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Is my taste in PvP similar to yours?
Plasmicredx
Member Posts: 629
There are 2 major categories for PvP. These have sub-categories.
Ruleset
PvP Ruleset
PvE Ruleset
PvP Ruleset is for PvPers who favor games like Ultima Online, Darkfall, EVE, Shadowbane, for their full PvP and full loot anywhere at any time.
PvE Ruleset is the anti PvP Ruleset which restricts players from any PvP at all. As a PvPer I don't know of a game that I can reference this to. Maybe EverQuest 2 if you ignore dueling and their PvP servers.
Gameplay
Action Gameplay
Handicap Strategy Gameplay
Action Gameplay PvPers are players who favor games like WoW and DC Universe Online because they have the best twitch PvP gameplay. Circle strafing, jumping, and movement need to feel fluid and responsive. Animations also need to be fluid and responsive. These types of players love FPS games too and other twitch games.
Handicap Strategy Gameplay PvPers are players who favor games like Dark Age of Camelot, Warhammer, Asian RPGs, EverQuest and stuff. They like to roleplay and let their characters fight for them. Usually these games have the characters stand still shooting or swinging at each other to let people have time to think and click their skills.
A game can encompass some or even all of the categories.
The reason I'm writing this is because I want to hear from more people like me. I am more of an Action Gameplay PvPer and I like games like WoW and DC Universe Online for the action gameplay pvp alone. I am willing to sacrifice hardcore PvP Rulesets for an amazing action gameplay experience although I do welcome hardcore PvP Rulesets in my games. The more PvP Ruleset and Action Gameplay oriented a game is, using these definitions, the better.
I don't play MMORPGs for the PvE aspects although that is a huge plus.
Let's talk about Warhammer Online. This MMORPG claimed it was for PvPers because of RvR, taking capital cities, and the infinite war. This turned out to be not entirely true. For one, because it had more of a Handicap Strategy Gameplay. The movement was not fluid or responsive. There was no circle strafing. When you use an ability your character automatically turns and faces your enemy. Movement usually gets you stuck on a corner or pixel on the ground. A buggy and glitchy player colision was put into the game that resulted in players rubberbanding every time one of them bumps each other's elbow. Invisible walls were everywhere and movement was clunky and slow even on mounts. Action Gameplay was almost non existent in a PvP focused MMORPG. This means it is not for Action Gameplay PvPers. AT ALL! Warhammer is more of a Strategy RPG MMO that would be more fun if there was a commander controlling all the players like in Savage 2. I bet you the game would get more players if the devs changed it into that instead of using RvR as their only saving grace to appeal to PvPers.
I'm sure that there is a small market for Handicap Strategy PvP MMORPGs. This would explain why WAR and even DAoC still has subscriptions. That might be some player's thing. But it isn't for the majority of Action Gameplay and PvP Ruleset PvPers.
In my opinion, Real PvP is about the freedom to PvP without any or very little (at all) restrictions.
It's also true that a pure PvP formula isn't right for EVERY game - sometimes a game needs different degrees of each category. But for me, all I want is a good action gameplay and a good pvp ruleset with no handicap strategy gameplay or pve rulesets at all. Who's with me?!
Again, this doesn't mean we hate PvE.
Comments
Levels of PvP Ruleset that range from more freedom to no freedom.
Full loot, anywhere.
Full loot in certain zones.
Full loot with teams anywhere.
Full loot with teams in certain zones.
Anywhere.
In certain zones.
With teams anywhere.
With teams in certain zones.
None at all.
Teams = Factions = Realms = All the same.
Levels of Gameplay that range from Handicap Strategy to Action.
Every action and movement is controlled by you at all times.
All movement and directional facing is controlled by you. Jumping is implemented. Circle Strafing becomes possible.
All movement is controlled by you. Jumping is implemented. No circle strafing.
Mouse click on enemy and your character automatically follows. No jumping.
Mouse click on enemy and your character automatically follows and attacks until you win or lose. No jumping.
I like the more competitive style pvp like Counter Strike or WoW arenas/rated bgs or lineage 2 castle sieges.
I used to like the more "hardcore" pvp, but usually its just people running away from each other.
MY favorite pvp is faction pvp.
I love that faction hate you get in games like WAR or even WoW (well you used to in wow lol).
I would log in and just want to kill a mofo.
I don't need much of a motivator to kill someone. no rewards, no territory control or some mentally retarded keep.
Set my factions, give me an open field and let me goto work.
My best pvp is when i want to kill because i HATE the other person across that field.
Faction pvp is the only type of pvp that sets up that type of Hate.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
@OP: could ypu touch on what motivations the various games provide for pvp play? Obiously in full loot, financial reward is part of it. Is it usually driven by gear reward?
Tournament style PvP might be considered another category of PvP or it might be considered somewhere in Ruleset. I'm not sure where to place it.
If the Ruleset isn't full loot, then it might be some form of currency reward like Honor gains in WoW. So usually some gear reward drive. Obviously once you reach the end game of a game like WoW you can gain battlegrounds gear or do arenas for arena gear. Or some games like Guild Wars don't even have any gain other than a ladder system. Some games like Darkfall might just be for the fun of it.
I personally play PvP for the fun of it, but I welcome currency rewards like battleground gear in WoW. I think I don't like Tournament PvP anymore though. I used to like tournament pvp but I'm finding I like the randomness of World PvP more. Hiding from groups of players hunting me and stuff can be way more exciting.
In Faction PvP I have never, even once, hated a particular player. I saw most of them as "From that enemy realm that I hate." Free for all PvP is when I start taking names and listing them on a murder list like in Dark Age of Camelot Mordred server.
What about Warhammer's Handicapped Gameplay? Do you just not care that the game is more of a strategy RPG than an action RPG? I played it for a month and tried to get passed it. Just couldn't. I had to go back to an action RPG.
Ooo. That reminds me. Age of Conan is an action RPG, yes. In fact, I loved that game at first. Until I found there were just huge empty zones full of nothing to do that were meant for guild wars. Guild wars need to have zones that are apart of the game. Not be separate over here in a corner. I also like persistent worlds. It was a little instanced heavy. It's not really a real MMORPG if you have instances for everything. Also, Age of Conan was really just a game where you stand and push a bunch of arrow keys in order to activate an attack so your character can just stand there and do cool moves. It just wasn't a full action gameplay RPG. But it was close.
PvP pinnacled a LONG time ago in asheron's call.
The darktide server of Asheron's call had the whole pvp/anti/etc thing going with a very strong community base -- areas that became owned essentially by guilds.
The combat system let you even avoid war spells shot at you if you jumped over them or dodged to the side of them.
People did drop items (albeit mostly DIs) but those were expensive and you could run out or unluckily drop something really good.
It was a dark and gritty place but for pvp skill, it was the top bar none -- and probably still is(albeit the population level likely hinders things somewhat these days).
---
Some might say ultima online but UO had nothing on AC's DT for this.
Asheron's Call - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0L17HyGpYU
That's definitely some old school action MMORPG PvP there. I'm glad you brought it to my attention because I didn't know of this game's existence really because I came from Dark Age of Camelot for my first MMORPG.
Such a cool game. It might be a little too fast though.
I suppose my taste in PvP is a bit different even though I think would fit in your action gamplayer style.
My entry to PvP was with FPS games and ever since I prefer a more evenly matched pvp so naturally I don't enjoy RPG PvP all that much. But I don't mind RPG PvPif its Group vs Group (open world or senarios) or Raid vs everyone else. I really have no interest in solo pvp, ganking and dueling- its as much of as a yawn as going back to Deathmatch in shooters.
However, I did enjoy some of the tiered pvp Warhammer. It wasn't really incredible or anything but it felt more evenly matched(lvl and gear). Dieing wasn't much of an issue so without the down time and penalties I could learn how to pvp better much faster.
That must be what it is. I like being able to play and learn PvP as I go, learning my character's abilties and PvP rules. In FFA PvP the penalty for dieing is quite a barrier to start if you don't even know how everything works. So you have to result to a LOT of learning instead of playing while learning or result to tagging along with a guild. Why not have have the penalties scale up with your level? hehe
[High Death Penalty]<----------------------------------> [Low Death Penalty]
[Slower PvP learning Curve]<-------------->[Faster PvP Learning Curve]
Your death penalty and learning curve thing makes sense because learning is done through repetition of experience and learning (repetition of experience and logic). So if you are in a game with full loot it will be hard to learn anything because people will keep taking your stuff whenever you die and then you won't be able to fight with the same gear you used to have (therefore you can't go experience more combat in order to learn).
Well, the problem is there hasn't been an MMORPG yet that I know of with full loot that isn't a severe penalty. In EVE, I know that you can clone yourself and get insurance on your space ship. So when you die you still have it. But this still costs a lot of money I remember. I just never got into EVE because it's more of a strategy RPG than an action RPG.
Point being, you can still have a full loot system in an MMORPG with a fast learning curve and low death penalty. It just hasn't been made yet.
I would love to have the best of both worlds in an MMORPG. Hardcore PvP Ruleset with a number 1 or 2 Action RPG combat (numbers come from my Gameplay Levels). And maybe a medium learning curve or easy instead of a severe one. Or just a difficult/challenging learning curve but not something that is going to discourage you entirely from dieing again.
action/twitch gameplay in WoW?...what.
SKYeXile
TRF - GM - GW2, PS2, WAR, AION, Rift, WoW, WOT....etc...
Future Crew - High Council. Planetside 1 & 2.
WoW has the following:
Circle strafe.
Jump escapes certain attacks.
Responsive and fluid movement, animation, and combat.
WoW is more of a 2: All movement and directional facing is controlled by you.
But it doesn't allow you to control every single action such as your auto attack. Certain things are a combination of strategy + action, but WoW is more of an action game because of how much better a circle strafing player with keybinds can be than a strategic player that simply stands there pushing abilities.
I only enjoy action based combat. Slow paced combat is not for me. I find it irritating. It feels like I have to wait to pull off my actions. I want to be able to rotate my char, jump, strafe etc and not have the game do it for me automatically.
What I don't like in MMOs is having too many people in one place. 20vs20+ battles in one place just feels pointless to me. My actions have little significance and it turns into a storm of spells flying around and nobody has any clue what's going on.
I like to have a more competitive style of PvP where people play on even terms. This doesn't mean I want gear out of my game. E.g. WoW's arena is fairly competitive at similar gear levels.
Rewards - I don't really care about this. I simply want to be able to pawn people. Gear reward is obviously the most common incentive. But you can also have a ladder incentive similar to what they have in GW. I would really want to see something like SC2 league system. It feels very rewarding. And you know where you rank compared to other players. Any of this will do for me.
One thing which I despise is full loot or any kind of looting really. This only leads to griefing and can make people very upset. This is not fun. If you spend a lot of time getting something, it doesn't seem fair to lose it in a matter of seconds.
Controlling different areas from the world does not motivate me. I don't really care whether we control zone x and y or not. A lot of people say that PvP is meaningless in this game or that game. I am not searching for any meaning. The point is to have fun while I am actually PvPing which will depend on the gameplay, pace etc. Why does it have to have a meaning?
I never liked combat in RPGs but I play them because I like story and character progression. But I certainly would prefer action based combat in my RPG to slow and 'strategic' combat.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Circle strafe.
Jump escapes certain attacks.
Responsive and fluid movement, animation, and combat.
WoW is more of a 2: All movement and directional facing is controlled by you.
But it doesn't allow you to control every single action such as your auto attack. Certain things are a combination of strategy + action, but WoW is more of an action game because of how much better a circle strafing player with keybinds can be than a strategic player that simply stands there pushing abilities.
The only thing WoW does different from action twitch is take the targeting away from you for single target attacks. You still have to face your target (most of the time). Dodge and Hit are handled by the RNG. So it's actually a very action-y system, even if it's not actually a twitch system.
So far, my favorite PvP has been faction PvP, if there's a story involved. I'm terrible with names, so individuals on the 'other team' don't really register with me. They might be good players and kill me, but I have a hard time even disliking them for that. Factions setup an easy system and strangely enough make it easier to remember individuals whom I do not like. There was one particular mage on the Bloodhoof WoW server for whom I would have been very happy to setup a 5 man team to kill as much as possible. I don't think that kind of animosity would have happened on a FFA PvP server or in something like Global Agenda. From there, it made it easy to want to engage in PvP with the entire other faction and to feel happy about killing as many of them as possible. It's probably the same mental mechanics that make it easy to not feel bad about bombing villages full of people when those people (even though they've done nothing wrong) are the 'enemy'.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I stopped reading after reading the OP say that there are two types of PvP, and one of them is PvE.
Wtf?
Personally I've played ALOT of MMOs and I've come to some personal conclusions.
A Gameplay's general style is irelevant providing the proper execution.
I most enjoy a PvP Ruleset, but generally stray from the Hardcore variety
And easy accessibility to said PvP is a must.
Im not particular between Action or Strategy Gameplay. However things such as itemization versus skill I find are very important in terms of PvP. I am of a mind that skill should trump Items, an example of how NOT to itemize is WoW, where the differences between items is staggeringly high. Which in turn makes gear difference a desicive role in PvP outcomes and can be a sizable hurdle for those more inclined to pass up endgame PvE.
In terms of rulesets, I prefer PvP rulesets which allow open world PvP, which coincedently is generally where I enjoy myself the most. Where the outcomes aren't pre-defined and essentially 'caged in'. I am generally not in favor of the more hardcore PvP rulesets such as those including full looting, however a good balance can strike my curiosity. In fact, I'm not enthused by any form of death penalties that would incur lasting debilitating effects such as those that might hinder my experiance while PvPing. The fact that I am to be penilized for death in a situation where that is to be a inevitible outcome(PvP) is seemingly ridiculous. I am much more confortable with PvP incurring rewards.
I also prefer the aspects of Team based PvP, such as the comradery and even the rivalries that can occur between groups or even individual people.
I believe he is reffering to the scenario in which the PvP is done only in a consensual manor, such as Battlegrounds/Scenarios, Dueling, and the like. As opposed to PvP type games/servers in which it may be encouraged at all times and can occur spontaneously.
Well Darkfall goes straight for the more 'hardcore' options here. Full loot, anywhere. Full control over everything you do.
This type of PvP is not for everyone but actually gets serious amounts of adrenaline going
The next one I prefered was Aions system of being able to PvP just about everywhere but having places you can PvE quietly although the no risk factor and the fortress system killed it for me.
A step down on your scale comes WoW, whilst there is skill involved with timing ect. Gear/Class are such huge determining factors, combine that with even less risk than Aion and it quickly gets stale for me.
You didn't understand.
I said there's two main categories to PvP. Rulesets and Gameplay.
These have subcategories that range from MORE PvP to NO PvP (under Rulesets, you can usually read the ruleset types when choosing a server and they're usually called PvP, PvE, or Hardcore). Under Gameplay it ranges from Action to Strategy. Action is all about controlling every action yourself. Strategy is about the game doing things for you like an RTS. Eventually the very bottom of Strategy turns into turn based RPGs like Pokemon. Pokemon/FinalFantasy/Dungeons&Dragons/DiceRoll type games are the bottom of the barrel. MMORPGs usually don't even say what type of MMORPG they are because they can contain elements from both an action OR a strategy game. But some are more action based than strategy and some games are more strategy based than action based.
If Pokemon was an MMORPG (I heard it is now at Pokemon World.com or something), compare Pokemon to WoW in a fight with another player. Is WoW not more closer to an action game with things like running, jumping, circle strafing, and realtime compared to a pokemon pvp battle where you have as much time as you want to pick your attack in a turn based manner?
Understand now?
Darkfall is definitely on the right track in terms of ruleset. The action part was a little too shallow to really be considered to have a great action RPG combat for me. All you do to swing a weapon is swing. There doesn't appear to be anything else you do except maybe do a 360. If the action had more depth with more ways to swing a weapon, tons and tons of spells and you had to choose a certain school of magic to learn from, same thing with weapons you can only learn how to fight good with certain weapons, with being able to stealth with small weapons like daggers, etc, with attacks unique to each weapon type, then it would make a great action RPG I would recommend. Being able to cast magic and shoot bows just makes the game worse for me. I didn't want to "be every class, use every weapon" type of thing. Darkfall is a cool game for those that do like those things though.
I simply can't put into words how much I hated all Order players in WAR.
The only race on order i could even stomach rolling was a dwarf and that lasted about a day.
I hated their classes, their city, their players.
To this day when i see a pvp video made by an order player it pisses me off.
I couldnt careless about stupid looting, ffapvp or territory conquest rules. Those motherfuckers needed to die.
You need no other motivation in a good pvp game.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Which brings up a good question. What should be the motivation to pvp? Is it only about killing other players? Is that the only fun to be had in PvP?
Motivating factors for PvP to me are an in depth combat system that no one truly ever masters or at least takes practice every day to keep your game up. I used to play WoW every day and practice on training dummies in Orgrimmar with my orc warrior to stay good at it. If I never practiced I would start trying silly things and get myself killed. It was designed that way by Blizzard by creating lots and lots of abilities for every class that people had to keybind nearly every one to effectively play and practice when to use them.
Having an in depth combat system as opposed to a shallow one creates a system players have to spend more time learning to master. It also motivates players to compete with one another to see who has their game on and who doesn't.
DC Universe Online has only 6-8 skills on every player's hotbar, so you might wonder why I said it has depth. It's because of the weapon combo system. You can hold left mouse to perform a leap attack. You can hold shift to block. You can dodge roll. You can keep tapping left mouse to perform default combos or do 3 left taps then hold for a medium stunning attack. When you get crowd controlled, you have to push a specific key to get out of it (either shift or left mouse depending on what type it is). It can get up to 9 left taps and then hold left mouse for a strong attack, but getting off 9 hits to begin with is hard to do. You can also perform ranged attacks or ranged charge-up attacks. All of these things make the combat deeper and this adds to the overall feel of the game.
You don't fall asleep watching your character beat people up. Instead I'm sitting forward in my seat as I play DC Universe Online, anxious to see how the next fight goes. If I don't, I may leave my defenses open and get owned by even the game's AI. At the same time, the game is very fun and I don't feel like it's too challenging.