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Some interesting info on BW
whilan
Member UncommonPosts: 3,472
Apparently BW had interest to make an MMO long before ToR came out.
Daemian over at swtor.com wrote this nice little history article and i thought i link it.
Let's talk a little bit about history*. Some of these conversations must seem awfully familiar to Bioware by now. I've emphasized some of the key points and concepts.
Many people don't realize BioWare have been MMO fans since the early 90's with the original NWN. They've been dabbling and experimenting with the MMO genre since 1996 with a little known project called RPG Battlegrounds, to the persistent world servers of Neverwinter Nights, all the way to the present.
They didn't have the technology or the resources for an MMO at the time, but it was their experience with RPG Battlegrounds that led to the initial creation of Baldur's Gate using the D&D license. The same arguments used today regarding deep story vs fast action were used back then to pit RPGs versus hack-and-slash action games. And back then, it was the same companies being talked about.
'Blizzard's Diablo had paved the way for a much leaner, action-based, dialogue-averse role-playing game model, so something as unashamedly hardcore as Baldur's Gate seemed destined to sink. "The RPG was in trouble," Muzyka concurs.
The result was one of the most original games of the decade, one that set the stage for more or less every Western RPG made since... eventually becoming one of the highest selling RPGs of the nineties.'
Following that was BGII. "The goals were pretty straightforward," Zeschuk says, "Just 'more, better', basically. We made a list of 100 things we wanted to improve and we got all the way down that list."
'Lead designer James Ohlen describes the game as the one where management allowed him to go "a little crazy" in terms of the content on offer.'
Next came Neverwinter Nights and the Aurora Toolset."The game was based on the concept of building an internet-like model for a massively multiplayer game, allowing the end users to host the server. The belief was this model would create a potentially infinite massively multiplayer game framework. The game was named after the original Neverwinter Nights online game, the first graphical MMORPG, which ran from 1991 to 1997 on AOL." - Wikipedia
'The result was a game and community that still thrive 7 years on.'
Breaking the mold yet again: RPG on the console? Nah. Oh, yeah. KOTOR. Also known as "the prospect of having to produce a deep, non-linear RPG for a format once considered anathema to that sort of thing." Sound familiar? They succeeded so well in changing that perception that now some gamers are saying 'Bioware is a console developer' as an argument against them succeeding in the PC MMORPG market.
Jade Empire took the concept of the alignment system from D&D and the force from Star Wars to experiment with refining the concept of light and dark outside of the standards of those IPs - "the opposing philosophical schools of Open Palm and Closed Fist."
'With driving sections and a much more immediate approach to combat and dialogue, Mass Effect was also Bioware's most action-based videogame to date.'
Dragon Age: Origins was Bioware's 'first RPG to abandon the dualistic model.' "There's no black-and-white system of good and evil here. You're going to have to do some things that are kind of grey." - Ray Muzyka
Now they've set their sights squarely on the MMO market with SWTOR. And everyone's asking... "How many of BioWare's current fans double as WoW zealots? Zeschuk considers."In an MMO such as The Old Republic we're creating an environment that's fully expandable for mass numbers of players, with a Bioware-quality story. The experiences are different but can be both very fulfilling and cater to numerous gaming styles." '
Not only did Bioware help resurrect a dying genre to the point where today a game like Mass Effect 2 has sold in the multiple millions within the first week, they are intimately familiar with the deep and varied history of MMOs.
You can find the article in it's intact format (I edited out the parts that didn't refer to the history part) and the rest of the forum posts here http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=226490&page=58 If that doesn't for some reason put you on page 58, you can go to it manually.
Just thought that be interesting to share.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
Comments
That was interesting. I didn't know just how deep the history went. They mentioned one of my top 3 single player games of all time, Baldurs Gate. I loved that game :-). The other 2 are Advanced Dungeons and Dragons from the early 80s on Intellivision and the original Legends of Zelda on Nintento lol. there is no doubt Bioware is a master of RPG. I think they are going to be the master of MMORPG very shortly. :-)
There Is Always Hope!
I have to agree with keithianw overall, and especially about Baldur's Gate. The next two in my top 10 would look different, since they are both BioWare games, but really besides the point. Thanks for the post Whilan.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
Not a problem guys. I always try and share the info as i find it.
With that, i'm heading off to bed. Will keep up the search tomorrow.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
Well said, a good read.
Unfortuantely I never got to play Baldur's Gate. But the sequel was almost perfect. It set the bar for what a deep complex RPG should be.
What the OP doesn't realize, there is a difference between knowing what makes an MMO, and wanting to make MMO money. All the single player developers belive they should be making MMO money for replayability of their single player games. I haven't played this title yet, and I have read posts that give me hope for the quality of the game play.
But here is a fact regarding my gameplay. When I used Voice Chat in an MMO I tend to yell over the background music. So now I tend to mute all in game audio. For instance I played Kotor 1 & 2 with the sound off. For me the Voice Acting is un-used expense. Also the guilds I've been in level together, and All they wantfrom a quest is where to go, what to do , and how many to bring back. Only time will tell.
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
I can agree and disagree with you here Konfess. You make a good point with the voice over and in one of the interviews they did specifically say you could turn it off and get the text instead. I won't be doing that, but I am sure that some will and I find this a good feature.
Also, while BioWare may not have any TRUE experience making an MMO, as you point out, Whilan does show us in this article he found that they are not exactly amateurs at it either. That was to directly refute many peoples claims that they can't do this project (At least I think that was the point.).
Lastly, I have to completely disagree with you on the MMO money comment. Unless this game does pull a WoW, it will not make a lot of money to be honest and most companies know this. While MMO's do make a considerable amount of money over time, the faster money is in spending a year or so developing a single person game and releasing that, then moving on to the next one. An MMO takes a lot of resources, both in the realm of people and materials, to keep it running and to be honest, most MMOs just do not make the kind of cash to be a primary source of income for a company. Because of the company making this game, the Name Brand of the game, and the experience of the developers I think this game will make money, but I am not sure that it will be a huge profit until I see the final product.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
PvP fans will use the option to turn voice-overs into quest text. They will rush through to endgame in order to have the best gear and skills for pvp. BW knows this.
But hopefully the endgame raiders can rush to the end and enjoy the raids, the PvPers can rush to the end and enjoy the top PvP, and the people who want the story can take their time and enjoy the immersive story and voice overs.
One issue that keeps coming up, like a red elephant in the room, is "raiders confusion." People who rush to the endgame in all their MMOs are seriously confused by the info about SWTOR so far. It will have endgame and raids, but it also has story. Do you rush through, just use quest text as an option, and get to max level as fast as possible so you can raid? Or do you take your time, get immersed in the characters and story, then start another a new character?
Basically I think some raiders confused by this new option. The option that in SWTOR you can have as much fun taking your time and enjoying the story as you could rushing to the end to raid or to pvp.
The general point behind this post was:
1. To point out that they had wanted to do an MMO for a long time (not just some money grab thing)
2. To point out that they had some experience with this type of thing before just not the whole thing (NWN servers)
3. To point out that they indeed like MMOs (as they kept doing research into it)
4. That people question if BW can do something has come up multiple times before and that they (pleasently) keep getting proven wrong by BW
Basically your right, it was to rebute the people who say that they don't have any MMO experience or (understandbly) question wether BW can make a good MMO. We still don't know (except for the testers) if the game will be good, but i think history can tell us they aren't really noobs at it either. They have some MMO experience.
The other reason i put this article up was to show a trend
The people said true RPGs are dead, people want hack and slash, then BW comes out with BG and people buy it like crazy. Thus proving them wrong.
Then people said they can't do a story heavy game on console, BW does it with ME and proves em wrong again.
Then people say that BW won't make a good MMO....Wether they can or not is unkown but people only have to see 1+1 equals 2 so many times before they just assume it does. BW continously gets the doubt card thrown at them and they continously live up to it. wether they do or not here is the question but i'm going to lean on the side of history and put my cofindents that they know a tad bit more about games then me.
This isn't a bash against any type of people just to put more credience on why we put our faith in BW, they have shown in the past that they can do some pretty impressive things, that this isn't IGG or some other company like cryptic that makes games to get money real quick by shoving out games too quick, this is a company that cares about MMOs, what their gamers want and has the knowledge to pull it off. I'd suggest to just give them the benefit of the doubt until we actually see what the game is like before bashing the game.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
The Bioware team making this game is composed by developers with years of experience in the MMO industry. The people leading that team are a mix of oldschool people in Bioware and a mix of people from other MMO's like Ultima Online, Everquest and SWG.
Also you can skip the dialogue if you want, but you are underestimanting what the voice overs can do. I already seen multiple beta testers that did power leveling in other games, saying they actually didn't skip one line of dialogue and saying they were sucked up to the story. Of course theres always the people who will skip it no matter what, but i think alot of guys that have that kind of mentality will be surprised.
I am not concerned about their lack of MMO experience.
They are foremost, a good GAME company. That is more important.
Look at EQ ... first MMO from SOE.
Look at WOW .. first MMO from Blizzard.
Look at Eve ... first MMO from CCP.
You are just one individual. I am sure you will find a game you like somewhere, your choice to ignore cntent which is key to the game is your choice again who really cares.
________________________________________________________
Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
QFT short but so true; this can work both ways I am sure there have been a lot more failures than success but I am a believer and Bioware are Professional to the point where I cannot see them failing. So many people are going to enjoy this the haters will get dragged along and end up loving the game as well.
________________________________________________________
Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
Don't be surprised when SWTOR gets millions of subscribers, cause I won't be. Nice post OP you dug up some information I didn't exactly know about or heard of in that context. Good find.
My thoughts are that new MMO companies are more likely to take an initiative in adding their own focus to the current model. Blizzard did this in game play (casual as well as competitive), while Bioware is looking to add story depth / cinematic.
Kinda funny, I was leveling my alt to 85 through WoW's Uldum, when I realized that someone at Blizzard was a Bioware fan. The methodology of using the character in the various cut scences is something straight out of Mass Effect / Dragon Age.
So... let me get this straight.. Bioware has been trying to beat Blizzard for a decade now? ....No shit.. they are sure doing a good job of it too..
Edit: I noticed I missed two letters in this post lol.
This is not a game.
Wait wait wait... So Bioware is a singular autonomous sentient being that has persisted through time since 1995?
Did you read that article in Klingon or something?
Alltern8 Blog | Star Wars Space Combat and The Old Republic | Cryptic Studios - A Pre Post-Mortem | Klingon Preview, STO's Monster Play
Yes I did read it in Klingon apparently, my deductions were thoroughly wrong. Excuse me while I go punish myself.
Edit: /sarcasm
This is not a game.
Voiceovers are nice. I do however worry that the game will be like Dragon age and get that feeling of watching someone else play for long periods.
Bioware used cut scenes great in Neverwinter night. In DA:O they did pass the line, and not by little. Cut scenes, instances and phasing are all great tools if used wisely but if you overuse them it turns the game into crap.
So I hope DA:O just was a mistake cut scene wise.
Bioware have been Blizzards arch enemy since Diablo went against Baldurs gate and some people prefer company and others the other. They have both released many games but that does not mean that TOR or Titan will be great games. With computer games you must prove yourself every time you make a new game.
I am personally somewhat upset that they didn't maker a MMO version of Neverwinter nights or Baldurs game instead. KOTOR was not a bad game but not in class with those 2 either. #¤%& Atari have the license for Forgotten realms and that sucks.
When did people ever say that?
This is not a game.
sorry that was a mistake heres the quote, i believe if i'm not mistaken again that it was kotor.
Breaking the mold yet again: RPG on the console? Nah. Oh, yeah. KOTOR. Also known as "the prospect of having to produce a deep, non-linear RPG for a format once considered anathema to that sort of thing." Sound familiar? They succeeded so well in changing that perception that now some gamers are saying 'Bioware is a console developer' as an argument against them succeeding in the PC MMORPG market.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
Loke if they made the MMO version of NWN , that would be a huge storm ... but they choose to create SW cause they had the free reign given , while in DnD they would have been handicapped .
Its Bioware after all , about the other thing what you say about cutscenes aka DA:O sadly SWtOR in my opnion going to be like that , BUT with true MMORPG elements in place .
But anyway you are a hardcore fantasy lover , there is no point in trying to convince you to shift genre , cause my wife is the same , Sorry First MMORPG she doesn´t like cause its SCI FI and STAR WARS .
So SCI FI does have a stigma in MMORPG if this was fantasy , the game hype was into heavens by now .
But otherside after STO failure , SCI FI fans , might finally get there hands on a REAL MMORPG .
" PvP fans will use the option to turn voice-overs into quest text. They will rush through to endgame in order to have the best gear and skills for pvp. BW knows this. "
Not true at all. I am a dedicated PvP player but I plan to really enjoy the story in TOR. Not to mention I am a huge fan of single player RPGs as well. By your logic, anyone who likes PvP really doesn't even like gaming. lol
In all fairness Ashanor, I think he was talking in terms of generalities and in my experience, he would be right. As usual, there will always be people like you who break the mold, but in general PvPers are not too interested in the "story" aspects of a game.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"