It doesn't matter what the reality of it is. It's all in the presentation. If it feels seamless, looks seamless, and behaves in a manner that appears seamless, it's seamless. That's why I call WoW's overland areas seamless. I know they aren't. I know there are tricks to loading areas, like the way the entrances to cities have an offset shift in them and so on. However, take a gryphon flight from one end to the other and tell me that doesn't look like a seamless world.
Arguing semantics doesn't really add anything to the on-going discussion. It just comes off as nitpicky,
"You'll never win an argument with an idiot because he is too stupid to recognize his own defeat." ~Anonymous
It doesn't matter what the reality of it is. It's all in the presentation. If it feels seamless, looks seamless, and behaves in a manner that appears seamless, it's seamless. That's why I call WoW's overland areas seamless. I know they aren't. I know there are tricks to loading areas, like the way the entrances to cities have an offset shift in them and so on. However, take a gryphon flight from one end to the other and tell me that doesn't look like a seamless world.
Arguing semantics doesn't really add anything to the on-going discussion. It just comes off as nitpicky,
That comes down to what I already said 2 posts above, however, I would like to point out that what you say about the entrance of cities: that was already the full 3D part I spoke about (TBC/4 years ago) and now has been implemented in the "new" Azeroth too.
You enter all these cities from ANY angle in full 3D now on your flying mount (if you have one).
What does this say? it is the perception that counts but it also MANDATORY these days that new MMO's made from scratch need a full 3D design.
2D fake painted borders and invisible walls (through mountains or simple 2D forests etc) will no longer be accepted. It doesn't mean a flying world per se, but the designer has to make it full 3D from scratch.
And believe me: THAT is a big pain in the ass AND the pockets of the developper IF they even want to make a remotely accepted AAA title.
That's why the OP's discussion is around 4 years too late. That is just one element of the invisible "200 million dollars" development wall some will have to cross.
Yes their are basically games that are, Vanguard has zone lines with a very slight pause, it doesn't say loading, but you can tell when you hit the line....APW had 3 copies, but they were public also. The travel that 'zones' you, can be done by foot or boat.
UO has some loading, but I believe that it can all be bypassed too, if you run and take the alternate routes to other lands.
So I think you are wrong, but it doesn't really matter, when people say seamless world, they mean like these games, or where they are 90-95% seamless....To where about everything feels open.
So I would say Vanguard is the most modern seamless MMO, you have many open and non-zoned dungeons, and the only one that may load is APW, technically, since you teleport and it takes like 1-2 seconds or less to load the new screen when you teleport into the dungeon if you are keyed.
So you can always probably find something to haggle about, but I would say overall, UO, VG are seamless.
OP: If a game has around 10 to 20 HUGE zones connected to each other without any zoning and pre loading areas and you access them purely on background loading you have a perfect "feeling" of a seamless world.
Try to walk from southern Strang. Vale to and go north througout Eastern Kingdoms and you'll be in for hours on end without seeing one zoning technique or "loading graphics screens".
And that single continent of Eastern Kingdoms is already a lot bigger than most new MMO's have.
It is the natural flow that counts. Not some nit picking if you would take a boat trip (that actually would take too long as a RP) to another continent.
So explain me your motivation: it is the feeling that counts when you run/go for hours through seamless designed lands.
-
However: you are about 4 years LATE with the views of seamless open worlds as they have long been surpassed by the current new standard designs.
What's the current design?: simple: FULL 3D seamless open worlds: you can no longer design "painted landscapes in the distance you can't have access to" ...
If you SEE a mountain in game, you need to be able to access it and even go on top.
That's the new challenge for every new MMO and ... a lot of the recently (and not so recently launched MMo's) already failed this test.
The reason is simple : too costly to develop a full 3D model without the fake painted backgrounds.
And the end result is that players feel ENCLOSED. Some people "can't lay the finger on this closed up liniair thing". But it is simply due to the "painted walls in the background".
Here : you learned a new lesson: full access 3D = more important than a boat voyage to a new continent.
So the smart jab (as usual) against Blizzard (because it is again semantics used against Wow in your post) - with hardly any valid arguments -, already kicked you back.
I was expecting a post like this. I have to ask, did you read my post fully? Or do you not understand the meaning behind it. While i will not take a personal jab at you, as you just tried to jump on me about, i will however break this down for you.
I did not attack wow, in any way shape or form. Infact i credited wow on being extremely close to a Seamless world with their original content. I also gave an example of how wow made the seamles model verry well with my example of elwyn into stowrmwind. I also hinted at the travelt hrew each continent was seamless aswell. I did mention that the loading screen and the instant travel between continents without a proper method of going threw it physicly breaks the definition of a seemless world!
Now, I agree that the natural flow counts. Infact that is one of my main points. Also running for hours threw large zones was not adressed in any of the information i typed out. I have mentioned the being able to visably and physicly move from are to area without a loadign screen does. Note i mentioned the flight paths.
The fact that you see a mountain in the distance, does not mean by definition that you need to be able to axess it. You dont even HAVE to go threw the sided zones or 'painted' zones you mentioned. this has nothing to do with the definition, or the reality of a seamless world.
A Seamless World is a design method for mmorpgs where the world is loaded as you travel. This kind of method makes the game feel more like a world than one that uses zones. That is the definition of a seamless world. In other words, Traveling from a zone or 'map' to another involves no load screens so on so forth. you can literaly physicly walk threw, you can see yourself walk threw smothly without interuptions.
What does any of this have to do with the truth of a seamless world? Note the explained definition above. A full 3d model of the entire zone does not fall into the catagory of seamless. The fact is, when you have painted landscapes or mountians you can climb adds nothing to the topic at all. The transition from areas is what makes or breaks the seam. The painted backrounds or areas/mountains/lakes you cant reach are nothing more then a empty pocket in the physics. You just cant go there, simple as that.. if thers no zone to get there then it cannot harm the effect of a seemless world, that is more relative to the immersion not to my topic. Simple, please stay on topic here.
Also why you say that it is suppased the the current industry standerd, it is not suppased by the hearts and eyes of the gamers. I have seen countless posts.. new and old over years on this site that have people wanting the seamlessness of a world. and loading screens are viewd as a bad thing.
I will give you that. current companies are worried about other things. As a gamer myself looking for a higher level of immersion, a seamless voyage across the ocean to the other continet in wow i would have LOVED. expecialy from the goblin ports on the actual boat! Truthfully travelign across the see would bring great joy to me occasionaly expecialy if the boat was met with a dangerious attack. Like murlocks invading the boat or other creatures that i would have to fend off and then be rewarded for.
Again, off topic as i have already adressed the some of the downsides to creating this type of world.
I have mentioned verry valid arguements in my post if you wread the whole thing, you would realize that.
Also the comment of kicking myself int he back is not appriciated, Please refain from any comments that may be seen as a personal attack as they are agains the rules on these forums.
It doesn't matter what the reality of it is. It's all in the presentation. If it feels seamless, looks seamless, and behaves in a manner that appears seamless, it's seamless. That's why I call WoW's overland areas seamless. I know they aren't. I know there are tricks to loading areas, like the way the entrances to cities have an offset shift in them and so on. However, take a gryphon flight from one end to the other and tell me that doesn't look like a seamless world.
Arguing semantics doesn't really add anything to the on-going discussion. It just comes off as nitpicky,
That comes down to what I already said 2 posts above, however, I would like to point out that what you say about the entrance of cities: that was already the full 3D part I spoke about (TBC/4 years ago) and now has been implemented in the "new" Azeroth too.
You enter all these cities from ANY angle in full 3D now on your flying mount (if you have one).
What does this say? it is the perception that counts but it also MANDATORY these days that new MMO's made from scratch need a full 3D design.
2D fake painted borders and invisible walls (through mountains or simple 2D forests etc) will no longer be accepted. It doesn't mean a flying world per se, but the designer has to make it full 3D from scratch.
And believe me: THAT is a big pain in the ass AND the pockets of the developper IF they even want to make a remotely accepted AAA title.
That's why the OP's discussion is around 4 years too late. That is just one element of the invisible "200 million dollars" development wall some will have to cross.
Yep, I see now. Sorry, I read the first post and felt my blood pressure rise, so I had to toss in my 2 quid worth just to calm my nerves.
"You'll never win an argument with an idiot because he is too stupid to recognize his own defeat." ~Anonymous
Oddly this game did come to mind when i was typing my original post, however if i remember corectly there was some zoneing in that game. It will be added to my future list with concrete reasoning. Thank you for your post
Oddly this game did come to mind when i was typing my original post, however if i remember corectly there was some zoneing in that game. It will be added to my future list with concrete reasoning. Thank you for your post
Great the game with the most number of invisible walls ever , gets mentioned.again
You guys are very amusing.
Read my post again: the ONLY thing that will count in world design these days is that new MMO's will have to be designed in full 3D without fake borders.
NO longer painted mountains/forests in the background you can't go to.
And believe me THAT and the huge needed content is the real pain in the ass of every developper ever since 2007.
The OP tried to out smart "seamless" with semantics, a pity his ignorance of the full 3D element spoke volumes in his colored answers.
It doesn't matter what the reality of it is. It's all in the presentation. If it feels seamless, looks seamless, and behaves in a manner that appears seamless, it's seamless. That's why I call WoW's overland areas seamless. I know they aren't. I know there are tricks to loading areas, like the way the entrances to cities have an offset shift in them and so on. However, take a gryphon flight from one end to the other and tell me that doesn't look like a seamless world.
Arguing semantics doesn't really add anything to the on-going discussion. It just comes off as nitpicky,
Actualy, as i mentioned in other replys i have mentioned that the continents in world of warcraft are seemless.
The offset shift when traveling to a diferent zone does not break the definition, which is what this is about. However the instant travel without a alternitve route between the two continents (or 3 now with Wotlk or the completely seperate map of outlands) does. I am running of the literal fact of what a seamless 'world' is. The travel throughout the continents are seemless envoirments, not a world.
I would also like to stress that i was not in anyway attacking or talking down on wow. I simply used it as an example, which while doing so in a sence credited them on the outsatanding work on the envoiremental travel.
It doesn't matter what the reality of it is. It's all in the presentation. If it feels seamless, looks seamless, and behaves in a manner that appears seamless, it's seamless. That's why I call WoW's overland areas seamless. I know they aren't. I know there are tricks to loading areas, like the way the entrances to cities have an offset shift in them and so on. However, take a gryphon flight from one end to the other and tell me that doesn't look like a seamless world.
Arguing semantics doesn't really add anything to the on-going discussion. It just comes off as nitpicky,
Actualy, as i mentioned in other replys i have mentioned that the continents in world of warcraft are seemless.
The offset shift when traveling to a diferent zone does not break the definition, which is what this is about. However the instant travel without a alternitve route between the two continents (or 3 now with Wotlk or the completely seperate map of outlands) does. I am running of the literal fact of what a seamless 'world' is. The travel throughout the continents are seemless envoirments, not a world.
I would also like to stress that i was not in anyway attacking or talking down on wow. I simply used it as an example, which while doing so in a sence credited them on the outsatanding work on the envoiremental travel.
So what is the meaning of your thread ?
To justify that "seamless" has its limits too ?
Answer my questions of full 3D and why it is MUCH worse to have painted and fake mountains in the back than calling in the seamless semantics as ... what an ... argument that the earth itself is not seamless ..?
Oddly this game did come to mind when i was typing my original post, however if i remember corectly there was some zoneing in that game. It will be added to my future list with concrete reasoning. Thank you for your post
Wurms Online as well. Only loading that is done is when you actually move to an other server. There are 3 servers, you can move between server by swimming across the ocean.
Now it would be interesting to discuss if that makes the Wurm World seamless or not. You could say those three server make one world and thus the world is not seamless. On the other side if you then remove the ability for people to swim over the ocean to an other server, but force them to do so by picking a server it would suddenly be a seamless world(s)?
Also I believe ATITD is seamless.
Also loading does not mean the game is not seamless at all!!! Let's say you use a teleport to go to an enclosed dungeon, but the dungeon is there always and in the same place and it is not instanced, but you have to load. The world is still seamless, your could say the reason the game has to load is not duo to the game, but because of hardware limitation of the user/server.
Seamless means aswell no 2nd dungeon. In wow you go to a dungeon with a team and noone else can enter. How much does that such? The servers are cross servers now, so you can play dungeons with ppl you will never know.
I say Darkfall fills to me seamless. Wow is as far away from seamless as possible. But i se your point with the big lands which is awesome. But still. crossservers? OMFG. How sad is that? Its not an MMORPG, its a MMOsingleplayergame.
It doesn't matter what the reality of it is. It's all in the presentation. If it feels seamless, looks seamless, and behaves in a manner that appears seamless, it's seamless. That's why I call WoW's overland areas seamless. I know they aren't. I know there are tricks to loading areas, like the way the entrances to cities have an offset shift in them and so on. However, take a gryphon flight from one end to the other and tell me that doesn't look like a seamless world.
Arguing semantics doesn't really add anything to the on-going discussion. It just comes off as nitpicky,
Actualy, as i mentioned in other replys i have mentioned that the continents in world of warcraft are seemless.
The offset shift when traveling to a diferent zone does not break the definition, which is what this is about. However the instant travel without a alternitve route between the two continents (or 3 now with Wotlk or the completely seperate map of outlands) does. I am running of the literal fact of what a seamless 'world' is. The travel throughout the continents are seemless envoirments, not a world.
I would also like to stress that i was not in anyway attacking or talking down on wow. I simply used it as an example, which while doing so in a sence credited them on the outsatanding work on the envoiremental travel.
So what is the meaning of your thread ?
To justify that "seamless" has its limits too ?
Answer my questions of full 3D and why it is MUCH worse to have painted and fake mountains in the back than calling in the seamless semantics as ... what an ... argument that the earth itself is not seamless ..?
since you seem dead set on this, i will humor you. Thoe i will stres this,This is completely off topic from my original post and i dont quite undterstand why you keep bringing it up!
In no way will i try to sit here and say a full 3d world is not important. Infact i actualy agree with you, Having a full 3d world is more important than weather or not there is a load screen or zoneing. The truth to that is, It dont realy bother me, Load screens are nothing but bltips on my screen because i had the luxury of building a powerfull gameing rig that renders most loads all but unoticable.
Now to answer your question about my inital post. It was to explain what a Seamless world realy is. And to explain in deatail the truth behind it. My post about about the fack following the true definiton, Not the inept immagination or those who see it as something it is not. It was a informal post intended to be educational, including problems that come with developers trying to accomplish this design in detail threw mechanics. This does also include things that break it from the defition rendering it to be with seams instead of seamless.
This was directed to those who have been flooding these forums with post claming that games are not persistand, or seamless enough for their taste. They have included blatent butchering of the meaning and seemed that they did not fully understand what it was, which inspired me to type my original post out.
The word World is, when in junction with seamless is what breaks this. It is misleading and down right dishonest to potential consumers. In my example with WOW, I spoke of the transition between two zones, depicting what seamless meant. My further breakdown of the examples shown when i talked about travel between continents, which makes up the World. Adding that seam between the two continents is what disqualifies world of warcraft as a Seamless World. Its as simple as that.
I will not, and have not try to say that the mmorpgs out do not have Seamless Content, or a Basic Seamless enviorment. My argument is against the misuse of the words Seamless World, and what that actualy implies while describeing a video game
Oddly this game did come to mind when i was typing my original post, however if i remember corectly there was some zoneing in that game. It will be added to my future list with concrete reasoning. Thank you for your post
No zoneing but you could teleport with rune stone if you wanted, between running and boats you could travel the intire world without zoneing. This would take forever so they introduced runes stones that you could mark anywhere in the world and teleport back to that spot. You had to run to that spot or take a boat to it so you could mark your rune.
From what I actually remember from Lineage 2, it was a seamless world. You could reach every area, and even those you coulnd't reach directly were close enough that you loaded them with the rest of the surrounding world (i.e. you got teleported from one side of a door to another, that teleport/NPC was there just for the purpose of not allowing some players in without a certain item or other conditions met, there wasn't a loading screen or any kind of wait, it happened immediatelly, the other side was already loaded). Dungeons were common to all and non instantiated, every piece of land that could be walked on was reachable by foot (or swim) from any other point of the map.
Sure, there was also a quick-travel (teleport) that actually had a loading screen, but it was entirely optional...
If you're out to establish yourself as an expert in terrain engines I recommend you learn more about common engines and the techniques they use. I've written several terrain engines myself, some of them very large but wouldn't call myself an expert on the subject. Someone that actually uses Unreal Engine could probably explain better how they manage to deliver a seamless world from a segmented terrain, or tried and failed as the case may be. Newer engines such as CryEngine 2 & 3 still do segmented maps but have more sophisticated LOD systems I believe. I've never used it so could be wrong.
I've done a perlin based massive terrain which can do huge maps seamlessly but there are fundamental problems which is why they aren't popular, such as pathing water. I've done more standard segmented worlds which load and unload segments in the background as the camera moves around. A finished game has so much more to do like get the location of other players, and render better trees than I could ever do. This kills it, even a monkey can write a massive seamless world if they only render a barren desert like landscape.
There are some games which I would call seamless worlds. Even though you get loading message it is there for convienence (dont know if right word, meant to make easier on players) of players. First which come to mind is Lineage 2. You got loading screen when teleporting (with good rig though it was instantenious) and also instantly teleported in 2 or 3 places by NPC, but somewhat explained that there was no normal way in. Those places were for few "uber" bosses. But that didnt destroy feeling of seamless world as it fit with storyline/lore (for those who read it ofc).
Main requirements for world to be seamless (IMO) is that you should be able to reach almost any location by walking,swimming, flying or any other mean of transportation in which you could see yourself moving and not be moved to location instantly (except it is linked by lore/story). Second is that world shouldnt be "phased" - meaning that there isnt 2 same places, that 2 group cant run 2 same dungeon at same time, if they do they will meet in same dungeon.
Lineage 2 Chaos Throne (or whatever it was called before Kamael expansion) met those criteria perfectly from what I remember.
Eve and perpetuum meets those criteria as well. I think in eve you can fly anywhere without warping but it will take loonnnggg time (not sure about this). Perpetuum is divided in islands through which you teleport, but ALL players are in same world, and there is no "phasing". So IMO they have seamless worlds as well..
I did mean to get back to this post sooner, however other posters took up that time .
Your definition is spot on. Thoe i would have to say that being teleported into a boss zone could be damning to the matter, at this point it is up in the air however. I would like to use pieces of the way you explained the definition in a future update to my inital post, with your permision.
The games you have mentioned are noted and i will look into them for a future list i am building for players looking for games with this type of world. Thank you for your post
My use of WoW as an example was just because it's convenient. It comes up a lot in these sorts of threads and there's always the person that says "Actually, WoW's world isn't seamless..." Again, for me, I say that if it feels seamless to me, it's seamless. It's a subjective opinion, and whittling it down to semantics is pointless.
I can't speak for others, but my desire for seamless-feeling worlds is for my own sense of immersion. I like the illusion that the gameworld is a large expanse with stuff going on from coast to coast or border to border. I like the idea of getting on a mount-- either land, sea, or air-- and going from one place to another without a loading screen. Now before the predictable "WOW HAS LOADING SCREENS!!!!1111" retort rears its head, I realize this. Each continent feels seamless and that's good enough for me.
EQ2, by contrast, reminds me at every turn that each area is a compartment unto itself and might as well be a large room in a large house. Its version of Norrath never felt like a world to me, rather a series of levels. I don't care if tricks are involved to fool me into believing an illusion. If the illusion is convincing, the developer gets my kudos. If an illusion is what it takes to pull the overall feel off, then I say have at it. Getting fooled into believing something is seamless is a lot better than being hit with a loading screen every time you open a door.
"You'll never win an argument with an idiot because he is too stupid to recognize his own defeat." ~Anonymous
If you're out to establish yourself as an expert in terrain engines I recommend you learn more about common engines and the techniques they use. I've written several terrain engines myself, some of them very large but wouldn't call myself an expert on the subject. Someone that actually uses Unreal Engine could probably explain better how they manage to deliver a seamless world from a segmented terrain, or tried and failed as the case may be. Newer engines such as CryEngine 2 & 3 still do segmented maps but have more sophisticated LOD systems I believe. I've never used it so could be wrong.
I've done a perlin based massive terrain which can do huge maps seamlessly but there are fundamental problems which is why they aren't popular, such as pathing water. I've done more standard segmented worlds which load and unload segments in the background as the camera moves around. A finished game has so much more to do like get the location of other players, and render better trees than I could ever do. This kills it, even a monkey can write a massive seamless world if they only render a barren desert like landscape.
I am not trying to establish myself as an expert of anything. I am simply pointing out the truth of what a seamless world is, which is why i titled my post the way i did. On the part of whitch i mentioned problems while creating this type of game i only listed the pieces that i actualy know, and will in no way try to say i know more about them. the fact is i dont, they were simply examples to clerify some 'foggy' areas.
Im am intrested in what you have said thoe. Would you mind explaining in a little more detail with your points either here or in a pm? You have my intrest peaked.
My use of WoW as an example was just because it's convenient. It comes up a lot in these sorts of threads and there's always the person that says "Actually, WoW's world isn't seamless..." Again, for me, I say that if it feels seamless to me, it's seamless. It's a subjective opinion, and whittling it down to semantics is pointless.
I can't speak for others, but my desire for seamless-feeling worlds is for my own sense of immersion. I like the illusion that the gameworld is a large expanse with stuff going on from coast to coast or border to border. I like the idea of getting on a mount-- either land, sea, or air-- and going from one place to another without a loading screen. Now before the predictable "WOW HAS LOADING SCREENS!!!!1111" retort rears its head, I realize this. Each continent feels seamless and that's good enough for me.
EQ2, by contrast, reminds me at every turn that each area is a compartment unto itself and might as well be a large room in a large house. Its version of Norrath never felt like a world to me, rather a series of levels. I don't care if tricks are involved to fool me into believing an illusion. If the illusion is convincing, the developer gets my kudos. If an illusion is what it takes to pull the overall feel off, then I say have at it. Getting fooled into believing something is seamless is a lot better than being hit with a loading screen every time you open a door.
I can agree with you, and i was not goint to jump on you about how wow is not seamless. Actualy we both did the same thing in a sence.. we both used wow as an example.. nothing more. I also enjoy the seamless fealing of a world, weather it actualy is or is not. Immersion is one of the most important things to me.. I also like to hit the run/walk button and stroll threw cities and admire the work put into each corner.. makes me 'feal' more intune with the crafted world if you will.
to reply to one of your earlier posts. Im sorry if i got you agitated with my initial post, The truth is the misuse the the term gets me iritable.. which is sort of why i posted this in the first place. It was simply posted to inform those of what it is, and what it actualy means.
Fallen Earth. I didn't read every word of every post so sorry if it has already been mentioned.
I dont belive it has.thank you. Thoe as i have asked others, could you expand on that game a little further? load screens/ instances/ map travel with no other way of getting from point a to b? I belvie you can find more examples of what im asking in previous posts on this thred.
The only seemless game is Darkfall and its a pile steaming poo....
On the topic of WoW being seemless no its not. Is it the closes game to being seemless with any extent of content yes.
Yes, they could make the boat trip from EK to Kal without a loading screen the trip would take about 30-40mins of just a boat trip (thats in a straight line). Its impratical for a game like WoW to make completely seemless world. You could not walk on your own because of Fatigue which seems like a real concern sense I don't think you can swim to europe from america can you? If you can I will appluad you and ask for proof. WoW would have been a completely seemless game if it was PRATICAL too do. It just is not. It's still not practical too make a game with no loading screens its just not. Yes, it would be awsome too be in a world that had no loading screens but to be honest I don't have to compete with 12million other people for 1 blue item from HoO.
Yes, your correct the defination of seemless not many games fit under but I don't think a GOOD game could.
There are some games which I would call seamless worlds. Even though you get loading message it is there for convienence (dont know if right word, meant to make easier on players) of players. First which come to mind is Lineage 2. You got loading screen when teleporting (with good rig though it was instantenious) and also instantly teleported in 2 or 3 places by NPC, but somewhat explained that there was no normal way in. Those places were for few "uber" bosses. But that didnt destroy feeling of seamless world as it fit with storyline/lore (for those who read it ofc).
Main requirements for world to be seamless (IMO) is that you should be able to reach almost any location by walking,swimming, flying or any other mean of transportation in which you could see yourself moving and not be moved to location instantly (except it is linked by lore/story). Second is that world shouldnt be "phased" - meaning that there isnt 2 same places, that 2 group cant run 2 same dungeon at same time, if they do they will meet in same dungeon.
Lineage 2 Chaos Throne (or whatever it was called before Kamael expansion) met those criteria perfectly from what I remember.
Eve and perpetuum meets those criteria as well. I think in eve you can fly anywhere without warping but it will take loonnnggg time (not sure about this). Perpetuum is divided in islands through which you teleport, but ALL players are in same world, and there is no "phasing". So IMO they have seamless worlds as well..
I did mean to get back to this post sooner, however other posters took up that time .
Your definition is spot on. Thoe i would have to say that being teleported into a boss zone could be damning to the matter, at this point it is up in the air however. I would like to use pieces of the way you explained the definition in a future update to my inital post, with your permision.
The games you have mentioned are noted and i will look into them for a future list i am building for players looking for games with this type of world. Thank you for your post
Sure, go ahead
Just my opinion on teleports: there is few different types of teleports. One type is sort of "generic" ones, they simple are for players convience without any backroung on them, they destroy seamless world feeling. But there is also second type which could be called "incorporated" ones. They fit in the game world and even increase it's immersiveness (thats prolly right word). Just look at fantasy books, there is plenty with some sort of matter transfer, teleports, wormholes, dimmensional rifts or whichever words you choose to use. Only things different is name and minor details. So they can be called Teleports as that word is right. And those things doesnt weaken those books, it makes them even more intersting.
It also gives enjoyment to players. Maybe not fully conscious, but it is as good. Just think, how many people is finding idea of almost instantly covering thousands of miles fun and interesting. Just ask yourself and think, wouldnt it be fun to be able to be in few different places at "same" time. Doesnt it make you smile? lol
Also in case of Lineage2 teleporters (NPC) usually requires items which would contain huge ammount of energy (talking about entering bosses areas) and each person would need to bring one. Those item varied from stones gathering from locations with high energy (cant explain it excatly, it just understanding you get after getting through quests/lore) to Angel's blood (which is very obvious imo, as angels are supposed to be exteremely powerful beings and etc). Those things made the world even more immersive.
And people should look less how devs define their world and look more like how it feels. Best 2 examples which comes to mind is Eve Online and Lineage 2. Eve even though is seamless, but it would take days (probably) to travel from station to nearest next station. But still you know possibility exists, after all it is open space. So looking at it you could say world is extremely sharded and divided to zones which "loading screen" is warp animations, but it feels seamless and thats what matters. Now lets take Lineage2. Locations are close but paths between them are sort of empty roads. So after running once you dont want to do that again. So you start you using town teleporters (from town to town) and return scrolls (teleports you to nearest town), and by using those functions you can easily forget it seamless world, you just see it as plenty of zones which arent connected by any way. Talking from my own experience. STORY ABOUT LINEAGE2 AND SEAMLESS UNFEELING. MIGHT WANT TO SKIP IF BORED ALREADY. So I was back in Lineage2 with few friends (bastards talked me in), as it wasnt first time around I knew all locations of best leveling mobs and quests. So it is simple run there kill that for 1hour, use SoE (Scroll of Escape, back to town), buy more potions, new weapons. Then you go to town teleporter, get to next town and repeat. So after reaching higher level, someone told me about new leveling location, I started running (was stupid moment, sleep depravation or any other reason), so after 30 mins I reach town to which I could teleported and I am like "WTF", after putting brains to use, I finally remembered that world was seamless. END OF STORY. So to sum it up, it is as important for world to be seamless, as to give "correct vibe/feeling" that it is really seamless.
ADDITION. A bit offtopic.
Seamless doesnt mean immersive/not immersive. I will use WoW in my example and I dont wanna this to turn to flamming session. If you have on what you disagree heavily then PM ME. So to point. No matter what Blizzard would do even making all dungeons accesible without teleport and allowing any number of people to compete/complete them it wouldnt make it feel seamless. That is because WoW was made to be immersive for casual player. When you look at it from point of logic (even fantasy logic) there is many faults. Like there isnt enough fields to feed people, not enough forests to feed ever burning fires of Stormwind (or that dwarf capital) and so on. Why is that you may ask? Reason is simple, who would want to stroll through fields for 10 minutes or hour? Almost no one. So there is no reason to include those locations. So if you know they must be there, just inaccessible that means world is not seamless as there is locations which you cant go.
Also even in game like Darkfall which can be called seamless, that seamlessness is pissing me off. You go for 20 minutes and see copy/paste locations. If I got to freaking unspoiled nature I expect to see animals, or bit varying nature, if I reach forest I expect it to be FOREST NOT FREAKING 30 TREES.... Even if there is a bit more trees I excpect to see or hear animals and birds, so I expect to be able to hunt them. In seamless world I expect to get exploration feeling, by finding "natural wonders" or at least beautiful scenaries. But in MMORPGs seamless worlds are just illusion or play of words to meet definition. In seamless world you have same active zones (around towns, quests hubs, mob camps) and then rest 50-80% (may varie on games like EVE which are empty 99.9999999% (after all it is open space lol)) of world which are FREAKING EMPTY. Do you call it seamless world? By definition yes, by COMMON SENSE I say NO FUCKING WAY...
Seamless doesnt mean immersive/not immersive. I will use WoW in my example and I dont wanna this to turn to flamming session. If you have on what you disagree heavily then PM ME. So to point. No matter what Blizzard would do even making all dungeons accesible without teleport and allowing any number of people to compete/complete them it wouldnt make it feel seamless. That is because WoW was made to be immersive for casual player. When you look at it from point of logic (even fantasy logic) there is many faults. Like there isnt enough fields to feed people, not enough forests to feed ever burning fires of Stormwind (or that dwarf capital) and so on. Why is that you may ask? Reason is simple, who would want to stroll through fields for 10 minutes or hour? Almost no one. So there is no reason to include those locations. So if you know they must be there, just inaccessible that means world is not seamless as there is locations which you cant go.
Ever since the beginning of computer RPGs, be they MMO or single player, lands have been abstracted. Take Oblivion, for example. In the game, Cyrodiil is only 5 by 3 real world miles. The state of Rhode Island is bigger, and it's the smallest state in the US. How are we to believe a rinky-dink land is the home of 6 counties, plus the Imperial district? Easy. It's abstracted for gameplay reasons. While it's fun to fantasize about Daggerfall-sized gameworlds, the impractical travel times would get old and everyone would end up using some sort of fast travel or teleport anyway.
There's also the practicality of creating content to fill such a space. Development times would run in the decades. So, we're given abstract representations of a world. A handful of farms represents the agricultural part of the civilization. A village with a handful of buildings represents a settlement of 200-400 people, while major cities represent larger metropolitan homes for 1000-2000 people.
It seems to me that insisting on 1:1 fidelity with a real world equivilant in terms of land area, population make-up, and supporting industry/infrastructure flies in the face of what these games are designed to provide, which is a bit of escapism.
"You'll never win an argument with an idiot because he is too stupid to recognize his own defeat." ~Anonymous
As long as loading screens and zones don't happen every 5 minutes, they don't bother me in the least. I have never understood why people care so much about whether they see a loading screen or not.
Comments
It doesn't matter what the reality of it is. It's all in the presentation. If it feels seamless, looks seamless, and behaves in a manner that appears seamless, it's seamless. That's why I call WoW's overland areas seamless. I know they aren't. I know there are tricks to loading areas, like the way the entrances to cities have an offset shift in them and so on. However, take a gryphon flight from one end to the other and tell me that doesn't look like a seamless world.
Arguing semantics doesn't really add anything to the on-going discussion. It just comes off as nitpicky,
"You'll never win an argument with an idiot because he is too stupid to recognize his own defeat." ~Anonymous
That comes down to what I already said 2 posts above, however, I would like to point out that what you say about the entrance of cities: that was already the full 3D part I spoke about (TBC/4 years ago) and now has been implemented in the "new" Azeroth too.
You enter all these cities from ANY angle in full 3D now on your flying mount (if you have one).
What does this say? it is the perception that counts but it also MANDATORY these days that new MMO's made from scratch need a full 3D design.
2D fake painted borders and invisible walls (through mountains or simple 2D forests etc) will no longer be accepted. It doesn't mean a flying world per se, but the designer has to make it full 3D from scratch.
And believe me: THAT is a big pain in the ass AND the pockets of the developper IF they even want to make a remotely accepted AAA title.
That's why the OP's discussion is around 4 years too late. That is just one element of the invisible "200 million dollars" development wall some will have to cross.
Yes their are basically games that are, Vanguard has zone lines with a very slight pause, it doesn't say loading, but you can tell when you hit the line....APW had 3 copies, but they were public also. The travel that 'zones' you, can be done by foot or boat.
UO has some loading, but I believe that it can all be bypassed too, if you run and take the alternate routes to other lands.
So I think you are wrong, but it doesn't really matter, when people say seamless world, they mean like these games, or where they are 90-95% seamless....To where about everything feels open.
So I would say Vanguard is the most modern seamless MMO, you have many open and non-zoned dungeons, and the only one that may load is APW, technically, since you teleport and it takes like 1-2 seconds or less to load the new screen when you teleport into the dungeon if you are keyed.
So you can always probably find something to haggle about, but I would say overall, UO, VG are seamless.
I was expecting a post like this. I have to ask, did you read my post fully? Or do you not understand the meaning behind it. While i will not take a personal jab at you, as you just tried to jump on me about, i will however break this down for you.
I did not attack wow, in any way shape or form. Infact i credited wow on being extremely close to a Seamless world with their original content. I also gave an example of how wow made the seamles model verry well with my example of elwyn into stowrmwind. I also hinted at the travelt hrew each continent was seamless aswell. I did mention that the loading screen and the instant travel between continents without a proper method of going threw it physicly breaks the definition of a seemless world!
Now, I agree that the natural flow counts. Infact that is one of my main points. Also running for hours threw large zones was not adressed in any of the information i typed out. I have mentioned the being able to visably and physicly move from are to area without a loadign screen does. Note i mentioned the flight paths.
The fact that you see a mountain in the distance, does not mean by definition that you need to be able to axess it. You dont even HAVE to go threw the sided zones or 'painted' zones you mentioned. this has nothing to do with the definition, or the reality of a seamless world.
A Seamless World is a design method for mmorpgs where the world is loaded as you travel. This kind of method makes the game feel more like a world than one that uses zones. That is the definition of a seamless world. In other words, Traveling from a zone or 'map' to another involves no load screens so on so forth. you can literaly physicly walk threw, you can see yourself walk threw smothly without interuptions.
What does any of this have to do with the truth of a seamless world? Note the explained definition above. A full 3d model of the entire zone does not fall into the catagory of seamless. The fact is, when you have painted landscapes or mountians you can climb adds nothing to the topic at all. The transition from areas is what makes or breaks the seam. The painted backrounds or areas/mountains/lakes you cant reach are nothing more then a empty pocket in the physics. You just cant go there, simple as that.. if thers no zone to get there then it cannot harm the effect of a seemless world, that is more relative to the immersion not to my topic. Simple, please stay on topic here.
Also why you say that it is suppased the the current industry standerd, it is not suppased by the hearts and eyes of the gamers. I have seen countless posts.. new and old over years on this site that have people wanting the seamlessness of a world. and loading screens are viewd as a bad thing.
I will give you that. current companies are worried about other things. As a gamer myself looking for a higher level of immersion, a seamless voyage across the ocean to the other continet in wow i would have LOVED. expecialy from the goblin ports on the actual boat! Truthfully travelign across the see would bring great joy to me occasionaly expecialy if the boat was met with a dangerious attack. Like murlocks invading the boat or other creatures that i would have to fend off and then be rewarded for.
Again, off topic as i have already adressed the some of the downsides to creating this type of world.
I have mentioned verry valid arguements in my post if you wread the whole thing, you would realize that.
Also the comment of kicking myself int he back is not appriciated, Please refain from any comments that may be seen as a personal attack as they are agains the rules on these forums.
Yep, I see now. Sorry, I read the first post and felt my blood pressure rise, so I had to toss in my 2 quid worth just to calm my nerves.
"You'll never win an argument with an idiot because he is too stupid to recognize his own defeat." ~Anonymous
Oddly this game did come to mind when i was typing my original post, however if i remember corectly there was some zoneing in that game. It will be added to my future list with concrete reasoning. Thank you for your post
Great the game with the most number of invisible walls ever , gets mentioned.again
You guys are very amusing.
Read my post again: the ONLY thing that will count in world design these days is that new MMO's will have to be designed in full 3D without fake borders.
NO longer painted mountains/forests in the background you can't go to.
And believe me THAT and the huge needed content is the real pain in the ass of every developper ever since 2007.
The OP tried to out smart "seamless" with semantics, a pity his ignorance of the full 3D element spoke volumes in his colored answers.
Actualy, as i mentioned in other replys i have mentioned that the continents in world of warcraft are seemless.
The offset shift when traveling to a diferent zone does not break the definition, which is what this is about. However the instant travel without a alternitve route between the two continents (or 3 now with Wotlk or the completely seperate map of outlands) does. I am running of the literal fact of what a seamless 'world' is. The travel throughout the continents are seemless envoirments, not a world.
I would also like to stress that i was not in anyway attacking or talking down on wow. I simply used it as an example, which while doing so in a sence credited them on the outsatanding work on the envoiremental travel.
So what is the meaning of your thread ?
To justify that "seamless" has its limits too ?
Answer my questions of full 3D and why it is MUCH worse to have painted and fake mountains in the back than calling in the seamless semantics as ... what an ... argument that the earth itself is not seamless ..?
Wurms Online as well. Only loading that is done is when you actually move to an other server. There are 3 servers, you can move between server by swimming across the ocean.
Now it would be interesting to discuss if that makes the Wurm World seamless or not. You could say those three server make one world and thus the world is not seamless. On the other side if you then remove the ability for people to swim over the ocean to an other server, but force them to do so by picking a server it would suddenly be a seamless world(s)?
Also I believe ATITD is seamless.
Also loading does not mean the game is not seamless at all!!! Let's say you use a teleport to go to an enclosed dungeon, but the dungeon is there always and in the same place and it is not instanced, but you have to load. The world is still seamless, your could say the reason the game has to load is not duo to the game, but because of hardware limitation of the user/server.
Seamless means aswell no 2nd dungeon. In wow you go to a dungeon with a team and noone else can enter. How much does that such? The servers are cross servers now, so you can play dungeons with ppl you will never know.
I say Darkfall fills to me seamless. Wow is as far away from seamless as possible. But i se your point with the big lands which is awesome. But still. crossservers? OMFG. How sad is that? Its not an MMORPG, its a MMOsingleplayergame.
since you seem dead set on this, i will humor you. Thoe i will stres this,This is completely off topic from my original post and i dont quite undterstand why you keep bringing it up!
In no way will i try to sit here and say a full 3d world is not important. Infact i actualy agree with you, Having a full 3d world is more important than weather or not there is a load screen or zoneing. The truth to that is, It dont realy bother me, Load screens are nothing but bltips on my screen because i had the luxury of building a powerfull gameing rig that renders most loads all but unoticable.
Now to answer your question about my inital post. It was to explain what a Seamless world realy is. And to explain in deatail the truth behind it. My post about about the fack following the true definiton, Not the inept immagination or those who see it as something it is not. It was a informal post intended to be educational, including problems that come with developers trying to accomplish this design in detail threw mechanics. This does also include things that break it from the defition rendering it to be with seams instead of seamless.
This was directed to those who have been flooding these forums with post claming that games are not persistand, or seamless enough for their taste. They have included blatent butchering of the meaning and seemed that they did not fully understand what it was, which inspired me to type my original post out.
The word World is, when in junction with seamless is what breaks this. It is misleading and down right dishonest to potential consumers. In my example with WOW, I spoke of the transition between two zones, depicting what seamless meant. My further breakdown of the examples shown when i talked about travel between continents, which makes up the World. Adding that seam between the two continents is what disqualifies world of warcraft as a Seamless World. Its as simple as that.
I will not, and have not try to say that the mmorpgs out do not have Seamless Content, or a Basic Seamless enviorment. My argument is against the misuse of the words Seamless World, and what that actualy implies while describeing a video game
I hope this clears that up for you.
No zoneing but you could teleport with rune stone if you wanted, between running and boats you could travel the intire world without zoneing. This would take forever so they introduced runes stones that you could mark anywhere in the world and teleport back to that spot. You had to run to that spot or take a boat to it so you could mark your rune.
From what I actually remember from Lineage 2, it was a seamless world. You could reach every area, and even those you coulnd't reach directly were close enough that you loaded them with the rest of the surrounding world (i.e. you got teleported from one side of a door to another, that teleport/NPC was there just for the purpose of not allowing some players in without a certain item or other conditions met, there wasn't a loading screen or any kind of wait, it happened immediatelly, the other side was already loaded). Dungeons were common to all and non instantiated, every piece of land that could be walked on was reachable by foot (or swim) from any other point of the map.
Sure, there was also a quick-travel (teleport) that actually had a loading screen, but it was entirely optional...
If you're out to establish yourself as an expert in terrain engines I recommend you learn more about common engines and the techniques they use. I've written several terrain engines myself, some of them very large but wouldn't call myself an expert on the subject. Someone that actually uses Unreal Engine could probably explain better how they manage to deliver a seamless world from a segmented terrain, or tried and failed as the case may be. Newer engines such as CryEngine 2 & 3 still do segmented maps but have more sophisticated LOD systems I believe. I've never used it so could be wrong.
I've done a perlin based massive terrain which can do huge maps seamlessly but there are fundamental problems which is why they aren't popular, such as pathing water. I've done more standard segmented worlds which load and unload segments in the background as the camera moves around. A finished game has so much more to do like get the location of other players, and render better trees than I could ever do. This kills it, even a monkey can write a massive seamless world if they only render a barren desert like landscape.
I did mean to get back to this post sooner, however other posters took up that time
.
Your definition is spot on. Thoe i would have to say that being teleported into a boss zone could be damning to the matter, at this point it is up in the air however. I would like to use pieces of the way you explained the definition in a future update to my inital post, with your permision.
The games you have mentioned are noted and i will look into them for a future list i am building for players looking for games with this type of world. Thank you for your post
My use of WoW as an example was just because it's convenient. It comes up a lot in these sorts of threads and there's always the person that says "Actually, WoW's world isn't seamless..." Again, for me, I say that if it feels seamless to me, it's seamless. It's a subjective opinion, and whittling it down to semantics is pointless.
I can't speak for others, but my desire for seamless-feeling worlds is for my own sense of immersion. I like the illusion that the gameworld is a large expanse with stuff going on from coast to coast or border to border. I like the idea of getting on a mount-- either land, sea, or air-- and going from one place to another without a loading screen. Now before the predictable "WOW HAS LOADING SCREENS!!!!1111" retort rears its head, I realize this. Each continent feels seamless and that's good enough for me.
EQ2, by contrast, reminds me at every turn that each area is a compartment unto itself and might as well be a large room in a large house. Its version of Norrath never felt like a world to me, rather a series of levels. I don't care if tricks are involved to fool me into believing an illusion. If the illusion is convincing, the developer gets my kudos. If an illusion is what it takes to pull the overall feel off, then I say have at it. Getting fooled into believing something is seamless is a lot better than being hit with a loading screen every time you open a door.
"You'll never win an argument with an idiot because he is too stupid to recognize his own defeat." ~Anonymous
I am not trying to establish myself as an expert of anything. I am simply pointing out the truth of what a seamless world is, which is why i titled my post the way i did. On the part of whitch i mentioned problems while creating this type of game i only listed the pieces that i actualy know, and will in no way try to say i know more about them. the fact is i dont, they were simply examples to clerify some 'foggy' areas.
Im am intrested in what you have said thoe. Would you mind explaining in a little more detail with your points either here or in a pm? You have my intrest peaked.
Fallen Earth. I didn't read every word of every post so sorry if it has already been mentioned.
I can agree with you, and i was not goint to jump on you about how wow is not seamless. Actualy we both did the same thing in a sence.. we both used wow as an example.. nothing more. I also enjoy the seamless fealing of a world, weather it actualy is or is not. Immersion is one of the most important things to me.. I also like to hit the run/walk button and stroll threw cities and admire the work put into each corner.. makes me 'feal' more intune with the crafted world if you will.
to reply to one of your earlier posts. Im sorry if i got you agitated with my initial post, The truth is the misuse the the term gets me iritable.. which is sort of why i posted this in the first place. It was simply posted to inform those of what it is, and what it actualy means.
I dont belive it has.thank you. Thoe as i have asked others, could you expand on that game a little further? load screens/ instances/ map travel with no other way of getting from point a to b? I belvie you can find more examples of what im asking in previous posts on this thred.
The only seemless game is Darkfall and its a pile steaming poo....
On the topic of WoW being seemless no its not. Is it the closes game to being seemless with any extent of content yes.
Yes, they could make the boat trip from EK to Kal without a loading screen the trip would take about 30-40mins of just a boat trip (thats in a straight line). Its impratical for a game like WoW to make completely seemless world. You could not walk on your own because of Fatigue which seems like a real concern sense I don't think you can swim to europe from america can you? If you can I will appluad you and ask for proof. WoW would have been a completely seemless game if it was PRATICAL too do. It just is not. It's still not practical too make a game with no loading screens its just not. Yes, it would be awsome too be in a world that had no loading screens but to be honest I don't have to compete with 12million other people for 1 blue item from HoO.
Yes, your correct the defination of seemless not many games fit under but I don't think a GOOD game could.
Sure, go ahead
Just my opinion on teleports: there is few different types of teleports. One type is sort of "generic" ones, they simple are for players convience without any backroung on them, they destroy seamless world feeling. But there is also second type which could be called "incorporated" ones. They fit in the game world and even increase it's immersiveness (thats prolly right word). Just look at fantasy books, there is plenty with some sort of matter transfer, teleports, wormholes, dimmensional rifts or whichever words you choose to use. Only things different is name and minor details. So they can be called Teleports as that word is right. And those things doesnt weaken those books, it makes them even more intersting.
It also gives enjoyment to players. Maybe not fully conscious, but it is as good. Just think, how many people is finding idea of almost instantly covering thousands of miles fun and interesting. Just ask yourself and think, wouldnt it be fun to be able to be in few different places at "same" time. Doesnt it make you smile? lol
Also in case of Lineage2 teleporters (NPC) usually requires items which would contain huge ammount of energy (talking about entering bosses areas) and each person would need to bring one. Those item varied from stones gathering from locations with high energy (cant explain it excatly, it just understanding you get after getting through quests/lore) to Angel's blood (which is very obvious imo, as angels are supposed to be exteremely powerful beings and etc). Those things made the world even more immersive.
And people should look less how devs define their world and look more like how it feels. Best 2 examples which comes to mind is Eve Online and Lineage 2. Eve even though is seamless, but it would take days (probably) to travel from station to nearest next station. But still you know possibility exists, after all it is open space. So looking at it you could say world is extremely sharded and divided to zones which "loading screen" is warp animations, but it feels seamless and thats what matters. Now lets take Lineage2. Locations are close but paths between them are sort of empty roads. So after running once you dont want to do that again. So you start you using town teleporters (from town to town) and return scrolls (teleports you to nearest town), and by using those functions you can easily forget it seamless world, you just see it as plenty of zones which arent connected by any way. Talking from my own experience. STORY ABOUT LINEAGE2 AND SEAMLESS UNFEELING. MIGHT WANT TO SKIP IF BORED ALREADY. So I was back in Lineage2 with few friends (bastards talked me in), as it wasnt first time around I knew all locations of best leveling mobs and quests. So it is simple run there kill that for 1hour, use SoE (Scroll of Escape, back to town), buy more potions, new weapons. Then you go to town teleporter, get to next town and repeat. So after reaching higher level, someone told me about new leveling location, I started running (was stupid moment, sleep depravation or any other reason), so after 30 mins I reach town to which I could teleported and I am like "WTF", after putting brains to use, I finally remembered that world was seamless. END OF STORY. So to sum it up, it is as important for world to be seamless, as to give "correct vibe/feeling" that it is really seamless.
ADDITION. A bit offtopic.
Seamless doesnt mean immersive/not immersive. I will use WoW in my example and I dont wanna this to turn to flamming session. If you have on what you disagree heavily then PM ME. So to point. No matter what Blizzard would do even making all dungeons accesible without teleport and allowing any number of people to compete/complete them it wouldnt make it feel seamless. That is because WoW was made to be immersive for casual player. When you look at it from point of logic (even fantasy logic) there is many faults. Like there isnt enough fields to feed people, not enough forests to feed ever burning fires of Stormwind (or that dwarf capital) and so on. Why is that you may ask? Reason is simple, who would want to stroll through fields for 10 minutes or hour? Almost no one. So there is no reason to include those locations. So if you know they must be there, just inaccessible that means world is not seamless as there is locations which you cant go.
Also even in game like Darkfall which can be called seamless, that seamlessness is pissing me off. You go for 20 minutes and see copy/paste locations. If I got to freaking unspoiled nature I expect to see animals, or bit varying nature, if I reach forest I expect it to be FOREST NOT FREAKING 30 TREES.... Even if there is a bit more trees I excpect to see or hear animals and birds, so I expect to be able to hunt them. In seamless world I expect to get exploration feeling, by finding "natural wonders" or at least beautiful scenaries. But in MMORPGs seamless worlds are just illusion or play of words to meet definition. In seamless world you have same active zones (around towns, quests hubs, mob camps) and then rest 50-80% (may varie on games like EVE which are empty 99.9999999% (after all it is open space lol)) of world which are FREAKING EMPTY. Do you call it seamless world? By definition yes, by COMMON SENSE I say NO FUCKING WAY...
Ever since the beginning of computer RPGs, be they MMO or single player, lands have been abstracted. Take Oblivion, for example. In the game, Cyrodiil is only 5 by 3 real world miles. The state of Rhode Island is bigger, and it's the smallest state in the US. How are we to believe a rinky-dink land is the home of 6 counties, plus the Imperial district? Easy. It's abstracted for gameplay reasons. While it's fun to fantasize about Daggerfall-sized gameworlds, the impractical travel times would get old and everyone would end up using some sort of fast travel or teleport anyway.
There's also the practicality of creating content to fill such a space. Development times would run in the decades. So, we're given abstract representations of a world. A handful of farms represents the agricultural part of the civilization. A village with a handful of buildings represents a settlement of 200-400 people, while major cities represent larger metropolitan homes for 1000-2000 people.
It seems to me that insisting on 1:1 fidelity with a real world equivilant in terms of land area, population make-up, and supporting industry/infrastructure flies in the face of what these games are designed to provide, which is a bit of escapism.
"You'll never win an argument with an idiot because he is too stupid to recognize his own defeat." ~Anonymous
As long as loading screens and zones don't happen every 5 minutes, they don't bother me in the least. I have never understood why people care so much about whether they see a loading screen or not.