Whether or not games had phasing before WoW is in my mind not really important, my biggest gripe is why anyone would want phasing in an MMO?
For me the feeling of being in a "real" world is what drives me to an mmo, the feeling that i'm a living breathing character in this world and i have an impact on this world (be it good/negative for me and others) and the world has an impact on my character.
The inclusion of phasing in mmo's is for me a step away from this, it removes me from an persistent world. The world is no longer a single world with players in it, but a different world for everyone in it, if they are not at the same step of a quest chain.
That sais i'm not against WoW using the technology to their own use, they have long ago removed all resemblance of a persistent world anyway.
As others have stated the techonology is nothing new, and the comparision with the stealthed rogue is sound, although it may be a bit more complicated. it basically boils down to the server telling the client which "phase" to render/show and then again draw the things in that "phase" it is no different to the client as rendering the world as it was before phasing.
Take the example with the sunken landmass. Client A has completed this chain, Client B has not. Once both come close enough to see this the server tells Client A to render "Phase B (the one with the sunken landmass" and Client "B" to render "Phase A (without the sunken landmass)" it then checks whether Client A and B can see each other, if they can and Client A & B is somewhere that their current phase wouldn't allow them to see each other it tells the client not to draw them.
This is not all that different than the rogue going stealth, albeit on a bigger scale.
Didn't read the entire thread, but just came to say phasing is probably the most horrible thing introduced into the MMORPG market since casual playstyles. What is the point of not being in a zone with everyone else, it's bad enough no one gives incentives for grouping anymore. Destroying the ability to SEE other people, you might as well just play offline.
I've said my piece in this thread. But i wanted to comment on this little tidbit.
I consider this both sad and pathetic that a player thats been playing as long as you have Axehilt thinks that is a good thing.
I honestly don't know if you just go out of your way to troll anymore because thats probably the saddest thing ive seen someone write on this forum in a while.
I tried to do everything against what quest says,i tried to kill questgiver,all good guys cos i felt like i wanna be a bad guy now,i tried every possible way to get some phasing going as i wanted to,but no,I couldnt change a thing.so i had to follow the script like everybody else,RPG in its best.
I've said my piece in this thread. But i wanted to comment on this little tidbit.
I consider this both sad and pathetic that a player thats been playing as long as you have Axehilt thinks that is a good thing.
I honestly don't know if you just go out of your way to troll anymore because thats probably the saddest thing ive seen someone write on this forum in a while.
Honestly I don't see how someone can watch the market so long and not see it:
Simulations have always undersold Games, throughout all of videogaming.
Sandboxes are Simulations.
Themeparks are Games.
Blizzard makes Games.
Players play, and want Games.
The way that World Content and Dungeons are organized in WOW currently makes for a superior Game compared to what we've seen in other MMORPGs. Are there better ways to do it? Absolutely. If companies want to do well (not beat Blizzard, but do well) they need to discover those ways and start building up a company and fanbase.
(or if you're already big like Bioware you already have a company and fanbase and you're ready to potentially *really* compete with WOW.)
And if you like Simulations:
Realize you're in a minority. Expect minority-funded games. Seek these niche products (because they won't be made with companies with huge marketing budgets.)
Also realize that by definition Hardcore MMOs are inherently going to slip away, as a combination of the above factors. This doesn't mean there won't be things to do for hardcore players, but that MMOs with huge barriers to entry (barriers to learn how to play) will certainly not be common.
...or learn to enjoy Game games.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I've said my piece in this thread. But i wanted to comment on this little tidbit.
I consider this both sad and pathetic that a player thats been playing as long as you have Axehilt thinks that is a good thing.
I honestly don't know if you just go out of your way to troll anymore because thats probably the saddest thing ive seen someone write on this forum in a while.
Honestly I don't see how someone can watch the market so long and not see it:
Simulations have always undersold Games, throughout all of videogaming.
Sandboxes are Simulations.
Themeparks are Games.
Blizzard makes Games.
Players play, and want Games.
The way that World Content and Dungeons are organized in WOW currently makes for a superior Game compared to what we've seen in other MMORPGs. Are there better ways to do it? Absolutely. If companies want to do well (not beat Blizzard, but do well) they need to discover those ways and start building up a company and fanbase.
(or if you're already big like Bioware you already have a company and fanbase and you're ready to potentially *really* compete with WOW.)
And if you like Simulations:
Realize you're in a minority. Expect minority-funded games. Seek these niche products (because they won't be made with companies with huge marketing budgets.)
Also realize that by definition Hardcore MMOs are inherently going to slip away, as a combination of the above factors. This doesn't mean there won't be things to do for hardcore players, but that MMOs with huge barriers to entry (barriers to learn how to play) will certainly not be common.
...or learn to enjoy Game games.
all they need to do is remove those 3 letters from their games R and P and G,and MMORPG scene is cured.
all they need to do is remove those 3 letters from their games R and P and G,and MMORPG scene is cured.
You're mistaken.
For 25+ years videogame RPGs have been what MMORPGs are. Story and character progression and offloading the weight of player skill onto character stats.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Didn't read the entire thread, but just came to say phasing is probably the most horrible thing introduced into the MMORPG market since casual playstyles. What is the point of not being in a zone with everyone else, it's bad enough no one gives incentives for grouping anymore. Destroying the ability to SEE other people, you might as well just play offline.
What is the point of seeing EVERYONE in the zone? You are not going to interact with all of them anyway. If the game has enough players, and WOW certainly fits that description, than there will be enough players to see in the same phase.
That is a price worth paying for better stories & quest progressions.
I have played through many L80-85 quest lines (obviously phasing was used in many of them) and there are always many others around. In fact, slow spawn rate and kill stealing is more of an issue than not seeing anyone.
Plus, there is nothing wrong with not seeing a lot of people all the time. MMO does not need that 24/7. There are populous places and there are less populous places. I don't want ALL of my MMO zones look like a mall on black friday everywhere.
Originally posted by Iselin Phasing IS a pretty cool innovation that solves the age old MMO problem... "Hey I just killed you like 2 minutes ago... wtf are you doing back up?" "I'm waiting for the next player to come kill me...again. Now go away and ignore me." That was never a "problem"; respawns were kind of cool and kept folks on their toes as they typed, talked, and waited for the next mob to pop. What phasing does is make that person you are standing next to disappear until they complete some quest chain and catch up to you. That IS a problem. Mind you, a better solution is whoever kills that npc first is the only one in your server that gets to do it... a true, changing, evolving world... how would you like that? A better solution is to keep MMO design largely grounded upon pre-Luclin EQ and DAOC principles, and focus on polishing gameplay and graphics. The games of 1999 - 2001 mostly had it right; just better graphics and UI and more streamlined gameplay was needed. Phasing is, to me, a negative. If I ever read about an upcoming game talking about use of phasing or how it has a "great storyline", it will be /pass
Phasing is all about a better way to develop the story for you...or your group if you're doing the quest chain grouped. The fact that other random people nearby don't come with you into the new phase is at worst, irrelevant and actually a good thing because it does away with the silly competition to tag the mob first in crowded areas.
This is neither a "grouping is good, soloing is bad" nor "open world is good, instances are bad" thread. Phasing is about a better story-telling device that creates the illusion that your actions are world-changing and as such, they are effective.
It also sounds to me like your recollection of the glory days of MMOs is being remembered through rosy distortion filters. I was there just as well and there were many things that sucked: kill stealing, incredibly long waits for the spawn you needed--especially in dungeons, a trading system that relied on both traders being honest since someone had to "go first," no mail system, no easy way to trade your crafted items, etc... thanks but no thanks.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
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I actually don't think phasing will last the MMO scene outside of WoW. I think systems like Guild Wars 2's Dynamic events, WAR's public quests, etc is the future. Public questing that breakes down the barriers of grouping and creates social interaction with the community while changing the world for everyone. MMO's that push in the single player direction will die out because I can already go and pick up anyone of the great single player RPG's off the shelf right now which will give me the best of that kind of experience, with Co-Op play. I personally never enjoyed phasing, I actually only enjoyed it once and that was when I did the DK starting quests. Guild Wars already did things similar to it and Anet is moving on to new things because the game mechanic is archaic and dead.
I actually don't think phasing will last the MMO scene outside of WoW. I think systems like Guild Wars 2's Dynamic events, WAR's public quests, etc is the future. Public questing that breakes down the barriers of grouping and creates social interaction with the community while changing the world for everyone. MMO's that push in the single player direction will die out because I can already go and pick up anyone of the great single player RPG's off the shelf right now which will give me the best of that kind of experience, with Co-Op play. I personally never enjoyed phasing, I actually only enjoyed it once and that was when I did the DK starting quests. Guild Wars already did things similar to it and Anet is moving on to new things because the game mechanic is archaic and dead.
There is another reason why phasing will not be easely copied: it is too expensive to develop.
But I will watch the reaction of the noob people when they did the phased questing in Cata ... and then will no longer find these changed realities in the other newer games.
You see the problem again is : ....
Once people get spoiled by a non instanced but world story telling feature, there is no "cheap" way going back.
I look at the cramptastic efforts made by a few in this thread to downplay it.
But you see that's the core problem this "industry" has with Blizzard: follow or get steamrolled.
People no longer accept the non responsive combat, the non seamless worlds, the mindless long leveling by killing mobs and ridiculous waiting time before a screen. All that is behind us - forever.
The next step is that they no longer accept non changing worlds according to what the INDIVIDUAL avatar did in his adventures. GOOD Video games are played for the individual amusement, not to please the group. Never has been actually.
I actually don't think phasing will last the MMO scene outside of WoW. I think systems like Guild Wars 2's Dynamic events, WAR's public quests, etc is the future. Public questing that breakes down the barriers of grouping and creates social interaction with the community while changing the world for everyone. MMO's that push in the single player direction will die out because I can already go and pick up anyone of the great single player RPG's off the shelf right now which will give me the best of that kind of experience, with Co-Op play. I personally never enjoyed phasing, I actually only enjoyed it once and that was when I did the DK starting quests. Guild Wars already did things similar to it and Anet is moving on to new things because the game mechanic is archaic and dead.
There is another reason why phasing will not be easely copied: it is too expensive to develop.
But I will watch the reaction of the noob people when they did the phased questing in Cata ... and then will no longer find these changed realities in the other newer games.
You see the problem again is : ....
Once people get spoiled by a non instanced but world story telling feature, there is no "cheap" way going back.
I look at the cramptastic efforts made by a few in this thread to downplay it.
But you see that's the core problem this "industry" has with Blizzard: follow or get steamrolled.
People no longer accept the non responsive combat, the non seamless worlds, the mindless long leveling by killing mobs and ridiculous waiting time before a screen. All that is behind us - forever.
The next step is that they no longer accept non changing worlds according to what the INDIVIDUAL avatar did in his adventures. GOOD Video games are played for the individual amusement, not to please the group. Never has been actually.
Oblivion meets static old MMORPG's.
Yep, it is.
I understand that you really like this technology, and you are entitled to that.
But i still fail to see why you would want things to only happen for your character in an MMORPG, i would want my actions to mean something for everyone in the same world and phasing cannot do that, it is just a step in the Singleplayer RPG direction.
As others have mentioned GW2 dynamic events system sounds like a better system than phasing coupled with personalized story event's for your own character to tell a deeper story.
"People no longer accept the non responsive combat, the non seamless worlds, the mindless long leveling by killing mobs and ridiculous waiting time before a screen. All that is behind us - forever."
As for a few of the things you mentioned, you do know that WoW didn't pioneer any of them, they were used i other mmo's before WoW.
I'm not saying WoW is a bad game, it isn't... The number of people playing the game is a testimony to that.
"here is another reason why phasing will not be easely copied: it is too expensive to develop."
Phasing isn't all that expensive to develop in the grand scheme of things when it comes to mmo's, this of course precludes the initial requirement of the engine they use to be capable of it, but if new games wanted to use this technology they easily could.
The reason you won't see this technology used in other mmo's is that it goes agains the philosophy of what an mmo is all about, it takes out the Massive part of it. Now there is nothing wrong with an online Co-op RPG which is what this technology is going to turn games into, but it will not be an MMORPG.
"The next step is that they no longer accept non changing worlds according to what the INDIVIDUAL avatar did in his adventures. GOOD Video games are played for the individual amusement, not to please the group. Never has been actually."
If this is what you would want then why not play one of the absolutely great Singleplayer RPG out there, some of them even features Co-op play, then you get the best of both worlds. They have great story which changes according to what your character does and you can play them with friends to tackle some of the hard contents. While an MMO should cater to individual amusement some of that amusement comes from the fact that you are in a fantasy world with other people, atleast it does for me.
...While an MMO should cater to individual amusement some of that amusement comes from the fact that you are in a fantasy world with other people, atleast it does for me.
Why bother even dipping your toes in the genre if you don't want that?
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
...While an MMO should cater to individual amusement some of that amusement comes from the fact that you are in a fantasy world with other people, atleast it does for me.
Why bother even dipping your toes in the genre if you don't want that?
If i don't want what? I thought i stated very clearly that i wanted and MMO where i where in a world with alot of other people, if i'm misunderstanding your comment then please elaborate?
... GOOD Video games are played for the individual amusement, not to please the group. Never has been actually.
You need to actually experience more of what the genre (let alone video games in general) has to offer, that much is painfully clear. Surely, you are aware that there is more than one game on the market?
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
...While an MMO should cater to individual amusement some of that amusement comes from the fact that you are in a fantasy world with other people, atleast it does for me.
Why bother even dipping your toes in the genre if you don't want that?
If i don't want what? I thought i stated very clearly that i wanted and MMO where i where in a world with alot of other people, if i'm misunderstanding your comment then please elaborate?
I was agreeing with you, sorry if I wasn't clear. What I meant was, if a person isn't interested in human interaction, why would they bother with mmos in the first place.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
...While an MMO should cater to individual amusement some of that amusement comes from the fact that you are in a fantasy world with other people, atleast it does for me.
Why bother even dipping your toes in the genre if you don't want that?
If i don't want what? I thought i stated very clearly that i wanted and MMO where i where in a world with alot of other people, if i'm misunderstanding your comment then please elaborate?
I was agreeing with you, sorry if I wasn't clear. What I meant was, if a person isn't interested in human interaction, why would they bother with mmos in the first place.
I've honestly hated phasing from the get go. Ignoring all the arguments about how it separates the players and basically fragments the persistant world into a series of overlayed instances the biggest issue for me is that it's just more of this 'everyone's a hero' gimmick.
As a player I know that I'm no more a hero than everyone else playing the game, and if everyone gets to be heroic then no one is really a hero as we're all the same. To be a hero in an MMO you have to do something unique within the community; you have to literally become a hero among the players, not among the scripted NPCs that say the same thing to everyone. The single player storylines simply don't do anything for me... they actually feel like I'm having even less of an impact on the game world because I know that no one else can see what I'm doing and everyone else is doing it themselves.
To put it simply: single player storylines don't belong in MMOs!
An MMO storyline should be an overarching one told through the lore of the world and in-game events that everyone can participate in. Part of the idea of a persistant world is that changes are persistant too. If players can individually change things in their own phased version of the world then it's no longer persistant as far as I care. It is not as difficult to do as people say, as MANY games have allowed players to change things persistantly in a way that affects all players. The problem is that no developer has had the guts to rethink the entire game structure to make this integral to the content (well ArenaNet are trying to for GW2 and they look to be doing it successfully, so fingers crossed they'll show phasing up for what it really is).
Phasing is simply a lazy option for storytelling that is hybridising the genre with single player RPGs. WoW's status as an MMO has been dubious for some time now I think. It may fulfil each of the requirements to hold the acronym: persistant world, lots of players, RPG concepts, etc. But it's basically rendered most of these either entirely obsolete or entirely separate now. I've already indicated my opinion that phasing goes against the persistant world concept, it also goes against the multiplayer concept (Note: massively multiplayer suggests multiplayer at all times, not just when you hop into an instance for those who are trying that lame argument. Was Diablo an MMO? Or GW1? No, so if that's all the multiplayer content of WoW then it's no longer an MMO either).
GW's 2 / Rifts "dynamic events" (what's in a name) were done already 5 years ago and they are re-introduced with every pre expansion patch and they are BORING as hell in PVE.
The last ones lasted one to two weeks and after 3 days no one wanted to do them anymore.
Why? because they are based on a mindless group zerg fest, whether you do something as an individual or not, it doesn't matter in PVE. Open a gate (Vanilla), open a portal (TBC) or change the looks of an island (TBC) or a dungeon (pre Cata) it has ZERO personal satisfaction. ---- You undergo the event as such ----
You see the event and you follow the group. Yeah, it is triggered without you and resolved - if you wish - without you.
Exciting the first time you see it, disgusting if you see it happen 5 times in a row. The variant being the PVE timing.
Video games ARE single player experience. What makes MMO great is that IF you have the time and IF it interests you, YOU can decide to group or not and with whom or not.
12.000.000 or 50K that has always been the question. Core mechanic of succes.
And phasing is FANTASTIC and certainly not a lazy or cheap option since you have to program multiple quest realities for every avatar that walks around without resorting to instances and still putting everyone in the same zone.
Stating this high tech programming "phasing" as something "lazy" is a laugh. Typical for this Blizzard hate.
...While an MMO should cater to individual amusement some of that amusement comes from the fact that you are in a fantasy world with other people, atleast it does for me.
Why bother even dipping your toes in the genre if you don't want that?
Perhaps you should ask the millions of WOW players who play exactly like that?
Or read the hundreds of posts here on MMORPG.com where players who enjoy soloing enjoy it more when they get the passive benefits MMOs provide, like economy and random social encounters (which still happen, even with phasing.)
Personally I prefer small-group content, but I also enjoy solo world content (as long as it hits a certain bar of quality, which phasing allows WOW's solo content to achieve. LOTRO's solo content was similarly excellent.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
GW's 2 / Rifts "dynamic events" (what's in a name) were done already 5 years ago and they are re-introduced with every pre expansion patch and they are BORING as hell in PVE.
The last ones lasted one to two weeks and after 3 days no one wanted to do them anymore.
Why? because they are based on a mindless group zerg fest, whether you do something as an individual or not, it doesn't matter in PVE. Open a gate (Vanilla), open a portal (TBC) or change the looks of an island (TBC) or a dungeon (pre Cata) it has ZERO personal satisfaction. ---- You undergo the event as such ----
You see the event and you follow the group. Yeah, it is triggered without you and resolved - if you wish - without you.
Exciting the first thing you see it, disgusting if you see it happen 5 times in a row. The variant being the PVE timing.
Video gampes ARE single player experience. What makes MMO great is that IF you have the time and IF it interests you, YOU can decide to group or not and with whom or not.
12.000.000 or 50K that has always been the question. Core mechanic of succes.
I'm beginning to think that you just are too much in love with WoW to see other points of view.
Games are not nesecarily singleplayer experiences, atleast an MMO shouldn't be, again it goes against every thing MMO stands for.
I get that this is not what you are looking for in a game, and that is fine.
"What makes MMO great is that IF you have the time and IF it interests you, YOU can decide to group or not and with whom or not."
I can't even begin to describe how wrong i think this is. That would be what makes a singeplayer with CO-OP good, but not an MMO. An MMO is supposed to be all about players and the world they are in.
And just because 12.000.000 million people like a game doesn't mean that it represents everyones interest.
"You see the event and you follow the group. Yeah, it is triggered without you and resolved - if you wish - without you."
That is exactly what i want in an MMO, a world where everything doesn't revolve around me if i wasn't there. I want to have a game where i blow up a mountain and then that mountain is gone for me and everyone else, even if it now means someone can't turn in their quests there. And to that end phasing is clearly a step in the wrong direction, and should not be considered in other MMO's.
I believe we should beging to describe games like WoW as SORPG (Singeplayer online role playing game) as that is what it is becoming. If that is what you want then have at it, just don't label it as what an MMO game is supposed to be.
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by JLVDB
There is another reason why phasing will not be easely copied: it is too expensive to develop.
Yeah I think that's probably the biggest of the reasons phasing will struggle to be widely adopted.
It doesn't strike me as something super easy to do (at least at the scale to which these worlds are made.)
Being a programmer myself i know what it takes to implement something like phasing. While not the simplest of tasks it isn't nearly as difficult as you seem to think. The actualy mechanic isn't to difficult to implement as i already described in an earlier post.
"You see the event and you follow the group. Yeah, it is triggered without you and resolved - if you wish - without you."
That is exactly what i want in an MMO, a world where everything doesn't revolve around me if i wasn't there. I want to have a game where i blow up a mountain and then that mountain is gone for me and everyone else, even if it now means someone can't turn in their quests there. And to that end phasing is clearly a step in the wrong direction, and should not be considered in other MMO's.
I believe we should beging to describe games like WoW as SORPG (Singeplayer online role playing game) as that is what it is becoming. If that is what you want then have at it, just don't label it as what an MMO game is supposed to be.
If you want to follow the 100 DPS running from one triggered event to another triggered event I give you exaclty 3 days before being bored.
You see you talk about hyped potential, I talk about gaming everyone sees.
Everyone can see that the individual player is driven to better his hero. Not to better the herd.
There is another reason why phasing will not be easely copied: it is too expensive to develop.
Yeah I think that's probably the biggest of the reasons phasing will struggle to be widely adopted.
It doesn't strike me as something super easy to do (at least at the scale to which these worlds are made.)
Being a programmer myself i know what it takes to implement something like phasing. While not the simplest of tasks it isn't nearly as difficult as you seem to think. The actualy mechanic isn't to difficult to implement as i already described in an earlier post.
Oh really: so you think implementing phasing is "easy" in an mmorpg....
First eliminate already all MMO's which don't have background loading.
Then eliminate all instance techniques used because it is not a loaded instance.
Then do the activation of a phased surface based on proximity of the avatars (sometimes 5 meters, sometimes, 10; 20 or more). And remember at X + 1 meter all avatars in the zone still see each other, NO MATTER what.
Then design the flow charts for EACH individual avatar in the complete game and track his/her status according to the multiple realities of the few hundred phased quests in the game.
Then design multiple design stages of the zones where multiple phasing takes place.
Costs to develop: probably 3 to 5 times more than a non changing or ONE global dimensional dynamic changing world event.
Like I said Oblivion meets MMORPG's.
yeah real easy...or how exactly did you even say ? "lazy..."
Why bother even dipping your toes in the genre if you don't want that?
Perhaps you should ask the millions of WOW players who play exactly like that?
Or read the hundreds of posts here on MMORPG.com where players who enjoy soloing enjoy it more when they get the passive benefits MMOs provide, like economy and random social encounters (which still happen, even with phasing.)
Personally I prefer small-group content, but I also enjoy solo world content (as long as it hits a certain bar of quality, which phasing allows WOW's solo content to achieve. LOTRO's solo content was similarly excellent.)
I would much prefer to be with a small group of actual friends, than to be slapped into some "team" of random people that happen to be online. Also, I'm not against soloing at all, but if that's the be all and end all for a gamer, there's simply better options out there for them than mmos.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Comments
Whether or not games had phasing before WoW is in my mind not really important, my biggest gripe is why anyone would want phasing in an MMO?
For me the feeling of being in a "real" world is what drives me to an mmo, the feeling that i'm a living breathing character in this world and i have an impact on this world (be it good/negative for me and others) and the world has an impact on my character.
The inclusion of phasing in mmo's is for me a step away from this, it removes me from an persistent world. The world is no longer a single world with players in it, but a different world for everyone in it, if they are not at the same step of a quest chain.
That sais i'm not against WoW using the technology to their own use, they have long ago removed all resemblance of a persistent world anyway.
As others have stated the techonology is nothing new, and the comparision with the stealthed rogue is sound, although it may be a bit more complicated. it basically boils down to the server telling the client which "phase" to render/show and then again draw the things in that "phase" it is no different to the client as rendering the world as it was before phasing.
Take the example with the sunken landmass. Client A has completed this chain, Client B has not. Once both come close enough to see this the server tells Client A to render "Phase B (the one with the sunken landmass" and Client "B" to render "Phase A (without the sunken landmass)" it then checks whether Client A and B can see each other, if they can and Client A & B is somewhere that their current phase wouldn't allow them to see each other it tells the client not to draw them.
This is not all that different than the rogue going stealth, albeit on a bigger scale.
Didn't read the entire thread, but just came to say phasing is probably the most horrible thing introduced into the MMORPG market since casual playstyles. What is the point of not being in a zone with everyone else, it's bad enough no one gives incentives for grouping anymore. Destroying the ability to SEE other people, you might as well just play offline.
I've said my piece in this thread. But i wanted to comment on this little tidbit.
I consider this both sad and pathetic that a player thats been playing as long as you have Axehilt thinks that is a good thing.
I honestly don't know if you just go out of your way to troll anymore because thats probably the saddest thing ive seen someone write on this forum in a while.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
phasing makes mmo´s true rpg´s
I tried to do everything against what quest says,i tried to kill questgiver,all good guys cos i felt like i wanna be a bad guy now,i tried every possible way to get some phasing going as i wanted to,but no,I couldnt change a thing.so i had to follow the script like everybody else,RPG in its best.
Generation P
Honestly I don't see how someone can watch the market so long and not see it:
Simulations have always undersold Games, throughout all of videogaming.
Sandboxes are Simulations.
Themeparks are Games.
Blizzard makes Games.
Players play, and want Games.
The way that World Content and Dungeons are organized in WOW currently makes for a superior Game compared to what we've seen in other MMORPGs. Are there better ways to do it? Absolutely. If companies want to do well (not beat Blizzard, but do well) they need to discover those ways and start building up a company and fanbase.
(or if you're already big like Bioware you already have a company and fanbase and you're ready to potentially *really* compete with WOW.)
And if you like Simulations:
Realize you're in a minority. Expect minority-funded games. Seek these niche products (because they won't be made with companies with huge marketing budgets.)
Also realize that by definition Hardcore MMOs are inherently going to slip away, as a combination of the above factors. This doesn't mean there won't be things to do for hardcore players, but that MMOs with huge barriers to entry (barriers to learn how to play) will certainly not be common.
...or learn to enjoy Game games.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
all they need to do is remove those 3 letters from their games R and P and G,and MMORPG scene is cured.
Generation P
You're mistaken.
For 25+ years videogame RPGs have been what MMORPGs are. Story and character progression and offloading the weight of player skill onto character stats.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
What is the point of seeing EVERYONE in the zone? You are not going to interact with all of them anyway. If the game has enough players, and WOW certainly fits that description, than there will be enough players to see in the same phase.
That is a price worth paying for better stories & quest progressions.
I have played through many L80-85 quest lines (obviously phasing was used in many of them) and there are always many others around. In fact, slow spawn rate and kill stealing is more of an issue than not seeing anyone.
Plus, there is nothing wrong with not seeing a lot of people all the time. MMO does not need that 24/7. There are populous places and there are less populous places. I don't want ALL of my MMO zones look like a mall on black friday everywhere.
Phasing is all about a better way to develop the story for you...or your group if you're doing the quest chain grouped. The fact that other random people nearby don't come with you into the new phase is at worst, irrelevant and actually a good thing because it does away with the silly competition to tag the mob first in crowded areas.
This is neither a "grouping is good, soloing is bad" nor "open world is good, instances are bad" thread. Phasing is about a better story-telling device that creates the illusion that your actions are world-changing and as such, they are effective.
It also sounds to me like your recollection of the glory days of MMOs is being remembered through rosy distortion filters. I was there just as well and there were many things that sucked: kill stealing, incredibly long waits for the spawn you needed--especially in dungeons, a trading system that relied on both traders being honest since someone had to "go first," no mail system, no easy way to trade your crafted items, etc... thanks but no thanks.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
I actually don't think phasing will last the MMO scene outside of WoW. I think systems like Guild Wars 2's Dynamic events, WAR's public quests, etc is the future. Public questing that breakes down the barriers of grouping and creates social interaction with the community while changing the world for everyone. MMO's that push in the single player direction will die out because I can already go and pick up anyone of the great single player RPG's off the shelf right now which will give me the best of that kind of experience, with Co-Op play. I personally never enjoyed phasing, I actually only enjoyed it once and that was when I did the DK starting quests. Guild Wars already did things similar to it and Anet is moving on to new things because the game mechanic is archaic and dead.
There is another reason why phasing will not be easely copied: it is too expensive to develop.
But I will watch the reaction of the noob people when they did the phased questing in Cata ... and then will no longer find these changed realities in the other newer games.
You see the problem again is : ....
Once people get spoiled by a non instanced but world story telling feature, there is no "cheap" way going back.
I look at the cramptastic efforts made by a few in this thread to downplay it.
But you see that's the core problem this "industry" has with Blizzard: follow or get steamrolled.
People no longer accept the non responsive combat, the non seamless worlds, the mindless long leveling by killing mobs and ridiculous waiting time before a screen. All that is behind us - forever.
The next step is that they no longer accept non changing worlds according to what the INDIVIDUAL avatar did in his adventures. GOOD Video games are played for the individual amusement, not to please the group. Never has been actually.
Oblivion meets static old MMORPG's.
Yep, it is.
I understand that you really like this technology, and you are entitled to that.
But i still fail to see why you would want things to only happen for your character in an MMORPG, i would want my actions to mean something for everyone in the same world and phasing cannot do that, it is just a step in the Singleplayer RPG direction.
As others have mentioned GW2 dynamic events system sounds like a better system than phasing coupled with personalized story event's for your own character to tell a deeper story.
"People no longer accept the non responsive combat, the non seamless worlds, the mindless long leveling by killing mobs and ridiculous waiting time before a screen. All that is behind us - forever."
As for a few of the things you mentioned, you do know that WoW didn't pioneer any of them, they were used i other mmo's before WoW.
I'm not saying WoW is a bad game, it isn't... The number of people playing the game is a testimony to that.
"here is another reason why phasing will not be easely copied: it is too expensive to develop."
Phasing isn't all that expensive to develop in the grand scheme of things when it comes to mmo's, this of course precludes the initial requirement of the engine they use to be capable of it, but if new games wanted to use this technology they easily could.
The reason you won't see this technology used in other mmo's is that it goes agains the philosophy of what an mmo is all about, it takes out the Massive part of it. Now there is nothing wrong with an online Co-op RPG which is what this technology is going to turn games into, but it will not be an MMORPG.
"The next step is that they no longer accept non changing worlds according to what the INDIVIDUAL avatar did in his adventures. GOOD Video games are played for the individual amusement, not to please the group. Never has been actually."
If this is what you would want then why not play one of the absolutely great Singleplayer RPG out there, some of them even features Co-op play, then you get the best of both worlds. They have great story which changes according to what your character does and you can play them with friends to tackle some of the hard contents. While an MMO should cater to individual amusement some of that amusement comes from the fact that you are in a fantasy world with other people, atleast it does for me.
Why bother even dipping your toes in the genre if you don't want that?
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
If i don't want what? I thought i stated very clearly that i wanted and MMO where i where in a world with alot of other people, if i'm misunderstanding your comment then please elaborate?
You need to actually experience more of what the genre (let alone video games in general) has to offer, that much is painfully clear. Surely, you are aware that there is more than one game on the market?
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
I was agreeing with you, sorry if I wasn't clear. What I meant was, if a person isn't interested in human interaction, why would they bother with mmos in the first place.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Ahh i see, and i agree completely with you.
I've honestly hated phasing from the get go. Ignoring all the arguments about how it separates the players and basically fragments the persistant world into a series of overlayed instances the biggest issue for me is that it's just more of this 'everyone's a hero' gimmick.
As a player I know that I'm no more a hero than everyone else playing the game, and if everyone gets to be heroic then no one is really a hero as we're all the same. To be a hero in an MMO you have to do something unique within the community; you have to literally become a hero among the players, not among the scripted NPCs that say the same thing to everyone. The single player storylines simply don't do anything for me... they actually feel like I'm having even less of an impact on the game world because I know that no one else can see what I'm doing and everyone else is doing it themselves.
To put it simply: single player storylines don't belong in MMOs!
An MMO storyline should be an overarching one told through the lore of the world and in-game events that everyone can participate in. Part of the idea of a persistant world is that changes are persistant too. If players can individually change things in their own phased version of the world then it's no longer persistant as far as I care. It is not as difficult to do as people say, as MANY games have allowed players to change things persistantly in a way that affects all players. The problem is that no developer has had the guts to rethink the entire game structure to make this integral to the content (well ArenaNet are trying to for GW2 and they look to be doing it successfully, so fingers crossed they'll show phasing up for what it really is).
Phasing is simply a lazy option for storytelling that is hybridising the genre with single player RPGs. WoW's status as an MMO has been dubious for some time now I think. It may fulfil each of the requirements to hold the acronym: persistant world, lots of players, RPG concepts, etc. But it's basically rendered most of these either entirely obsolete or entirely separate now. I've already indicated my opinion that phasing goes against the persistant world concept, it also goes against the multiplayer concept (Note: massively multiplayer suggests multiplayer at all times, not just when you hop into an instance for those who are trying that lame argument. Was Diablo an MMO? Or GW1? No, so if that's all the multiplayer content of WoW then it's no longer an MMO either).
GW's 2 / Rifts "dynamic events" (what's in a name) were done already 5 years ago and they are re-introduced with every pre expansion patch and they are BORING as hell in PVE.
The last ones lasted one to two weeks and after 3 days no one wanted to do them anymore.
Why? because they are based on a mindless group zerg fest, whether you do something as an individual or not, it doesn't matter in PVE. Open a gate (Vanilla), open a portal (TBC) or change the looks of an island (TBC) or a dungeon (pre Cata) it has ZERO personal satisfaction. ---- You undergo the event as such ----
You see the event and you follow the group. Yeah, it is triggered without you and resolved - if you wish - without you.
Exciting the first time you see it, disgusting if you see it happen 5 times in a row. The variant being the PVE timing.
Video games ARE single player experience. What makes MMO great is that IF you have the time and IF it interests you, YOU can decide to group or not and with whom or not.
12.000.000 or 50K that has always been the question. Core mechanic of succes.
And phasing is FANTASTIC and certainly not a lazy or cheap option since you have to program multiple quest realities for every avatar that walks around without resorting to instances and still putting everyone in the same zone.
Stating this high tech programming "phasing" as something "lazy" is a laugh. Typical for this Blizzard hate.
You guys get worse by the day.
Perhaps you should ask the millions of WOW players who play exactly like that?
Or read the hundreds of posts here on MMORPG.com where players who enjoy soloing enjoy it more when they get the passive benefits MMOs provide, like economy and random social encounters (which still happen, even with phasing.)
Personally I prefer small-group content, but I also enjoy solo world content (as long as it hits a certain bar of quality, which phasing allows WOW's solo content to achieve. LOTRO's solo content was similarly excellent.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Yeah I think that's probably the biggest of the reasons phasing will struggle to be widely adopted.
It doesn't strike me as something super easy to do (at least at the scale to which these worlds are made.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I'm beginning to think that you just are too much in love with WoW to see other points of view.
Games are not nesecarily singleplayer experiences, atleast an MMO shouldn't be, again it goes against every thing MMO stands for.
I get that this is not what you are looking for in a game, and that is fine.
"What makes MMO great is that IF you have the time and IF it interests you, YOU can decide to group or not and with whom or not."
I can't even begin to describe how wrong i think this is. That would be what makes a singeplayer with CO-OP good, but not an MMO. An MMO is supposed to be all about players and the world they are in.
And just because 12.000.000 million people like a game doesn't mean that it represents everyones interest.
"You see the event and you follow the group. Yeah, it is triggered without you and resolved - if you wish - without you."
That is exactly what i want in an MMO, a world where everything doesn't revolve around me if i wasn't there. I want to have a game where i blow up a mountain and then that mountain is gone for me and everyone else, even if it now means someone can't turn in their quests there. And to that end phasing is clearly a step in the wrong direction, and should not be considered in other MMO's.
I believe we should beging to describe games like WoW as SORPG (Singeplayer online role playing game) as that is what it is becoming. If that is what you want then have at it, just don't label it as what an MMO game is supposed to be.
Being a programmer myself i know what it takes to implement something like phasing. While not the simplest of tasks it isn't nearly as difficult as you seem to think. The actualy mechanic isn't to difficult to implement as i already described in an earlier post.
If you want to follow the 100 DPS running from one triggered event to another triggered event I give you exaclty 3 days before being bored.
You see you talk about hyped potential, I talk about gaming everyone sees.
Everyone can see that the individual player is driven to better his hero. Not to better the herd.
Oh really: so you think implementing phasing is "easy" in an mmorpg....
First eliminate already all MMO's which don't have background loading.
Then eliminate all instance techniques used because it is not a loaded instance.
Then do the activation of a phased surface based on proximity of the avatars (sometimes 5 meters, sometimes, 10; 20 or more). And remember at X + 1 meter all avatars in the zone still see each other, NO MATTER what.
Then design the flow charts for EACH individual avatar in the complete game and track his/her status according to the multiple realities of the few hundred phased quests in the game.
Then design multiple design stages of the zones where multiple phasing takes place.
Costs to develop: probably 3 to 5 times more than a non changing or ONE global dimensional dynamic changing world event.
Like I said Oblivion meets MMORPG's.
yeah real easy...or how exactly did you even say ? "lazy..."
Seriously.
I would much prefer to be with a small group of actual friends, than to be slapped into some "team" of random people that happen to be online. Also, I'm not against soloing at all, but if that's the be all and end all for a gamer, there's simply better options out there for them than mmos.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb