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Desperate Plea for an Open PVP (RvR) End Game MMO
Keridwen
Member UncommonPosts: 58
PVP End game- a desperate request
This is a desperate plea to all Game Developers that they acknowledge the need of a very significant number of gamers who want a three faction, open pvp (RvR) end game, that builds on the success of DAoC New Frontiers. And no, I am not going back to DAoC - done that four times. We want a brand, sparkling new MMO, significantly advancing the end game open PvP concept, structure and content.
A PVP challenge to the Developers of new or up and coming MMOs: Posted by Rap (Rift Forums)
Why would I want to PVP at the end game? I hate gear, don't tell me to farm gear. I want keeps, castles, mines, something to fight over. I want to **** your guild and make you remember my name so the next time you see it, you run. I am here because all of my favorite games are basically dead, so deal with it. I am a veteran pvper and I am looking for a new game. If you can make this game even remotely interesting end game, you can attract the entire pvp community here, and I don't mean the arena crowd from WOW. I would not even have paid attention to this game but there is literally nothing else on the horizon, so make me stay and bring my community a new hope. Give us a reason to PVP in a non instanced, open world with actual purpose. Give us politics, give us a community, hell give us our own completely open pvp server, if you did that I can guarantee you would have an entire community here in a heartbeat. This post is desperate but that is how I and thousands of other gamers feel at this time in MMO history, desperate. So tell me, what is there to do end game PVP?
This is a somewhat sarcastic post but my questions are serious. So bring it devs, make me want to play this game.
Femmes Fatales - The Power of the Feminine in the Art of MMOs.
Played:
WOW - GW - WAR - AOC - CoH/CoV - EQ2 - SWG - FFXI - DAOC - EVE - VG - L2 - RFO - DFO - DDO - LOTR
Comments
The thing about open RvR endgames is that they eventually become zerg fests.
Yeah zerging is the biggest argument against open PVP, but to be honest 3-faction RVR at least gets a little more security against imbalance since you have the potential to give underdog bonuses (which isn't really feasible in an open-player-faction game.)
While you and I may prefer carebear PVP (where, ironically, skill matters) there's a nontrivial market for PVP games with lots of simplistic imbalances (like "zerg2win"). Shallow as they are, these games enjoy a certain minor popularity.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
The answer is in guild wars 2, although that's not end game only (but higher level characters do generally have the more important fights to deal with). However if you want to spend your entire gaming life playing the RvRvR pvp in gw2 you can (you level up inside it too).
What little we know is that it's 3 realms fighting across 4 linked maps with sieges, forts, supply lines and a whole myriad of objectives that tiny groups, single players or even huge zergs can fight for (the zergs being somewhat misplaced if they decide to attack a supply caravan as opposed to an enemy fort). Sounds quite fun. There's also the more focused and far more skillful than any MMO ever (the runner up being guild wars 1) pvp that's 5v5. summary: 5v5, all skills, max gear, all traits, you make the build, you fight on an even battlefield. Winner is the better team. It'll expose WoW (and most other MMO's) PvP (even more) as the best-gear-wins whack-a-mole it really is.
World versus world is one of the many guild wars 2 features they won't talk about in much detail because they're still perfecting it, the gits. Most companies would have shoved guild wars 2 out the door now with a £10 a month sub. Instead we get buy once to play and wait for a awesome game on release. What's going on with them eh?
Lol, did you just say you need skill too do current mmo pvp ? LMFAO. Oh yah , battlegrounds in a lock target, mash macroed button combat system , where the only thing you need to win is better gear. Yah thats skill alright. Morons.
Um that is skill someone with less gear can and will beat someone with more gear if they are better.
Significantly better, yes. Two equally skilled players, but one having played for 3k hours compared to 2 hours will never be a fair fight. Guild wars 1 pvp crapped all over MMO's such as WoW, and guild wars 2's looks even better!
I agree especially about GW but just saying wows pvp really isn't bad at all. All the top tier pvpers are highly skilled and mostly play against people with equal gear. Thats when the skill comes into play.
The thing about zergs is if developed right a small group of players can kill a mass amount of them. This is how it is in Daoc and how it should have been in War but good ole Mark Jacobs took care of that.
Back to the point of this thread.
/signed
"Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth."
That's part of the fun, and part of what builds a sense of community in the game.
It often doesn't start as a zerg. You go out with a raiding party of 8, and you kill some of the enemy you catch off guard, or wahtever. They go get help, and come back and kill you. So you go get help and come back and kill them.
Next thing you know, one side manages to recruit a zerg and hold the field and make the other side run.
it's fun.
I have heard mention that Secret World will be three faction PvP end game and Cabal RvR rankings etc. Hell, I would have intimate sexual encounters with Ragnar on the last Friday of every month, for a whole year, if that was the case !!! Hmmmph as long as it was an expensive dinner beforehand .... As the title of the thread clearly state "desperate plea". Only joking
Femmes Fatales - The Power of the Feminine in the Art of MMOs.
Played:
WOW - GW - WAR - AOC - CoH/CoV - EQ2 - SWG - FFXI - DAOC - EVE - VG - L2 - RFO - DFO - DDO - LOTR
I see this plea over and over again. Then I see "hardcore pvp" games sell 800k copies in one month then crash and burn because the developers can't hack it.
I think "they" fear us even if they could make millions.
The definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
Saying a small group "can" beat the odds is true in virtually every game.
If there's 1000 fights and the underdogs win 10 times, the underdogs "can" beat the odds...it's just not very frequent, nor does it really justify the fact that 990 of the fights were uninteresting, one-sided slaughters.
The best sports matches are those where the winner isn't a foregone conclusion.
The best PVP is the same. And when the winner isn't a foregone conclusion, player decisions have a lot more influence over the outcome which is much more satisfying than knowing the battle's result the second you see the enemy force's size.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
What's wrong with zergs? It's the most interesting PvP I know, because military strategy matters and not some rather obscure skill with a mouse button. Is a zerg "fair"? Of course not, but war is never fair and I wouldn't know why it should.
I'm aware that many PvP players look for what they call "fair" fights, i.e. 1vs1, 4vs4, 8vs8, or whatever the group size may be. That's basically e-sports and, personally, I find it boring. I can't see a point to it. In the game world it's meaningless because it only exists for bragging rights, e-peen, kill scores and leadership boards.
RvR a la DAoC, yes, zergy, is a whole different beast. It so happened that, back in DAoC, I was considered to be one of the "realm leaders" by many people on my server. If I'd put the word out, for a raid, a keep take, whatever, people would come - and quite frequently I've been in the frontiers with an army of everything between 30 to 100 people and more following my command.
That's PvP for me. Getting this thing organised and rolling is a whole game in itself. I'd have a communications officer organising the chat group with the groups and the group leaders, I'd have people with the siege weapons ready, I'd have scouts out in the frontiers trying to monitor the movement of the other realms. I'd have the milegates covered to disrupt reinforcements coming from the other realms. Depending on the situation I might start a mock attack on a foreign keep to try to lure the enemy forces away from the real target. You get the idea. In many of these situations I wouldn't even have a single fight with my character, no time for that, I'd practically only manage a battle situation.
Zergy? Yes, but also pure awesomeness.
I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.
If you all are looking for RvR then look no further or give "Pirates of the Burning Sea". Right now it is Free to play.
This game has it all the the hardcore player or the crafter. Features of note are.
[object Window]
Features of Note:
1. Its easy to sail a ship but hard to master.
2. Group with 5 of your friends and try your had at Pvp.(6 vs 6 sea battles)
3. Take over control of enemy ports with 24 vs 24 port battles
4. Board enemy ships or player ships and try your had at sword fighting
5. All crafted items are needed for building player made ships
[object Window]
If you want a game that will allow you to compete against players that have been playing since day 1 then Pirates of the Burning sea is for you. Sailing is easy but to outmanouver another player take real skill.
potbs, darkfall, eve, mortal online, warhammer...just a few which come to mind.
umm... & what game would that be?
Name me one hardcore PvP game that sold well?
There's only one & it didn't sell very well at 1st. Though, considering that it is alone in its genre, it still doesn't sell well today imo & that is EVE. That is coupled to the fact that the game is really two game in one; Its a space sim, the reason most people are playing it, & an hardcore pvp game, which a limited segment of the game pop actually care about. (but they are very vocal)
Seriously, hardcore pvp MMO selling 800k?! I think you dreamt that one up.
The primary problem is that battles are resolved by "who has more friends?" rather than "who is genuinely more skilled?"
Zerging is terrible gameplay.
Now if you balance populations, like Planetside's 200v200 battles, then you start to see strategy and skill shine through at every single layer of the simulation:
Large-scale military strategy matters for getting the right people in the right place.
Real world morale is actually a factor, because letting your team experience failure caused people to log off in frustration.
Base-level tactics mattered, as you maneuvered your mobile spawn points into good positions and attacked with waves of vehicles.
And lastly, raw FPS twitch skill was a factor in winning each individual battle.
Basically Planetside removed PVE, zerging, and vertical progression, and by cleaning away all the factors that harm meaningful PVP they were left with a fantastically skill-rewarding game.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
WWIIOnline is an other great example for this.
creating and managing a zerg IS a skill. Its a different skill.
You might be the best warrior on the field but it doesnt make you the best general. Two different skills to different focuses, the two can work together in a game and if anyone ever pulls it off good it will be fangrigginstatic.
Darkfall has the basic framework but lacks the community intrested in using it.
oh and p.s. 'zerg' is almost everything when it comes to war scholarship and impementation going back father than Sun Tzu.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
The developement is key here. If one can create pvp where a small group fighting a large group has the winner being either side 50% of the time then zergs aren't an issue. However the smaller group should have to be more organized and skillfull to accomplish this but most would assume the rewards would be much larger.
An obvious example of this is Dark Age of Camelot. Are there zergs? Absolutely. Can you kill zergs with small numbers on a consistent basis? Absolutely. Are there greater rewards for killing a more sizable force with a less sizable one. Definately (<3 bomb groups). It all boils down to tactics, coordination, and leadership. All key elements in general warfare. There are countless instances in history where a smaller force has taken a larger force by using these things which is what PvP is at it's most basic level.
"Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth."
Not at all, not at all, zergs aren't created equal. There are plenty of examples where a smaller zerg has defeated a larger one, thus your statement that zergs come down to numbers only is easily proven wrong.
Sure, if you're in the frontier with a few friends and you happen to run into a zerg with 50 people it's very likely that you'll get a ticket to the bindstone. But then, that's what it should be - after all, it's a wargame and not an arena match.
I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.
Well re-read the post where "can" doesn't mean "consistently can". In the end, zerg-based games are primarily won through amassing friends, secondarily won through gear, and lastly (and occasionally) won through skill.
That's great for people who enjoy that kind of skill-lite gameplay (and many do), but personally I'm a bit of a skill-purist in my PVP games.
The earlier guy had a point about zerg management being a skill but (a) it doesn't compare to how much skill is required to genuinely be good at the game and (b) I'd prefer skill in my games to not be about taking Business Management classes just to organize, motivate, and logistically coordinate the actions of my guild members. Management skill is more a tiny minority at the top being the deciding factors -- PVP that I enjoy makes every player an important factor.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver