PvP does not belong in any mmorpg, period.....only the scriptors, exploiters and... let's face it the ones that can't hang with us FPS gamers cause they suck want it.
Or, they prefer a different type of gameplay. Not everyone wants to run with a gun on the same couple of maps shooting people for hours on end. It's all about taste. FYI, I've been playing FPS games since Unreal and Tribes, and I can state with confidence that FPS games have a lot more people who exploit and cheat. It's almost like a hobby for FPS gamers.
I've been around alot longer than most of you people out here and only 1 title came close to getting fighting other players right. SWG in the first 4 months of it's original release incorporated it pretty good.
Guild Wars, Shadowbane, Ultima, Eve, DAoC, and even WoW are good examples of well integrated PVP. I'm not much for GW personally, but I know of their strong community and Arenanet's care when handling PVP in their games.
Other than that leave fighting other players to the genre it belongs to, not the wussies in mmorpg's that cry for it.
Now, you just sound like someone who got ganked in STV one too many times. :P
I'm glad to read that I'm not the only one thinking real PvP only works in FPS, so far. The major point is in FPS there's no such thing as balance, levels, nor you see the opponents HP.
This is an apple and oranges argument. I'll explain more below.
I don't understand why the majority of MMO PvPers needs to see other's equipment stats, HP bar and level. It removes mostly all elements of surprise and I would say the FUN. Better play chess then.
You don't seem to understand that these games are RPGs. The central core mechanics of Most, if not all RPG's are about complex stat systems, which are improved via experience, armor, etc. It's how they work.
There's also a good bit of task management in RPG's, meaning, you're going to be doing more than one thing at one time. A PvP healer might be healing multiple Allies, while a Melee PvPer is thrashing his opponents armor and attack abilities while damaging him.
On another side of the field are FPS games, which is purely focused on twitch gameplay. It's more about who reacts first (Or in some cases, who has the faster internet connection. Which can also be true for MMORPG's, but I digress..) . There is some strategy, but it's more about who can shoot the fastest.
Though, lately it seems that FPS games have been catching onto the class trend that TF2 started, and combining that with the "rank" system. You could say that FPS developers have been taking some notes from RPG's.It might also be worth noting that FPS games aren't just shooting, and there's a lot of balance involved in making FPS games as well, but I won't get into that.
Which, I'm not saying isn't fun. Hell, I've played my share of awesome online FPS games: Tribes, Unread Tournament, Halo (2), TF2, CS:S, Battle Field. All fun games that are worth the money I invested in them.
My point is, it is apples and oranges. Some people prefer complex gaming mechanics that compliment their PvP preference, some people prefer a simple twitch gameplay.
Now back to TOR, I don't think either BioWare sucks at making PvP nor are the best studio in that field. Future will tell us. I would say I'm expecting something along WoW/War. However until they, eventually, reveal larger Warzones as others I'm not that thrilled by enhanced arenas. At this point I'd rather play AoC sieges, even if they aren't perfect.
Bioware has stated that there will be open world PvP along with Warzones, as well as other Warzones in the game. Seems like there might be a broken record here in this forum, but you might want to look into the game before passing down judgment so quickly.
=> I didn't say there won't be open PvP. I was just mentioning the limited size (for now) of the Warzones. And at this point even without trying out TOR Warzones, if it's limited to 8vs8 I'd rather play AoC sieges.
Also there's a major interrogation about PvP: will there be any companion less Warzones?
I don't think it will matter all that much. I'll explain more below.
Not everyone is fan of playing pet classes and while I always play hunter type characters I don't look forward having everyone around bringing one. First because it will be messier then contrary to animals it's harder to instantly identify companions among humanoid players.
Well, for one, I'm sure there will be some way to identify companion characters on the battle field. I don't think Bioware would be so messy as to not include a feature that does so.
=> players owner's name will be tagged next to the companion name. I will still be messy and not as easily identifiable as animals vs humans on a battlefield.
Secondly, Companion characters are considerably weaker than player characters, and probably won't aide people much in PvP combat. I wouldn't be surprised if some people chose not to bring a companion into pvp soley because they're useless.
=> Game play reviews points at companions 33% of the damage done by the player (Player killing 3 mobs while the companion owns one) However we don't know what kind of AC was the player nor what kit had the companion. With numbers in that range companions are pretty much required in PvP. Who can afford to loose so much DPS?
But I think time will tell on that one. I'll reserve judgment until I actually play the game. (Or until more information comes out.)
=> Right we need more infos, still I'm a bit worried at this time
Sorry for answering late on that one.
First I agree with you we are indeed comparing apples and oranges. That and in both there are people exploiting the system.
I don't think we need to dig into the game play differences of both still one is based much more on dexterity than the other and there is much less balance issues in the FPS than in the MMO genre.
Coming first from P&P RPG then FPS then MMO I dare saying for a fully enjoyable PvP experience you don't need to see opponents stats, HP bar and I would even say level. Most of the players that need them, do use them to play safer PvP, if not ganking game play.
There's no such thing a safe PvP. Either you're into PvP or you're not. Making it safe mostly removes all the fun from the equation. You should be surprised in PvP, you should always expect the unexpected. You should not know how close to death is your enemy until (s)he hits the dust. You should be stressed out when fighting anyone in PvP, at least the first few seconds, until you really assess what might be the outcome.
hmm... damn last time i called a troll by the name i got "moderated" instantly, and was pointed that instead i should report such person, now post was already reported and still topic is getting longer and longer... lets hope Mods will get to work tommorow
Don't count on it.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
Give FFA PvP to the open world loving crowd and they will want even more? Guesss what it is? Loss of xp/items and some form of looting your opponent's stuff. They call it risk, I call it ruining my game. Darkfall > this way... This is supposed to be a great MMO, not an FFA zergfest...
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
I haven't read this whole thread but I did go to a link I found on the 1st page that showed all knowen information on the game and found this:
The designers from Warhammer are working on the PvP for TOR
That right there means I'm not touching this game.
The designers from Warhammer also were the same designers for DAOC and from what I understand, PVP in Warhammer is actually one of the few things it has going for it.
There's no such thing a safe PvP. Either you're into PvP or you're not. Making it safe mostly removes all the fun from the equation. You should be surprised in PvP, you should always expect the unexpected. You should not know how close to death is your enemy until (s)he hits the dust. You should be stressed out when fighting anyone in PvP, at least the first few seconds, until you really assess what might be the outcome.
This is the only part of your argument I have a problem with Deewe, so it's the only part I will reference. The problem I see is that you are trying to force YOUR desires on everyone else here. Persoanlly I agree with how you feel here, but many do not and should not be forced into YOUR idea of fun.
I think that probably the best way BioWare could handle this would be to make health bars on foes optional for each player. That way we all can use or not use them as we please, but do not force anyone else to conform to our own idea of fun.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
This is a pve game, first and foremost. I'd rather they work on getting the pve right, out of the gate, than worrying about all the bullshit that comes with pvp.
That's fine if that's your opinion. I just hope not one of the Developers of this game share it with you.
This is a pve game, first and foremost. I'd rather they work on getting the pve right, out of the gate, than worrying about all the bullshit that comes with pvp.
That's fine if that's your opinion. I just hope not one of the Developers of this game share it with you.
I have been following the game for awhile and just looking at some of the skills that people have seen I think the devs had pvp in mind when it was built. Almost all the classes have a self heal and a stun breaker, and looking at the warzone video you can clearly seen that classes have counter moves to one another.
This is a pve game, first and foremost. I'd rather they work on getting the pve right, out of the gate, than worrying about all the bullshit that comes with pvp.
That's fine if that's your opinion. I just hope not one of the Developers of this game share it with you.
I have been following the game for awhile and just looking at some of the skills that people have seen I think the devs had pvp in mind when it was built. Almost all the classes have a self heal and a stun breaker, and looking at the warzone video you can clearly seen that classes have counter moves to one another.
I have to agree with you Nazgol, but at the same time I think Ginaz has it right too. The devs do seem to have PvP on their minds when designing this game, but PvE is the more important design decision this game is geared for.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
There's no such thing a safe PvP. Either you're into PvP or you're not. Making it safe mostly removes all the fun from the equation. You should be surprised in PvP, you should always expect the unexpected. You should not know how close to death is your enemy until (s)he hits the dust. You should be stressed out when fighting anyone in PvP, at least the first few seconds, until you really assess what might be the outcome.
This is the only part of your argument I have a problem with Deewe, so it's the only part I will reference. The problem I see is that you are trying to force YOUR desires on everyone else here. Persoanlly I agree with how you feel here, but many do not and should not be forced into YOUR idea of fun.
I think that probably the best way BioWare could handle this would be to make health bars on foes optional for each player. That way we all can use or not use them as we please, but do not force anyone else to conform to our own idea of fun.
Right that's my view, coming from the fact that you don't see opponents health bar in FPS (ref for balanced PvP) nor in real life either and that I tend to think adding some uncertainty increase the fun factor.
However without health bar a player needs to get a feedback on the general status of an opponent. My point is more to make the feedback less precise, with let's say 3-4 status only. For example, contrary than with health bars you would not know how close to death is an opponent.
Now for TOR unless they specifically design the PvP around invisible health bar I don't see it working and it would be a waste of dev time to make it optional. A bit like a permadeath server, either it's for everyone on the server or it doesn't work.
This is a pve game, first and foremost. I'd rather they work on getting the pve right, out of the gate, than worrying about all the bullshit that comes with pvp.
That's fine if that's your opinion. I just hope not one of the Developers of this game share it with you.
I have been following the game for awhile and just looking at some of the skills that people have seen I think the devs had pvp in mind when it was built. Almost all the classes have a self heal and a stun breaker, and looking at the warzone video you can clearly seen that classes have counter moves to one another.
I have to agree with you Nazgol, but at the same time I think Ginaz has it right too. The devs do seem to have PvP on their minds when designing this game, but PvE is the more important design decision this game is geared for.
Hey Gman. This is one of those rare times I don't necessarily agree with you. I don't have any specific info to disagree either. My point is that they have released very little info regarding PVP. I think we may all be pleasantly surprised with whatever they do offer in this realm. What we do know is that they have a team of people focused on PVP, many of these folks with PVP experience in other games. With so little info released, I'm not sure how any of us can deduce that PVE is the more import design decision other than the fact that they have shown more PVE to date. With that logic, up until November you could have said the same thing about crafting. Now we have recently learned just how extensive that may end up being with leaks at certain websites confirming that depth.
I hope that they do either 1 of this 2 things if not I suggest that they might as well not implement it.
1. Implement something like EverQuest's faction change quest. 2. Implement some spy/espionage/sabotage quests or abilities to rename and cloak you as a jedi/sith to sneak in and mass ambush the opposing side.
They need to give us options to do self balancing for factions especially 2 sided faction mmorpgs as many develeopers have proven in the past to be incapable of performing faction balance for 2 factions mmorpgs.
This is a pve game, first and foremost. I'd rather they work on getting the pve right, out of the gate, than worrying about all the bullshit that comes with pvp.
That's fine if that's your opinion. I just hope not one of the Developers of this game share it with you.
I have been following the game for awhile and just looking at some of the skills that people have seen I think the devs had pvp in mind when it was built. Almost all the classes have a self heal and a stun breaker, and looking at the warzone video you can clearly seen that classes have counter moves to one another.
I have to agree with you Nazgol, but at the same time I think Ginaz has it right too. The devs do seem to have PvP on their minds when designing this game, but PvE is the more important design decision this game is geared for.
Hey Gman. This is one of those rare times I don't necessarily agree with you. I don't have any specific info to disagree either. My point is that they have released very little info regarding PVP. I think we may all be pleasantly surprised with whatever they do offer in this realm. What we do know is that they have a team of people focused on PVP, many of these folks with PVP experience in other games. With so little info released, I'm not sure how any of us can deduce that PVE is the more import design decision other than the fact that they have shown more PVE to date. With that logic, up until November you could have said the same thing about crafting. Now we have recently learned just how extensive that may end up being with leaks at certain websites confirming that depth.
Agreed on all points but one. With the information we have now, I can not see how big a part PvP will play in this game and have to assume the game is more geared to PvE as most MMO's are. PvE is after all the bigger of the draw for the more people and PvP for most games is that added feature for a certain segment of gamers. At least that is my experience. Along the same lines, we do NOT have enough information on crafting, either, to know how much it will drive the economy. I am sure it will be a big part of the game, but that is only my personal feeling on this so far.
BioWare is going the smart route (marketing wise) and only giving us small glimpses to draw conclusions on, but based on the history I have with MMO's I feel my conclusions are pretty solid UNTIL BioWare shows me more to make a more informed conclusion from. This game obviously has PvP and Crafting, but so far only time will tell how big a part of the game these two options will be. Personally I hope I am wrong about PvP and right about Crafting since these two features ARE such big draws to a game.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
This is a pve game, first and foremost. I'd rather they work on getting the pve right, out of the gate, than worrying about all the bullshit that comes with pvp.
That's fine if that's your opinion. I just hope not one of the Developers of this game share it with you.
I have been following the game for awhile and just looking at some of the skills that people have seen I think the devs had pvp in mind when it was built. Almost all the classes have a self heal and a stun breaker, and looking at the warzone video you can clearly seen that classes have counter moves to one another.
I have to agree with you Nazgol, but at the same time I think Ginaz has it right too. The devs do seem to have PvP on their minds when designing this game, but PvE is the more important design decision this game is geared for.
Hey Gman. This is one of those rare times I don't necessarily agree with you. I don't have any specific info to disagree either. My point is that they have released very little info regarding PVP. I think we may all be pleasantly surprised with whatever they do offer in this realm. What we do know is that they have a team of people focused on PVP, many of these folks with PVP experience in other games. With so little info released, I'm not sure how any of us can deduce that PVE is the more import design decision other than the fact that they have shown more PVE to date. With that logic, up until November you could have said the same thing about crafting. Now we have recently learned just how extensive that may end up being with leaks at certain websites confirming that depth.
Agreed on all points but one. With the information we have now, I can not see how big a part PvP will play in this game and have to assume the game is more geared to PvE as most MMO's are. PvE is after all the bigger of the draw for the more people and PvP for most games is that added feature for a certain segment of gamers. At least that is my experience. Along the same lines, we do NOT have enough information on crafting, either, to know how much it will drive the economy. I am sure it will be a big part of the game, but that is only my personal feeling on this so far.
BioWare is going the smart route (marketing wise) and only giving us small glimpses to draw conclusions on, but based on the history I have with MMO's I feel my conclusions are pretty solid UNTIL BioWare shows me more to make a more informed conclusion from. This game obviously has PvP and Crafting, but so far only time will tell how big a part of the game these two options will be. Personally I hope I am wrong about PvP and right about Crafting since these two features ARE such big draws to a game.
I agree. I think PVE will be the main focus of the game, but from what I have seen, I think that PVP is heavily incorporated as well. We seen in the Mysteries of the Old Republic video where both factions were fighting over what appeared to be a raid/dungeon.
Comments
Sorry for answering late on that one.
First I agree with you we are indeed comparing apples and oranges. That and in both there are people exploiting the system.
I don't think we need to dig into the game play differences of both still one is based much more on dexterity than the other and there is much less balance issues in the FPS than in the MMO genre.
Coming first from P&P RPG then FPS then MMO I dare saying for a fully enjoyable PvP experience you don't need to see opponents stats, HP bar and I would even say level. Most of the players that need them, do use them to play safer PvP, if not ganking game play.
There's no such thing a safe PvP. Either you're into PvP or you're not. Making it safe mostly removes all the fun from the equation. You should be surprised in PvP, you should always expect the unexpected. You should not know how close to death is your enemy until (s)he hits the dust. You should be stressed out when fighting anyone in PvP, at least the first few seconds, until you really assess what might be the outcome.
Don't count on it.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
This thread is crrrraaaazy! lol
Give FFA PvP to the open world loving crowd and they will want even more? Guesss what it is? Loss of xp/items and some form of looting your opponent's stuff. They call it risk, I call it ruining my game. Darkfall > this way... This is supposed to be a great MMO, not an FFA zergfest...
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
I haven't read this whole thread but I did go to a link I found on the 1st page that showed all knowen information on the game and found this:
The designers from Warhammer are working on the PvP for TOR
That right there means I'm not touching this game.
The designers from Warhammer also were the same designers for DAOC and from what I understand, PVP in Warhammer is actually one of the few things it has going for it.
In Bioware we trust!
To be exact, the scenarios were the best PvP featured offered on WAR.
But this is SW:TOR and the focus perhaps lies elsewhere and not in open world PvP as some people might have liked.
This is the only part of your argument I have a problem with Deewe, so it's the only part I will reference. The problem I see is that you are trying to force YOUR desires on everyone else here. Persoanlly I agree with how you feel here, but many do not and should not be forced into YOUR idea of fun.
I think that probably the best way BioWare could handle this would be to make health bars on foes optional for each player. That way we all can use or not use them as we please, but do not force anyone else to conform to our own idea of fun.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
That's fine if that's your opinion. I just hope not one of the Developers of this game share it with you.
I have been following the game for awhile and just looking at some of the skills that people have seen I think the devs had pvp in mind when it was built. Almost all the classes have a self heal and a stun breaker, and looking at the warzone video you can clearly seen that classes have counter moves to one another.
In Bioware we trust!
I have to agree with you Nazgol, but at the same time I think Ginaz has it right too. The devs do seem to have PvP on their minds when designing this game, but PvE is the more important design decision this game is geared for.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
Right that's my view, coming from the fact that you don't see opponents health bar in FPS (ref for balanced PvP) nor in real life either and that I tend to think adding some uncertainty increase the fun factor.
However without health bar a player needs to get a feedback on the general status of an opponent. My point is more to make the feedback less precise, with let's say 3-4 status only. For example, contrary than with health bars you would not know how close to death is an opponent.
Now for TOR unless they specifically design the PvP around invisible health bar I don't see it working and it would be a waste of dev time to make it optional. A bit like a permadeath server, either it's for everyone on the server or it doesn't work.
Hey Gman. This is one of those rare times I don't necessarily agree with you. I don't have any specific info to disagree either. My point is that they have released very little info regarding PVP. I think we may all be pleasantly surprised with whatever they do offer in this realm. What we do know is that they have a team of people focused on PVP, many of these folks with PVP experience in other games. With so little info released, I'm not sure how any of us can deduce that PVE is the more import design decision other than the fact that they have shown more PVE to date. With that logic, up until November you could have said the same thing about crafting. Now we have recently learned just how extensive that may end up being with leaks at certain websites confirming that depth.
There Is Always Hope!
1. Implement something like EverQuest's faction change quest.
2. Implement some spy/espionage/sabotage quests or abilities to rename and cloak you as a jedi/sith to sneak in and mass ambush the opposing side.
They need to give us options to do self balancing for factions especially 2 sided faction mmorpgs as many develeopers have proven in the past to be incapable of performing faction balance for 2 factions mmorpgs.
Agreed on all points but one. With the information we have now, I can not see how big a part PvP will play in this game and have to assume the game is more geared to PvE as most MMO's are. PvE is after all the bigger of the draw for the more people and PvP for most games is that added feature for a certain segment of gamers. At least that is my experience. Along the same lines, we do NOT have enough information on crafting, either, to know how much it will drive the economy. I am sure it will be a big part of the game, but that is only my personal feeling on this so far.
BioWare is going the smart route (marketing wise) and only giving us small glimpses to draw conclusions on, but based on the history I have with MMO's I feel my conclusions are pretty solid UNTIL BioWare shows me more to make a more informed conclusion from. This game obviously has PvP and Crafting, but so far only time will tell how big a part of the game these two options will be. Personally I hope I am wrong about PvP and right about Crafting since these two features ARE such big draws to a game.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
I agree. I think PVE will be the main focus of the game, but from what I have seen, I think that PVP is heavily incorporated as well. We seen in the Mysteries of the Old Republic video where both factions were fighting over what appeared to be a raid/dungeon.
In Bioware we trust!