You pay your $15 and you play the game. Period. That's just one of the myriad reasons I do, and always will, prefer P2P to F2P and/or Cash Shop models.
You are right though.. the Cash Shop model is entirely intended to milk customers for all they can. They also prey on impulse buyers who don't stop to think how much they're spending on their "free" MMO over time. Irresponsible spenders, you could say.
What amazes me is there are many VIPs (subscribers) on the official boards who spend money on Turbine Points too. They are paying twice to play the game, and quite happy to do so. It's no wonder their profits tripled, but to me it's mind-boggling.
All I know is the game is still freaking packed with players. If turbine says they are doing good then I believe em. Lotro is a quality game in a genre filled with crap.
That's really smart, really. I guess you also believed Turbine when they said "Asheron's Call 2 is gonna stay for long" about 3 months before its termination. Want me to find you a link to that interview? I admire your fanatical devotion to Turbine.
What an asinine "argument." You state that this game has a sub option, which makes your argument invalid in this case, yet go on with a wall of text about how evil the f2p is on this game. Next you'll go on about how great it is that developers can provide MMOs sub free by releasing a bad game.
Almost up there with the guy that said they are making more money, so what, how's the retention? Sounds like a guy who would refuse a raise because he would have to pay more taxes. Genius.
Originally posted by erictlewis
*snip*
I have a lifetime sub, but I am slowly watching that wash away. The reason is simple, they keep making it more and more easy for the free to play guy obtain the same content.
*snip*
*queues profound music*
Guy above complains about evils of f2p in this game. Guy below complains about how they make it easier for the f2p guy to play free.
Well, it helps that Lotro is actually a good mmorpg. The Lotro tiered pay as you go model would fail with lesser games like WAR and AoC.
There is also another angle to a good game like LOTRO (yes, I do think it is a good game) becoming an f2p/micropayment game. The occasional gamer (like me) who does not mind to pay for content, but who has enough RL commitments that sometimes spends a month or more without gaming (yes, there are some of us who in RL have to -argh!- stop gaming for long periods of time because of work). For us, the current LOTRO model makes more sense. Our accounts remain active even if we don't pay (nor play) for a couple of months and, when we do have time to play, we can purchase the gadgets, adventure packs, etc. we want without remorse, because it is the 10-30 dollars we did not pay for a subscription we did not use. True, we most probably are a minority, and not a very vocal one but, to us, it just makes more sense... in this game or any other.
So they made more money than they would via a sub. That is actually pretty scary as that means there is a portion of the players in an MMORPG that are spending above and beyond and their over the top spending supports all the others who do not spend anything. That is an eye opener but I guess this means the rest of us can rejoice and sponge off these poor idiots.I am quite happy to do so.
I will be honest here okay I never thought about this issue in fact I do not care whether I pay a sub or not as long as the game is fun. I just feel a bit bad for the people who just buy and buy but you are right if you say that those people deserve what happens to them because of their own lack of control. I think this business of relying on people without self control and it is model that makes them more money is distasteful but it is business. I feel indecent living off them but I think I am a minority.
I love guildwars and I have playing it for about two months now and that is a quality game. I enjoy it but that model is b2p and perhaps in some ways LotRO is not like a traditional f2p but I feel the future will change and more games will use this profitable method and it will be focussed on how to milk these type of people. If you think otherwise that is naive anything that makes this type of money will be exploited to the hilt. What will happen is that more of these types of games will come out but don't kid yourself that this will improve the f2p servings.
Well this theory is like assuming that ppv tv service is going to kill the rest of the premium tv service industry, yes one day just about every game on the market will probably offer some type of fluff to get that extra income but I don't think we need to worry about the quality of service offered by the companies. there are still lot's of us out there who won't pay out the nose for these games and that will always be a deterent to keep them somewhat honest.
And if not I'm still willing to give them the chance to prove me wrong just like I did with the cable tv industry when they started ppv.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
All I know is the game is still freaking packed with players. If turbine says they are doing good then I believe em. Lotro is a quality game in a genre filled with crap.
That's really smart, really. I guess you also believed Turbine when they said "Asheron's Call 2 is gonna stay for long" about 3 months before its termination. Want me to find you a link to that interview? I admire your fanatical devotion to Turbine.
It's not fanatical devotion. I've seen the increase of players with my own eyes. I have a Max level and a couple mid level characters and all are surrounded by many other players. That's why I believe them.
You are right though.. the Cash Shop model is entirely intended to milk customers for all they can.
..or offer extras that the customers want and are willing to pay for. Your statement quoted above and the countless others like it are flawed in that MMOs are not a necessity or utility - they are entertainment. People spend their entertainment dollars on what they feel will entertain them. They also will not pay more for their entertainment than what they feel itis worth.
I wholly expect a response about how MMOs are addictive and EvilDevCorp is preying on that, but at that point one is either using the exception as the rule or stating that MMO gamers are simply a very weak-willed lot with no self control. The former invalidates it and the latter is a rather interesting claim to make about one's fellow gamers. Many of the posters here that vehemently voice their dislike for item malls either don't think their argument through or don't realize the backhanded comments they regularly throw around about their fellow gamers.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
One thing for sure there is more folks playing the game, but what is the player retention rate.
This question has been a big red flag for me for a while now, especially with how often it's used to promote F2P and, especially demonstrate how "successful' a F2P MMO is.
In many cases, you'll see PR touting an increase in player accounts as a result of being F2P.
The obvious problem with that is it's not necessarily an accurate representation of how many are actively playing the game. Only of how many accounts have been created. Since a F2P account is, technically, always active.. it can technically always be counted as an "active account"... even if not all of them are actually being played.
I've not personally ever seen a developer come out and say "We have X amount of active accounts, of which Y are currently active and playing, and Z are spending money in the cash shop. If any developer has ever given any such breakdown of their account numbers, I've not seen it yet.
I made a F2P DDO account a couple months back, played it a bit, found it still didn't appeal to me and stopped. I would bet my account is included in their numbers of how many they have in DDO. Similarly, other F2P MMO devs would do the same thing.
So, I agree with you, eric. A dev releasing statements about increase in players/accounts/what-have-you in a F2P MMO where every account is pretty much always active, but without giving a more meaningful breakdown to put those numbers in context, is pretty much meaningless to me.
Of course, I don't expect them to release any such break-down. It looks much better to say something like - just off the top of my head - "We have over 1 million player accounts!", than it does to say "We have over 1 million player accounts, of which 500,000 are considered actively playing for at least 4 consecutve weeks, and of which 100,000 are actively using the cash shop". It would be telling, though, of the fact that 100,000 are pretty much paying for the other 400,000 as well.
Eh... no matter what angle I think of it from, the whole F2P/Cash Shop thing to me is just shady as hell, on several different levels.
While I can sympathize with those of us out here who are little bit too intelligent to be taken in by the tricky speak of business folks my thoughts on this is that release of information like this is about advertising nothing more and nothing less, so while yeah it would be nice if they told the full story I don't plan on holding them to a higher standard than I do say the food industry who often "touch up" the food you see on a commercial to the point that if you tried to eat that particular burger you would probably get sick as it is made of foam and covered in vaseline.
In LOTRO favor though how many of newly created accounts is active may not be released info but as a player who logs in atleast every other day I can say it is still more populated now than it was the month before free to play.
Kudos to Lokti for the post above mine too very good points made......
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
All I know is the game is still freaking packed with players. If turbine says they are doing good then I believe em. Lotro is a quality game in a genre filled with crap.
That's really smart, really. I guess you also believed Turbine when they said "Asheron's Call 2 is gonna stay for long" about 3 months before its termination. Want me to find you a link to that interview? I admire your fanatical devotion to Turbine.
It's not fanatical devotion. I've seen the increase of players with my own eyes. I have a Max level and a couple mid level characters and all are surrounded by many other players. That's why I believe them.
While I too remain unimpressed with this announcement without a corresponding release of sub number comparisons during the same time period Rock is one off the few people I'd take at their word on this subject. If he says its croweded on his server, its crowded.
But I knew this model was going to work well for LoTRO, and I disagree with Rock on one point, I think AOC could travel this road and also benefit as well. (No hope for WAR, that game is just a pile)
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Free to Play is great if you're content with what they give you to play for free. If you aren't content with what they give you then you are better off finding a game that you're willing to pay a flat $15 subscription fee.
I mean in a year you spend $180 on a subscription plus the price of the boxed game which is between $40 and $60. So, $240 for the first year isn't that bad, especially if you really enjoy the game you invested in.
The sneaky thing about Free to Play is that they try to give you tons of reasons to not be content with what you get for free. Then they nickel and dime you for as much as they possibly can. Someone not paying attention can end up spending a lot more than $15 a month.
Pretty much Free to Play is a big cash grab. What Free to Play does is it allows the company to reach players that normally couldn't or wouldn't pay a $15 subscription. This allows them to get more money from people with a high disposable income and more from those with a lower disposable income.
Say all the players that were paying a subscription for LOTRO kept playing and get a VIP account. Just for the sake of the example, lets say that's the standard $15 a month. Turbine then gets as many people as they normally would paying the subscription, but now they also get players that are spending anywhere from, lets say $3 is the minmum, up to just below the maxium of the $15 subscription. So now they have players that couldn't or wouldn't pay the $15 playing and paying whatever they can to the company. So they end up actually making more money then they would have just charging $15 flat to everyone.
Not to mention those that not only pay the $15 a month and then go crazy spending tons of extra money in the cash shop meaning they end up spending a lot more than $15 every month.
Free to play give players very little advantage and is more of a cash grab for the MMO company than anything else.
The only way Free to play turns out to be a good thing for the customer is if they are willing to be content with what they get for free.
The terms "revenue" and "free to play" just do not belong as supporting terms. If you have revenue then your game is not free to play. If the players are spending money, they are not playing for free. While maybe it is just a problem with labeling, it certainly is in some ways dishonest to attempt to continue to use those terms together.
LOTRO has always done well. LOTRO has also had a lot of ups and downs with the player base.
Once the players went through all the content the playerbase would shrink. Memory jog: do you remember before moria? When there was nothing really substantial added to the game? Game didn't have a huge amount of people. Heck, I cancelled my sub because I was done with what I really felt I wanted to do.
Moria comes out, huge amount of players.
this happens to all of these games.
so before the free to play there really wasn't a huge amount of content added. A small bit with mirkwood. Players came, areas were packed and after a while the players fell off.
Had Turbine stuck with doing regular expansions this would have continued.
Did subs increase three fold in comparison to one of the downturn populatons or the robust populations? We don't actually know but I suspect that it was from the lull they had.
Which of course makes sense.
They went free to play becaus they saw the huge success that DDO had. They weren't doing badly at all and have a devoted fanbase. As they should becuase they are actually more active on their forums over some other game companies.
As far as the statement about whether subscribers feel that they are getting the shaft because free to play players are getting more and more, my answer is "no I don't".
I'm glad they get the main story all the way through. It's incentive to keep them playing through to the upper levels and I don't begrudge them that. Also means they can be there for groups for people who want to do more of the group content.
And of course I get my access to the game and my small allotment of points per month.
I'd rather have a game alive with players than bereft of all life.
Is this good for the game? Depends on which seat you are sitting in. I think it's great because more money means more can be invested in the game if they choose to. The bad is that there is a bit of a cheap feeling to it all as there are always little reminders that you now have "ten more points" and can open the store if you choose.
I suppose we'll just see how the next expansion goes as well as the road up to it.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
One thing for sure there is more folks playing the game, but what is the player retention rate.
This question has been a big red flag for me for a while now, especially with how often it's used to promote F2P and, especially demonstrate how "successful' a F2P MMO is.
In many cases, you'll see PR touting an increase in player accounts as a result of being F2P.
The obvious problem with that is it's not necessarily an accurate representation of how many are actively playing the game. Only of how many accounts have been created. Since a F2P account is, technically, always active.. it can technically always be counted as an "active account"... even if not all of them are actually being played.
I've not personally ever seen a developer come out and say "We have X amount of active accounts, of which Y are currently active and playing, and Z are spending money in the cash shop. If any developer has ever given any such breakdown of their account numbers, I've not seen it yet.
I made a F2P DDO account a couple months back, played it a bit, found it still didn't appeal to me and stopped. I would bet my account is included in their numbers of how many they have in DDO. Similarly, other F2P MMO devs would do the same thing.
So, I agree with you, eric. A dev releasing statements about increase in players/accounts/what-have-you in a F2P MMO where every account is pretty much always active, but without giving a more meaningful breakdown to put those numbers in context, is pretty much meaningless to me.
Of course, I don't expect them to release any such break-down. It looks much better to say something like - just off the top of my head - "We have over 1 million player accounts!", than it does to say "We have over 1 million player accounts, of which 500,000 are considered actively playing for at least 4 consecutve weeks, and of which 100,000 are actively using the cash shop". It would be telling, though, of the fact that 100,000 are pretty much paying for the other 400,000 as well.
Eh... no matter what angle I think of it from, the whole F2P/Cash Shop thing to me is just shady as hell, on several different levels.
With the exception of WoW throwing around account numbers, I don't know of many that do. And honestly for a F2p game account numbers don't mean a thing it's the revenue that's important.
Does it truely matter if 100,000 players each kick in $1.00 or if 1 player kicks in $100,000.00? Either way the $ figure is the same in the end.
As far as retention goes; while numbers do look to be down from the high of opening weekend, there's still plenty of players out and about. Turbine added servers for the opening weekend and it's a good thing they did then and now as they are still needed. The O-boards still have complaints of lag and player saturation on it. My server went from a Med-low to a Med-high and is probably back at Med-Med right now. The main town is crowded and just standing in one spot last night in between skirmishes had me seeing players going to and fro and I was out in the boonies.
F2P was a great change to me, and while I don't really play anymore for nearly a year, its nice on occassion to be able to just pop in and chat with the community and run around from time to time without having to sign up for a sub. I know every nook from my previous time playing so its hard to get lost and explore, but helping other players through GLFF and just along the road is fun to do.
LOTRO has always done well. LOTRO has also had a lot of ups and downs with the player base.
Once the players went through all the content the playerbase would shrink. Memory jog: do you remember before moria? When there was nothing really substantial added to the game? Game didn't have a huge amount of people. Heck, I cancelled my sub because I was done with what I really felt I wanted to do.
Moria comes out, huge amount of players.
this happens to all of these games.
so before the free to play there really wasn't a huge amount of content added. A small bit with mirkwood. Players came, areas were packed and after a while the players fell off.
Had Turbine stuck with doing regular expansions this would have continued.
Did subs increase three fold in comparison to one of the downturn populatons or the robust populations? We don't actually know but I suspect that it was from the lull they had.
Which of course makes sense.
They went free to play becaus they saw the huge success that DDO had. They weren't doing badly at all and have a devoted fanbase. As they should becuase they are actually more active on their forums over some other game companies.
As far as the statement about whether subscribers feel that they are getting the shaft because free to play players are getting more and more, my answer is "no I don't".
I'm glad they get the main story all the way through. It's incentive to keep them playing through to the upper levels and I don't begrudge them that. Also means they can be there for groups for people who want to do more of the group content.
And of course I get my access to the game and my small allotment of points per month.
I'd rather have a game alive with players than bereft of all life.
Is this good for the game? Depends on which seat you are sitting in. I think it's great because more money means more can be invested in the game if they choose to. The bad is that there is a bit of a cheap feeling to it all as there are always little reminders that you now have "ten more points" and can open the store if you choose.
I suppose we'll just see how the next expansion goes as well as the road up to it.
Well, I don't exactly see it how you do.
DDO went F2P becouse it was a massive failure, and it was a desperate try to save it from its demise. Which worked. Lotro, however, stayed P2P.
But, eventually, the playerbase size shrinked to concerning levels, so concerning that they decided to take the same route that saved DDO. That was due to veteran players leaving in hordes due to an extremelly thin end game and due to a laughable expansion in terms of size and depth, plus to the grind they that introduced into the game to make up for such alarming lack of content.
Let me remind you that the game spent over a year with only one 6-man dungeon doable in less than 30 minutes by a decent group and 1 raid with only 3 bosses at level cap. The lack of content was so alarming that they even had to rescale old content to make up for it.
As raid leader in the most populated euro server (and let me remind you also that raiding was more active in Europe, Euro players got the last world first kills even with the expansion beeing released before in the USA), I was in contact with many other raid leaders and guild leaders and, besides the few strongest guilds, everybody was struggling to get the numbers to fill 12 slots for a raid.
Sorry, but the game was failing, and it was failing big time. So, now it's got tons of new players? Excellent, good news for the few friends that are still playing it. Now let's see if Turbine actually translates that into content. If it does not happen, this state of lotro-euphoria won't last too long. The F2P change is hardly a few months old. The old problems that made all the veterans leave, if not fixed, will make all the present new players leave too, and this time sooner than before. And these problems have not been fixed yet.
Well, it helps that Lotro is actually a good mmorpg. The Lotro tiered pay as you go model would fail with lesser games like WAR and AoC.
EXACTLY!
I have 3 subs to it that would have NEVER EVER happened had the game stayed P2P. Not only myself, but I've had about 30 other people sign up in my guild/kin. Ive dropped extra money on the expansions (x3) and the goat. I still feel like I've gotten a deal.
This is good news. Regardless of the numbers the point is the new business model is working and viable. Now Turbine just needs to get on a regular content update schedule to keep everyone playing. The system is not perfect but I do think it's a step in the right direction. They've got the basic idea down to hopefully keep a healthy population.... free entry to middle earth and then multiple payment options for those that choose to stick around based on what type of gamer you are. To be honest, this is all pretty basic stuff and other devs could stand to follow this model instead of always feeling the need of handcuffing their players to a subscription. If the game is good, people will pay. Let people pay and play how they see fit instead forcing a one size fits all on your gamers.
What an asinine "argument." You state that this game has a sub option, which makes your argument invalid in this case, yet go on with a wall of text about how evil the f2p is on this game. Next you'll go on about how great it is that developers can provide MMOs sub free by releasing a bad game.
I'm arguing that I, personally, don't like the F2P/cash shop setup at all, in any context, becuase I understand the reason some developers prefer it to subscription; and it's not becuase they feel they should let people play their game for free. It's because they understand a certain aspect of human psychology and how they can exploit it to better line their pockets.
I acknowledge that at least DDO and LoTRO offer a subscription so that, should I decide to play either game, I don't have to worry about the annoyances I feel F2P/Cash Shops introduce.
As for your last statement... or "prediction"... um no... I would never justify a poor game being released as being "great", for any reason. For future reference, stick to what you know and what people actually say, mkay? Just a suggestion.
Almost up there with the guy that said they are making more money, so what, how's the retention? Sounds like a guy who would refuse a raise because he would have to pay more taxes. Genius.
I'll let them speak for themself if they wish, but it seems to me that you're completely missing the point of their remarks.... which you have not accurately represented in your statement, by the way. Regardless, I understand exactly what they're getting at. Perhaps you don't, but not understanding something doesn't make it invalid.
Originally posted by erictlewis
*snip*
I have a lifetime sub, but I am slowly watching that wash away. The reason is simple, they keep making it more and more easy for the free to play guy obtain the same content.
*snip*
*queues profound music*
Guy above complains about evils of f2p in this game. Guy below complains about how they make it easier for the f2p guy to play free.
I never described it as "evils of f2p". I expressed reasons of issues I personally have with it, and why I personally don't like the f2p setup. My personal point-of-view. Nothing more. Capisce? Comprende? Understand? Dig it?
Again, if you can't respond honestly and insist on putting words in my mouth, or twisting around what I say, I'd prefer if you simply didn't respond to my posts, okay?
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
This is a very good news. Hopefully more publishers will start pushing more pricing options. Anything to help against this Western MMO market that is very close to a natural monopoly.
But I knew this model was going to work well for LoTRO, and I disagree with Rock on one point, I think AOC could travel this road and also benefit as well. (No hope for WAR, that game is just a pile)
Have to admit I didn't. Much as I love tha game I awsn't real sure this was going to work since the game format is so different compared to DDO.
Glad I was wrong. I do think this would work well for AoC as well.
Only a matter of time before some different pay model is implemented in both of the aforementioned games anyways.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
I am not surprised. Last night in the Bree vault there was a helluva traffic jam. Methinks they need to add a few more vault keepers to the payroll. Been leveling the metalsmith trade and farming all areas for ore, I have seen quite a increase of populaton in just about every level of area.
I broke down and bought some Turbine points last week,. Being a snazzy dresser I wanted some more space in my cosmetic clothes wardrobe and a couple of packs of craft experiance acceleration buffs. Considering I have been a lifer since launch and this is the first I have spent since Mirkwood, it is not a bad deal. But I can see where Turbine will get 5 or 10 bucks or so a month from me now, which is stil less than I spend on my EVE subscription.
I compare the Turbine Store vs a F2P account like it's a car, a basic entry level car can get you where you want to go. But I can afford one with air conditioning and leather seats so why not get there in comfort and style. In Lotro you can get to 65 without spending a dime, it is your choice on whether you spend anything at all and up to you how much you spend if you decide to go that route.
for those with no self control or discipline, they will be maxxing their credit cards out buying 5 dollar cups of coffee at Starbucks anyway so what the heck.
I miss DAoC
OmaliMMO Business CorrespondentMemberUncommonPosts: 1,177
But I knew this model was going to work well for LoTRO, and I disagree with Rock on one point, I think AOC could travel this road and also benefit as well.
Have to admit I didn't. Much as I love tha game I awsn't real sure this was going to work since the game format is so different compared to DDO.
Glad I was wrong. I do think this would work well for AoC as well.
I think one of the reasons this model has worked well for both DDO and LotRO is you could break both games up into smaller chunks very easily; Dungeons strung together and you have DDO adventure packs, different zones individually wrapped and you have LotRO.
Can't do that with AoC really. I had a Stygian when I was sub'ing. Tortage took him to lvl 24 free, then I had 3 more Stygian zones, one of which was a resource zone which for quest purposes was fairly worthless, another a Pvp zone which wasn't my thing so I'm down to just one zone now. OK I'll buy that zone, but then what? I didn't want to play in either Cim or Ag space.
Now some will but others won't and with such a limited selection of zones where would the money come from? AoC would have to go totally open + buy the X-pac and try to make it's money from a 100% cash shop and I don't think players would really like that.
Comments
What amazes me is there are many VIPs (subscribers) on the official boards who spend money on Turbine Points too. They are paying twice to play the game, and quite happy to do so. It's no wonder their profits tripled, but to me it's mind-boggling.
That's really smart, really. I guess you also believed Turbine when they said "Asheron's Call 2 is gonna stay for long" about 3 months before its termination. Want me to find you a link to that interview? I admire your fanatical devotion to Turbine.
REALITY CHECK
What an asinine "argument." You state that this game has a sub option, which makes your argument invalid in this case, yet go on with a wall of text about how evil the f2p is on this game. Next you'll go on about how great it is that developers can provide MMOs sub free by releasing a bad game.
Almost up there with the guy that said they are making more money, so what, how's the retention? Sounds like a guy who would refuse a raise because he would have to pay more taxes. Genius.
*queues profound music*
Guy above complains about evils of f2p in this game. Guy below complains about how they make it easier for the f2p guy to play free.
*beam comes down and lifts me to heaven*
There is also another angle to a good game like LOTRO (yes, I do think it is a good game) becoming an f2p/micropayment game. The occasional gamer (like me) who does not mind to pay for content, but who has enough RL commitments that sometimes spends a month or more without gaming (yes, there are some of us who in RL have to -argh!- stop gaming for long periods of time because of work). For us, the current LOTRO model makes more sense. Our accounts remain active even if we don't pay (nor play) for a couple of months and, when we do have time to play, we can purchase the gadgets, adventure packs, etc. we want without remorse, because it is the 10-30 dollars we did not pay for a subscription we did not use. True, we most probably are a minority, and not a very vocal one but, to us, it just makes more sense... in this game or any other.
Well this theory is like assuming that ppv tv service is going to kill the rest of the premium tv service industry, yes one day just about every game on the market will probably offer some type of fluff to get that extra income but I don't think we need to worry about the quality of service offered by the companies. there are still lot's of us out there who won't pay out the nose for these games and that will always be a deterent to keep them somewhat honest.
And if not I'm still willing to give them the chance to prove me wrong just like I did with the cable tv industry when they started ppv.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
That's really smart, really. I guess you also believed Turbine when they said "Asheron's Call 2 is gonna stay for long" about 3 months before its termination. Want me to find you a link to that interview? I admire your fanatical devotion to Turbine.
It's not fanatical devotion. I've seen the increase of players with my own eyes. I have a Max level and a couple mid level characters and all are surrounded by many other players. That's why I believe them.Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
..or offer extras that the customers want and are willing to pay for. Your statement quoted above and the countless others like it are flawed in that MMOs are not a necessity or utility - they are entertainment. People spend their entertainment dollars on what they feel will entertain them. They also will not pay more for their entertainment than what they feel itis worth.
I wholly expect a response about how MMOs are addictive and EvilDevCorp is preying on that, but at that point one is either using the exception as the rule or stating that MMO gamers are simply a very weak-willed lot with no self control. The former invalidates it and the latter is a rather interesting claim to make about one's fellow gamers. Many of the posters here that vehemently voice their dislike for item malls either don't think their argument through or don't realize the backhanded comments they regularly throw around about their fellow gamers.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
While I can sympathize with those of us out here who are little bit too intelligent to be taken in by the tricky speak of business folks my thoughts on this is that release of information like this is about advertising nothing more and nothing less, so while yeah it would be nice if they told the full story I don't plan on holding them to a higher standard than I do say the food industry who often "touch up" the food you see on a commercial to the point that if you tried to eat that particular burger you would probably get sick as it is made of foam and covered in vaseline.
In LOTRO favor though how many of newly created accounts is active may not be released info but as a player who logs in atleast every other day I can say it is still more populated now than it was the month before free to play.
Kudos to Lokti for the post above mine too very good points made......
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
While I too remain unimpressed with this announcement without a corresponding release of sub number comparisons during the same time period Rock is one off the few people I'd take at their word on this subject. If he says its croweded on his server, its crowded.
But I knew this model was going to work well for LoTRO, and I disagree with Rock on one point, I think AOC could travel this road and also benefit as well. (No hope for WAR, that game is just a pile)
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Free to Play is great if you're content with what they give you to play for free. If you aren't content with what they give you then you are better off finding a game that you're willing to pay a flat $15 subscription fee.
I mean in a year you spend $180 on a subscription plus the price of the boxed game which is between $40 and $60. So, $240 for the first year isn't that bad, especially if you really enjoy the game you invested in.
The sneaky thing about Free to Play is that they try to give you tons of reasons to not be content with what you get for free. Then they nickel and dime you for as much as they possibly can. Someone not paying attention can end up spending a lot more than $15 a month.
Pretty much Free to Play is a big cash grab. What Free to Play does is it allows the company to reach players that normally couldn't or wouldn't pay a $15 subscription. This allows them to get more money from people with a high disposable income and more from those with a lower disposable income.
Say all the players that were paying a subscription for LOTRO kept playing and get a VIP account. Just for the sake of the example, lets say that's the standard $15 a month. Turbine then gets as many people as they normally would paying the subscription, but now they also get players that are spending anywhere from, lets say $3 is the minmum, up to just below the maxium of the $15 subscription. So now they have players that couldn't or wouldn't pay the $15 playing and paying whatever they can to the company. So they end up actually making more money then they would have just charging $15 flat to everyone.
Not to mention those that not only pay the $15 a month and then go crazy spending tons of extra money in the cash shop meaning they end up spending a lot more than $15 every month.
Free to play give players very little advantage and is more of a cash grab for the MMO company than anything else.
The only way Free to play turns out to be a good thing for the customer is if they are willing to be content with what they get for free.
The terms "revenue" and "free to play" just do not belong as supporting terms. If you have revenue then your game is not free to play. If the players are spending money, they are not playing for free. While maybe it is just a problem with labeling, it certainly is in some ways dishonest to attempt to continue to use those terms together.
Let's party like it is 1863!
I think some people have very short memories.
LOTRO has always done well. LOTRO has also had a lot of ups and downs with the player base.
Once the players went through all the content the playerbase would shrink. Memory jog: do you remember before moria? When there was nothing really substantial added to the game? Game didn't have a huge amount of people. Heck, I cancelled my sub because I was done with what I really felt I wanted to do.
Moria comes out, huge amount of players.
this happens to all of these games.
so before the free to play there really wasn't a huge amount of content added. A small bit with mirkwood. Players came, areas were packed and after a while the players fell off.
Had Turbine stuck with doing regular expansions this would have continued.
Did subs increase three fold in comparison to one of the downturn populatons or the robust populations? We don't actually know but I suspect that it was from the lull they had.
Which of course makes sense.
They went free to play becaus they saw the huge success that DDO had. They weren't doing badly at all and have a devoted fanbase. As they should becuase they are actually more active on their forums over some other game companies.
As far as the statement about whether subscribers feel that they are getting the shaft because free to play players are getting more and more, my answer is "no I don't".
I'm glad they get the main story all the way through. It's incentive to keep them playing through to the upper levels and I don't begrudge them that. Also means they can be there for groups for people who want to do more of the group content.
And of course I get my access to the game and my small allotment of points per month.
I'd rather have a game alive with players than bereft of all life.
Is this good for the game? Depends on which seat you are sitting in. I think it's great because more money means more can be invested in the game if they choose to. The bad is that there is a bit of a cheap feeling to it all as there are always little reminders that you now have "ten more points" and can open the store if you choose.
I suppose we'll just see how the next expansion goes as well as the road up to it.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
With the exception of WoW throwing around account numbers, I don't know of many that do. And honestly for a F2p game account numbers don't mean a thing it's the revenue that's important.
Does it truely matter if 100,000 players each kick in $1.00 or if 1 player kicks in $100,000.00? Either way the $ figure is the same in the end.
As far as retention goes; while numbers do look to be down from the high of opening weekend, there's still plenty of players out and about. Turbine added servers for the opening weekend and it's a good thing they did then and now as they are still needed. The O-boards still have complaints of lag and player saturation on it. My server went from a Med-low to a Med-high and is probably back at Med-Med right now. The main town is crowded and just standing in one spot last night in between skirmishes had me seeing players going to and fro and I was out in the boonies.
SWG (pre-cu) - AoC (pre-f2p) - PotBS (pre-boarder) - DDO - LotRO (pre-f2p) - STO (pre-f2p) - GnH (beta tester) - SWTOR - Neverwinter
F2P was a great change to me, and while I don't really play anymore for nearly a year, its nice on occassion to be able to just pop in and chat with the community and run around from time to time without having to sign up for a sub. I know every nook from my previous time playing so its hard to get lost and explore, but helping other players through GLFF and just along the road is fun to do.
Its all about community in MMOs.
ugh, I'm listening to that podcast now.
Seems a bit manic. And one guy sounds a bit like a Modern day Ed Wynn.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Well, I don't exactly see it how you do.
DDO went F2P becouse it was a massive failure, and it was a desperate try to save it from its demise. Which worked. Lotro, however, stayed P2P.
But, eventually, the playerbase size shrinked to concerning levels, so concerning that they decided to take the same route that saved DDO. That was due to veteran players leaving in hordes due to an extremelly thin end game and due to a laughable expansion in terms of size and depth, plus to the grind they that introduced into the game to make up for such alarming lack of content.
Let me remind you that the game spent over a year with only one 6-man dungeon doable in less than 30 minutes by a decent group and 1 raid with only 3 bosses at level cap. The lack of content was so alarming that they even had to rescale old content to make up for it.
As raid leader in the most populated euro server (and let me remind you also that raiding was more active in Europe, Euro players got the last world first kills even with the expansion beeing released before in the USA), I was in contact with many other raid leaders and guild leaders and, besides the few strongest guilds, everybody was struggling to get the numbers to fill 12 slots for a raid.
Sorry, but the game was failing, and it was failing big time. So, now it's got tons of new players? Excellent, good news for the few friends that are still playing it. Now let's see if Turbine actually translates that into content. If it does not happen, this state of lotro-euphoria won't last too long. The F2P change is hardly a few months old. The old problems that made all the veterans leave, if not fixed, will make all the present new players leave too, and this time sooner than before. And these problems have not been fixed yet.
EXACTLY!
I have 3 subs to it that would have NEVER EVER happened had the game stayed P2P. Not only myself, but I've had about 30 other people sign up in my guild/kin. Ive dropped extra money on the expansions (x3) and the goat. I still feel like I've gotten a deal.
This is good news. Regardless of the numbers the point is the new business model is working and viable. Now Turbine just needs to get on a regular content update schedule to keep everyone playing. The system is not perfect but I do think it's a step in the right direction. They've got the basic idea down to hopefully keep a healthy population.... free entry to middle earth and then multiple payment options for those that choose to stick around based on what type of gamer you are. To be honest, this is all pretty basic stuff and other devs could stand to follow this model instead of always feeling the need of handcuffing their players to a subscription. If the game is good, people will pay. Let people pay and play how they see fit instead forcing a one size fits all on your gamers.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
This is a very good news. Hopefully more publishers will start pushing more pricing options. Anything to help against this Western MMO market that is very close to a natural monopoly.
Have to admit I didn't. Much as I love tha game I awsn't real sure this was going to work since the game format is so different compared to DDO.
Glad I was wrong. I do think this would work well for AoC as well.
Only a matter of time before some different pay model is implemented in both of the aforementioned games anyways.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
I am not surprised. Last night in the Bree vault there was a helluva traffic jam. Methinks they need to add a few more vault keepers to the payroll. Been leveling the metalsmith trade and farming all areas for ore, I have seen quite a increase of populaton in just about every level of area.
I broke down and bought some Turbine points last week,. Being a snazzy dresser I wanted some more space in my cosmetic clothes wardrobe
and a couple of packs of craft experiance acceleration buffs. Considering I have been a lifer since launch and this is the first I have spent since Mirkwood, it is not a bad deal. But I can see where Turbine will get 5 or 10 bucks or so a month from me now, which is stil less than I spend on my EVE subscription.
I compare the Turbine Store vs a F2P account like it's a car, a basic entry level car can get you where you want to go. But I can afford one with air conditioning and leather seats so why not get there in comfort and style. In Lotro you can get to 65 without spending a dime, it is your choice on whether you spend anything at all and up to you how much you spend if you decide to go that route.
for those with no self control or discipline, they will be maxxing their credit cards out buying 5 dollar cups of coffee at Starbucks anyway so what the heck.
I miss DAoC
That only took a few posts to answer the OP's question on how haters would spin it into a bad thing.
I'll remind Sulthar that LOTRO, before going f2p, was still a more successful product than the majority of western MMOs on the market.
I think popular opinion is LoTRO had about 200 to 250k subs prior to f2p.
Let's be conservative and say it was 150k.
Let's multiply that by 15 bucks a month = 2,250,000$ gross profit per month.
Now let's multiply that for the year = 27, 000, 000$.
now multiply that by 3 to get their gross after the change = 81,000,0000.
81 million dollars gross is a lot of money.
I think one of the reasons this model has worked well for both DDO and LotRO is you could break both games up into smaller chunks very easily; Dungeons strung together and you have DDO adventure packs, different zones individually wrapped and you have LotRO.
Can't do that with AoC really. I had a Stygian when I was sub'ing. Tortage took him to lvl 24 free, then I had 3 more Stygian zones, one of which was a resource zone which for quest purposes was fairly worthless, another a Pvp zone which wasn't my thing so I'm down to just one zone now. OK I'll buy that zone, but then what? I didn't want to play in either Cim or Ag space.
Now some will but others won't and with such a limited selection of zones where would the money come from? AoC would have to go totally open + buy the X-pac and try to make it's money from a 100% cash shop and I don't think players would really like that.
SWG (pre-cu) - AoC (pre-f2p) - PotBS (pre-boarder) - DDO - LotRO (pre-f2p) - STO (pre-f2p) - GnH (beta tester) - SWTOR - Neverwinter