A good way to make a discussion not turn bashy is by starting a general discussion by offering ideas and asking more more. This thread is not doing said task ;p.