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Is a good Star Trek MMO possible?
OzHawkeye
Member Posts: 13
So there's obviously a lot of negativity here about Star Trek Online (much of which I've also endorsed myself), and indeed a fair bit on the STO forums as well, about the disappointing elements to the game. The more I think of it though, and see some of the posts people make about it, I'm led to wonder, is the Star Trek IP even suitable to an MMO?
The ultimate goal of most Star Trek fans, is to play what they've seen growing up or old, for the last 44 years (yes, 44 years.) However, there's much to this ethos that doesn't fit inside a cookie-cutter MMO (certainly) and may well not suit the genre at all (possibly).
Star Trek isn't about blowing up everything you see. This means the MMO most of us wanted to see had to have good non-combat content. Of course, the problem there is just how do you do good non-combat content? Even in the MMO's I've thoroughly enjoyed (for example, WoW or Lotro) there wasn't a lot of non-combat content I was particularly thrilled with. In the MMO industry non-combat content can be translated as either Fedex quests (go here, deliver this) or collection quests (pick 10 of these). It's no different in STO (unfortunately).
Star Trek loves mysteries. Many of the best episodes (one of my personal favourites is the ST:TNG episode "Clues") involved the crew trying to solve a mystery. But again, no MMO I've seen really does this well, because it means non-linear quests, where the wrong choice can lead you down the wrong path. Again STO failed to do this - and what very small non-liner quest content there is, is easily completed by a brute-force approach fo trying all options (or reading walkthroughs).
Star Trek loved challening morality through choices. A great example of this the Voyager episode "Nothing Human" where the doctor has to decide whether or not to use a hologram mimicking a hated Cardassian war criminal. But again, how do you factor moral choices into a standard MMO (I hear the new Star Wars MMO is trying something along these lines though).
Combat, linear progression and questing, loot progression, level grinding, these techniques that form such staples of MMO's, both good and bad, are concepts that don't necessarily translate well to an IP that espouses a largely (but not exclusively) peacable, altruistic future. So what are your thoughts? Is a good Star Trek MMO even possible? And if so, how?
Comments
Very good question. I played the Star Trek Online MMO for about 2 weeks and quit. It was very pretty and glossy but really just a poor copy of what's gone before.
I have thought about this a bit as well and wonder if a Star Trek game is possible. My initial reaction is that EvE Online's persistent world is probably the closest mould I can think of. Players could play 6 major races (3 aligned on both sides) and basically fight for space, explore and set up stations. Throw in a lot of missions that allow morale choices e.g. federation player being offered a lot of cash to transport drugs.
Ships could work the same as they are supposed to be so big and keep the officer slots the same.
The way it is now, its just a glorified arcade game.
I remember discussing this with people before STOs release. I said no but it is probably possible.
I think however such a game would be for Trekkies only. You can't make it with one player controlling a ship himself, that is just too far from the series.
You would at least have to have a player for each important member of the crew. You can NPC the rest.
Have a Captain (Kirk), a Science officer (Spock), a engineer (Scotty), A medical officer (McCoy) , A pilot or 2 (Sulu and Checkov) and whatever Uhura does. With a good AI that makes it possible to play with one or a few a time (even Kirk needs to sleep) while a NPC fills the other rolls it could work. A chain of command leaving someone else as the Captain we he isn't logged on is also a must.
Then you of course need to take away the shoot first, ask questions later mentality of other MMOs as well.
Problem is that everyone wants to play captain and that most general MMO players probably just like to kill things.
You could have shifting positions depending on who logged in first, achievement or something else of course but it would be against the lore....
One ship one player just can't replicate Star trek in any way. The important thing have always been interaction between crew members in the series.
It's a good job that before release and shortly after, Cryptic said they weren't aiming for an MMO style game. They were just making a fun game that peopel can log into and play when they have a spare hour.
It was the players that started to call it a full blown mmo.
This runs very close to Perpetuals original concept for the MMO. As much as it sounds good in theory though, I could imagine it being a complete trainwreck in practice, particularly for pugging (and let's face it, and MMO with the ability to pug would be a real problem).
The other problem of course, is what do the non-captain characters do. As I said, great idea in theory, but it'd be a real pain in the ass to try and get right in practice.
When I first saw announcement for Star Trek Online, I was so happy. I expected many things like:
Enourmous universe to explore, including planets where a colony can we settled
Meeting new species and doing diplomacy, or if it fails battle with them
Federetion rank system. You start at the lowest rank and you get a job on the spaceship that is controled by a human that has a captain rank, and trough time and getting various achievements you get promoted, until someday you become a captain and get a ship of your own
Or another version of it is that one 'guild' has one big starship and the leader of the guild is the captain, and other members have their ranks that are given by the captain.
Complex politics system, you got the federation's headquaters that issue the orders to the captains which can be human created quests for the entire 'guilds' (guild is one starship with one captain, and its members). And you got civilians, you can have the president of the entire planet which can request some services from the federation, the president can also control the planets development (this is optional:P)
Complex spaceship battle system, where one person don't control the whole ship, but the whole crew, where you have the captain which only gives orders to the crew, you got engineers that control speed for example and repair the damaged sections, you got the wingman that steer the ship, you got security crew that fight the intruders, and control the weaponry of the ship etc.
No leveling system only rank system that can be raised or lowered based on your achievements
Choosing between being a civilian, federation officer, illegal freelancer (which smuggles the goods, steals from civilians, is hiding from the federation and everyone else that he considers a treat)
Note: everything this is for the federation races, now you got many other races that are not part of the federation and you got their ranking system and everything mentioned....
So basicly I wanted too much from STO, I wanted to be something huge, where the whole humanity (or the federation) works together, fights the invaders, explores the universe, does diplomacy and forge alliances etc etc...
People generaly had too big expectations thats why they are somwhat disapointed with it.
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Yeah, that is why I think it would mainly work for Trekkies.
Of course would the rest do boarding parties and it isn't really the captain that controls the ship, the pilot and engineering dude is actually doing that. The Captain is giving the orders and speak with anyone who calls.
With voice coms as standard I think it actually could work with the right number of player, particularly if you have a lot of boarding parties and off ship missions.
But instances for people from different ships would be hard to make within the lore. A few is possible, like having some open planets the federation owns that the players spend time on when on leave and similar things.
As I said, I think it is possible but it would be hard to make good. You could of course just have people log on to a random ship but that would take a way a lot of the interaction that is the main point of Star trek.
I don't think you need big expectations to be disappointed with STO. I never thought multi-player ships would be an option, STO as described could be fun, and sometimes is. It's just that even with removing all the expectations of the IP, STO is still only a passable game, and light years behind most AAA MMO's in almost every aspect.
All that said, I'm really not sure that Star Trek really fits in the MMO genre. Star Trek has always been about 10% Sci Fi, 10% mystery, and 80% drama. I think I've heard it called a "Space Opera" more than once. Would "All My Children" make a good MMO? Even if set in a space or fantasy environment?
Pick your favorite Star Trek episode, and try to envision it played out in an MMO. Does it work? Me, I can't imagine how you'd set up a mission where a players character gets zapped by a space probe that launches them into a lucid dream where they spend an entire lifetime as a villager on a doomed planet...
It can be done...Starquest online proves it.
It's basically Sandbox Star Trek MMO with things changed just enough to avoid lawsuit
Too bad it's done by handful of hobbyists so while ideas are great and features are good...the graphics are subpar at best and bugs are plenty and often go unnoticed for a year.
That's a pile of horse manure. It was Jack that called his products CO and STO, AAA MMO's. Hence his backpeddling and redefining Cryptic games as OMG's, which was laughable. You just "don't get it " .
Of course the Star Trek IP is suitable for an MMO. Its perfect! Just give it to Blizzard or Bioware and they would make an MMO worth it's legacy.
I'd play.
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The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
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Has all that...Its good if you can stand poor graphics and occasional bigger bug.
Yes, it's possible. It will not be accomplished by changing the skins of another game and space combat being only a slugfest for your space bar. This is Star Trek.
You need wide open space, not shoeboxes where you can see somehing neat looking in the distance, but some invisible wall inhibits your progress.
Diplomacy first, some to most of Star Trek involves not firing a shot, but making contact with new life, not killing 10 of an unknown species.
Exploration, moral choices, a viable alternative to the federation for those shoot 1st, ask questions later.
Crap-tic, where they did have some new ideas, didn't seem to be implemented very well, and they short changed on the development big time, but that's nothing new to the Star Trek franchise. More often than not, developers sell the product on name and name alone as opposed to quality.
Yes, it is possible to make a good ST MMO, but it's not probable. It's easer to make an average to below average game that will sell because of its name.
I think you could make it work (and I'd love to see it done) but you'd just have to narrow the focus. While the TV series were able to jump all over the place - war one week, mystery the next etc... - you have to have a underlaying track for a game. Think Classic Trek with their Klingon/Rom war, DS9 vs the Cardassians/Founders or even Voyger the trek home.
Now in my examples the standard MMO shooter plays big but has openings for Diplo, exploring (spying) and what not.
As far as the 'Who's the Captain'. Do like SWG did but updated with the whole pet thing Cryptic has. If only you log in, then it's you and your crew pets or if in a group you drop certain crew pets and fill them with players. Stick to the smaller ships and make the big one's guild ships.
It's workable, it's just that Cryptic made a mess of it. Never having played a Bioware game, but based on the TOR posts it sounds like they would have been a better choice with their multi-diologue quest choices.
SWG (pre-cu) - AoC (pre-f2p) - PotBS (pre-boarder) - DDO - LotRO (pre-f2p) - STO (pre-f2p) - GnH (beta tester) - SWTOR - Neverwinter
Exactly. It has everything a Star Trek MMO needs, player crew, planets, exploration and so on. If the graphics wasn't that awful and the UI wasn't a nightmare it would be a great game. I so wish someone made a game like that with a proper game engine.
Wow, I can't believe that this question is even being asked. Seriously? Star Trek not only would make a great MMO, but the fictional Star Trek universe is already set-up perfectly for it. Think about it. It already has everything you need. I have mentioned some of this before in another thread, but consider the following:
1. Multiple races you actually want to play - Unlike Star Wars Galaxies which has playable races you could care less about, Star Trek has Humans, Klingons, Vulcans, Andoreans, Cardassians, Ferengi, Bajorans, etc. Not only do you want to play these races (well, maybe not Bajorans), but each of these races already has massive lore in place behind each of them. Crypitc would not have even needed to write any lore. It is already written for them. Cyptic chose to ignore all of this.
2. Factions Galore - The Federation, Starfleet, The Vulcan Science Academy, The Klingon Empire, Maquee, Orion Trade Syndicate (not sure if that one is in the lore. I may have just made that one up). The list goes on, I just can't think of any more at the moment, but it is already in the lore. Cryptic chose to ignore all of this.
3. Exploration - Star Trek is set in our very own, albiet, fictional Milky Way galaxy. And guess what? Our galaxy is massive. So massive that even in Star Trek lore it is stated that humans have only explored a very, very tiny portion of it. The only game that even comes close to making you feel that you are in a massive vast emptiness is EVE Online. Star Trek Online's space should have been similiar to EVE Online's space. I could quite possibly play EVE Online for years and never visit even half of the solar systems in that game. Instead, Cryptic used what they already had and shoe-horned space into multiple tiny boxes with walls. WITH WALLS?!?! Wow, nothing breaks immersion more than flying through infinite space and smacking into a wall. I can explore all of STO's infinite space in about an hour or two.
4. Economy - I think with this one, people tend to focus too much on the fact that human's no longer use money. Please correct me if I am wrong, but if you pay attention to the lore, you will know that this is only the case between humans. This is not the case for other races and it is not the case for transactions between humans and other races. Trading is obviously a major sub-theme within Star Trek and the aquisition of wealth is everything to a Ferengi. This is where Cryptic failed with this. Instead of putting in a diverse economy based on trade, they created the "Energy Credit."
5. Home worlds - Each race obviously has its own home world within Star Trek. Each of these home worlds could have been a starting place for each of the playable races in the game. Each home world should have had its own quest lines. This is basic MMO stuff. Not sure how they messed this one up, but instead Cryptic just crammed everyone into the same space station that you could care less about.
6. Space PvP - The Neutral Zone. Enough said.
7. Ground PvP - The Gamesters of Triskelion. Enough said.
8. Crafting - Replicators. Enough said.
9. Diplomacy - Something along the lines of what Vanguard does. Maybe not a card-game exactly, but some types of negotiations between parties that would influence the world around the characters. Vanguard gives buffs to your character based on the results of the diplomacy. Sorry if my Vanguard knowledge is a bit off. I haven't played it since its launch. That is what it used to be, anyways.
10. The future is not written yet - There are endless possibilities. Cyptic took STO and placed it in the future farther ahead then the rest of the Star Trek lore, yet they do everything in their power to keep it in the past. Why are you able to fly ships that were decommisioned a century before? Why do they release costume packs for the 21st century? (Sorry if I am wrong on the century.) Why when I go to Deep Space Nine am I going to Quark's bar when he has probably been dead for 50 years?
The problem with STO is that Cryptic completely ignored all of what Star Trek is. They just cherry picked a couple of bits and pieces from it and tried to make it work with the existing tired mechanics they used in the past. I got the distinct impression when I played STO that when Crypic got the rights for Star Trek, the first and only resource they used for their Star Trek lore was the complete DVD box set of Star Trek: Voyager.
The moment I read "It's like" or "WoW" is the moment I stop reading your post.
Reskinning CO and saying it's a space game just doesn't cut it.
I was talking about this in my last couple of posts in the Fantastic Game thread in these STO forums. I firmly believe that what Bioware is doing for SW:TOR is how a Star Trek MMO should have been made. You have all the elements out there (either already out, or in development) to get as close to capturing the feel of Star trek in an MMO: Allowing multiple players to travel on the same ship (SW:TOR and SWG (SWG even let players multi-crew the bigger ships), a robust dialog tree that not only allows for different outcomes based on choices, but also allows multiple people to take part (SW:TOR), each class having unique content in addition to shared content (SW:TOR), etc. I find it a bit ironic that it is the SW MMOs which capture the feeling of Star Trek better than most of the Star trek games have.
"Oh my, how horrible, someone is criticizing a MMO. Oh yeah, that is what a forum is about, looking at both sides. You rather have to be critical of anything in this genre as of late because the track record of these major studios has just been appalling." -Ozmodan
Yes, I think I mentioned in my OP that I'd seen articles talking about the new Star Wars MMO adopting some of these non-linear progression mechanics.
I look forward to seeing how it works out. While I'm nowhere near the Star Wars nerd that I am of Star Trek, STO proves that IP can't conquer all and doesn't make up for a mediocre MMO.
Right now, the only thing I'm not too thrilled about with SW:TOR is that the space part of it is going to be 'on rails' (i.e. a tunnel shooter). While they didn't have to go the Jump to Lightspeed route, allowing the ships full 3D movement would have been nice. Unfortunately, Bioware has their own version of Jack Emmert in the form of Gordan Walton (BioWare Austin’s VP/Co-Studio Director (and former SOE exec)).
Mr. Gordon believes that RPG gamers have problem with full 3D movement, and Cryptic stated as much when informing everyone that STO wouldn't have full 3D movement. Apparently the alpha testers couldn't handle it during JtL's development, again just what Cryptic claimed. I have trouble believing that; I mean really, they couldn't find anyone to alpha test who hadn't played any of the Wing Commander games (or Freespace, or any of the many other full 3D movement space games)? Frankly, I find statements along those lines ludicrous at best.
Of course Mr Gordon went a step further, and actually believes that JtL was the reason SWG started losing players shortly after JtL's launch. That's just silly; both reviewers and players were greatly praising it. I think it had more to do with the fact that WoW launched less than a month after JtL did, and started out of the gate as the proverbial 800 lbs. gorilla . SWG lost its players because of that, not because we're supposedly unable to handle 3D movement. Hence SOE made the colossal blunder of the NGE.
"Oh my, how horrible, someone is criticizing a MMO. Oh yeah, that is what a forum is about, looking at both sides. You rather have to be critical of anything in this genre as of late because the track record of these major studios has just been appalling." -Ozmodan