I guess my interpretation of fantasy is based around the 11th and 12th century. Just a preference, nothing more.
So I guess there is no full plate armors then? 2 handed sword more or less just got invented and are only carried by plaid wearing barbarians (who seems to like whiskey even though there is a discussion if it existed at the time, earliest proven whiskey was made in the 1320s but it is likely older, maybe a lot older)? Bastard swords does not exist yet and neither does most weapons design to penetrate heavy armors.
Are you sure you knowwhat technology that really existed then? Because most fantasy setting have later stuff.
The only full metal plating a early crusader or 12th century knight wore was a helmet, and in the 11th century they werent even made in one piece but 4 put together.
Almost every single sword is about a meter long, with 1 or 2 edges on. The most common used weapons are however spear and axes.
Not that I don't think that would make a great MMO setting but a full plated knight is as far from that as a early musket. I would love a historical based MMO set in England during hastings, Scotland during the war of independence or Scandinavia in the 10th century. Great things for a setting all of them.
But at least most persons consider knights in plate armor to belong in fantasy and warriors in full plate to belong in any MMO. The gear of most MMO tanks are close to the 16th century landsknechts and they sometimes had guns.
Full plate armors came because of 3 weapons: The longbow, the crossbow and the gun. They did offer protection against them, at least mderatly so. Somewhere in the middle 16th century did guns get good and common enough so that wearing an bulky armor start to get pointless, and the swashbuckling era began. Well, it is really a lot more compliicated than so but I ain't writing that much text here.
This may be off topic, but wasn't the longbow invented because of plate armor and not vice-versa?
1) Guns have about as much use in Fantasy MMO's as technology and mechanical golems do. Oh wait...Asura and Charr are both technologically advanced civilizations that have just those things. >_>;
2) There is a yet unveiled Scout class that will likely focus on Guns. This hasn't been specified by Anet, but really...what else could it be? Daggers and Bows have already been covered, as have axes, warhorns, etc. The only weapon type as yet unfocused on is Guns. The assumption one of the rogue classes will be a gunner of some kind is logical, and also supported by the novels which have liberal use of Guns, especially on specific people (Blimm) who used no other abilities characteristic of the other classes; in fact, both he and another in the first novel used guns alongside alchemical bombs and potions during battle.
3) Guns on warriors are no more 'just for pulling' than bows are. They are perfectly viable choices as main weapons. Check the Anet blogs if you don't believe me. They specifically stated Warriors being very powerful and useful with bows as their main weapon, just as Rangers are powerful with Axes/Swords as their main.
GW2 is trying to break away from traditional molds and do something unique to them and their own storyline/universe. Trying to fit it into the traditional ideals of fantasy MMO is like trying to shove a square peg through a round hole. Just stop.
In regards to #3, it is actually stated on the Warrior page on the GW2 site that guns on Warrior are for pulling or finishing off a fleeing enemy.
"The RIFLE is a single-target ranged weapon that a warrior can use to pull monsters or finish off a fleeing foe."
I guess my interpretation of fantasy is based around the 11th and 12th century. Just a preference, nothing more.
So I guess there is no full plate armors then? 2 handed sword more or less just got invented and are only carried by plaid wearing barbarians (who seems to like whiskey even though there is a discussion if it existed at the time, earliest proven whiskey was made in the 1320s but it is likely older, maybe a lot older)? Bastard swords does not exist yet and neither does most weapons design to penetrate heavy armors.
Are you sure you knowwhat technology that really existed then? Because most fantasy setting have later stuff.
The only full metal plating a early crusader or 12th century knight wore was a helmet, and in the 11th century they werent even made in one piece but 4 put together.
Almost every single sword is about a meter long, with 1 or 2 edges on. The most common used weapons are however spear and axes.
Not that I don't think that would make a great MMO setting but a full plated knight is as far from that as a early musket. I would love a historical based MMO set in England during hastings, Scotland during the war of independence or Scandinavia in the 10th century. Great things for a setting all of them.
But at least most persons consider knights in plate armor to belong in fantasy and warriors in full plate to belong in any MMO. The gear of most MMO tanks are close to the 16th century landsknechts and they sometimes had guns.
Full plate armors came because of 3 weapons: The longbow, the crossbow and the gun. They did offer protection against them, at least mderatly so. Somewhere in the middle 16th century did guns get good and common enough so that wearing an bulky armor start to get pointless, and the swashbuckling era began. Well, it is really a lot more compliicated than so but I ain't writing that much text here.
This may be off topic, but wasn't the longbow invented because of plate armor and not vice-versa?
Longbows were already used before full plated armors in infantry and cavalry, so I guess hes right
"It has potential" -Second most used phrase on existence "It sucks" -Most used phrase on existence
1) Guns have about as much use in Fantasy MMO's as technology and mechanical golems do. Oh wait...Asura and Charr are both technologically advanced civilizations that have just those things. >_>;
2) There is a yet unveiled Scout class that will likely focus on Guns. This hasn't been specified by Anet, but really...what else could it be? Daggers and Bows have already been covered, as have axes, warhorns, etc. The only weapon type as yet unfocused on is Guns. The assumption one of the rogue classes will be a gunner of some kind is logical, and also supported by the novels which have liberal use of Guns, especially on specific people (Blimm) who used no other abilities characteristic of the other classes; in fact, both he and another in the first novel used guns alongside alchemical bombs and potions during battle.
3) Guns on warriors are no more 'just for pulling' than bows are. They are perfectly viable choices as main weapons. Check the Anet blogs if you don't believe me. They specifically stated Warriors being very powerful and useful with bows as their main weapon, just as Rangers are powerful with Axes/Swords as their main.
GW2 is trying to break away from traditional molds and do something unique to them and their own storyline/universe. Trying to fit it into the traditional ideals of fantasy MMO is like trying to shove a square peg through a round hole. Just stop.
In regards to #3, it is actually stated on the Warrior page on the GW2 site that guns on Warrior are for pulling or finishing off a fleeing enemy.
"The RIFLE is a single-target ranged weapon that a warrior can use to pull monsters or finish off a fleeing foe."
I guess my interpretation of fantasy is based around the 11th and 12th century. Just a preference, nothing more.
So I guess there is no full plate armors then? 2 handed sword more or less just got invented and are only carried by plaid wearing barbarians (who seems to like whiskey even though there is a discussion if it existed at the time, earliest proven whiskey was made in the 1320s but it is likely older, maybe a lot older)? Bastard swords does not exist yet and neither does most weapons design to penetrate heavy armors.
Are you sure you knowwhat technology that really existed then? Because most fantasy setting have later stuff.
The only full metal plating a early crusader or 12th century knight wore was a helmet, and in the 11th century they werent even made in one piece but 4 put together.
Almost every single sword is about a meter long, with 1 or 2 edges on. The most common used weapons are however spear and axes.
Not that I don't think that would make a great MMO setting but a full plated knight is as far from that as a early musket. I would love a historical based MMO set in England during hastings, Scotland during the war of independence or Scandinavia in the 10th century. Great things for a setting all of them.
But at least most persons consider knights in plate armor to belong in fantasy and warriors in full plate to belong in any MMO. The gear of most MMO tanks are close to the 16th century landsknechts and they sometimes had guns.
Full plate armors came because of 3 weapons: The longbow, the crossbow and the gun. They did offer protection against them, at least mderatly so. Somewhere in the middle 16th century did guns get good and common enough so that wearing an bulky armor start to get pointless, and the swashbuckling era began. Well, it is really a lot more compliicated than so but I ain't writing that much text here.
This may be off topic, but wasn't the longbow invented because of plate armor and not vice-versa?
Longbows were already used before full plated armors in infantry and cavalry, so I guess hes right
Oh. I always thought that they were invented because regular bows were simply not powerful to pierce plate mail.
Oh. I always thought that they were invented because regular bows were simply not powerful to pierce plate mail.
No, but a regular bow have problem already with earlier armors as well. Long bows increased range and armor penetrations. They probably comes from Wales/Cymru in the 13th century.
The use of better weapons forced better armors and the other way around. Most 2 handed swords were made after plate armor appeared, except the claymore that was invented to make it possible for a few for footsoldiers to defeat mounted fighters. With a lot spears and pikes are effective but with claymores you can spread out pretty wide... There is of course a lot more to claymores as well.
Even today handguns an bullet proof vests compete with eachother. That is the reason we dont use spears amd leather hide in battle anymore.
Most game devs and artists who make MMOs have never hold a real sworrd in their hand or worn a real armor and they have no clue why certain weapons can't exist without a piece of armor or the other way around. But things work so like in a dance.
With no chainmail any sword longer than a gladius wont have a pointy end. It is to penetrate armours harder than leather.
With no heavy ranged weapon there is no real need of a plate armor.
When most warriors have at least one pistol that will go through your full plate like butter it is smarter to have a lighter armor (unless you are a Polish noble).
It's true that the page says so, however Anet also stated that for a while ranged Warriors were meta in PvP so maybe the gun was originally conceived as a weapon to pull and finish off enemies, that is not all it can do.
I haven't read the entire thread so I don't know if any one mentioned it, put there are pistols in the game but as yet no profession capable of using them has been revealed.
Anet said guns would have a twist, I don't believe that twist has been revealed yet. GW2 is a world which mixes magic and technology so don't expect GW2 guns to work like real world guns.
Oh. I always thought that they were invented because regular bows were simply not powerful to pierce plate mail.
No, but a regular bow have problem already with earlier armors as well. Long bows increased range and armor penetrations. They probably comes from Wales/Cymru in the 13th century.
The use of better weapons forced better armors and the other way around. Most 2 handed swords were made after plate armor appeared, except the claymore that was invented to make it possible for a few for footsoldiers to defeat mounted fighters. With a lot spears and pikes are effective but with claymores you can spread out pretty wide... There is of course a lot more to claymores as well.
Even today handguns an bullet proof vests compete with eachother. That is the reason we dont use spears amd leather hide in battle anymore.
Most game devs and artists who make MMOs have never hold a real sworrd in their hand or worn a real armor and they have no clue why certain weapons can't exist without a piece of armor or the other way around. But things work so like in a dance.
With no chainmail any sword longer than a gladius wont have a pointy end. It is to penetrate armours harder than leather.
With no heavy ranged weapon there is no real need of a plate armor.
When most warriors have at least one pistol that will go through your full plate like butter it is smarter to have a lighter armor (unless you are a Polish noble).
And so on.
Damn dude.. im impressed by your extent of knowledge on this subject.. most people i see just kinda talk out their ass. *claps*
Just as most people see REAL plate armor as a poslihes plate of steal that just covers your body.. most people dont realize that most knights wore clothing, a layer of cloth stuffed padding, then a layer of leather or chain mail to protect the vunerable joints in the armor. then the plate armor.. or the fact that it restricts movement so much that its hard to do more than weild the weapon you were trained to use...
Oh.. and have you ever tried to wield a real claymore?? They are heavy.. bulky.. and took alot of strength just to move those weapons.. i own one (not the decorative junk).. Lets just say that the average person wouldent be able to hold the thing upright.. let alone swing it..
Anyway, to add to what you were saying:
Leather armor was invented for protection against early swords. A thick layer of leather basicly renderd a basic slash from a sword edge (before they were pointed), It alse held a heavy resistance to weather and terrain, while being light and protective at the time it was ideal for combat or simple travel threw cold/rockery terrain. As wars continued on small pices of metal were added.. otherwise known as studs to 'deflect' more advanced types of harm.
Mail was invented later on by the celts. It was made to protect against most known weapons at the time. Spears/axes/swords and other advancements in weaponry. They one vunerablility to early mail was blunt damge.. which is why son after its creation warriors padded them self with stuff cloth, not only so the links wouldent bother their skin, but so when hit by weapons like a mace it wouldent cause as much damage.
Then plate armor was created.. but shuned later by alot of 'warriors' when the full plate versaion was made,because of its restrictions. A full palte suit provided heavy defence against almost all incomeing attacks, and only few spots were vunerable for some real damge. It also sovled mails problem because sharp heavy points were most likely not going to penetrate the armor, and blunt weaponry could only dent the armor by the stronger men.. which even then didnt caouse the internal damage that otherwise would be brought without the advantage of plate armor.
Oh, fyi.. not all plate armor was the pretty shiny version you see in games or even in some of the 'armor suits' you see people selling/owning.. They wre down right ugly as sin. Alot of plate armor had a exagerated V in the front to have projectiles and incomeing melee blows clance off.
Rangers don't get the ability to use guns...what's up with that?
Pretty funny.
Complaing about Rangers not getting guns, while Warriors can use guns AND bows, lol. Good stuff.
In their defense, in many MMO warriors get to use almost EVERY weapon that you would think other classes should be able to use but don't. This is nothing new.
By the way and speaking of guns, a nice looking Charr gun. Looks like they could beat you to death with it instead of just shooting you.
I guess my interpretation of fantasy is based around the 11th and 12th century. Just a preference, nothing more.
So I guess there is no full plate armors then? 2 handed sword more or less just got invented and are only carried by plaid wearing barbarians (who seems to like whiskey even though there is a discussion if it existed at the time, earliest proven whiskey was made in the 1320s but it is likely older, maybe a lot older)? Bastard swords does not exist yet and neither does most weapons design to penetrate heavy armors.
Are you sure you knowwhat technology that really existed then? Because most fantasy setting have later stuff.
The only full metal plating a early crusader or 12th century knight wore was a helmet, and in the 11th century they werent even made in one piece but 4 put together.
Almost every single sword is about a meter long, with 1 or 2 edges on. The most common used weapons are however spear and axes.
Not that I don't think that would make a great MMO setting but a full plated knight is as far from that as a early musket. I would love a historical based MMO set in England during hastings, Scotland during the war of independence or Scandinavia in the 10th century. Great things for a setting all of them.
But at least most persons consider knights in plate armor to belong in fantasy and warriors in full plate to belong in any MMO. The gear of most MMO tanks are close to the 16th century landsknechts and they sometimes had guns.
Full plate armors came because of 3 weapons: The longbow, the crossbow and the gun. They did offer protection against them, at least mderatly so. Somewhere in the middle 16th century did guns get good and common enough so that wearing an bulky armor start to get pointless, and the swashbuckling era began. Well, it is really a lot more compliicated than so but I ain't writing that much text here.
This may be off topic, but wasn't the longbow invented because of plate armor and not vice-versa?
Longbows were already used before full plated armors in infantry and cavalry, so I guess hes right
Longbows were around before full plate and such, English Longbows were the big ones with the best range and (for want of a better word) penetration. Once plate armour and heavier defences came about in order to try and counter the longbows thats when crossbows were invented, much shorter range but far superior penetration.
I guess my interpretation of fantasy is based around the 11th and 12th century. Just a preference, nothing more.
So I guess there is no full plate armors then? 2 handed sword more or less just got invented and are only carried by plaid wearing barbarians (who seems to like whiskey even though there is a discussion if it existed at the time, earliest proven whiskey was made in the 1320s but it is likely older, maybe a lot older)? Bastard swords does not exist yet and neither does most weapons design to penetrate heavy armors.
Are you sure you knowwhat technology that really existed then? Because most fantasy setting have later stuff.
The only full metal plating a early crusader or 12th century knight wore was a helmet, and in the 11th century they werent even made in one piece but 4 put together.
Almost every single sword is about a meter long, with 1 or 2 edges on. The most common used weapons are however spear and axes.
Not that I don't think that would make a great MMO setting but a full plated knight is as far from that as a early musket. I would love a historical based MMO set in England during hastings, Scotland during the war of independence or Scandinavia in the 10th century. Great things for a setting all of them.
But at least most persons consider knights in plate armor to belong in fantasy and warriors in full plate to belong in any MMO. The gear of most MMO tanks are close to the 16th century landsknechts and they sometimes had guns.
Full plate armors came because of 3 weapons: The longbow, the crossbow and the gun. They did offer protection against them, at least mderatly so. Somewhere in the middle 16th century did guns get good and common enough so that wearing an bulky armor start to get pointless, and the swashbuckling era began. Well, it is really a lot more compliicated than so but I ain't writing that much text here.
This may be off topic, but wasn't the longbow invented because of plate armor and not vice-versa?
Longbows were already used before full plated armors in infantry and cavalry, so I guess hes right
Longbows were around before full plate and such, English Longbows were the big ones with the best range and (for want of a better word) penetration. Once plate armour and heavier defences came about in order to try and counter the longbows thats when crossbows were invented, much shorter range but far superior penetration.
Not really heh (love these kinds of discussions )
Crossbows were in use waaay before the longbow appeared (Romans used them extensively, and, along with chinese even had multiple shot ones, equivalents to modern day machine guns).
What these discussions constantly miss out is the economics of weapons.. which is a very important factor in their historical roles. The economics (or cost) can be further categorized into the cost of the weapon itself and the cost of training the soldier to use it.
For example, before the battle od Crecy where the Longbow made first appearance, it was basically considered an "exotic" weapon that only a few crazy woodsmen were able to use due to extremely heavy pull and thus completely impractical for substantial war use. The english long thought on how to beat the massed norman knight charge that the french relied so heavily on. They decided to have a go with the longbow with its long range and sufficient penetrating power and secretly trained peasants and woodsmen specially selected for their natural strength and contitution over a period of several years to develop the additional strength needed to use such an impractical weapon. The battle itself was very telling - the french first sent the Genoese (italian) crossbowmen to engage with english bowmen and infantry to soften them up. However the longbow's superior range started massacring the genoese waay before they had a chance to fire. They, naturally, began to retreat not wanting to get killed pointlessly. This enraged the french who considered the italians nothing more than shifty cowards and they started the tragic charge which first got bogged down in attempting to cut through the fleeing genoese (essentially massacring their own allies and all the time under fire by the longbowmen) and later by trying to climb the marshy hill the english were smart enough to use for their position. After the battle all the trained longbow users were forbidden to leave the country on the pain of death - they were considered property of the state, with too valuable skills and knowledge to go on open market.
Longbow is one such high cost weapon and so is the mongol recurve composite bow which was, even at half the length of the longbow and thus usable from horseback, quite capable of penetrating most western armors up to an including (with a bit of luck) full plate. However while the longbow itself is quite cheap and it is the training of the personnel using it that makes it so expensive, the mongol bow was both expensive to make, requiring special skills and materials not found outside central asia AND it required a lifetime of training to use effectively - basically you had to be BORN into the bow-horseman culture and learn to ride before you can walk to be able to make use of it.
Firearms, contrary to popular belief, did not bring either superior penetration nor greater range or precision. In fact until the advent of rifling firearms they were inferior to other estabilished ranged weapons on all counts except one - the cost of training the personnel. You could take any old farm joe, give him the old musket and after a day or two you could have have a brand new soldier capable of making an impression on the battlefield - a thing unheard of before. A knight had to be trained from his childhood for example, the guy with the sword had to be trained for a year or two to be able to use it. But now you could have massed ranged volleys for a very very very low cost. It didn't matter if shot-for-shot a musket was inferior to longbows or crossbows even but you could have 20 or more of these for the cost of one longbowman that you had to spend years and years of preparation and training for. It didn't matter if the guys couldn't hit anything, even if they were trained it would be pointless since those early weapons were so imprecise - it was the low-cost massed volley that finally brought the age of knights to close. And along with the knights the longbowmen faded as well too - they were simply too expensive to train and maintain.
I find it weird that people dont want/like/expect guns in GW2. Its been over 200 years dude. You expect them to have the same old junk after 200 years? If that were the case they'd all be ponding rocks together naked.
I'm 99% sure there wont be a fist fighting class for me, so I'll most likely end up using a class that mainly uses pistols.
I guess my interpretation of fantasy is based around the 11th and 12th century. Just a preference, nothing more.
So I guess there is no full plate armors then? 2 handed sword more or less just got invented and are only carried by plaid wearing barbarians (who seems to like whiskey even though there is a discussion if it existed at the time, earliest proven whiskey was made in the 1320s but it is likely older, maybe a lot older)? Bastard swords does not exist yet and neither does most weapons design to penetrate heavy armors.
Are you sure you knowwhat technology that really existed then? Because most fantasy setting have later stuff.
The only full metal plating a early crusader or 12th century knight wore was a helmet, and in the 11th century they werent even made in one piece but 4 put together.
Almost every single sword is about a meter long, with 1 or 2 edges on. The most common used weapons are however spear and axes.
Not that I don't think that would make a great MMO setting but a full plated knight is as far from that as a early musket. I would love a historical based MMO set in England during hastings, Scotland during the war of independence or Scandinavia in the 10th century. Great things for a setting all of them.
But at least most persons consider knights in plate armor to belong in fantasy and warriors in full plate to belong in any MMO. The gear of most MMO tanks are close to the 16th century landsknechts and they sometimes had guns.
Full plate armors came because of 3 weapons: The longbow, the crossbow and the gun. They did offer protection against them, at least mderatly so. Somewhere in the middle 16th century did guns get good and common enough so that wearing an bulky armor start to get pointless, and the swashbuckling era began. Well, it is really a lot more compliicated than so but I ain't writing that much text here.
This may be off topic, but wasn't the longbow invented because of plate armor and not vice-versa?
Longbows were already used before full plated armors in infantry and cavalry, so I guess hes right
Longbows were around before full plate and such, English Longbows were the big ones with the best range and (for want of a better word) penetration. Once plate armour and heavier defences came about in order to try and counter the longbows thats when crossbows were invented, much shorter range but far superior penetration.
Not really heh (love these kinds of discussions )
Crossbows were in use waaay before the longbow appeared (Romans used them extensively, and, along with chinese even had multiple shot ones, equivalents to modern day machine guns).
What these discussions constantly miss out is the economics of weapons.. which is a very important factor in their historical roles. The economics (or cost) can be further categorized into the cost of the weapon itself and the cost of training the soldier to use it.
For example, before the battle od Crecy where the Longbow made first appearance, it was basically considered an "exotic" weapon that only a few crazy woodsmen were able to use due to extremely heavy pull and thus completely impractical for substantial war use. The english long thought on how to beat the massed norman knight charge that the french relied so heavily on. They decided to have a go with the longbow with its long range and sufficient penetrating power and secretly trained peasants and woodsmen specially selected for their natural strength and contitution over a period of several years to develop the additional strength needed to use such an impractical weapon. The battle itself was very telling - the french first sent the Genoese (italian) crossbowmen to engage with english bowmen and infantry to soften them up. However the longbow's superior range started massacring the genoese waay before they had a chance to fire. They, naturally, began to retreat not wanting to get killed pointlessly. This enraged the french who considered the italians nothing more than shifty cowards and they started the tragic charge which first got bogged down in attempting to cut through the fleeing genoese (essentially massacring their own allies and all the time under fire by the longbowmen) and later by trying to climb the marshy hill the english were smart enough to use for their position. After the battle all the trained longbow users were forbidden to leave the country on the pain of death - they were considered property of the state, with too valuable skills and knowledge to go on open market.
Longbow is one such high cost weapon and so is the mongol recurve composite bow which was, even at half the length of the longbow and thus usable from horseback, quite capable of penetrating most western armors up to an including (with a bit of luck) full plate. However while the longbow itself is quite cheap and it is the training of the personnel using it that makes it so expensive, the mongol bow was both expensive to make, requiring special skills and materials not found outside central asia AND it required a lifetime of training to use effectively - basically you had to be BORN into the bow-horseman culture and learn to ride before you can walk to be able to make use of it.
Firearms, contrary to popular belief, did not bring either superior penetration nor greater range or precision. In fact until the advent of rifling firearms they were inferior to other estabilished ranged weapons on all counts except one - the cost of training the personnel. You could take any old farm joe, give him the old musket and after a day or two you could have have a brand new soldier capable of making an impression on the battlefield - a thing unheard of before. A knight had to be trained from his childhood for example, the guy with the sword had to be trained for a year or two to be able to use it. But now you could have massed ranged volleys for a very very very low cost. It didn't matter if shot-for-shot a musket was inferior to longbows or crossbows even but you could have 20 or more of these for the cost of one longbowman that you had to spend years and years of preparation and training for. It didn't matter if the guys couldn't hit anything, even if they were trained it would be pointless since those early weapons were so imprecise - it was the low-cost massed volley that finally brought the age of knights to close. And along with the knights the longbowmen faded as well too - they were simply too expensive to train and maintain.
Thank you for that.. was actualy a very good post.. im begining to love this thread lol.
I do love reading a solid medieval history discussion.
In terms of guns, as long as they fall within the "blunderbus" class of guns, they don't affect my overall immersion factor given the prevailing setting of the game. If someone is walking around with a 9mm or a sniper rifle, I have a bit of a problem with that.
Based on some of the concept art I've seen, I don't expect to have any concerns. I think a gunslinger class would be a lot of fun and could offer a new playstyle within GW2 (maybe using bullets with different elements and/or status affects).
I learn something new everyday... thanks Pilnkplonk. Shame my history lessons on the period mostly focused on the boring monarchs and not on battle logitistic and other warfare related topics that I find interesting.
Comments
This may be off topic, but wasn't the longbow invented because of plate armor and not vice-versa?
In regards to #3, it is actually stated on the Warrior page on the GW2 site that guns on Warrior are for pulling or finishing off a fleeing enemy.
"The RIFLE is a single-target ranged weapon that a warrior can use to pull monsters or finish off a fleeing foe."
http://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/professions/warrior/
Longbows were already used before full plated armors in infantry and cavalry, so I guess hes right
"It has potential"
-Second most used phrase on existence
"It sucks"
-Most used phrase on existence
Rifles are not purely for pulling or finishing off enemies.
Oh. I always thought that they were invented because regular bows were simply not powerful to pierce plate mail.
No, but a regular bow have problem already with earlier armors as well. Long bows increased range and armor penetrations. They probably comes from Wales/Cymru in the 13th century.
The use of better weapons forced better armors and the other way around. Most 2 handed swords were made after plate armor appeared, except the claymore that was invented to make it possible for a few for footsoldiers to defeat mounted fighters. With a lot spears and pikes are effective but with claymores you can spread out pretty wide... There is of course a lot more to claymores as well.
Even today handguns an bullet proof vests compete with eachother. That is the reason we dont use spears amd leather hide in battle anymore.
Most game devs and artists who make MMOs have never hold a real sworrd in their hand or worn a real armor and they have no clue why certain weapons can't exist without a piece of armor or the other way around. But things work so like in a dance.
With no chainmail any sword longer than a gladius wont have a pointy end. It is to penetrate armours harder than leather.
With no heavy ranged weapon there is no real need of a plate armor.
When most warriors have at least one pistol that will go through your full plate like butter it is smarter to have a lighter armor (unless you are a Polish noble).
And so on.
It's true that the page says so, however Anet also stated that for a while ranged Warriors were meta in PvP so maybe the gun was originally conceived as a weapon to pull and finish off enemies, that is not all it can do.
I haven't read the entire thread so I don't know if any one mentioned it, put there are pistols in the game but as yet no profession capable of using them has been revealed.
Anet said guns would have a twist, I don't believe that twist has been revealed yet. GW2 is a world which mixes magic and technology so don't expect GW2 guns to work like real world guns.
Damn dude.. im impressed by your extent of knowledge on this subject.. most people i see just kinda talk out their ass. *claps*
Just as most people see REAL plate armor as a poslihes plate of steal that just covers your body.. most people dont realize that most knights wore clothing, a layer of cloth stuffed padding, then a layer of leather or chain mail to protect the vunerable joints in the armor. then the plate armor.. or the fact that it restricts movement so much that its hard to do more than weild the weapon you were trained to use...
Oh.. and have you ever tried to wield a real claymore?? They are heavy.. bulky.. and took alot of strength just to move those weapons.. i own one (not the decorative junk).. Lets just say that the average person wouldent be able to hold the thing upright.. let alone swing it..
Anyway, to add to what you were saying:
Leather armor was invented for protection against early swords. A thick layer of leather basicly renderd a basic slash from a sword edge (before they were pointed), It alse held a heavy resistance to weather and terrain, while being light and protective at the time it was ideal for combat or simple travel threw cold/rockery terrain. As wars continued on small pices of metal were added.. otherwise known as studs to 'deflect' more advanced types of harm.
Mail was invented later on by the celts. It was made to protect against most known weapons at the time. Spears/axes/swords and other advancements in weaponry. They one vunerablility to early mail was blunt damge.. which is why son after its creation warriors padded them self with stuff cloth, not only so the links wouldent bother their skin, but so when hit by weapons like a mace it wouldent cause as much damage.
Then plate armor was created.. but shuned later by alot of 'warriors' when the full plate versaion was made,because of its restrictions. A full palte suit provided heavy defence against almost all incomeing attacks, and only few spots were vunerable for some real damge. It also sovled mails problem because sharp heavy points were most likely not going to penetrate the armor, and blunt weaponry could only dent the armor by the stronger men.. which even then didnt caouse the internal damage that otherwise would be brought without the advantage of plate armor.
Oh, fyi.. not all plate armor was the pretty shiny version you see in games or even in some of the 'armor suits' you see people selling/owning.. They wre down right ugly as sin. Alot of plate armor had a exagerated V in the front to have projectiles and incomeing melee blows clance off.
Anyway im done now.. enjoy my typo filled post
It may have been typo-filled, but it was quite the interesting read.
Actually, that gun looks retarded.
Longbows were around before full plate and such, English Longbows were the big ones with the best range and (for want of a better word) penetration. Once plate armour and heavier defences came about in order to try and counter the longbows thats when crossbows were invented, much shorter range but far superior penetration.
Not really heh (love these kinds of discussions
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Crossbows were in use waaay before the longbow appeared (Romans used them extensively, and, along with chinese even had multiple shot ones, equivalents to modern day machine guns).
What these discussions constantly miss out is the economics of weapons.. which is a very important factor in their historical roles. The economics (or cost) can be further categorized into the cost of the weapon itself and the cost of training the soldier to use it.
For example, before the battle od Crecy where the Longbow made first appearance, it was basically considered an "exotic" weapon that only a few crazy woodsmen were able to use due to extremely heavy pull and thus completely impractical for substantial war use. The english long thought on how to beat the massed norman knight charge that the french relied so heavily on. They decided to have a go with the longbow with its long range and sufficient penetrating power and secretly trained peasants and woodsmen specially selected for their natural strength and contitution over a period of several years to develop the additional strength needed to use such an impractical weapon. The battle itself was very telling - the french first sent the Genoese (italian) crossbowmen to engage with english bowmen and infantry to soften them up. However the longbow's superior range started massacring the genoese waay before they had a chance to fire. They, naturally, began to retreat not wanting to get killed pointlessly. This enraged the french who considered the italians nothing more than shifty cowards and they started the tragic charge which first got bogged down in attempting to cut through the fleeing genoese (essentially massacring their own allies and all the time under fire by the longbowmen) and later by trying to climb the marshy hill the english were smart enough to use for their position. After the battle all the trained longbow users were forbidden to leave the country on the pain of death - they were considered property of the state, with too valuable skills and knowledge to go on open market.
Longbow is one such high cost weapon and so is the mongol recurve composite bow which was, even at half the length of the longbow and thus usable from horseback, quite capable of penetrating most western armors up to an including (with a bit of luck) full plate. However while the longbow itself is quite cheap and it is the training of the personnel using it that makes it so expensive, the mongol bow was both expensive to make, requiring special skills and materials not found outside central asia AND it required a lifetime of training to use effectively - basically you had to be BORN into the bow-horseman culture and learn to ride before you can walk to be able to make use of it.
Firearms, contrary to popular belief, did not bring either superior penetration nor greater range or precision. In fact until the advent of rifling firearms they were inferior to other estabilished ranged weapons on all counts except one - the cost of training the personnel. You could take any old farm joe, give him the old musket and after a day or two you could have have a brand new soldier capable of making an impression on the battlefield - a thing unheard of before. A knight had to be trained from his childhood for example, the guy with the sword had to be trained for a year or two to be able to use it. But now you could have massed ranged volleys for a very very very low cost. It didn't matter if shot-for-shot a musket was inferior to longbows or crossbows even but you could have 20 or more of these for the cost of one longbowman that you had to spend years and years of preparation and training for. It didn't matter if the guys couldn't hit anything, even if they were trained it would be pointless since those early weapons were so imprecise - it was the low-cost massed volley that finally brought the age of knights to close. And along with the knights the longbowmen faded as well too - they were simply too expensive to train and maintain.
I find it weird that people dont want/like/expect guns in GW2. Its been over 200 years dude. You expect them to have the same old junk after 200 years? If that were the case they'd all be ponding rocks together naked.
I'm 99% sure there wont be a fist fighting class for me, so I'll most likely end up using a class that mainly uses pistols.
Thank you for that.. was actualy a very good post.. im begining to love this thread lol.
I do love reading a solid medieval history discussion.
In terms of guns, as long as they fall within the "blunderbus" class of guns, they don't affect my overall immersion factor given the prevailing setting of the game. If someone is walking around with a 9mm or a sniper rifle, I have a bit of a problem with that.
Based on some of the concept art I've seen, I don't expect to have any concerns. I think a gunslinger class would be a lot of fun and could offer a new playstyle within GW2 (maybe using bullets with different elements and/or status affects).
I learn something new everyday... thanks Pilnkplonk. Shame my history lessons on the period mostly focused on the boring monarchs and not on battle logitistic and other warfare related topics that I find interesting.