Human vs Machine .. . Easy vs Hard . ..

Sid_Vicious · January 2011

Why is it that most gamers shy away from MMORPGs they are interested in simply because it has FFA PVP?

Is it because they do not want to risk being griefed by other players or is it because they do not want to play a hard game?

Lets take a look at todays average mob AI in MMORPGs. The current genre has not been able to create a mob that has superior AI when compared to the average human being. In almost every area, a person will be able to beat a machine when it comes to AI and tactical thinking. Of course you could do things like add extra HP or have the game be simple enough that there are only so options that one can make and have the AI make all of the right decisions but has there ever been AI that is more difficult to beat than another player because of its tactical thinking found in an MMORPG?

If people were replaced by mobs who somehow had superior enough AI to provide the same challenge and cunning as another person, would you play it then since it would be a PVE game? What if the mobs came at you at any given time so that there were never real safe-zones like there are in todays MMORPG. Would you get the same sense of danger knowing that it is only PVE and not another person at the controls? What if the mobs were able to kill you and take your stuff? What if the mobs sent you taunting messages or cried out in pain when stuck down?

It seems to me that todays MMORPGs have easymode PVE for the most part and then PVP but not enough options in between. Do people really want their games to be this easy? Don't people want to be at the edge of their seat while they play or have unpredictable gameplay?

Themepark MMORPGs is most likely the main reason that PVE is not very difficult because in that type of game you must do certain quests and content to unlock more things in the game so if you fail you have no other option than to try it again. That is where it is not fun going against difficult PVE because you end up having to try it over and over again until you finally succeed . .. resulting in burning out its players. FFA PVP in these types of games sucks for the same reason as every entrance to a new area is camped by griefers. So does this mean that a sandbox game is the only way that we can go against difficult PVE and have FFA PVP with it still being fun?

I find it a shame that most MMORPGs today have lost their thrill by allowing the players to constantly win a little as they continue to subscribe, lost their risk vs reward, and lost their challenge to keep a person at the edge of the seat while at the same time not forcing the players to try the same difficult quest over and over again. When MMORPGs first came out, they had a sense of danger that most todays MMORPGs seriously lack for some of us. Is this really what we asked for?

Nekrataal · January 2011

PvE game have become easy & thats a fact. Its a shame really.

But what is important to note is that they are purposefully made easy...

Before, when you got aggrod by something, it would follow you until it killed you or you killed it. ( Yay trains!)

Thats but one exemple...

I think that mobs AI are made to pose little challenge because, lets face it, if they wanted they could easily make groups of mobs that work well together to give a hell of a headache to players trying to tackle them.

Just take FFXII or DA: O npc macro system & apply it to groups of mobs & you'd be in trouble imho. Thats just a simplistic & easy to use system, they can go much more in depth than that.

The bottom line is that PvE is made easy because thats what sells. Sad, but true.

Metentso · January 2011

I don't want to be killed by a player that spent the last week studying how to beat my class.

warmaster670 · January 2011

Originally posted by Sid_Vicious

I find it a shame that most MMORPGs today have lost their thrill by allowing the players to constantly win a little as they continue to subscribe, lost their risk vs reward, and lost their challenge to keep a person at the edge of the seat while at the same time not forcing the players to try the same difficult quest over and over again.

Ya, its called most gamers play games to have fun, not so they can get there ass kicked 7 times in a row trying to do the same thing over and over.

All these people that complain games are to easy, guess what? make it harder yourself then and leave everyone else alone.

Sid_Vicious · January 2011

Think of it this way . ... since people refer to gaming as a sport lets use that as a reference.

In almost every sport that exists there is a winning side and a losing side while occasioanlly a draw match. What kind of sport does not have a winning side? What kind of sport is not funner when a bet is placed on the match? Risk vs reward can exist in sports as well and tend to spice up things a bit and make things more thrilling and interesting. I am not much of a gambler myself but I do think that I am more likely to enjoy the game if there is a bet placed on it. I am the time of person who may considered a good sport though and will usually congradulate the winner. What kind of person is not willing to play if its possible to lose or play it but are not able to handle losing very well? Isn't this the difinition of being a poor sport?

Does this mean that the average gamer today is a poor sport?

Why don't people in the gaming community see the good things that can come from competition and challenge?

Kenaoshi · January 2011

I want it to be a feature, not the ONLY thing the game has to offer, as the current representants do.

..and not talking about connection/lag issues that matters a lot on that screnario, getting u ass kick because your f¨¨#! country dont have good internets sux ;(

Sid_Vicious · January 2011

Originally posted by warmaster670

Originally posted by Sid_Vicious

I find it a shame that most MMORPGs today have lost their thrill by allowing the players to constantly win a little as they continue to subscribe, lost their risk vs reward, and lost their challenge to keep a person at the edge of the seat while at the same time not forcing the players to try the same difficult quest over and over again.

Ya, its called most gamers play games to have fun, not so they can get there ass kicked 7 times in a row trying to do the same thing over and over.

All these people that complain games are to easy, guess what? make it harder yourself then and leave everyone else alone.

Sorry man I am not trying to personally attack anyone .. . and I am also never going to want to do the same thing over and over but I think that it is worth discussing with other gamers since I enjoy MMORPGs just as you do.

I just find it shocking that it seems like people on average cannot handle losing, competition, or real challenge.

It does not make me a better person, but when I play solo games I always turn it up to the hardest setting that I can handle without using cheats or any kind of exploit because it feels like I get the most out of the game and in the long run end up playing the game longer and feel more of a sense of accomplishment when I beat the game so-to-speak. I notice that many people just buy the game genie or look up online cheats and I also notice how much less they seem to enjoy the game in the long run compared to me.

Does this mean that I like impossibly hard games like afterburner, insector x, or silver surfer? Absolutly not because they force me to do the same thing over and over again.

Fibsdk · January 2011

Originally posted by Sid_Vicious

Originally posted by warmaster670

Originally posted by Sid_Vicious

I find it a shame that most MMORPGs today have lost their thrill by allowing the players to constantly win a little as they continue to subscribe, lost their risk vs reward, and lost their challenge to keep a person at the edge of the seat while at the same time not forcing the players to try the same difficult quest over and over again.

Ya, its called most gamers play games to have fun, not so they can get there ass kicked 7 times in a row trying to do the same thing over and over.

All these people that complain games are to easy, guess what? make it harder yourself then and leave everyone else alone.

Sorry man I am not trying to personally attack anyone .. . and I am also never going to want to do the same thing over and over but I think that it is worth discussing with other gamers since I enjoy MMORPGs just as you do.

I just find it shocking that it seems like people on average cannot handle losing, competition, or real challenge.

It does not make me a better person, but when I play solo games I always turn it up to the hardest setting that I can handle without using cheats or any kind of exploit because it feels like I get the most out of the game and in the long run end up playing the game longer and feel more of a sense of accomplishment when I beat the game so-to-speak. I notice that many people just buy the game genie or look up online cheats and I also notice how much less they seem to enjoy the game in the long run compared to me.

You just have to come to terms with the fact not everybody is like you. It's just a matter of preference. Exploiting and cheating is a whole other issue that shouldn't be mixed in with why people don't like FFA PvP. They have no relation to each other.

PvP is less about skill these days but who has the best gear. That's a good enough reason not to like pvp. I personally don't play MMOs to compete with or against others. I'm not a competitive person by nature which is why I don't care for sports either.

Having said that, I did like PvP in Global Agenda. Everybody was on equal footing and skill determined wins and losses. Not l33t gear

Juggler8 · January 2011

I also find most PVE content in MMORPGs way to easy, but I don’t think it comes down to the AI, but more the death penalties become lighter and lighter. You still see a lot of players lose to mobs out there, but it still feels easy, because there is hardly any penalty. For not that long ago, I checked out the DConline open beta, and I ran away because of the penalty. No risk, all rewards are not for me.

But neither is FFA PvP. That again, does not come down to the skills or challenge of the players, but the mentality. Being able to assault and kill any players just because you can, do not help the immersion of a fantasy world for me. I get frustrated to walk around, doing some harvesting or whatever you can do in those games, and then some player, jumps out of a bush, slaps me down and hacks me to pieces, so he can steal a few cobs of corn or even worse, so he can feel superior.

I think I’m not the only one in the boat that would love to see a game, which was challenging with a reason. Greater Death penalties, so when you win (or if hard enough “avoid losing”) you are really satisfied. A game where you can have FFA PvP but with consequences for the attacker, so when they decide to attack anyone it comes with a deep cost (as in the RPG “Vampire the Masquerade” a humanity cost), so nobody would just go around and attack every single player controlled pixel they can find.

To sum up, PvE are in “modern” MMORPG easy because of light death penalties.

PvP are not fun, because there are no morals or consequences for hacking another player to pieces, so instead of having a game with intrigue conflicts, all we have are murder carnivals.

Larsa · January 2011

Originally posted by Sid_Vicious
Think of it this way . ... since people refer to gaming as a sport lets use that as a reference.
... Does this mean that the average gamer today is a poor sport?

Why don't people in the gaming community see the good things that can come from competition and challenge?

Maybe, for you, gaming is a sport, for many other people it isn't. It isn't for me. I'm quite a competitive guy in my job, I see absolutely no reason to be competitive in my entertainment.

Please note also that competition and challenge are different things: Challenge means that you need to overcome an obstacle, be it a mob, a player, a quest riddle, a tactical situation, whatever. Competition means that you want to show that you're better than somebody else. Different things. Therefore you can have challenging games without being competitive ones.

Sid_Vicious · January 2011

Originally posted by Juggler8

I also find most PVE content in MMORPGs way to easy, but I don’t think it comes down to the AI, but more the death penalties become lighter and lighter. You still see a lot of players lose to mobs out there, but it still feels easy, because there is hardly any penalty. For not that long ago, I checked out the DConline open beta, and I ran away because of the penalty. No risk, all rewards are not for me.

But neither is FFA PvP. That again, does not come down to the skills or challenge of the players, but the mentality. Being able to assault and kill any players just because you can, do not help the immersion of a fantasy world for me. I get frustrated to walk around, doing some harvesting or whatever you can do in those games, and then some player, jumps out of a bush, slaps me down and hacks me to pieces, so he can steal a few cobs of corn or even worse, so he can feel superior.

I think I’m not the only one in the boat that would love to see a game, which was challenging with a reason. Greater Death penalties, so when you win (or if hard enough “avoid losing”) you are really satisfied. A game where you can have FFA PvP but with consequences for the attacker, so when they decide to attack anyone it comes with a deep cost (as in the RPG “Vampire the Masquerade” a humanity cost), so nobody would just go around and attack every single player controlled pixel they can find.

To sum up, PvE are in “modern” MMORPG easy because of light death penalties.

PvP are not fun, because there are no morals or consequences for hacking another player to pieces, so instead of having a game with intrigue conflicts, all we have are murder carnivals.

I agree in that having a risk when PVEing by actually losing something if you fail is much more important for PVE and PVP as well than it is for the game being hard. It creates much more of a thrill and realism.

If you are harvesting or whatever and some NPC were to come out of the bush to steal corn or simply because he doesnt like Humans or whatever race you play or to see you suffer, would it be more likely that you would play it? Consequences are just as important to me as FFA PVP but not in the sense that most people think as I would rather be the hero who is informed of the wrong-doer and be the one who is given the challenge of bringing justice. Wouldn't it be fun to track down people or monsters who killed an innocent person? That is the kind of thinking that I would love to see more of in this community. Usually when people think of consequences, they think of the game giving them a penalty which may end up giving people less freedom in the end . .. or am I wrong?

dragonbrand · January 2011

PVP for casual players will always be a non-factor if it is FFA. Nobody wants to lose what they've earned from PVE activities to a PVP ganker (specialist). No casual player will ever be able to compete (to sue your sports reference) with a person that only PVPs. Nobody likes to lose every time. Casual players will PVP occasionally when the cost isnt too high. If you are going to have PVP active all the time, dont make it FFA. There should be an inherent cost to PKers in the game (a reputation loss?). Otherwise the casual player will never play the games.

ste2000 · January 2011

Originally posted by Sid_Vicious
Why is it that most gamers shy away from MMORPGs they are interested in simply because it has FFA PVP?

Is it because they do not want to risk being griefed by other players or is it because they do not want to play a hard game?

That's simple to answer.

Because generally games are made to give the player the impression they can always win, so they feel good about themself after a shit day at the office.

In FFA PVP is different

Once you realize you are as vulnerable as in real life, then most of the player will shy away.

SEANMCAD · January 2011

Originally posted by ste2000

Originally posted by Sid_Vicious
Why is it that most gamers shy away from MMORPGs they are interested in simply because it has FFA PVP?

Is it because they do not want to risk being griefed by other players or is it because they do not want to play a hard game?

That's simple to answer.

Because generally games are made to give the player the impression they can always win, so they feel good about themself after a shit day at the office.

In FFA PVP is different

Once you realize you are as vulnerable as in real life, then most of the player will shy away.

I think this is true.

Its ironic because I play Darkfall but FFA is not even on my list of reasons why I play it.

helthros · January 2011

Originally posted by Sid_Vicious
Why is it that most gamers shy away from MMORPGs they are interested in simply because it has FFA PVP?

Is it because they do not want to risk being griefed by other players or is it because they do not want to play a hard game?

Lets take a look at todays average mob AI in MMORPGs. The current genre has not been able to create a mob that has superior AI when compared to the average human being. In almost every area, a person will be able to beat a machine when it comes to AI and tactical thinking. Of course you could do things like add extra HP or have the game be simple enough that there are only so options that one can make and have the AI make all of the right decisions but has there ever been AI that is more difficult to beat than another player because of its tactical thinking found in an MMORPG?

If people were replaced by mobs who somehow had superior enough AI to provide the same challenge and cunning as another person, would you play it then since it would be a PVE game? What if the mobs came at you at any given time so that there were never real safe-zones like there are in todays MMORPG. Would you get the same sense of danger knowing that it is only PVE and not another person at the controls? What if the mobs were able to kill you and take your stuff? What if the mobs sent you taunting messages or cried out in pain when stuck down?

It seems to me that todays MMORPGs have easymode PVE for the most part and then PVP but not enough options in between. Do people really want their games to be this easy? Don't people want to be at the edge of their seat while they play or have unpredictable gameplay?

Themepark MMORPGs is most likely the main reason that PVE is not very difficult because in that type of game you must do certain quests and content to unlock more things in the game so if you fail you have no other option than to try it again. That is where it is not fun going against difficult PVE because you end up having to try it over and over again until you finally succeed . .. resulting in burning out its players. FFA PVP in these types of games sucks for the same reason as every entrance to a new area is camped by griefers. So does this mean that a sandbox game is the only way that we can go against difficult PVE and have FFA PVP with it still being fun?

I find it a shame that most MMORPGs today have lost their thrill by allowing the players to constantly win a little as they continue to subscribe, lost their risk vs reward, and lost their challenge to keep a person at the edge of the seat while at the same time not forcing the players to try the same difficult quest over and over again. When MMORPGs first came out, they had a sense of danger that most todays MMORPGs seriously lack for some of us. Is this really what we asked for?

I'm just curious but name one current sandbox that has difficult PvE, and don't you dare say Darkfall

I agree that there needs to be more death penalties, absolutely. It can't be something absolutely devastating. As a tank, I always hated that I ended up spending a lot more gold on group activities cause I would die more. "tanks dead, RUN!!"

No, not everyone needs to be at the edge of their seat waiting for 'unpredictable' gameplay. Some people are tired from work/school/life and just want to relax and knock out a level or two then get to bed.

Juggler8 · January 2011

Originally posted by Sid_Vicious

Originally posted by Juggler8

I also find most PVE content in MMORPGs way to easy, but I don’t think it comes down to the AI, but more the death penalties become lighter and lighter. You still see a lot of players lose to mobs out there, but it still feels easy, because there is hardly any penalty. For not that long ago, I checked out the DConline open beta, and I ran away because of the penalty. No risk, all rewards are not for me.

But neither is FFA PvP. That again, does not come down to the skills or challenge of the players, but the mentality. Being able to assault and kill any players just because you can, do not help the immersion of a fantasy world for me. I get frustrated to walk around, doing some harvesting or whatever you can do in those games, and then some player, jumps out of a bush, slaps me down and hacks me to pieces, so he can steal a few cobs of corn or even worse, so he can feel superior.

I think I’m not the only one in the boat that would love to see a game, which was challenging with a reason. Greater Death penalties, so when you win (or if hard enough “avoid losing”) you are really satisfied. A game where you can have FFA PvP but with consequences for the attacker, so when they decide to attack anyone it comes with a deep cost (as in the RPG “Vampire the Masquerade” a humanity cost), so nobody would just go around and attack every single player controlled pixel they can find.

To sum up, PvE are in “modern” MMORPG easy because of light death penalties.

PvP are not fun, because there are no morals or consequences for hacking another player to pieces, so instead of having a game with intrigue conflicts, all we have are murder carnivals.

I agree in that having a risk when PVEing by actually losing something if you fail is much more important for PVE and PVP as well than it is for the game being hard. It creates much more of a thrill and realism.

If you are harvesting or whatever and some NPC were to come out of the bush to steal corn or simply because he doesnt like Humans or whatever race you play or to see you suffer, would it be more likely that you would play it? Consequences are just as important to me as FFA PVP but not in the sense that most people think as I would rather be the hero who is informed of the wrong-doer and be the one who is given the challenge of bringing justice. Wouldn't it be fun to track down people or monsters who killed an innocent person? That is the kind of thinking that I would love to see more of in this community. Usually when people think of consequences, they think of the game giving them a penalty which may end up giving people less freedom in the end . .. or am I wrong?

Yes, you are right that it would give people less freedom. I would like if we had full freedom, but I just don’t think we are ready for it.

I don’t have a problem with getting ganked or put six foot under the ground by another player IF when I ask why they attacked me the answer is not “OH, because I can you noob”. I would like a world where that answer is “you are the enemy of my state” or “that corn cob was the last within the next hundred leagues and it was either you feeding your family or I mine, and I knew you wouldn’t give it up without a fight”.

I don’t know if this makes sense, but, yes, full freedom would be nice, but for people to treat that with respect, I still think bigger consequences are needed, like outside the screen, E.G. sitting in a bar and this person is being rude to everyone. I have the freedom to go give him a nice smack down, but I have to weigh in the consequences whatever it is worth to go to jail for.

It is freedom for you to do what you want to do, as long as you are ready to face possible outcomes.

The only way to get that in a game, where players would actually weighing whatever their actions will be worth it or not, is by implementing some kind of penalty.

ste2000 · January 2011

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

Originally posted by ste2000

That's simple to answer.

Because generally games are made to give the player the impression they can always win, so they feel good about themself after a shit day at the office.

In FFA PVP is different

Once you realize you are as vulnerable as in real life, then most of the player will shy away.

I think this is true.

Its ironic because I play Darkfall but FFA is not even on my list of reasons why I play it.

Me too.

But FFA PVP doesn't bother me either, like in real life sometimes you beat someone, sometimes you get beaten.

So I find it normal in a game too.

Although I do like games that give me the impression of being a God too, but generally I like the challenge.

Juggler8 · January 2011

Just trying to clarify what it is I find is needed, so I have to add this example:

Take a highway robber (if it even called that??); He always say, “give me yer gold or yer life”. What he is really saying is “I really need your gold, but don’t want to kill you for it. But if that is the way to go, than be it”. Why? Because even while being a villain he does have some kind of consciences.

In FFA pvp, right now, it is just too time consuming to ask, might as well just kill the poor bastard right away. Your consciences will stay the same one way or another.

Tinklepee · January 2011

Originally posted by Metentso
I don't want to be killed by a player that spent the last week studying how to beat my class.

So you don't want to be killed by a player who is better at the game than you?

What a crybaby.

ste2000 · January 2011

Originally posted by Juggler8

I don’t have a problem with getting ganked or put six foot under the ground by another player IF when I ask why they attacked me the answer is not “OH, because I can you noob”. I would like a world where that answer is “you are the enemy of my state” or “that corn cob was the last within the next hundred leagues and it was either you feeding your family or I mine, and I knew you wouldn’t give it up without a fight”.

I don’t know if this makes sense, but, yes, full freedom would be nice, but for people to treat that with respect, I still think bigger consequences are needed, like outside the screen, E.G. sitting in a bar and this person is being rude to everyone. I have the freedom to go give him a nice smack down, but I have to weigh in the consequences whatever it is worth to go to jail for.

Mhhhh........... what you just said is a free advert for FFA PvP.

In FFA PVP you get consequences.

In Darkfall you become Red for long time and everyone can Kill you on Sight (You become KOS) hence increasing the chances to lose your stuff.

You cannot enter in Cities and use the merchants, so unless you are in a guild with a big city you are an outcast.

In Darkfall you have to think before engaging someone, because there is no visual indication if that player is a Veteran or a Newbie (no level no epic gear).

So griefing people is not as easy as you think.

In Carebear PvP it's the opposite.

Because you have no real consecuences, people can grief you as much as they like because they know they have nothing to lose if something goes wrong

Juggler8 · January 2011

Originally posted by ste2000

Mhhhh........... what you just said is a free advert for FFA PvP.

In FFA PVP you get consequences.

In Darkfall you become Red for long time and everyone can Kill you on Sight (You become KOS) hence increasing the chances to lose your stuff.

You cannot enter in Cities and use the merchants, so unless you are in a guild with a big city you are an outcast.

In Darkfall you have to think before engaging someone, because there is no visual indication if that player is a Veteran or a Newbie (no level no epic gear).

So griefing people is not as easy as you think.

In Carebear PvP it's the opposite.

Because you have no real consecuences, people can grief you as much as they like because they know they have nothing to lose if something goes wrong

Hmmm..never thought about it that way. But still have a question (and yes, I have been tempted to play Darkfall, but haven't had the guts yet ):

KOS? Does it matter, since what I understand, you can anyhow kill anyone on sight? What is the real difference being Red or not? (not trying to be a smartazz...just don't understand the difference)

Otiro · January 2011

Originally posted by Juggler8

Originally posted by Sid_Vicious

Originally posted by Juggler8

I also find most PVE content in MMORPGs way to easy, but I don’t think it comes down to the AI, but more the death penalties become lighter and lighter. You still see a lot of players lose to mobs out there, but it still feels easy, because there is hardly any penalty. For not that long ago, I checked out the DConline open beta, and I ran away because of the penalty. No risk, all rewards are not for me.

But neither is FFA PvP. That again, does not come down to the skills or challenge of the players, but the mentality. Being able to assault and kill any players just because you can, do not help the immersion of a fantasy world for me. I get frustrated to walk around, doing some harvesting or whatever you can do in those games, and then some player, jumps out of a bush, slaps me down and hacks me to pieces, so he can steal a few cobs of corn or even worse, so he can feel superior.

I think I’m not the only one in the boat that would love to see a game, which was challenging with a reason. Greater Death penalties, so when you win (or if hard enough “avoid losing”) you are really satisfied. A game where you can have FFA PvP but with consequences for the attacker, so when they decide to attack anyone it comes with a deep cost (as in the RPG “Vampire the Masquerade” a humanity cost), so nobody would just go around and attack every single player controlled pixel they can find.

To sum up, PvE are in “modern” MMORPG easy because of light death penalties.

PvP are not fun, because there are no morals or consequences for hacking another player to pieces, so instead of having a game with intrigue conflicts, all we have are murder carnivals.

I agree in that having a risk when PVEing by actually losing something if you fail is much more important for PVE and PVP as well than it is for the game being hard. It creates much more of a thrill and realism.

If you are harvesting or whatever and some NPC were to come out of the bush to steal corn or simply because he doesnt like Humans or whatever race you play or to see you suffer, would it be more likely that you would play it? Consequences are just as important to me as FFA PVP but not in the sense that most people think as I would rather be the hero who is informed of the wrong-doer and be the one who is given the challenge of bringing justice. Wouldn't it be fun to track down people or monsters who killed an innocent person? That is the kind of thinking that I would love to see more of in this community. Usually when people think of consequences, they think of the game giving them a penalty which may end up giving people less freedom in the end . .. or am I wrong?

Yes, you are right that it would give people less freedom. I would like if we had full freedom, but I just don’t think we are ready for it.

I don’t have a problem with getting ganked or put six foot under the ground by another player IF when I ask why they attacked me the answer is not “OH, because I can you noob”. I would like a world where that answer is “you are the enemy of my state” or “that corn cob was the last within the next hundred leagues and it was either you feeding your family or I mine, and I knew you wouldn’t give it up without a fight”.

I don’t know if this makes sense, but, yes, full freedom would be nice, but for people to treat that with respect, I still think bigger consequences are needed, like outside the screen, E.G. sitting in a bar and this person is being rude to everyone. I have the freedom to go give him a nice smack down, but I have to weigh in the consequences whatever it is worth to go to jail for.

It is freedom for you to do what you want to do, as long as you are ready to face possible outcomes.

The only way to get that in a game, where players would actually weighing whatever their actions will be worth it or not, is by implementing some kind of penalty.

I don't think there really can be true freedom in a game as in life. There would be no penelties at all. There needs to be consequences for your actions. Rewarded for doing well. Punished for doing wrong. Most MMO's I'm aware of now have very little in the way of penelties or consequences for doing wrong or dieing. I doubt there are enough players that would treat a truely freedom game with respect.

Take a look at Darkfall for example. My friends and I just quit about a month ago. One of the reasons was do to the lack of death penlaties, or consequences for going rogue. Right now darkfall would have to be the most Freedom based game there is. That is the problem. There are very few laws/Rules to abide by and what penalties you get are minimal. So you can go grief/gank your own race then just turn around and kill an opposing race to wear off the little penalty you get. There is no need to have players hunt down the aggressors. Like there was in UO. Even death has no penelty to it. You die you respawn with a little res sickness.

For the Op...

I don't think it is the FFA PVP that keeps people away per say. But more the Grind that goes with it. More and more players are the casual style (Myself Included now). So they see this as losing everything then having to go out and get more or to stock pile a large supply = grind.

As for challenging content, I still think most players want a challenge but just more based on skill than time. Most players would say Everquest was hard. When reallity it was not. it did have some hard content but most of the challenge was being patient enough to wait for spawns. I don't think people want that time constraint anymore. Maybe one of the reasons why developers make the games to easy. The are eqaiting players complaints about challenge with time. So instead of making chellenging content that dont take long to get to. they are making the mobs to easy. (Just a thought on this though. I really have no idea.)

Daitengu · January 2011

I really think FFA PvP depends on the game. Works for some, like EvE, and doesn't work for others, like EQ or CoH.

As a World of Darkness P&P player, the MMO had better be FFA PvP. That's just how WoD is. Not being able to attack anyone at random just ain't right in WoD. There are consequences in WoD though, like Blood hunts, etc. The cons balance FFA PVP rather well.

D&D on the other hand tends to not have backstabbing, and more of a carebear approach. So I could see why there's no FFA in the MMO varient.

Otiro · January 2011

Originally posted by Juggler8

Originally posted by ste2000

Mhhhh........... what you just said is a free advert for FFA PvP.

In FFA PVP you get consequences.

In Darkfall you become Red for long time and everyone can Kill you on Sight (You become KOS) hence increasing the chances to lose your stuff.

You cannot enter in Cities and use the merchants, so unless you are in a guild with a big city you are an outcast.

In Darkfall you have to think before engaging someone, because there is no visual indication if that player is a Veteran or a Newbie (no level no epic gear).

So griefing people is not as easy as you think.

In Carebear PvP it's the opposite.

Because you have no real consecuences, people can grief you as much as they like because they know they have nothing to lose if something goes wrong

Hmmm..never thought about it that way. But still have a question (and yes, I have been tempted to play Darkfall, but haven't had the guts yet ):

KOS? Does it matter, since what I understand, you can anyhow kill anyone on sight? What is the real difference being Red or not? (not trying to be a smartazz...just don't understand the difference)

What Ste2000 Is saying is not as harsh as it sounds.

While killing someone of your own race will cause you to turn red. it is really not for a long period of time. For example say you are Alfar and you kill one of your own race. Just head over to another races area and kill a couple of that race in this case we will say human. You would need to kill 2 or 3 of them to remove the Rogue(Red) status. or if you are playing with freinds just have everyone create a different race. This what my friends and I did. So no matter where you are you can gank someone and not worry about going red. or if you did go red just beat on your friendsa abit to remove it.

Yes you can kill anyone on sight, or at least try to.

Loot is easy to get from crafting and mobs or from other players. So after a little while you find that losing your gear means very little.

With that said, the game is fun to a point. it is fun to start fighting a player only to find out they are a veteran and can smack you down really quick.

Darkfall has a 14 day trial. Give it a run and see if it is for you.

crunchyback · January 2011

Originally posted by Sid_Vicious
Why is it that most gamers shy away from MMORPGs they are interested in simply because it has FFA PVP?

Is it because they do not want to risk being griefed by other players or is it because they do not want to play a hard game?

Lets take a look at todays average mob AI in MMORPGs. The current genre has not been able to create a mob that has superior AI when compared to the average human being. In almost every area, a person will be able to beat a machine when it comes to AI and tactical thinking. Of course you could do things like add extra HP or have the game be simple enough that there are only so options that one can make and have the AI make all of the right decisions but has there ever been AI that is more difficult to beat than another player because of its tactical thinking found in an MMORPG?

If people were replaced by mobs who somehow had superior enough AI to provide the same challenge and cunning as another person, would you play it then since it would be a PVE game? What if the mobs came at you at any given time so that there were never real safe-zones like there are in todays MMORPG. Would you get the same sense of danger knowing that it is only PVE and not another person at the controls? What if the mobs were able to kill you and take your stuff? What if the mobs sent you taunting messages or cried out in pain when stuck down?

It seems to me that todays MMORPGs have easymode PVE for the most part and then PVP but not enough options in between. Do people really want their games to be this easy? Don't people want to be at the edge of their seat while they play or have unpredictable gameplay?

Themepark MMORPGs is most likely the main reason that PVE is not very difficult because in that type of game you must do certain quests and content to unlock more things in the game so if you fail you have no other option than to try it again. That is where it is not fun going against difficult PVE because you end up having to try it over and over again until you finally succeed . .. resulting in burning out its players. FFA PVP in these types of games sucks for the same reason as every entrance to a new area is camped by griefers. So does this mean that a sandbox game is the only way that we can go against difficult PVE and have FFA PVP with it still being fun?

I find it a shame that most MMORPGs today have lost their thrill by allowing the players to constantly win a little as they continue to subscribe, lost their risk vs reward, and lost their challenge to keep a person at the edge of the seat while at the same time not forcing the players to try the same difficult quest over and over again. When MMORPGs first came out, they had a sense of danger that most todays MMORPGs seriously lack for some of us. Is this really what we asked for?

As ironic as this sounds, the game ive seen with hands down the best mob AI is Darkfall. Sometimes you swear the GM is controlling the mob your fighting. And there is really no aggro circle around the mobs. Youll know when they are close by arrows fling at you, then have to figure out where they are comming from and if its another player or a nooby goblin shooting them, they shoot at you from farther than you would think, much farther away than any other game i can think of.

ENTR0PY · January 2011

Originally posted by Daitengu
I really think FFA PvP depends on the game. Works for some, like EvE, and doesn't work for others, like EQ or CoH.

As a World of Darkness P&P player, the MMO had better be FFA PvP. That's just how WoD is. Not being able to attack anyone at random just ain't right in WoD. There are consequences in WoD though, like Blood hunts, etc. The cons balance FFA PVP rather well.

D&D on the other hand tends to not have backstabbing, and more of a carebear approach. So I could see why there's no FFA in the MMO varient.

I'm sorry but it doesn't work in EVE either. It's a griefer paradise full of sociopaths (pirates).

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