I think making good PvP or PvE is really involving and requires a large dedication. Not only that but they often conflict wth each other.
Good PvP is more than the ability to fight and harvest resources from other players. You need a precise balance of character types to not only work together but against each other. PvP combat is different than PvE which is usually balanced as a few players verses many AI and environmental hazzards whereas PvP needs more one on one balance. Not only that but PvP requires different map design and battle modes.
Thematically they are different as well, army verse army leads to different kinds of stories than PvE does. The themes you can explore with the different modes of play don't really coexist very well either, it is like when a movie can't focus on what its message is supose to be and just ends up being bad. Either way I would say economics and politics are the most dull motivator for PvP or PvE and you really need a deeper more interesting motivation.
I see your point and it's true the ideas I have are not a on-size-fits-all solution. I freely admit that I'm more interested in PvP then I am PvE. Having that that, I realize that a game needs all types (Pre CU Star Wars as the default example).
Cinimatic story lines will not work well in my concepts, but your assessment that politics and economics as dull motivators is, well, perplexing. If the foundation of the genre is achievement, unless you disagree, some of the best "rulers" of success are political and economic achievement. Identifying player motivation and leveraging it in a way that increases both adversarial and cooperative game play is paramount. However, all of this needs to be cloaked in good fiction.
The rest of your assessment is to generalized. It's like trying to define what makes a good car and is a subject filled with to much contention, but I'll accuse you of the same thing I accuse the industry. It's not that these things can't be done, it's that no one has figured out or been motivated enough to do it.
Achievement is a motivator but I think kind of a lazy one. It only really works for the most obssesive compulsive players who care about having the most and best. The heart of RPGs I think has always been story, in this sense economics and politics are very dry. You need a story that is more personal, who are these people, what are they doing, why are they doing it, why should I give a crap? Pursuit of wealth can easily turn into a job, where players don't really like the gameplay but they endure to get their next reward, like a skinnerbox set up. MMOs are really bad for this.
You could have a game that has PvP, PvE and crafting, but you really have to understand these gameplay types very well to impliment them well and make them coexist. Just making them interdependent isn't going to cut it, you have to incorporate the different gameplay types with the aspects that players enjoy of each. Keep in mind what crafters want contrdicts PvE players an PvP players in many ways. It isn't impossible but takes an extremely talented designer, which is why most people focus their game design.
All men think they're fascinating. In my case, it's justified
But being said I've had a jaded past of even the sidebar PVP content affecting my PVE skills. Nerfs on things "for pvp reasons" having a noticable PVE effect. In a perfect world you would be able to keep PVP unique and sectioned out away from PVE, but unfortunately developers do not see the value or want to put the work into making the two concepts completely seperated and alone from one another.
So again, Give me 100% PVE - If I want PVP I'll play an FPS.
Achievement is a motivator but I think kind of a lazy one. It only really works for the most obssesive compulsive players who care about having the most and best. The heart of RPGs I think has always been story, in this sense economics and politics are very dry. You need a story that is more personal, who are these people, what are they doing, why are they doing it, why should I give a crap? Pursuit of wealth can easily turn into a job, where players don't really like the gameplay but they endure to get their next reward, like a skinnerbox set up. MMOs are really bad for this.
You could have a game that has PvP, PvE and crafting, but you really have to understand these gameplay types very well to impliment them well and make them coexist. Just making them interdependent isn't going to cut it, you have to incorporate the different gameplay types with the aspects that players enjoy of each. Keep in mind what crafters want contrdicts PvE players an PvP players in many ways. It isn't impossible but takes an extremely talented designer, which is why most people focus their game design.
Wow, I don't think you understand the word achievement. MMORPG's are persistent and as such characters develop over time. ANYTHING a player does with his character is meant to achieve something. To call achievement "a lazy motivation" is to misunderstand the word. If I play an FPS my goal might be to kill the most people, or deem myself the controller of a particular area, or the flag capping king. In an MMO, I want to be the most well known, the crafter that can make anything, or the PvE'er that has every piece of tier 7 armor. The point is that achievement is the ONLY motivation. Tell me something that players want to do in game that would not be considered an achievement.
The heart of RPG's is the story? The story is the window dressing, it's not the heart. It certainly does not provide motivation but keeps players looking to achieve because they can immerse themselves in it. Thats not to say that it's not important, it's absolutely crucial, but as I said, the story is not at the heart of the game. You can have an RPG without a deep immersive fiction, but typically games with a good fiction are better, thus the story is not at the core.
No one said that simply making game play types interdependent was enough. To the contrary I believe that it would take a lot more, insight and imagination that has rarely been seen in the industry because the motivation is rarely to make a good game, but to make money....An observation that is so ubiquitous at this point it's almost cliché.
In regards to play becoming like a job, that's the first thing we clearly agree on, but I'm not certain we agree on where the line exists between fun game play and work or what it takes to maintain fun....
Cinimatic story lines will not work well in my concepts, but your assessment that politics and economics as dull motivators is, well, perplexing. If the foundation of the genre is achievement, unless you disagree, some of the best "rulers" of success are political and economic achievement. Identifying player motivation and leveraging it in a way that increases both adversarial and cooperative game play is paramount. However, all of this needs to be cloaked in good fiction.
The problem the concept of 'politics' has in MMORPGs is that to most players it is just 'drama'. Politically minded players invent drama so they can manipulate the opposing factions and achieve a position of power. This works in PvP games because in that type of game having the biggest 'gang' is important to enjoying the game. In PvE games if you do not like the drama of a guild you can just walk away and they can't do anything to you. In fact the most successful guild leaders are managers rather than politicians. A leadership position in a PvE game is more of a responsibility rather than a position of power.
As far as economic advancement goes, it hits a limit. In WoW some players can amass hundreds of thousands of gold. However, an average casual player only needs about 10k at the max level for various flight skills and then most fo their needs are taken care of by simply playing the game. As such wealth accumulation really does not give much power or respect.
Achievement is a motivator but I think kind of a lazy one. It only really works for the most obssesive compulsive players who care about having the most and best. The heart of RPGs I think has always been story, in this sense economics and politics are very dry. You need a story that is more personal, who are these people, what are they doing, why are they doing it, why should I give a crap? Pursuit of wealth can easily turn into a job, where players don't really like the gameplay but they endure to get their next reward, like a skinnerbox set up. MMOs are really bad for this.
You could have a game that has PvP, PvE and crafting, but you really have to understand these gameplay types very well to impliment them well and make them coexist. Just making them interdependent isn't going to cut it, you have to incorporate the different gameplay types with the aspects that players enjoy of each. Keep in mind what crafters want contrdicts PvE players an PvP players in many ways. It isn't impossible but takes an extremely talented designer, which is why most people focus their game design.
Wow, I don't think you understand the word achievement. MMORPG's are persistent and as such characters develop over time. ANYTHING a player does with his character is meant to achieve something. To call achievement "a lazy motivation" is to misunderstand the word. If I play an FPS my goal might be to kill the most people, or deem myself the controller of a particular area, or the flag capping king. In an MMO, I want to be the most well known, the crafter that can make anything, or the PvE'er that has every piece of tier 7 armor. The point is that achievement is the ONLY motivation. Tell me something that players want to do in game that would not be considered an achievement.
Achievement is how MMOs work now, stringing one carrot after the next to keep people playing even well beyond the point they stop being interested in the actual gameplay. It is lazy I think because it works off of addictive personality traits rather than genuinly good gameplay. After others have gotten bored and left, those left playing many MMOs do so because they get hooked on the reward process of MMOs. It isn't bad if used in moderation, X-Box achievements are pretty much the same thing, but MMOs use it to an extreme where the only motivation in a game is chasing the latest and greatest and the game has nothing to offer otherwise.
Achievement is a very ends focused motivator, players play to accomplish some end, but you can also focus on the means or intent of gameplay. Fun I think is the best motivator, that is enjoying the game for the gameplay, story is another good one, customization is another one, all of which can exist without being particularly achievement or goal oriented and enjoyed more as an experience, or in others the means and intent of gameplay.
The heart of RPG's is the story? The story is the window dressing, it's not the heart. It certainly does not provide motivation but keeps players looking to achieve because they can immerse themselves in it. Thats not to say that it's not important, it's absolutely crucial, but as I said, the story is not at the heart of the game. You can have an RPG without a deep immersive fiction, but typically games with a good fiction are better, thus the story is not at the core.
You can make a RPG with no story but how good is it? RPGs without a story is nothing more than pointless leveling and chasing of gear, which is just loot whoring at that point. So without the story a RPG is just a skinnerbox, no real sense of character development beyond increasing stats and getting new abilities. To roleplay players need a story and more importantly they need involvement in the story, something Bioware is pretty good at doing, I see character development as more than stats but personality as well, so without a story you are getting a rather 2D view of roleplaying. Not saying you can't have a RPG with no story, loot whoring games can do quite well, they are just not that deep.
No one said that simply making game play types interdependent was enough. To the contrary I believe that it would take a lot more, insight and imagination that has rarely been seen in the industry because the motivation is rarely to make a good game, but to make money....An observation that is so ubiquitous at this point it's almost cliché.
The best way to make money is to make a good game. Games are made for entertainment however so you have to take into account what people like. You have to balance innovation with practical knowledge of the player base. Something could be really innovative but people may not like it and if you are not focused on making money at all, then you probably will not.
That said I believe that devs want to make good games, there are certain hurdles to overcome; design issues that impact quality, time and budget. There are somethings you do not see because devs lack innovation or are concentrated on making money rather there are practical issues.
In regards to play becoming like a job, that's the first thing we clearly agree on, but I'm not certain we agree on where the line exists between fun game play and work or what it takes to maintain fun....
Basically I see something becoming a job when it is being done for the end results rather than for enjoyment. Hence why I think achievement focused gameplay is really prone to this.
All men think they're fascinating. In my case, it's justified
Cinimatic story lines will not work well in my concepts, but your assessment that politics and economics as dull motivators is, well, perplexing. If the foundation of the genre is achievement, unless you disagree, some of the best "rulers" of success are political and economic achievement. Identifying player motivation and leveraging it in a way that increases both adversarial and cooperative game play is paramount. However, all of this needs to be cloaked in good fiction.
The problem the concept of 'politics' has in MMORPGs is that to most players it is just 'drama'. Politically minded players invent drama so they can manipulate the opposing factions and achieve a position of power. This works in PvP games because in that type of game having the biggest 'gang' is important to enjoying the game. In PvE games if you do not like the drama of a guild you can just walk away and they can't do anything to you. In fact the most successful guild leaders are managers rather than politicians. A leadership position in a PvE game is more of a responsibility rather than a position of power.
As far as economic advancement goes, it hits a limit. In WoW some players can amass hundreds of thousands of gold. However, an average casual player only needs about 10k at the max level for various flight skills and then most fo their needs are taken care of by simply playing the game. As such wealth accumulation really does not give much power or respect.
I agree that "politics" plays little roll in todays MMORPG and frankly in retrospect I should have left it out. I think it is possible to include political elements, but it's not my focus, right now anyway. In the context of the MMORPG what you're talking about isn't politics for the sake of the game, but interpersonal politics that exists beyond the boundaries of the game itself. I ran a guild in DAoC for quite a while. When I quit, I decided that refereeing fights between children was something I did at home with my own kids, not something I wanted to do while I was online "playing a game".
You make an interesting point that I would like explore....You talk about economic advancement in WoW, but you assume that economic advancement is limited to the digital representation that Blizzard named "gold". Gold in most games barley fits the definition of money and the more you acquire the more this is so.
Wealth comes from not just what you have to jingle in your pocket, but in the extent of your possessions. If I had no money but if my character were perfectly equipt would I not be thought of as "wealthy"? As you elude to, once you reach the latest stages of the game money has virtually no value to you. I will point out this is because there is little or nothing that can be bought with it. It can rightfully be said that the value of money in most games come strictly from what it can buy. The flaw in this idea is that money has different value to different players.
It would be foolish of me to claim that this model (WoW) is a failure, as I would be thought of as mad, but I will make the claim that better concepts exist.
Achievement is how MMOs work now, stringing one carrot after the next to keep people playing even well beyond the point they stop being interested in the actual gameplay. It is lazy I think because it works off of addictive personality traits rather than genuinly good gameplay. After others have gotten bored and left, those left playing many MMOs do so because they get hooked on the reward process of MMOs. It isn't bad if used in moderation, X-Box achievements are pretty much the same thing, but MMOs use it to an extreme where the only motivation in a game is chasing the latest and greatest and the game has nothing to offer otherwise.
Achievement is a very ends focused motivator, players play to accomplish some end, but you can also focus on the means or intent of gameplay. Fun I think is the best motivator, that is enjoying the game for the gameplay, story is another good one, customization is another one, all of which can exist without being particularly achievement or goal oriented and enjoyed more as an experience, or in others the means and intent of gameplay.
But your defining achievement in a box. The problem is that achievement goes beyond the boundary you're trying define it in.
If your goal is to become part of an intricate story, you achieve that goal when you have reached each goal set before you, whatever it is.
If I want to have a reputation as the most well known dancer in SWG, that doesn't necessarily mean I have to commit myself to the carrot and the stick....
As far as focusing on the "means" of game play. I'm not sure what you mean by this. Does that mean that you would raid for hours and hours declining all the uber loot you've won because it's end? Seems silly to me. Some "ends" have ends, other ends do not (see paragraph above).
People get board and leave because there isn't any motivation left for them to continue to pursue achievement. That doesn't mean that the ends are exhausted, it usually means that whatever "ends" the player was having fun trying to reach or reaching was no longer enjoyable.
FUN is not a motivator is its the result of fulfilling achievement. If achievement cannot be reached the game is not fun. If achievement comes to easily the game is not fun (for most anyway). Fun is not a cause it is the result of some other cause.
You can make a RPG with no story but how good is it? RPGs without a story is nothing more than pointless leveling and chasing of gear, which is just loot whoring at that point. So without the story a RPG is just a skinnerbox, no real sense of character development beyond increasing stats and getting new abilities. To roleplay players need a story and more importantly they need involvement in the story, something Bioware is pretty good at doing, I see character development as more than stats but personality as well, so without a story you are getting a rather 2D view of roleplaying. Not saying you can't have a RPG with no story, loot whoring games can do quite well, they are just not that deep.
You're taking me to literally, obviously an RPG without a story is simply a competition of programmed mechanics. I think we can agree that a "story" can range for the rather simple, to the more complex. I would agree that to stories are important because they help create the sense of immersion for players.
Again, you seem to be off in a world that has to do more with how you feel then objectively considering how you could make a better game. You give me your opinion about character development being more about personality then stats. Personality? Are we talking strictly about literal role playing servers? If not, what in your mind constitues character development?
The best way to make money is to make a good game. Games are made for entertainment however so you have to take into account what people like. You have to balance innovation with practical knowledge of the player base. Something could be really innovative but people may not like it and if you are not focused on making money at all, then you probably will not.
That said I believe that devs want to make good games, there are certain hurdles to overcome; design issues that impact quality, time and budget. There are somethings you do not see because devs lack innovation or are concentrated on making money rather there are practical issues.
Now your just being nieve. Like to make the most money when making a movie is it make a good movie?
Same for games. Investors don't care about "good games" they care about profit. Which is why 90% of games are released to early. Not for a better game, but to earn money. You've been around here long enough, thought you would know better. I would agree the goal of most good developers is to make the best game they can, but you know as well as I do they can only do so much with resources given them.
Producers realize what it takes to make money, sure they would all like to be WoW, but I don't believe that that any producer (save a very select few) thinks that is a realistic goal. They look at money in, money out. Not everyone mind you, but the shitty games, this is probably the case.
Basically I see something becoming a job when it is being done for the end results rather than for enjoyment. Hence why I think achievement focused gameplay is really prone to this.
Again, all players and all games have achievement built in. A game by definition is a contest and therefore has to have some yardstick by which to measure success. To be a success you have to have a goal in which to achieve. I admit that in an MMO "winning" isn't simply a simple path to a clearly defined goal, but that is at it's essence why so many people enjoy MMOPG's because they can define a myriad of goals and work to achieve them....
Yes we are resentful, PvP is a component of the game yet has more pull over the classes than the majority of the game that is PvE. While I can appreciate your attempt to discuss new possibilities for games what you are failing to see is that in your discussion PvE fans cannot find what will protect what we like. I don't think that relying on each other for items is enough. You may be on to something but what you need to take away from this is how do "protect" the PvE from the PvP.
PvErs have thier own pull in the game...in fact they have pull on the entire game. I can't recall a single MMO I've played (even strickly PvE games) where PvErs complained that it was too much of a grind, the boss/instance is too hard, or the item I want never drops. This is what annoyed me because after I worked my way to get to a certain lvl in the game the PvE whining brings increased experience gain.....boss/instances made easier....increased drop rate.
While PvP may impact player skills/spells......those skill/spells can have separate formulas when a player uses that skill against a player or monsters. If the developer doesn't want to bother doing this then the fault is on them not the PvPers because I've seen it done in MMO's before.
On the other hand when PvErs impact the game it affects everyone and there's no way around it and at times (like increase drop drate) it affects the economy.
Someone else mentioned that time spent on PvP is just wasting resources. The same goes for PvErs who complain about lvling, item drops, and certain aspects of the game being too hard. The time wasted on fixing this for you because you can't do what others have done before you is also wasting resources that could be focused on Content.
Yes we are resentful, PvP is a component of the game yet has more pull over the classes than the majority of the game that is PvE. While I can appreciate your attempt to discuss new possibilities for games what you are failing to see is that in your discussion PvE fans cannot find what will protect what we like. I don't think that relying on each other for items is enough. You may be on to something but what you need to take away from this is how do "protect" the PvE from the PvP.
PvErs have thier own pull in the game...in fact they have pull on the entire game. I can't recall a single MMO I've played (even strickly PvE games) where PvErs complained that it was too much of a grind, the boss/instance is too hard, or the item I want never drops. This is what annoyed me because after I worked my way to get to a certain lvl in the game the PvE whining brings increased experience gain.....boss/instances made easier....increased drop rate.
While PvP may impact player skills/spells......those skill/spells can have separate formulas when a player uses that skill against a player or monsters. If the developer doesn't want to bother doing this then the fault is on them not the PvPers because I've seen it done in MMO's before.
On the other hand when PvErs impact the game it affects everyone and there's no way around it and at times (like increase drop drate) it affects the economy.
Someone else mentioned that time spent on PvP is just wasting resources. The same goes for PvErs who complain about lvling, item drops, and certain aspects of the game being too hard. The time wasted on fixing this for you because you can't do what others have done before you is also wasting resources that could be focused on Content.
I hope this topic doesn't devolve into a blame war.....
The fact is that most titles are PvE by nature with PvP added as a mini game or side show.....This is a failure of the genre to innovate and a failure on the part of the player base to recognize that this is the case.
The OP and the responses I have received are testament to how jaded the community has become on both sides and has only filled me with some renewed vigor to continue to develop my own concept (5+ years in the making), that I believe solves many of these problems.
It occurs to me that preconceived notions about what PvP and PvE actually are and how they should be handled is going to be one of my greatest challenges.
Yes we are resentful, PvP is a component of the game yet has more pull over the classes than the majority of the game that is PvE. While I can appreciate your attempt to discuss new possibilities for games what you are failing to see is that in your discussion PvE fans cannot find what will protect what we like. I don't think that relying on each other for items is enough. You may be on to something but what you need to take away from this is how do "protect" the PvE from the PvP.
PvErs have thier own pull in the game...in fact they have pull on the entire game. I can't recall a single MMO I've played (even strickly PvE games) where PvErs complained that it was too much of a grind, the boss/instance is too hard, or the item I want never drops. This is what annoyed me because after I worked my way to get to a certain lvl in the game the PvE whining brings increased experience gain.....boss/instances made easier....increased drop rate.
While PvP may impact player skills/spells......those skill/spells can have separate formulas when a player uses that skill against a player or monsters. If the developer doesn't want to bother doing this then the fault is on them not the PvPers because I've seen it done in MMO's before.
On the other hand when PvErs impact the game it affects everyone and there's no way around it and at times (like increase drop drate) it affects the economy.
Someone else mentioned that time spent on PvP is just wasting resources. The same goes for PvErs who complain about lvling, item drops, and certain aspects of the game being too hard. The time wasted on fixing this for you because you can't do what others have done before you is also wasting resources that could be focused on Content.
I hope this topic doesn't devolve into a blame war.....
The fact is that most titles are PvE by nature with PvP added as a mini game or side show.....This is a failure of the genre to innovate and a failure on the part of the player base to recognize that this is the case.
The OP and the responses I have received are testament to how jaded the community has become on both sides and has only filled me with some renewed vigor to continue to develop my own concept (5+ years in the making), that I believe solves many of these problems.
It occurs to me that preconceived notions about what PvP and PvE actually are and how they should be handled is going to be one of my greatest challenges.
Thanks!
I'm not trying to blame PvErs for ruining anything really (thought it could be taken like that). I'm merely point out the flaw in their arguement because it's like telling someone they can't do something but they can.
Take FFXI which is pretty much PvE. PvP there was like a side thing and never really a major part of the game. There I don't believe PvP should have ANY impact on the "classes/jobs" and if it did they should have that separate formula when against players or monsters. However, the games I tend to move towards now are more PvP related games where PvErs have no problem affecting things in the game for everyone and that's where it bugs me. I'm sure the same thing could be said vice versa and I agree with them on that.
I'm not trying to blame PvErs for ruining anything really (thought it could be taken like that). I'm merely point out the flaw in their arguement because it's like telling someone they can't do something but they can.
Take FFXI which is pretty much PvE. PvP there was like a side thing and never really a major part of the game. There I don't believe PvP should have ANY impact on the "classes/jobs" and if it did they should have that separate formula when against players or monsters. However, the games I tend to move towards now are more PvP related games where PvErs have no problem affecting things in the game for everyone and that's where it bugs me. I'm sure the same thing could be said vice versa and I agree with them on that.
I'm with you, I logged onto Warhamer the other day for the first time in over a year, to realize in horror that a game, which is clearly PvP (call it RvR), no longer had PvP servers....
Would you enjoy an MMO that focused solely on MMO and content consistent with PvE....
OR
Would you enjoy an MMO where there was specific PvE and PvP and Crafting content where players in each mode can, if they choose, play out there existence in the game in any one of three modes. Each mode would offer something unique that the other two modes need to make player made items. In the case of PvE, raw material would be the element that PvE'ers would supply, the raw material would be things collected from the game world, plants, ores ect or things collected from NPC monsters like Dragon scales, Cyclops eyes, and Yeti fur (as an example). Specifically PvE'ers would supply certain raw material to both PvP and Crafters. PvE would be split into gathers and quest/ raids and generally fighting NPC's
In other words the game would be set up with specific interdependencies. PvP'ers from your realm would have a vested interest in your success and as some if not all PvE would take place in areas open to PvP.
This is not to say that PvE'ers wouldn't be defenseless to PvP players, but specializing in PvE would mean making choices that would make you better at PvE then PvP and visa versa.
I know that some players enjoy PvE content exclusively, I'm just wondering if playing in a world where other players from your realm are dependent on you to provide raw materials from the PvE mode of play would potentially be more fun then playing in a PvE specific game....
I am principally a PvEer, but if a game handles having PvP like Arche Age is promising to then I don't mind.
If they deliver, how XL doing it sounds perfect so far.
I just wish developers would focus on a target market and execute well. This trend of trying to appease everyone is resulting in some rather bland games.
Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.
Originally posted by kaydinv Originally posted by Talinguard
Originally posted by kaydinv
Originally posted by Talinguard
I was wondering when the PvP crow would show up. Please keep it civil, it's been an interesting discussion so far... Cheers!
You are one of those ignorant people that think the know what they're talking about. I have never attacked anyone in any game I've ever played. I prefer being the prey of the hunter, but still coming out on top or just making it out alive. I live for the thrill of the game. I don't give a shit about consensual PVP. I play mainly for adventure. You can't have adventure without something unexpected happening...no matter how hard you want to convince yourself and that's why I like nonconsensual PVP. Oops! Do I not fit the stereotype that you misinformingly attributed me to? Are you going to try and back out and pretend you weren't talking about me? It must suck knowing there are people out there, aware of the fact that there could be something waaaaaay better than the shit you pretend is enjoyable while you roll your face across 1,2,3 and 4 and watch some pointless monster drop to the ground. Eat it. LOL....I guess school is out..... Really? You were so dumbfounded by my post that all you could muster was a shallow and innacurate insult? You immature dults are so spoiled by the games that get made annually for your pleasure. The MMORPG market is oversaturated with pointless, instanced "Battleground PVP" and easy mode "PVE" with no consequence for failure MMORPG's yet the people in this thread claim that it's the "PVP crowd" that can't be satisfied. There's so fucking many of the "WoW, ME TOO," games yet everyone is drifting along waiting for "that one MMO" except the people playing WoW. You sit there with your shit-eating grins, pondering amongst the endless amounts of games that are made "for your tastes" only to never be satisfied and then blame it on everyone else. If you idiots would listen to the "vocal minority," you might find that there's actually progress to be made in this genre instead of slapping eachother's asses while you debate about whether or not "PVE, PVP and Crafting could all exist in ONE GAME!?!??!" when it's been done before in the past...successfully. It's the morons buying every game, preordering SWTOR because it's FACT that it's going to be AMAZING even though there's no reason to believe that and standing behind concepts like consensual PVP only while slandering the idea of nonconsensual PVP that you've never experienced or were too immature to actually give any real consideration.
*grabs popcorn*
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I was wondering when the PvP crow would show up. Please keep it civil, it's been an interesting discussion so far...
Cheers!
You are one of those ignorant people that think the know what they're talking about.
I have never attacked anyone in any game I've ever played. I prefer being the prey of the hunter, but still coming out on top or just making it out alive. I live for the thrill of the game. I don't give a shit about consensual PVP. I play mainly for adventure. You can't have adventure without something unexpected happening...no matter how hard you want to convince yourself and that's why I like nonconsensual PVP.
Oops! Do I not fit the stereotype that you misinformingly attributed me to? Are you going to try and back out and pretend you weren't talking about me?
It must suck knowing there are people out there, aware of the fact that there could be something waaaaaay better than the shit you pretend is enjoyable while you roll your face across 1,2,3 and 4 and watch some pointless monster drop to the ground.
Eat it.
LOL....I guess school is out.....
Really? You were so dumbfounded by my post that all you could muster was a shallow and innacurate insult?
You immature dults are so spoiled by the games that get made annually for your pleasure. The MMORPG market is oversaturated with pointless, instanced "Battleground PVP" and easy mode "PVE" with no consequence for failure MMORPG's yet the people in this thread claim that it's the "PVP crowd" that can't be satisfied. There's so fucking many of the "WoW, ME TOO," games yet everyone is drifting along waiting for "that one MMO" except the people playing WoW.
You sit there with your shit-eating grins, pondering amongst the endless amounts of games that are made "for your tastes" only to never be satisfied and then blame it on everyone else. If you idiots would listen to the "vocal minority," you might find that there's actually progress to be made in this genre instead of slapping eachother's asses while you debate about whether or not "PVE, PVP and Crafting could all exist in ONE GAME!?!??!" when it's been done before in the past...successfully.
It's the morons buying every game, preordering SWTOR because it's FACT that it's going to be AMAZING even though there's no reason to believe that and standing behind concepts like consensual PVP only while slandering the idea of nonconsensual PVP that you've never experienced or were too immature to actually give any real consideration that hold back this genre from actually becoming about the adventure again.
But your defining achievement in a box. The problem is that achievement goes beyond the boundary you're trying define it in.
If your goal is to become part of an intricate story, you achieve that goal when you have reached each goal set before you, whatever it is.
If I want to have a reputation as the most well known dancer in SWG, that doesn't necessarily mean I have to commit myself to the carrot and the stick....
In the broadest sense yes, but I am refering to in game achievement not personal goals, so things like getting uber loot or getting a better ship.
As far as focusing on the "means" of game play. I'm not sure what you mean by this. Does that mean that you would raid for hours and hours declining all the uber loot you've won because it's end? Seems silly to me. Some "ends" have ends, other ends do not (see paragraph above).
Means refers to the process of something being fun. For raiding, people like getting the items but few like doing the same dugeon over and over. The end result is epic loot and that could be fun if you care, the process is long and boring however. If you find the dungeons boring and are not interested in gear then you just don't play. Being focused on the "means" means you are focusing on making raiding fun, not just getting gear.
People get board and leave because there isn't any motivation left for them to continue to pursue achievement. That doesn't mean that the ends are exhausted, it usually means that whatever "ends" the player was having fun trying to reach or reaching was no longer enjoyable.
That is kind of the point the only fun MMOs offer is getting things, for some that is enough but for many would be players they need more to keep them interested.
FUN is not a motivator is its the result of fulfilling achievement. If achievement cannot be reached the game is not fun. If achievement comes to easily the game is not fun (for most anyway). Fun is not a cause it is the result of some other cause.
Fun is the motivator to play games how you have fun is the issue. You could just screw around with game mechanics and have fun without any particular goal, so it doesn't all come down to achievement.
You're taking me to literally, obviously an RPG without a story is simply a competition of programmed mechanics. I think we can agree that a "story" can range for the rather simple, to the more complex. I would agree that to stories are important because they help create the sense of immersion for players.
Again, you seem to be off in a world that has to do more with how you feel then objectively considering how you could make a better game. You give me your opinion about character development being more about personality then stats. Personality? Are we talking strictly about literal role playing servers? If not, what in your mind constitues character development?
Well you can't objectively make a game better, its all subjective, you just have to try and figure how other people feel about something and make a better game for that group of people.
Stories are more than immersion, they give a whole new way to look at a game and a new set of motivations. A game that has a story where the player has input lets the players think about the actions of their character in the game and a well written story can engauge a player on a personal level. The result is a game where the player can develop a persona for themselves and can be personally invested in the choices they make, because they care what happens in the story beyond what rewards they get.
Now your just being nieve. Like to make the most money when making a movie is it make a good movie?
Same for games. Investors don't care about "good games" they care about profit. Which is why 90% of games are released to early. Not for a better game, but to earn money. You've been around here long enough, thought you would know better. I would agree the goal of most good developers is to make the best game they can, but you know as well as I do they can only do so much with resources given them.
Producers realize what it takes to make money, sure they would all like to be WoW, but I don't believe that that any producer (save a very select few) thinks that is a realistic goal. They look at money in, money out. Not everyone mind you, but the shitty games, this is probably the case.
And half finished games don't make money. Yeah there limitations on time, budget and practicality, like I said, but the most successful games are the best made ones. Generally games that get released too early don't do that well, releasing too early is a poor business strategy by incompotent businessmen. So like I said the best way to make money is to make a good game.
Again, all players and all games have achievement built in. A game by definition is a contest and therefore has to have some yardstick by which to measure success. To be a success you have to have a goal in which to achieve. I admit that in an MMO "winning" isn't simply a simple path to a clearly defined goal, but that is at it's essence why so many people enjoy MMOPG's because they can define a myriad of goals and work to achieve them....
But often times players endure the gameplay to get some achievement. Yes I do think players play games they do not enjoy most of the time, they just like the feeling of getting something and are wiling to trudge through dull gameplay to get the next reward. This has more to do with addictive personality traits than fun though.
All men think they're fascinating. In my case, it's justified
I was wondering when the PvP crow would show up. Please keep it civil, it's been an interesting discussion so far...
Cheers!
You are one of those ignorant people that think the know what they're talking about.
I have never attacked anyone in any game I've ever played. I prefer being the prey of the hunter, but still coming out on top or just making it out alive. I live for the thrill of the game. I don't give a shit about consensual PVP. I play mainly for adventure. You can't have adventure without something unexpected happening...no matter how hard you want to convince yourself and that's why I like nonconsensual PVP.
Oops! Do I not fit the stereotype that you misinformingly attributed me to? Are you going to try and back out and pretend you weren't talking about me?
It must suck knowing there are people out there, aware of the fact that there could be something waaaaaay better than the shit you pretend is enjoyable while you roll your face across 1,2,3 and 4 and watch some pointless monster drop to the ground.
Eat it.
LOL....I guess school is out.....
Really? You were so dumbfounded by my post that all you could muster was a shallow and innacurate insult?
You immature dults are so spoiled by the games that get made annually for your pleasure. The MMORPG market is oversaturated with pointless, instanced "Battleground PVP" and easy mode "PVE" with no consequence for failure MMORPG's yet the people in this thread claim that it's the "PVP crowd" that can't be satisfied. There's so fucking many of the "WoW, ME TOO," games yet everyone is drifting along waiting for "that one MMO" except the people playing WoW.
You sit there with your shit-eating grins, pondering amongst the endless amounts of games that are made "for your tastes" only to never be satisfied and then blame it on everyone else. If you idiots would listen to the "vocal minority," you might find that there's actually progress to be made in this genre instead of slapping eachother's asses while you debate about whether or not "PVE, PVP and Crafting could all exist in ONE GAME!?!??!" when it's been done before in the past...successfully.
It's the morons buying every game, preordering SWTOR because it's FACT that it's going to be AMAZING even though there's no reason to believe that and standing behind concepts like consensual PVP only while slandering the idea of nonconsensual PVP that you've never experienced or were too immature to actually give any real consideration that hold back this genre from actually becoming about the adventure again.
Why do you assume I fit in that category? You do the same thing you assume I did to you then you fling yourself into a childish tirade, twice and wonder why I respond with a low grade insult....
You want to put your big boy pants on, I would be glad to discuss, or debate any point you would like to address...
3. on the way back to town get slaughtered multiple times by a corpse camping griefer
= Adventure?
That's going to be a tough one to sell to a mass appeal audience.
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
3. on the way back to town get slaughtered multiple times by a corpse camping griefer
= Adventure?
That's going to be a tough one to sell to a mass appeal audience.
But getting your level 40 character ganked repeatedly by a level 80 is all about the skill, man! Don't you love the challenge of dying without a chance to fight back?
Really? You were so dumbfounded by my post that all you could muster was a shallow and innacurate insult?
You immature dults are so spoiled by the games that get made annually for your pleasure. The MMORPG market is oversaturated with pointless, instanced "Battleground PVP" and easy mode "PVE" with no consequence for failure MMORPG's yet the people in this thread claim that it's the "PVP crowd" that can't be satisfied. There's so fucking many of the "WoW, ME TOO," games yet everyone is drifting along waiting for "that one MMO" except the people playing WoW.
You sit there with your shit-eating grins, pondering amongst the endless amounts of games that are made "for your tastes" only to never be satisfied and then blame it on everyone else. If you idiots would listen to the "vocal minority," you might find that there's actually progress to be made in this genre instead of slapping eachother's asses while you debate about whether or not "PVE, PVP and Crafting could all exist in ONE GAME!?!??!" when it's been done before in the past...successfully.
It's the morons buying every game, preordering SWTOR because it's FACT that it's going to be AMAZING even though there's no reason to believe that and standing behind concepts like consensual PVP only while slandering the idea of nonconsensual PVP that you've never experienced or were too immature to actually give any real consideration that hold back this genre from actually becoming about the adventure again.
Why do you assume I fit in that category? You do the same thing you assume I did to you then you fling yourself into a childish tirade, twice and wonder why I respond with a low grade insult....
You want to put you big boy pants on, I would be glad to discuss, or debate any point you would like to address...
Cheers....
That's not true and you know it. Don't try and bullshit your way out of this.
You lumped me into the PVP crowd and then I explained to you where I really stand.
You claim I did the same thing but you don't clarify what category you think I lumped you into? Why don't you explain that part? Sorry, it's not good enough to just tell someone they're "wrong" in a debate and then turn around and pretend your argument landed you fucking child. No one awards you any points. You don't "win." You haven't contributed anything to ANY argument at all.
In my last post, the first sentence was the only part where I addressed to you.
_________________________________ "Fixed it. Because that wall of text attacked me, killed me and looted my body..." -George "sniperg" Light
3. on the way back to town get slaughtered multiple times by a corpse camping griefer
= Adventure?
That's going to be a tough one to sell to a mass appeal audience.
If you only had the imagination to realize a game could exist that doesn't share your exact Character Level to everyone else, including your hunter, and that in that type of game people would be much less inclined to attack you.
OR
If only you had the imagination to realize a game could exist where you could escape from that PK.
OR
If only you had the imagination to realize a game could exist where your corpse couldn't be "camped."
OR
If only you had the imagination to realize a game could exist where acquiring those materials wasn't a chore.
OR
If only you had the imagination to realize a game could exist that isn't exactly the ONE WAY you can imagine it happening because of your lack of experience and your stubbornness.
Somehow, to you:
1. grind materials
2. travel to get rare crafting pattern
3. get back to town
= Adventure?
I'm confused...did you see this coming when you made that point? Do 3 mundane tasks add up to 1 Adventure? No, they don't.
I'll take one of my examples from above:
1. Grind materials
2. Travel to get rare crafting pattern
3. On the way back to town, get ambushed by a bloodthirsty player
4. Narrowly escape from the other player
= Adventure
_________________________________ "Fixed it. Because that wall of text attacked me, killed me and looted my body..." -George "sniperg" Light
I find this kind of insulting actually, basically it boils down to the PvE'ers doing the grunt work so the PvP'ers and crafters do not have to at all anymore, seems just like another "get everything for free" type of system to me.
Not to mention the havok such a system would cause on market prices, when only something like 1/3 of the population is even able to gather basic materials the prices would eventually sky rocket and would probably just be ignored by creating alt's, and could just render the system useless and make gathering things more difficult than they need to be, since people will need to create different characters to gather certain things.
I see what this type of system is trying to accomplish, unity and dependancy on your fellow players, creating a more community based mmo structure, but I just don't see that working out anymore, and since most will likely just be creating alts to avoid unreasonible prices it would just make that whole gathering process even longer.
Time does equal money in mmo's, especially so if they are p2p :P and anyone who is actually paying for their own MMO sub just won't have the extra time it will take to gather certain things, it's much better for them if everyone is able to gather and sell everything, this way prices stay sane and those mats will always be available at any given time, without the need to ever create an alt.
Comments
Achievement is a motivator but I think kind of a lazy one. It only really works for the most obssesive compulsive players who care about having the most and best. The heart of RPGs I think has always been story, in this sense economics and politics are very dry. You need a story that is more personal, who are these people, what are they doing, why are they doing it, why should I give a crap? Pursuit of wealth can easily turn into a job, where players don't really like the gameplay but they endure to get their next reward, like a skinnerbox set up. MMOs are really bad for this.
You could have a game that has PvP, PvE and crafting, but you really have to understand these gameplay types very well to impliment them well and make them coexist. Just making them interdependent isn't going to cut it, you have to incorporate the different gameplay types with the aspects that players enjoy of each. Keep in mind what crafters want contrdicts PvE players an PvP players in many ways. It isn't impossible but takes an extremely talented designer, which is why most people focus their game design.
All men think they're fascinating. In my case, it's justified
I'll be selfish, Pure PVE.
But being said I've had a jaded past of even the sidebar PVP content affecting my PVE skills. Nerfs on things "for pvp reasons" having a noticable PVE effect. In a perfect world you would be able to keep PVP unique and sectioned out away from PVE, but unfortunately developers do not see the value or want to put the work into making the two concepts completely seperated and alone from one another.
So again, Give me 100% PVE - If I want PVP I'll play an FPS.
Wow, I don't think you understand the word achievement. MMORPG's are persistent and as such characters develop over time. ANYTHING a player does with his character is meant to achieve something. To call achievement "a lazy motivation" is to misunderstand the word. If I play an FPS my goal might be to kill the most people, or deem myself the controller of a particular area, or the flag capping king. In an MMO, I want to be the most well known, the crafter that can make anything, or the PvE'er that has every piece of tier 7 armor. The point is that achievement is the ONLY motivation. Tell me something that players want to do in game that would not be considered an achievement.
The heart of RPG's is the story? The story is the window dressing, it's not the heart. It certainly does not provide motivation but keeps players looking to achieve because they can immerse themselves in it. Thats not to say that it's not important, it's absolutely crucial, but as I said, the story is not at the heart of the game. You can have an RPG without a deep immersive fiction, but typically games with a good fiction are better, thus the story is not at the core.
No one said that simply making game play types interdependent was enough. To the contrary I believe that it would take a lot more, insight and imagination that has rarely been seen in the industry because the motivation is rarely to make a good game, but to make money....An observation that is so ubiquitous at this point it's almost cliché.
In regards to play becoming like a job, that's the first thing we clearly agree on, but I'm not certain we agree on where the line exists between fun game play and work or what it takes to maintain fun....
Presentation for new MMORPG economics concept http://www.slideshare.net/talin/mmo-economics-concept-v-10
The problem the concept of 'politics' has in MMORPGs is that to most players it is just 'drama'. Politically minded players invent drama so they can manipulate the opposing factions and achieve a position of power. This works in PvP games because in that type of game having the biggest 'gang' is important to enjoying the game. In PvE games if you do not like the drama of a guild you can just walk away and they can't do anything to you. In fact the most successful guild leaders are managers rather than politicians. A leadership position in a PvE game is more of a responsibility rather than a position of power.
As far as economic advancement goes, it hits a limit. In WoW some players can amass hundreds of thousands of gold. However, an average casual player only needs about 10k at the max level for various flight skills and then most fo their needs are taken care of by simply playing the game. As such wealth accumulation really does not give much power or respect.
All men think they're fascinating. In my case, it's justified
I agree that "politics" plays little roll in todays MMORPG and frankly in retrospect I should have left it out. I think it is possible to include political elements, but it's not my focus, right now anyway. In the context of the MMORPG what you're talking about isn't politics for the sake of the game, but interpersonal politics that exists beyond the boundaries of the game itself. I ran a guild in DAoC for quite a while. When I quit, I decided that refereeing fights between children was something I did at home with my own kids, not something I wanted to do while I was online "playing a game".
You make an interesting point that I would like explore....You talk about economic advancement in WoW, but you assume that economic advancement is limited to the digital representation that Blizzard named "gold". Gold in most games barley fits the definition of money and the more you acquire the more this is so.
Wealth comes from not just what you have to jingle in your pocket, but in the extent of your possessions. If I had no money but if my character were perfectly equipt would I not be thought of as "wealthy"? As you elude to, once you reach the latest stages of the game money has virtually no value to you. I will point out this is because there is little or nothing that can be bought with it. It can rightfully be said that the value of money in most games come strictly from what it can buy. The flaw in this idea is that money has different value to different players.
It would be foolish of me to claim that this model (WoW) is a failure, as I would be thought of as mad, but I will make the claim that better concepts exist.
Presentation for new MMORPG economics concept http://www.slideshare.net/talin/mmo-economics-concept-v-10
Presentation for new MMORPG economics concept http://www.slideshare.net/talin/mmo-economics-concept-v-10
PvErs have thier own pull in the game...in fact they have pull on the entire game. I can't recall a single MMO I've played (even strickly PvE games) where PvErs complained that it was too much of a grind, the boss/instance is too hard, or the item I want never drops. This is what annoyed me because after I worked my way to get to a certain lvl in the game the PvE whining brings increased experience gain.....boss/instances made easier....increased drop rate.
While PvP may impact player skills/spells......those skill/spells can have separate formulas when a player uses that skill against a player or monsters. If the developer doesn't want to bother doing this then the fault is on them not the PvPers because I've seen it done in MMO's before.
On the other hand when PvErs impact the game it affects everyone and there's no way around it and at times (like increase drop drate) it affects the economy.
Someone else mentioned that time spent on PvP is just wasting resources. The same goes for PvErs who complain about lvling, item drops, and certain aspects of the game being too hard. The time wasted on fixing this for you because you can't do what others have done before you is also wasting resources that could be focused on Content.
I hope this topic doesn't devolve into a blame war.....
The fact is that most titles are PvE by nature with PvP added as a mini game or side show.....This is a failure of the genre to innovate and a failure on the part of the player base to recognize that this is the case.
The OP and the responses I have received are testament to how jaded the community has become on both sides and has only filled me with some renewed vigor to continue to develop my own concept (5+ years in the making), that I believe solves many of these problems.
It occurs to me that preconceived notions about what PvP and PvE actually are and how they should be handled is going to be one of my greatest challenges.
Thanks!
Presentation for new MMORPG economics concept http://www.slideshare.net/talin/mmo-economics-concept-v-10
I'm not trying to blame PvErs for ruining anything really (thought it could be taken like that). I'm merely point out the flaw in their arguement because it's like telling someone they can't do something but they can.
Take FFXI which is pretty much PvE. PvP there was like a side thing and never really a major part of the game. There I don't believe PvP should have ANY impact on the "classes/jobs" and if it did they should have that separate formula when against players or monsters. However, the games I tend to move towards now are more PvP related games where PvErs have no problem affecting things in the game for everyone and that's where it bugs me. I'm sure the same thing could be said vice versa and I agree with them on that.
I'm with you, I logged onto Warhamer the other day for the first time in over a year, to realize in horror that a game, which is clearly PvP (call it RvR), no longer had PvP servers....
Presentation for new MMORPG economics concept http://www.slideshare.net/talin/mmo-economics-concept-v-10
I am principally a PvEer, but if a game handles having PvP like Arche Age is promising to then I don't mind.
If they deliver, how XL doing it sounds perfect so far.
I just wish developers would focus on a target market and execute well. This trend of trying to appease everyone is resulting in some rather bland games.
Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.
This post was a response to a post that has been removed....
Presentation for new MMORPG economics concept http://www.slideshare.net/talin/mmo-economics-concept-v-10
I have never attacked anyone in any game I've ever played. I prefer being the prey of the hunter, but still coming out on top or just making it out alive. I live for the thrill of the game. I don't give a shit about consensual PVP. I play mainly for adventure. You can't have adventure without something unexpected happening...no matter how hard you want to convince yourself and that's why I like nonconsensual PVP.
Oops! Do I not fit the stereotype that you misinformingly attributed me to? Are you going to try and back out and pretend you weren't talking about me?
It must suck knowing there are people out there, aware of the fact that there could be something waaaaaay better than the shit you pretend is enjoyable while you roll your face across 1,2,3 and 4 and watch some pointless monster drop to the ground.
Eat it.
LOL....I guess school is out.....
Really? You were so dumbfounded by my post that all you could muster was a shallow and innacurate insult?
You immature dults are so spoiled by the games that get made annually for your pleasure. The MMORPG market is oversaturated with pointless, instanced "Battleground PVP" and easy mode "PVE" with no consequence for failure MMORPG's yet the people in this thread claim that it's the "PVP crowd" that can't be satisfied. There's so fucking many of the "WoW, ME TOO," games yet everyone is drifting along waiting for "that one MMO" except the people playing WoW.
You sit there with your shit-eating grins, pondering amongst the endless amounts of games that are made "for your tastes" only to never be satisfied and then blame it on everyone else. If you idiots would listen to the "vocal minority," you might find that there's actually progress to be made in this genre instead of slapping eachother's asses while you debate about whether or not "PVE, PVP and Crafting could all exist in ONE GAME!?!??!" when it's been done before in the past...successfully.
It's the morons buying every game, preordering SWTOR because it's FACT that it's going to be AMAZING even though there's no reason to believe that and standing behind concepts like consensual PVP only while slandering the idea of nonconsensual PVP that you've never experienced or were too immature to actually give any real consideration.
*grabs popcorn*
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I love this post
All men think they're fascinating. In my case, it's justified
Why do you assume I fit in that category? You do the same thing you assume I did to you then you fling yourself into a childish tirade, twice and wonder why I respond with a low grade insult....
You want to put your big boy pants on, I would be glad to discuss, or debate any point you would like to address...
Cheers....
Presentation for new MMORPG economics concept http://www.slideshare.net/talin/mmo-economics-concept-v-10
To the OP.
I dont play PvE to craft and gather materials. crafting and gathering mats are such a hassle and a money sink in the MMO world.
I play PvE for the exploration and story/lore
-I am here to perform logic
My day...
1. grind materials
2. travel to get rare crafting pattern
3. on the way back to town get slaughtered multiple times by a corpse camping griefer
= Adventure?
That's going to be a tough one to sell to a mass appeal audience.
But getting your level 40 character ganked repeatedly by a level 80 is all about the skill, man! Don't you love the challenge of dying without a chance to fight back?
That's not true and you know it. Don't try and bullshit your way out of this.
You lumped me into the PVP crowd and then I explained to you where I really stand.
You claim I did the same thing but you don't clarify what category you think I lumped you into? Why don't you explain that part? Sorry, it's not good enough to just tell someone they're "wrong" in a debate and then turn around and pretend your argument landed you fucking child. No one awards you any points. You don't "win." You haven't contributed anything to ANY argument at all.
In my last post, the first sentence was the only part where I addressed to you.
_________________________________
"Fixed it. Because that wall of text attacked me, killed me and looted my body..."
-George "sniperg" Light
If you only had the imagination to realize a game could exist that doesn't share your exact Character Level to everyone else, including your hunter, and that in that type of game people would be much less inclined to attack you.
OR
If only you had the imagination to realize a game could exist where you could escape from that PK.
OR
If only you had the imagination to realize a game could exist where your corpse couldn't be "camped."
OR
If only you had the imagination to realize a game could exist where acquiring those materials wasn't a chore.
OR
If only you had the imagination to realize a game could exist that isn't exactly the ONE WAY you can imagine it happening because of your lack of experience and your stubbornness.
Somehow, to you:
1. grind materials
2. travel to get rare crafting pattern
3. get back to town
= Adventure?
I'm confused...did you see this coming when you made that point? Do 3 mundane tasks add up to 1 Adventure? No, they don't.
I'll take one of my examples from above:
1. Grind materials
2. Travel to get rare crafting pattern
3. On the way back to town, get ambushed by a bloodthirsty player
4. Narrowly escape from the other player
= Adventure
_________________________________
"Fixed it. Because that wall of text attacked me, killed me and looted my body..."
-George "sniperg" Light
To the contrary, I'm not promoting this mechanic at all. I think players should have choices. Risk vs. reward..
Your day...
1. grind materials
2. travel to get rare crafting pattern
3. Take the long road or the short road and one of two things happens...
Risk taking the short road and....Get back faster save lots of time and be more efficient
Take the short road on the way back to town get slaughtered multiple times by a corpse camping griefer
OR
Take the long road, lose time, but avoid the potential consequence above....
Obviously I'm over simplifying....
Presentation for new MMORPG economics concept http://www.slideshare.net/talin/mmo-economics-concept-v-10
I find this kind of insulting actually, basically it boils down to the PvE'ers doing the grunt work so the PvP'ers and crafters do not have to at all anymore, seems just like another "get everything for free" type of system to me.
Not to mention the havok such a system would cause on market prices, when only something like 1/3 of the population is even able to gather basic materials the prices would eventually sky rocket and would probably just be ignored by creating alt's, and could just render the system useless and make gathering things more difficult than they need to be, since people will need to create different characters to gather certain things.
I see what this type of system is trying to accomplish, unity and dependancy on your fellow players, creating a more community based mmo structure, but I just don't see that working out anymore, and since most will likely just be creating alts to avoid unreasonible prices it would just make that whole gathering process even longer.
Time does equal money in mmo's, especially so if they are p2p :P and anyone who is actually paying for their own MMO sub just won't have the extra time it will take to gather certain things, it's much better for them if everyone is able to gather and sell everything, this way prices stay sane and those mats will always be available at any given time, without the need to ever create an alt.