... Having to camp a boss spawn for hours is NOT FUN. That does not make an MMO, hate to break it to you.
There are ways to deal with that other than intances, but it requires more work from the devs.
Lazy devs I say... or maybe they are just pushed that way by the suits.
All in all, its the laziest way of doing MMO's apart from the lobby game calling themself MMO's but obviously aren't.
Didn't your teachers ever tell you that if you're not providing solutions you're part of the problem? Please, indulge us with these other ways of dealing with boss camping, higher level characters logging out and camping lower level bosses/instances, the 'tagging' game etc.
Having a mechanic to trigger the boss with some key item is an example.
Having a totally random spawn is another. ( time & place )
Make it that part of an epic quest & that everyone fighting the boss gets some kind of reward from the quest giver if they meet the requirements.
Thats just a few ideas & I'm no professional...
Edit: But you also have to accept the fact that you choose to play an MM ORPG & that sharing the world with others is part of the game design.
I'm sure you don't have to think very hard why neither of those suggestions would work. Other groups can very easily tamper with your encounter. Griefing and such come to mind. Griefing alone is a very valid reason to use instancing in my opinion.
Oh and thanks professor for providing my the definition of MM in MMORPG. I was lost, but now I'm found. Instances let you take on a challenge with your friends without having to worry about some random group of douchebags ruining your fun.
You make it seem like these instances are being done solo...
No, I don't see how you can grief a triggered boss or one that everyone can attack freely or spawned randomly sorry.
Douches are everywhere & its your duty to report them so they get ban. Thats easy enough... ofc that has more impact in a game that takes more time than a month to get to level cap & where you depend on other to be able to get there.
With your attitude you are obviously not interested in other opinion than your own, so I'm done here.
Have fun! If instance is your thing the current market catters to you & you have plenty of choices.
I'm sure you don't have to think very hard why neither of those suggestions would work. Other groups can very easily tamper with your encounter. Griefing and such come to mind. Griefing alone is a very valid reason to use instancing in my opinion.
Oh and thanks professor for providing my the definition of MM in MMORPG. I was lost, but now I'm found. Instances let you take on a challenge with your friends without having to worry about some random group of douchebags ruining your fun.
You make it seem like these instances are being done solo...
Griefing is not a reason to isolate players from one-another in an MMORPG. It's a bandaid that by now is becoming very rancid and full of infection and decay.
Random group of douchebags ruining your fun? By what, killing mobs? Casting Spells? PvP? Gank? forming groups? 'standing too close to you'? What is it that makes someone a douchebag in this example you're giving? Because every excuse I've heard to justify instances usually stems from "I don't like that other players have access to this part of the game. It should be for me. That's MY gear. that's MY mob. that's MY spawn. that's MY spot. " People just generally not wanted to interract with others in the gameworld. Ganking, for example... yes it is frustrating when you're on the lower end of it, but if it bothers someone so bad that they'd rather sit in an instance to be "safe" and un-bothered, then why would they have rolled on a pvp server?
Wouldn't a single player game be better for this mentality?
There's just so many games out there that I wish some of these new mmo players would have went to instead of causing such a horrible shift in development in the mmo genre. If i don't like Big Macs, I won't order them. I wouldn't even go to McDonald's if I was displeased enough, but what I wouldn't do is sit in McDonald's all day, eating Big Mac's, complaining to the manager that I don't like them and they need to change the recipe to suit my own likes. That's so selfish.
Griefing is a very valid reason by killing mobs, setting off boss scripts, ganking. You seem to have it in your head that people are doing instances solo. I can't help with that because even you have to know how horribly wrong that is.
People interact with each other just fine in the games you're bashing as being anti-social and non-massive. You're riding this whole "people don't want to interact with others" horse right into the water my friend because you don't back up anything you say.
You're telling me you like the idea of working hard through a dungeon with your group so that another group can come right before you pull the boss and steal them? Interacting is fun...
How about getting to a boss spawn only to find that he's not even there. Interacting is fun. How about having 2-3 groups all sitting in a room jumping around hitting tab to target the boss as soon as he spawns. Tag war interactions seem fun...
You're at a new encounter and you just wiped, man thta was tough. Oh well, when you got back another group already cleared it, better luck next time. Interacting with other people is so much fun.
Uh oh someone just dc'ed right before the boss. Can't sit around and wait for your buddy to get back because there are other groups breathing down your neck to get at the boss. Poor pepito gets left out. I'm sure he's loving the interaction.
My level 15 group just made it through our first dungeon, woohoo. We're 2 pulls away from the last boss. Oh damn, high lvl douche bag just logged into his character and went on to solo the boss faster than our measly little group ever could. Interactions are fun!
Please sign me up for this MMO.. lol.
You answered yourself with your very last paragraph. That's exactly the point. People don't want what you're talking about. An MMO like that would be a niche one at best.
lol you're going on about how dungeons should be open and not instanced, a world should be open and this and that. Your actions should have meaning blah blah, -insert typical sandbox argument here-, because that's what YOU want. So yes, you are being selfish
... Having to camp a boss spawn for hours is NOT FUN. That does not make an MMO, hate to break it to you.
There are ways to deal with that other than intances, but it requires more work from the devs.
Lazy devs I say... or maybe they are just pushed that way by the suits.
All in all, its the laziest way of doing MMO's apart from the lobby game calling themself MMO's but obviously aren't.
Didn't your teachers ever tell you that if you're not providing solutions you're part of the problem? Please, indulge us with these other ways of dealing with boss camping, higher level characters logging out and camping lower level bosses/instances, the 'tagging' game etc.
Having a mechanic to trigger the boss with some key item is an example.
Having a totally random spawn is another. ( time & place )
Make it that part of an epic quest & that everyone fighting the boss gets some kind of reward from the quest giver if they meet the requirements.
Thats just a few ideas & I'm no professional...
Edit: But you also have to accept the fact that you choose to play an MM ORPG & that sharing the world with others is part of the game design.
I'm sure you don't have to think very hard why neither of those suggestions would work. Other groups can very easily tamper with your encounter. Griefing and such come to mind. Griefing alone is a very valid reason to use instancing in my opinion.
Oh and thanks professor for providing my the definition of MM in MMORPG. I was lost, but now I'm found. Instances let you take on a challenge with your friends without having to worry about some random group of douchebags ruining your fun.
You make it seem like these instances are being done solo...
Then read it again please. I said, they are made for 5-10 players. And 5 players are not massive. Thats all i say. Im happy with 5 player games, just dont call them massive, because i dont get the massive gameplay experience if i kill a boss with 5 of my friends. I like to do it, and i would still do it, but i would never call it massive.
Here is an example: 1. You go down to an instance with 5 of your friends. You work hard wipe 15 times on a boss. Then you kill it, you are happy, you are statisfied. 2. You go down to a dungeon with 5 of your friends, you wipe 10 times, then another group comes. You ask them to join you, you will share loot at the end. You manage to kill the boss with 10 players. You share loot, you are happy you are statisfied.
1. is called a multiplayer game
2. is called a massively multiplayer game
You decide which one you like, i like both, all i ask is: Dont mix the 2 please. If i pay for a massive experience i want to get massive experience.
Here is an example: 1. You go down to an instance with 5 of your friends. You work hard wipe 15 times on a boss. Then you kill it, you are happy, you are statisfied. 2. You go down to a dungeon with 5 of your friends, you wipe 10 times, then another group comes. You ask them to join you, you will share loot at the end. You manage to kill the boss with 10 players. You share loot, you are happy you are statisfied.
1. is called a multiplayer game
2. is called a massively multiplayer game
You decide which one you like, i like both, all i ask is: Dont mix the 2 please. If i pay for a massive experience i want to get massive experience.
3. You stand in a city alone. You open a tool that puts you in a group with people who aren't even on you're server. Loading screen, The tool transports you from where you're standing to the inside of an instance, with the 4 other people. the 5 of you go through the dungeon and kill the boss and get your loot. The other 4 disband, not a word spoken. Loading screen. You're back in the spot you were in, alone, about to open the tool again. Rinse repeat.
Then read it again please. I said, they are made for 5-10 players. And 5 players are not massive. Thats all i say. Im happy with 5 player games, just dont call them massive, because i dont get the massive gameplay experience if i kill a boss with 5 of my friends. I like to do it, and i would still do it, but i would never call it massive.
Here is an example: 1. You go down to an instance with 5 of your friends. You work hard wipe 15 times on a boss. Then you kill it, you are happy, you are statisfied. 2. You go down to a dungeon with 5 of your friends, you wipe 10 times, then another group comes. You ask them to join you, you will share loot at the end. You manage to kill the boss with 10 players. You share loot, you are happy you are statisfied.
1. is called a multiplayer game
2. is called a massively multiplayer game
You decide which one you like, i like both, all i ask is: Dont mix the 2 please. If i pay for a massive experience i want to get massive experience.
Yeah this is getting silly
is 10? massive? well I dont know maybe 30? well could be but I really think its 1000000? yeah but is your experience any different because you cant really get to know more than 10 people at a time anyway? well yeah but its cool..
I guess as a Darkfall player I fail to see the problem because in the game if you have the social skills to gather up your closest 100 friends you can and its very cool if you can pull it off.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
... Having to camp a boss spawn for hours is NOT FUN. That does not make an MMO, hate to break it to you.
There are ways to deal with that other than intances, but it requires more work from the devs.
Lazy devs I say... or maybe they are just pushed that way by the suits.
All in all, its the laziest way of doing MMO's apart from the lobby game calling themself MMO's but obviously aren't.
Didn't your teachers ever tell you that if you're not providing solutions you're part of the problem? Please, indulge us with these other ways of dealing with boss camping, higher level characters logging out and camping lower level bosses/instances, the 'tagging' game etc.
Having a mechanic to trigger the boss with some key item is an example.
Having a totally random spawn is another. ( time & place )
Make it that part of an epic quest & that everyone fighting the boss gets some kind of reward from the quest giver if they meet the requirements.
Thats just a few ideas & I'm no professional...
Edit: But you also have to accept the fact that you choose to play an MM ORPG & that sharing the world with others is part of the game design.
I'm sure you don't have to think very hard why neither of those suggestions would work. Other groups can very easily tamper with your encounter. Griefing and such come to mind. Griefing alone is a very valid reason to use instancing in my opinion.
Oh and thanks professor for providing my the definition of MM in MMORPG. I was lost, but now I'm found. Instances let you take on a challenge with your friends without having to worry about some random group of douchebags ruining your fun.
You make it seem like these instances are being done solo...
No, I don't see how you can grief a triggered boss or one that everyone can attack freely or spawned randomly sorry.
Douches are everywhere & its your duty to report them so they get ban. Thats easy enough... ofc that has more impact in a game that takes more time than a month to get to level cap & where you depend on other to be able to get there.
With your attitude you are obviously not interested in other opinion than your own, so I'm done here.
Have fun! If instance is your thing the current market catters to you & you have plenty of choices.
I just wish I could say the same.
My opinion is irrelevant to what I'm saying. I'm just as worn out from the MMO scene as the next guy, but I'm realist, unlike you.
This whole "where you depend on other to be able to get there" bit. Are you really that oblivious as to why that is no longer prevelant? After the initial game rush the lower levels no longer has the population and numbers to support forced group play. It's that simple. Lotro and wow didn't make their leveling experience soloable because they thought it was a better design, they did it because any given class having to sit around waiting for hopefully a surge of the right level players to get on when they are playing, not only that but also but the right classes too (waiting around for a tank or healer is fun), is not fun for many.
You have me all wrong, because unlike you, I can think outside of my opinion and ideas. I would happily welcome forced grouping. That's one of the main reasons why I'm not really playing MMO's right now. I've grown tired of WoW and it seems like it's the only game that does group endgame well (in my opinion).
I believe in order for there to be forced grouping throughout leveling there needs to be an encouragement for grouping bonuses (they have to be beneficial enough to take into account getting together a group, mobilizing etc). Also, there needs to be interdependance between classes. Rift might achieve this by having so many overlapping classes.
Here is an example: 1. You go down to an instance with 5 of your friends. You work hard wipe 15 times on a boss. Then you kill it, you are happy, you are statisfied. 2. You go down to a dungeon with 5 of your friends, you wipe 10 times, then another group comes. You ask them to join you, you will share loot at the end. You manage to kill the boss with 10 players. You share loot, you are happy you are statisfied.
1. is called a multiplayer game
2. is called a massively multiplayer game
You decide which one you like, i like both, all i ask is: Dont mix the 2 please. If i pay for a massive experience i want to get massive experience.
3. You stand in a city alone. You open a tool that puts you in a group with people who aren't even on you're server. Loading screen, The tool transports you from where you're standing to the inside of an instance, with the 4 other people. the 5 of you go through the dungeon and kill the boss and get your loot. The other 4 disband, not a word spoken. Loading screen. You're back in the spot you were in, alone, about to open the tool again. Rinse repeat.
That's massively multiplayer?
You made the encounter trivial by doing it with twice the amount of people though. Yeah it was more "massive" but it also made it that much easier and simple. If you ask me, I would prefer a strong challenge with the 5 people instead of a zerg with 10 people. To each his own.
What about 25, is 25 massive enough for you?
And to the person that suggested the only attackable bosses and triggered bosses. These bosses end up being tank and spank zerg fests. That's boring too man lol. You can't have a scripted fight when people are free to come in and out of your encounter. That's what I'm talking about griefing, it doesn't have to be killing the boss, maybe it's just killing you.
It's funny how I listed my examples of exactly why open dungeons are awful and they got conveniently ignored, hah.
And to number 3, you do realize it's just an OPTION right? You can still set up your groups (which I would do since I've always hated random PuGs). Do you know what the tool was put in place for? For people that play during off-peak hours. For people that get stuck on less populated servers. For people that are leveling up to be able to queue for dungeons that maybe people on their server aren't running. But you just can't stop thinking about yourself for one moment can you?
Being ignorant and naive doesn't strengthen your argument, it makes you look silly and petty.
This whole "where you depend on other to be able to get there" bit. Are you really that oblivious as to why that is no longer prevelant? After the initial game rush the lower levels no longer has the population and numbers to support forced group play. It's that simple. Lotro and wow didn't make their leveling experience soloable because they thought it was a better design, they did it because any given class having to sit around waiting for hopefully a surge of the right level players to get on when they are playing, not only that but also but the right classes too (waiting around for a tank or healer is fun), is not fun for many.
...
I believe in order for there to be forced grouping throughout leveling there needs to be an encouragement for grouping bonuses (they have to be beneficial enough to take into account getting together a group, mobilizing etc). Also, there needs to be interdependance between classes. ...
Again, there are mechanic to deal with that. I have two words for you "level" "synchronization" or just one "mentoring". There's plenty you can do to channel the player base back to the early zones, but I wont get into that as I said I was done here. Use your imagination... if you have one.
Bonuses & fun group mechanic are a given... See FFXI xp chain & SC + MB. Thats just a basis, but no other game added to it since. Well there's FFXIV... but its not there yet & might never be as we all know the game has some serious issues.
This whole "where you depend on other to be able to get there" bit. Are you really that oblivious as to why that is no longer prevelant? After the initial game rush the lower levels no longer has the population and numbers to support forced group play. It's that simple. Lotro and wow didn't make their leveling experience soloable because they thought it was a better design, they did it because any given class having to sit around waiting for hopefully a surge of the right level players to get on when they are playing, not only that but also but the right classes too (waiting around for a tank or healer is fun), is not fun for many.
...
I believe in order for there to be forced grouping throughout leveling there needs to be an encouragement for grouping bonuses (they have to be beneficial enough to take into account getting together a group, mobilizing etc). Also, there needs to be interdependance between classes. ...
Again, there are mechanic to deal with that. I have two words for you "level" "synchronization" or just one "mentoring". There's plenty you can do to channel the player base back to the early zones, but I wont get into that as I said I was done here. Use your imagination... if you have one.
Bonuses & fun group mechanic are a given... See FFXI xp chain & SC + MB. Thats just a basis, but no other game added to it since. Well there's FFXIV... but its not there yet & might never be as we all know the game has some serious issues.
Mentoring works when they are your friends. Mentoring means diddley to anyone that doesn't have a higher level buddy to help them out. I know the system, I've seen it in Vanguard and CoH etc, and it doesn't solve anything unless you know people. The higher levels won't want to mentor the lower levels just for the hell out of it.
Challenging my imagination? That's classy. I used my imagination to come up with several reasons (even reasons outside of griefing etc) as to why open dungeons are no good. You chose to ignore it because you had no response. I think my imagination is just fine, thank you.
Here is an example: 1. You go down to an instance with 5 of your friends. You work hard wipe 15 times on a boss. Then you kill it, you are happy, you are statisfied. 2. You go down to a dungeon with 5 of your friends, you wipe 10 times, then another group comes. You ask them to join you, you will share loot at the end. You manage to kill the boss with 10 players. You share loot, you are happy you are statisfied.
1. is called a multiplayer game
2. is called a massively multiplayer game
You decide which one you like, i like both, all i ask is: Dont mix the 2 please. If i pay for a massive experience i want to get massive experience.
3. You stand in a city alone. You open a tool that puts you in a group with people who aren't even on you're server. Loading screen, The tool transports you from where you're standing to the inside of an instance, with the 4 other people. the 5 of you go through the dungeon and kill the boss and get your loot. The other 4 disband, not a word spoken. Loading screen. You're back in the spot you were in, alone, about to open the tool again. Rinse repeat.
That's massively multiplayer?
You made the encounter trivial by doing it with twice the amount of people though. Yeah it was more "massive" but it also made it that much easier and simple. If you ask me, I would prefer a strong challenge with the 5 people instead of a zerg with 10 people. To each his own.
What about 25, is 25 massive enough for you?
And to the person that suggested the only attackable bosses and triggered bosses. These bosses end up being tank and spank zerg fests. That's boring too man lol. You can't have a scripted fight when people are free to come in and out of your encounter. That's what I'm talking about griefing, it doesn't have to be killing the boss, maybe it's just killing you.
It's funny how I listed my examples of exactly why open dungeons are awful and they got conveniently ignored, hah.
And to number 3, you do realize it's just an OPTION right? You can still set up your groups (which I would do since I've always hated random PuGs). Do you know what the tool was put in place for? For people that play during off-peak hours. For people that get stuck on less populated servers. For people that are leveling up to be able to queue for dungeons that maybe people on their server aren't running. But you just can't stop thinking about yourself for one moment can you?
Being ignorant and naive doesn't strengthen your argument, it makes you look silly and petty.
So you choose to play normal multiplayer games, no problem mate, have fun with them i like them too on the weekends.
Tho my favorites are massively multiplayer games. I want to play them rest of the time.
To your points: Yes, i enjoy all of them, because i get some time to socialize. While i wait for the 10 minute boss respawn with 2 other groups, i am talking with them, pulling some random mobs for XP, make a campfire, tell jokes whateva. You dont like it? So you dont like MMORPGs.
And ya, 25 can be massive, when you go into a raid instance which has 15 raid bosses and on the way down to kill 4 of them you meet another raid of 30 people who are heading to the exact same 4 bosses as you do, and you decide to let them kill 2 and you take 2. Thats massive yes. And no thats not selfish. Selfish is when you want all the 15 bosses to yourself and your band of friends.
Interaction is sometimes meeting nice people, and helping each other and sometimes meeting rude people and suffering a bit. Thats what makes it enjoyable.
Aion had some pretty massive battles in it's earlier days, (I quit last summer so I'm not sure what it's like now) with a couple hundred players vs a couple hundred more. It was a laggy, disorganized mess.
I've fought in Keep seiges in Age of Conan where there were roughly 50 vs 50. Actually quite fun but there were alot of blipping toons from lag issues as well.
I like the idea of keeping the "Massive" in MMORPG's but I really don't want to sacrifice gameplay because of it. So yeah, I agree with the OP but if the game runs like crap when there is alot of players, I'll take the MORPG instead.
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
WoW had the 40 man raids and it was awful. Manging that many people when 90% of them have A.D.D. is just downright awful.
You think instances are why people are bored? LOL only reason you wouldn't have people 'bored' with non-instanced dungeons is because they would all be PISSED and UPSET. Having to camp a boss spawn for hours is NOT FUN. That does not make an MMO, hate to break it to you.
40 man raids are not that hard to manage as long as your RL/GL knows how to put down the law. My guild in vanilla WoW didn't have much problems with them. EQ raids have many more people for alot of encounters, they went fine. I've personally led many fort battles in Aion in which 10+ guilds were taking directions. Those battles are generally 100-150 people on each side and you aren't "raiding" against scripted ecounters, it was 200-300 people massive pvp. Is it chaotic at times? Yes, but it was also fun as hell and the sense of acomplishment of winning the fight against the Asmo on top of 2 dredgion ships was far beyond anything I felt in WoW even winning encounters such as Twin Emps.
The way your making it sound, its like if you have anything over 40 people, any organization will be awful. I'm glad our military didn't get that note else we would have a major problem since our generals won't know how to set 40 people up for precise encounters.
WoW had the 40 man raids and it was awful. Manging that many people when 90% of them have A.D.D. is just downright awful.
You think instances are why people are bored? LOL only reason you wouldn't have people 'bored' with non-instanced dungeons is because they would all be PISSED and UPSET. Having to camp a boss spawn for hours is NOT FUN. That does not make an MMO, hate to break it to you.
40 man raids are not that hard to manage as long as your RL/GL knows how to put down the law. My guild in vanilla WoW didn't have much problems with them. EQ raids have many more people for alot of encounters, they went fine. I've personally led many fort battles in Aion in which 10+ guilds were taking directions. Those battles are generally 100-150 people on each side and you aren't "raiding" against scripted ecounters, it was 200-300 people massive pvp. Is it chaotic at times? Yes, but it was also fun as hell and the sense of acomplishment of winning the fight against the Asmo on top of 2 dredgion ships was far beyond anything I felt in WoW even winning encounters such as Twin Emps.
The way your making it sound, its like if you have anything over 40 people, any organization will be awful. I'm glad our military didn't get that note else we would have a major problem since our generals won't know how to set 40 people up for precise encounters.
It really depends on the playerbase and what they are looking for.
The biggest reason 40 man raids are not right for WoW is that you spend way too much time outside of the game for that.
E.g. Recruiting 8 Warriors with 4 piece T3 gear cause 4 horseman in Naxx 1.0 was an absolute piece of poo poo is not fun.
If you look at the history of WoW, it always tries to decrease the amount of time you spend outside of the game (e.g. meta-game) and more inside the game. You can say this is 'dumbed' down but if I want to play a game, I want to PLAY the game.
I always find it hilarious when people say the 'meta game' is what makes a game 'hard' though.
Gdemami - Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Here is an example: 1. You go down to an instance with 5 of your friends. You work hard wipe 15 times on a boss. Then you kill it, you are happy, you are statisfied. 2. You go down to a dungeon with 5 of your friends, you wipe 10 times, then another group comes. You ask them to join you, you will share loot at the end. You manage to kill the boss with 10 players. You share loot, you are happy you are statisfied.
1. is called a multiplayer game
2. is called a massively multiplayer game
You decide which one you like, i like both, all i ask is: Dont mix the 2 please. If i pay for a massive experience i want to get massive experience.
3. You stand in a city alone. You open a tool that puts you in a group with people who aren't even on you're server. Loading screen, The tool transports you from where you're standing to the inside of an instance, with the 4 other people. the 5 of you go through the dungeon and kill the boss and get your loot. The other 4 disband, not a word spoken. Loading screen. You're back in the spot you were in, alone, about to open the tool again. Rinse repeat.
That's massively multiplayer?
You made the encounter trivial by doing it with twice the amount of people though. Yeah it was more "massive" but it also made it that much easier and simple. If you ask me, I would prefer a strong challenge with the 5 people instead of a zerg with 10 people. To each his own.
What about 25, is 25 massive enough for you?
And to the person that suggested the only attackable bosses and triggered bosses. These bosses end up being tank and spank zerg fests. That's boring too man lol. You can't have a scripted fight when people are free to come in and out of your encounter. That's what I'm talking about griefing, it doesn't have to be killing the boss, maybe it's just killing you.
It's funny how I listed my examples of exactly why open dungeons are awful and they got conveniently ignored, hah.
And to number 3, you do realize it's just an OPTION right? You can still set up your groups (which I would do since I've always hated random PuGs). Do you know what the tool was put in place for? For people that play during off-peak hours. For people that get stuck on less populated servers. For people that are leveling up to be able to queue for dungeons that maybe people on their server aren't running. But you just can't stop thinking about yourself for one moment can you?
Being ignorant and naive doesn't strengthen your argument, it makes you look silly and petty.
So you choose to play normal multiplayer games, no problem mate, have fun with them i like them too on the weekends.
Tho my favorites are massively multiplayer games. I want to play them rest of the time.
To your points: Yes, i enjoy all of them, because i get some time to socialize. While i wait for the 10 minute boss respawn with 2 other groups, i am talking with them, pulling some random mobs for XP, make a campfire, tell jokes whateva. You dont like it? So you dont like MMORPGs.
And ya, 25 can be massive, when you go into a raid instance which has 15 raid bosses and on the way down to kill 4 of them you meet another raid of 30 people who are heading to the exact same 4 bosses as you do, and you decide to let them kill 2 and you take 2. Thats massive yes. And no thats not selfish. Selfish is when you want all the 15 bosses to yourself and your band of friends.
Interaction is sometimes meeting nice people, and helping each other and sometimes meeting rude people and suffering a bit. Thats what makes it enjoyable.
Now imagine if this game was 'massively' like you're putting it. You won't just have 2 raid groups, you'll have several dozen if the servers are split up the way WoW has them. I'm sure you would want just 1 game world too?
Imagine how many raid groups would be fighting over these 15 bosses. 'Joining together' MIGHT be possible if the encounter would suddenly scale to match the newly formed raid, but that usually turns fights into tank and spank zerg fests.
That is all, of course, if the game is successful and has millions of subscribers. Picture Vanguard's depleted population. They have overland (open) raids and even there, with that population, there are times where you have to cut a raid short or try to find another wing to do.
Then you start to understand why the game would be a niche game. Don't get me wrong, it would be a fun one. I would probably play it. However, it's not realistic of where the MMO genre is today and how popular it has become.
WoW had the 40 man raids and it was awful. Manging that many people when 90% of them have A.D.D. is just downright awful.
You think instances are why people are bored? LOL only reason you wouldn't have people 'bored' with non-instanced dungeons is because they would all be PISSED and UPSET. Having to camp a boss spawn for hours is NOT FUN. That does not make an MMO, hate to break it to you.
40 man raids are not that hard to manage as long as your RL/GL knows how to put down the law. My guild in vanilla WoW didn't have much problems with them. EQ raids have many more people for alot of encounters, they went fine. I've personally led many fort battles in Aion in which 10+ guilds were taking directions. Those battles are generally 100-150 people on each side and you aren't "raiding" against scripted ecounters, it was 200-300 people massive pvp. Is it chaotic at times? Yes, but it was also fun as hell and the sense of acomplishment of winning the fight against the Asmo on top of 2 dredgion ships was far beyond anything I felt in WoW even winning encounters such as Twin Emps.
The way your making it sound, its like if you have anything over 40 people, any organization will be awful. I'm glad our military didn't get that note else we would have a major problem since our generals won't know how to set 40 people up for precise encounters.
Aion and something like a wow raid are completely different. Don't even try to pretend they are the same. On one hand you're talking about the more the merrier because it feeds our zerg, on the other hand you have a hard cap limit where you can't really go over and you can't really go under.
I iddn't make anything sound like anything, you just got the idea in your head and ran with it. Manging includes A LOT of things. I'm talking about making sure you have enough tanks, healers, X class, Y class available. Making sure you can field 40, and only 40, while having to let everyone else that showed up down. No, it's not like Aion where you can have 20 guilds, their brother's cousins, and pepito's little dog too.
You had to overcompensate to make sure you could field at least 40. God forbid you were short a few people and everyone else was stuck unable to get anything done. Bad connection issues? Damn, everyone has to wait til they get it fixed. Does that happen in Aion? Nope, if you're dcing or having lag issues, too bad the battle will still wage on, right?
So go ahead and try to be cool with your 'war' analogy which was mickey mouse at best. What you described in Aion sounds like it would be a lot of fun. It would be nice to take part in something like that but my computer would just have a heart attack. It's not the same though
The reason lies with the disease called linear, themepark. It was first introduced by WoW and has now infected almost every other MMORPG.
It is basically a way of making non MMORPG players, play MMORPG games as it handholds you from point A to B to C etc. Problem is two fold.
First it is boring, for people that wants to actually play and explore a MMORPG world, to be funneled from A to B. Second you will sooner or later run out of stops and then there is more or less nothing to do beside grinding for gear, so you can grind for more gear.
You are right with everything you wrote. 99 % of these so called MMORPG on the market are crap. The only real MMORPG I know, with a completely seamless world is Lineage2, where everything you do does have an impact on the entire world. Unfortunately the grind is insane. Every kind of grind is boring and crap and a waste of time.
I will never again buy an instanced and/or grindbased game, when I am looking for an MMORPG. Unless the industries gets this into their heads, no money from me.
There are two things that I have seen encourage player interaction and socializing.
Threat of PvP - Its not the PvP itself, but the threat of being PK'd. It makes people band together. I have seen this effect in EVE and UO. The biggest challenge in game design here is to attract a balanced playerbase (carebears) which Darkfall failed to do as have many other PvP focused MMOG's. EVE and UO are the only two that have accomplished this with any success.
Downtime - EQ's thang. It worked. It wouldn't work anymore. Get over it. I loved waiting for the boat to. I'd chit-chat while the puller went hunting. Nobody in their right mind would play like that anymore.
What we need to do is come up with creative ways to make downtime seem attractive. This could be done in many ways, but no one has taken enough risk to put money behind it. Maybe minigames in taverns. Player housing. Even things like a less rigid level system and non-linear progression may have an indirect effect on it. You just gotta slow people down and break the mindset that achievement is everything.
The reason lies with the disease called linear, themepark. It was first introduced by WoW and has now infected almost every other MMORPG.
It is basically a way of making non MMORPG players, play MMORPG games as it handholds you from point A to B to C etc. Problem is two fold.
First it is boring, for people that wants to actually play and explore a MMORPG world, to be funneled from A to B. Second you will sooner or later run out of stops and then there is more or less nothing to do beside grinding for gear, so you can grind for more gear.
Think i'm gunna follow you around, because apparently, you and I are the only ones who dare spread these words of wisdom.
nobody stopping you from grouping up with a massive amount of players.
They are. There has to be a reason to group up with massive amounts of players.
EvE Online: 0.0 systems. If you want it, you need to invade and blow up whoever is there. This leads to 1000 vs 1000 blob battles and node crashes.
Lineage 2: Dungeon ownership. You walk into a dungeon, get killed by 4 people in the same group. You call 5 over from your guild, they call 10. It eventually goes to 100 vs 100, then alliances are called in. Why? We want loot.
Planetside: This really doesn't have to be explained lol
nobody stopping you from grouping up with a massive amount of players.
They are. There has to be a reason to group up with massive amounts of players.
EvE Online: 0.0 systems. If you want it, you need to invade and blow up whoever is there. This leads to 1000 vs 1000 blob battles and node crashes.
Lineage 2: Dungeon ownership. You walk into a dungeon, get killed by 4 people in the same group. You call 5 over from your guild, they call 10. It eventually goes to 100 vs 100, then alliances are called in. Why? We want loot.
Planetside: This really doesn't have to be explained lol
LOL@ "Planetside: This really doesn't have to be explained lol"
Kudos. Man, I tried planetside once, and aside from the dated graphics, I was blown away. Good stuff they had/have goin on. I'm just very snobby about shooters/FPS so it takes a lot to keep me hooked on them.
Comments
No, I don't see how you can grief a triggered boss or one that everyone can attack freely or spawned randomly sorry.
Douches are everywhere & its your duty to report them so they get ban. Thats easy enough... ofc that has more impact in a game that takes more time than a month to get to level cap & where you depend on other to be able to get there.
With your attitude you are obviously not interested in other opinion than your own, so I'm done here.
Have fun! If instance is your thing the current market catters to you & you have plenty of choices.
I just wish I could say the same.
Griefing is a very valid reason by killing mobs, setting off boss scripts, ganking. You seem to have it in your head that people are doing instances solo. I can't help with that because even you have to know how horribly wrong that is.
People interact with each other just fine in the games you're bashing as being anti-social and non-massive. You're riding this whole "people don't want to interact with others" horse right into the water my friend because you don't back up anything you say.
You're telling me you like the idea of working hard through a dungeon with your group so that another group can come right before you pull the boss and steal them? Interacting is fun...
How about getting to a boss spawn only to find that he's not even there. Interacting is fun. How about having 2-3 groups all sitting in a room jumping around hitting tab to target the boss as soon as he spawns. Tag war interactions seem fun...
You're at a new encounter and you just wiped, man thta was tough. Oh well, when you got back another group already cleared it, better luck next time. Interacting with other people is so much fun.
Uh oh someone just dc'ed right before the boss. Can't sit around and wait for your buddy to get back because there are other groups breathing down your neck to get at the boss. Poor pepito gets left out. I'm sure he's loving the interaction.
My level 15 group just made it through our first dungeon, woohoo. We're 2 pulls away from the last boss. Oh damn, high lvl douche bag just logged into his character and went on to solo the boss faster than our measly little group ever could. Interactions are fun!
Please sign me up for this MMO.. lol.
You answered yourself with your very last paragraph. That's exactly the point. People don't want what you're talking about. An MMO like that would be a niche one at best.
lol you're going on about how dungeons should be open and not instanced, a world should be open and this and that. Your actions should have meaning blah blah, -insert typical sandbox argument here-, because that's what YOU want. So yes, you are being selfish
*applause*
Then read it again please. I said, they are made for 5-10 players. And 5 players are not massive. Thats all i say. Im happy with 5 player games, just dont call them massive, because i dont get the massive gameplay experience if i kill a boss with 5 of my friends. I like to do it, and i would still do it, but i would never call it massive.
Here is an example: 1. You go down to an instance with 5 of your friends. You work hard wipe 15 times on a boss. Then you kill it, you are happy, you are statisfied. 2. You go down to a dungeon with 5 of your friends, you wipe 10 times, then another group comes. You ask them to join you, you will share loot at the end. You manage to kill the boss with 10 players. You share loot, you are happy you are statisfied.
1. is called a multiplayer game
2. is called a massively multiplayer game
You decide which one you like, i like both, all i ask is: Dont mix the 2 please. If i pay for a massive experience i want to get massive experience.
3. You stand in a city alone. You open a tool that puts you in a group with people who aren't even on you're server. Loading screen, The tool transports you from where you're standing to the inside of an instance, with the 4 other people. the 5 of you go through the dungeon and kill the boss and get your loot. The other 4 disband, not a word spoken. Loading screen. You're back in the spot you were in, alone, about to open the tool again. Rinse repeat.
That's massively multiplayer?
Yeah this is getting silly
is 10? massive? well I dont know maybe 30? well could be but I really think its 1000000? yeah but is your experience any different because you cant really get to know more than 10 people at a time anyway? well yeah but its cool..
I guess as a Darkfall player I fail to see the problem because in the game if you have the social skills to gather up your closest 100 friends you can and its very cool if you can pull it off.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
My opinion is irrelevant to what I'm saying. I'm just as worn out from the MMO scene as the next guy, but I'm realist, unlike you.
This whole "where you depend on other to be able to get there" bit. Are you really that oblivious as to why that is no longer prevelant? After the initial game rush the lower levels no longer has the population and numbers to support forced group play. It's that simple. Lotro and wow didn't make their leveling experience soloable because they thought it was a better design, they did it because any given class having to sit around waiting for hopefully a surge of the right level players to get on when they are playing, not only that but also but the right classes too (waiting around for a tank or healer is fun), is not fun for many.
You have me all wrong, because unlike you, I can think outside of my opinion and ideas. I would happily welcome forced grouping. That's one of the main reasons why I'm not really playing MMO's right now. I've grown tired of WoW and it seems like it's the only game that does group endgame well (in my opinion).
I believe in order for there to be forced grouping throughout leveling there needs to be an encouragement for grouping bonuses (they have to be beneficial enough to take into account getting together a group, mobilizing etc). Also, there needs to be interdependance between classes. Rift might achieve this by having so many overlapping classes.
You made the encounter trivial by doing it with twice the amount of people though. Yeah it was more "massive" but it also made it that much easier and simple. If you ask me, I would prefer a strong challenge with the 5 people instead of a zerg with 10 people. To each his own.
What about 25, is 25 massive enough for you?
And to the person that suggested the only attackable bosses and triggered bosses. These bosses end up being tank and spank zerg fests. That's boring too man lol. You can't have a scripted fight when people are free to come in and out of your encounter. That's what I'm talking about griefing, it doesn't have to be killing the boss, maybe it's just killing you.
It's funny how I listed my examples of exactly why open dungeons are awful and they got conveniently ignored, hah.
And to number 3, you do realize it's just an OPTION right? You can still set up your groups (which I would do since I've always hated random PuGs). Do you know what the tool was put in place for? For people that play during off-peak hours. For people that get stuck on less populated servers. For people that are leveling up to be able to queue for dungeons that maybe people on their server aren't running. But you just can't stop thinking about yourself for one moment can you?
Being ignorant and naive doesn't strengthen your argument, it makes you look silly and petty.
Uhmm
Darkfall? hello? anyone see the 'massive' linkage here?
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Again, there are mechanic to deal with that. I have two words for you "level" "synchronization" or just one "mentoring". There's plenty you can do to channel the player base back to the early zones, but I wont get into that as I said I was done here. Use your imagination... if you have one.
Bonuses & fun group mechanic are a given... See FFXI xp chain & SC + MB. Thats just a basis, but no other game added to it since. Well there's FFXIV... but its not there yet & might never be as we all know the game has some serious issues.
Mentoring works when they are your friends. Mentoring means diddley to anyone that doesn't have a higher level buddy to help them out. I know the system, I've seen it in Vanguard and CoH etc, and it doesn't solve anything unless you know people. The higher levels won't want to mentor the lower levels just for the hell out of it.
Challenging my imagination? That's classy. I used my imagination to come up with several reasons (even reasons outside of griefing etc) as to why open dungeons are no good. You chose to ignore it because you had no response. I think my imagination is just fine, thank you.
So you choose to play normal multiplayer games, no problem mate, have fun with them i like them too on the weekends.
Tho my favorites are massively multiplayer games. I want to play them rest of the time.
To your points: Yes, i enjoy all of them, because i get some time to socialize. While i wait for the 10 minute boss respawn with 2 other groups, i am talking with them, pulling some random mobs for XP, make a campfire, tell jokes whateva. You dont like it? So you dont like MMORPGs.
And ya, 25 can be massive, when you go into a raid instance which has 15 raid bosses and on the way down to kill 4 of them you meet another raid of 30 people who are heading to the exact same 4 bosses as you do, and you decide to let them kill 2 and you take 2. Thats massive yes. And no thats not selfish. Selfish is when you want all the 15 bosses to yourself and your band of friends.
Interaction is sometimes meeting nice people, and helping each other and sometimes meeting rude people and suffering a bit. Thats what makes it enjoyable.
Aion had some pretty massive battles in it's earlier days, (I quit last summer so I'm not sure what it's like now) with a couple hundred players vs a couple hundred more. It was a laggy, disorganized mess.
I've fought in Keep seiges in Age of Conan where there were roughly 50 vs 50. Actually quite fun but there were alot of blipping toons from lag issues as well.
I like the idea of keeping the "Massive" in MMORPG's but I really don't want to sacrifice gameplay because of it. So yeah, I agree with the OP but if the game runs like crap when there is alot of players, I'll take the MORPG instead.
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
I don't hate much, but I hate Apple© with a passion. If Steve Jobs was alive, I would punch him in the face.
40 man raids are not that hard to manage as long as your RL/GL knows how to put down the law. My guild in vanilla WoW didn't have much problems with them. EQ raids have many more people for alot of encounters, they went fine. I've personally led many fort battles in Aion in which 10+ guilds were taking directions. Those battles are generally 100-150 people on each side and you aren't "raiding" against scripted ecounters, it was 200-300 people massive pvp. Is it chaotic at times? Yes, but it was also fun as hell and the sense of acomplishment of winning the fight against the Asmo on top of 2 dredgion ships was far beyond anything I felt in WoW even winning encounters such as Twin Emps.
The way your making it sound, its like if you have anything over 40 people, any organization will be awful. I'm glad our military didn't get that note else we would have a major problem since our generals won't know how to set 40 people up for precise encounters.
It really depends on the playerbase and what they are looking for.
The biggest reason 40 man raids are not right for WoW is that you spend way too much time outside of the game for that.
E.g. Recruiting 8 Warriors with 4 piece T3 gear cause 4 horseman in Naxx 1.0 was an absolute piece of poo poo is not fun.
If you look at the history of WoW, it always tries to decrease the amount of time you spend outside of the game (e.g. meta-game) and more inside the game. You can say this is 'dumbed' down but if I want to play a game, I want to PLAY the game.
I always find it hilarious when people say the 'meta game' is what makes a game 'hard' though.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Now imagine if this game was 'massively' like you're putting it. You won't just have 2 raid groups, you'll have several dozen if the servers are split up the way WoW has them. I'm sure you would want just 1 game world too?
Imagine how many raid groups would be fighting over these 15 bosses. 'Joining together' MIGHT be possible if the encounter would suddenly scale to match the newly formed raid, but that usually turns fights into tank and spank zerg fests.
That is all, of course, if the game is successful and has millions of subscribers. Picture Vanguard's depleted population. They have overland (open) raids and even there, with that population, there are times where you have to cut a raid short or try to find another wing to do.
Then you start to understand why the game would be a niche game. Don't get me wrong, it would be a fun one. I would probably play it. However, it's not realistic of where the MMO genre is today and how popular it has become.
Aion and something like a wow raid are completely different. Don't even try to pretend they are the same. On one hand you're talking about the more the merrier because it feeds our zerg, on the other hand you have a hard cap limit where you can't really go over and you can't really go under.
I iddn't make anything sound like anything, you just got the idea in your head and ran with it. Manging includes A LOT of things. I'm talking about making sure you have enough tanks, healers, X class, Y class available. Making sure you can field 40, and only 40, while having to let everyone else that showed up down. No, it's not like Aion where you can have 20 guilds, their brother's cousins, and pepito's little dog too.
You had to overcompensate to make sure you could field at least 40. God forbid you were short a few people and everyone else was stuck unable to get anything done. Bad connection issues? Damn, everyone has to wait til they get it fixed. Does that happen in Aion? Nope, if you're dcing or having lag issues, too bad the battle will still wage on, right?
So go ahead and try to be cool with your 'war' analogy which was mickey mouse at best. What you described in Aion sounds like it would be a lot of fun. It would be nice to take part in something like that but my computer would just have a heart attack. It's not the same though
The reason lies with the disease called linear, themepark. It was first introduced by WoW and has now infected almost every other MMORPG.
It is basically a way of making non MMORPG players, play MMORPG games as it handholds you from point A to B to C etc. Problem is two fold.
First it is boring, for people that wants to actually play and explore a MMORPG world, to be funneled from A to B. Second you will sooner or later run out of stops and then there is more or less nothing to do beside grinding for gear, so you can grind for more gear.
My gaming blog
You are right with everything you wrote. 99 % of these so called MMORPG on the market are crap. The only real MMORPG I know, with a completely seamless world is Lineage2, where everything you do does have an impact on the entire world. Unfortunately the grind is insane. Every kind of grind is boring and crap and a waste of time.
I will never again buy an instanced and/or grindbased game, when I am looking for an MMORPG. Unless the industries gets this into their heads, no money from me.
There are two things that I have seen encourage player interaction and socializing.
Threat of PvP - Its not the PvP itself, but the threat of being PK'd. It makes people band together. I have seen this effect in EVE and UO. The biggest challenge in game design here is to attract a balanced playerbase (carebears) which Darkfall failed to do as have many other PvP focused MMOG's. EVE and UO are the only two that have accomplished this with any success.
Downtime - EQ's thang. It worked. It wouldn't work anymore. Get over it. I loved waiting for the boat to. I'd chit-chat while the puller went hunting. Nobody in their right mind would play like that anymore.
What we need to do is come up with creative ways to make downtime seem attractive. This could be done in many ways, but no one has taken enough risk to put money behind it. Maybe minigames in taverns. Player housing. Even things like a less rigid level system and non-linear progression may have an indirect effect on it. You just gotta slow people down and break the mindset that achievement is everything.
nobody stopping you from grouping up with a massive amount of players.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Think i'm gunna follow you around, because apparently, you and I are the only ones who dare spread these words of wisdom.
The OP is rght. There are two games off the top of my head that are true MMOs, which I played when I was much younger.
Lineage 2: MASSIVE BATTLES. Enough said. I remember being in a huge battle (500ish people) when we were all low levels.
Planetside: If any remembers the raids, you know what I am talking about.
EvE Online: node crashes, why? Too many people lol
Three real MMOs right there.
They are. There has to be a reason to group up with massive amounts of players.
EvE Online: 0.0 systems. If you want it, you need to invade and blow up whoever is there. This leads to 1000 vs 1000 blob battles and node crashes.
Lineage 2: Dungeon ownership. You walk into a dungeon, get killed by 4 people in the same group. You call 5 over from your guild, they call 10. It eventually goes to 100 vs 100, then alliances are called in. Why? We want loot.
Planetside: This really doesn't have to be explained lol
LOL@ "Planetside: This really doesn't have to be explained lol"
Kudos. Man, I tried planetside once, and aside from the dated graphics, I was blown away. Good stuff they had/have goin on. I'm just very snobby about shooters/FPS so it takes a lot to keep me hooked on them.