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The future of online gaming, lootwise (fixed post)
Robert_S4
Member Posts: 142
Let's incite a bit of controversy, shall we? Those that do not want to read about me, skip down to the long line and read below that part.
I began my online gaming career back when EQOA (EverQuest Online Adventures) released on the PlayStation 2 quite a few years back. I was at my local town gaming store of choice and saw this box with EverQuest on it.
At first I was a bit sceptical, but I decided to buy it with the internet adapter and give it a go. I got thrown into the world of Norrath and set out on my journey, haven't looked back ever since. I have played most of the pay to play games on the market and a whole bunch of free to play games. A good, decent game is hard to find, at least these days, when the standards of gaming has gone up but the products coming out have not exactly kept up with expectations.
Many people might think that people in general has unreal expectations that will never get satisfied no matter what, do they really now? Hmm.
_______________________________________________________
To the point of my post. All of this is my opinion and point of view entirely, in no way do I believe that people in general think like I do.
I think the RNG (random number generator) factor of gaming as it has been since the beginning and up until now is completely stupid (MMORPG wise that is).
Massive Multiplayer Online games are here to let people build a community and communicate with people around the world. Something you'd never be able to do otherwise when it comes to something like this. This ought to be a positive experience where people have fun playing together and do things together to have >>fun<<.
I realize the term fun is widely discussable since every persons view of fun can be so very different, still, I believe that games can be catered to the masses if done right. You can't please every single gamer on this planet with one game, obviously not, but I believe that it can be 10 times better then what todays MMORPG's are able to achieve.
>>> Induvidual rewarding <<<
I believe that the future of MMORP gaming is induvidual rewarding.
World of Warcraft has it to an extent.
Quest items from quests, items from reputation vendors and so on. The biggest one is still the PvP reward system that functions exactly like that, you build up honor points / conquest points and spend them on whatever you fancy spending them on.
I am well aware that for PvE there are justice / valor points you can spend on gear as you wish but in my opinion it's not enough, far from it.
Guild Wars 2 as far as I know, will be using a completely induvidual reward system for everything you do together as a community. Personally I have been waiting on this for years now, more time then I even dare think about.
The number one thing that comes to mind these days with an MMORPG and people playing together is griefing.
I sub to the WoW official magazine and even in there in one of the releases they talked heavily about guilds and loot.
Even some of the most well known guilds and some fairly large guilds up over the years has experienced issues with loot, some so drastic that the guild has gotten disbanded because of it and people getting unfriendly towards eachother.
I ask, why? WHY DOES THIS HAVE TO HAPPEN? The answer, as simple as it is, it doesn't need to happen.
I'll name some of the things going on in WoW as a reference that makes things bad for players in general.
People need rolling on whatever they are able to. Need rolling on things just to disenchant them and use it for enchanting if they have the profession. Need rolling on things that aren't optimal for your class, I.E: A Warrior need rolling an agility ring even though it's been made more or less obsolete now in Cataclysm.
People with one spec that has dual spec offspec need rolling on a piece of gear in 5 man instances while someone that's dedicated to a spec gets fairly angry for losing the roll on an item the person was after. Example: A dps need rolling a stamina trinket that the tank was out after and has done several runs to try and get.
Remove the RNG factor of loot in gaming, in WoW the RNG factor isn't there for PvP gear, why should it be for PvE gear?
Reward people induvidually so people have no reason to argue or grief over something that shouldn't really be an issue in a community game where people should be playing together and have fun and be happy.
I know many people will say that it's not RPG if the RNG factor isn't there. Says who? Why is it a written rule that a game needs to have a RNG factor to be a type of game.
There is no fun if you know how much you need to put into the game to get something. Why? Is it more fun running an instance 30 times, never seeing what you need drop or if it drops you lose it to someone else wanting it, or someone that doesn't even need it.
Is it more fun running a raid that has one week cooldown for 2 months+ with the same same as above being true.
In my opinion, no, it's not. It's boring and it sucks, big time.
I'm not talking "easymode" that's not what I'm about at all, obviously you should need to put something into a game to get something out of it, or there isn't much fun. But as things are now, at least in WoW, the griefing and hate because of loot and harvesting and other things are quite bad. I know I've been feeling sorry for a lot of people.
TL;DR: The RNG factor of online gaming needs to go, reward people induvidually across the board for what they do in-game instead of all the griefing and hate going on.
Gaming companies just turn their shoulder to all of the issues about things like these.
RNG, drop rates, griefing, stealing, node stealing, node griefing.
IT DOES NOT PROMOTE A COMMUNITY.
Promoting a community is exactly what MMORPG's should be about if I'm not mistaken.
People should be working towards a goal that they want themselves, and not be griefed out of that goal because of other people.
In a perfect world it would probably work, but it will never work in the world we live in.
Regardless, I still hate the RNG factor where I run a specific instance for a drop 15 times and still don't see what I want.
Feel free to call me a QQ'er or whiner, I don't mind, it just shows how little you yourself care about the issue at hand, because that's what it is, a big issue in todays world of MMO gaming.
I'd like to thank anyone reading this and coming with constructive feedback, it's appreciated!
Signed
Someone who is tired of all the griefing and hating going on in todays MMO games when it comes to loot and gear.
Edit: There are more things that I wanted to say and probably something I missed but this is what I could come up with in a single brainstorming session about the issue at hand 
The people and the friends that we have lost, and the dreams that have faded, never forget them~
Comments
You're not complaining about random number generators. You're complaining about badly designed loot systems. If it bothers you, then the solution is simple: quit WoW and play other games with better designed loot systems. For example, Guild Wars has no loot controversies analogous to what you cite.
Fixt!
Has nothing to do with that, it has only to do with how loot is distributed to players. It needs to be distributed fairly, and stay outside the reach of grief and players hating on eachother and being angry because of loot.
You are either missing my point completely or you haven't read the whole post, same goes for Quizzical.
Yes, I'm also complaining about random number generators, along with how people grief eachother when it comes to loot.
I am merely casually playing WoW for now until Guild Wars 2 comes out, playing Guild Wars 1 isn't an option since it's an old game.
Furthermore, playing another game in general is quite pointless as all MMO games on the market has this same loot type where you are forced to gamble on people being honest and nice on the top of getting the things you want, to drop.
We've had this for over a decade now, it's time for a change. Arenanet is changing the mold of it with Guild Wars 2, my only hope is that more and more developers follow in their footsteps.
I can understand that most people want it the way it is so they have a tough time, are able to grief others and generally do a dungeon 20 times if unlucky without seeing what they want, drop, because that's just how people are.
Problem is, I simple can't understand it, there is no point in it.
The people and the friends that we have lost, and the dreams that have faded, never forget them~
You have a point, the entire loot and gear system of MMOs should be revamped. Same goes for crafting.
I don'ecactly agree 100% with you and I also think that MMOs should take a step back and let attributes and skills have more importance as should character development. Items are just too important in most games of today.
It is not truly the sword that is important but the hand that wields it.
It will be interesting to see what people think when they try out GW 2s view of looting and gear relevance, I am looking forward to it myself but I think there will be an outcry from some of the players.
GW2 is not perfect here in my opinion but it is a step in the right direction, it will be really interesting to see what CCP and White wold do in World of darkness online, they might go further.
You're complaining about random numbers in general? Really? Did I miss your portion of the post where you went on an extended rant about what a horrible idea crit chance is, rather than every single attack doing exactly the same damage? About how horrible it is for mobs to wander a little randomly, rather than standing in one fixed spot or wandering on a completely fixed route? Random number generators are used in the background for an enormous number of things in online games, not just deciding who gets what loot.
Using a random number generator to decide who gets loot can easily be a problem, but there are many places where it adds more variety to the game. Without any randomness, botting an instance would be completely trivial: record what you do for one run, and then just run a macro to do exactly the same thing for subsequent runs. Start the instance, fire up the macro, and go get lunch.
If Guild Wars is too old of a game for you to play, then why are you playing WoW? WoW is older than Guild Wars, you know.
Some games have had the loot problems you describe for more than a decade. But some haven't. And if you don't like badly designed loot systems, then just play a different game.
At their core Video Games are basically a series of random number generators, with stories and flashy graphics.
Seriously, that's pretty much all a game is.
WOW has so many great checks/balances against this kind of thing nowadays that it's almost melodrama to make it sound like a huge point of failure.
Sure, things might've been better if justice/valor point gear was a bit better (given that these point systems are exactly what the OP seems to want.)
Sure, some of the rolling rules are occasionally offkilter. But personally I've probably got ~5 pieces of Cata loot so far which were non-ideal spec stuff -- yet these items were nevertheless strong upgrades for each character at the time I rolled on them.
Sure, it might even be nice to enforce role in need/greed (to prioritize the tanks who're actually tanking and need an item, for example.)
But none of this points of failure are substantial enough to prevent the loot system for working just fine. My characters have progressed pretty steadily through loot upgrades and it's rare to go 2-3 dungeons without a useful upgrade. The bigger problem is players not taking heroics seriously, and getting the group wiped with bad play.
EDIT: Really if we're talking about community, the inability to do a random dungeon group, /friend those players, and run more dungeons on a subsequent day is one of the biggest detractors from community nowadays.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
It annoys me when people say they've played a bunch of different mmos, then make sweeping generalizations about the genre while citing nothing but WoW references. I call bs on this post. Get some more mmo experience. There are so many mmoprgs out there that have non rng loot.
Games are not always about RNG.
Chess is 100% deterministic.
But we are talking about RPGs, so RNG tends to have a greater presence than usual. But I think the OP is mostly talking about loot RNG, which is a pretty specific type of RNG.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I didn't say games, I very carefully said "video games". There are quite a few games out there, that have no randomness to them at all. Chess, Backgammon, Go, Reversi, Checkers, etc. etc. etc.
However, these games being converted to video games, is not the same thing as Batman: Arkham Asylum, WoW, or even Sid Mier's Pirates. At their heart are not much different than any Card Game or Yahtzee.
Um, tons of videogames aren't driven by random numbers. Most of the best multiplayer games are completely deterministic (RTS, FPS, Fighting.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Are you sure about that?
RTSs handle like RPGs on the unit level. So, that's completely out of the window. RTSs are more like Poker, than Chess. The best and most realistic series of RTSs ever released, would even have your unit randomly run off screaming out of fear when faced with an enemy. (Close Combat)
FPS incorporate recoil, which is a controlled randomness. It may not seem like it, but I'm a pretty strong CoD player and I have been killed because I recoiled completely around an opponent.
As well as quite a few other factors, even in simple games like CoD (as far as shooting is concerned) where there is no bullet drop or wind resistance. Mostly deterministic, possibly. Completely, not so much. Not to mention in the more advanced games you have random strikes called into general areas by players, or in the CoD series with the Helicopters that randomly go around.
Fighting.... not too sure about that, you're probably right there. But, then again. I'm sure there are quite a bit of randomness at it's lowest level. Haven't been into fighting games since Mortal Kombat 3 and Tekken 3, so it's been a while. However, against a computer there is a bit of controlled randomness.
I have never said what a horrible idea crit chance is, nor anything about mobs wandering randomly.
The people and the friends that we have lost, and the dreams that have faded, never forget them~
Don't you people understand, I'm talking about the GRIEFING in most of todays MMORPG's, where people screw other people over most chances they get when it comes to loot.
Where a person gets angry when he loses a roll or doesn't get something because someone else gets it instead.
This has caused entire guilds to disband, even good guilds.
It does not have to be like this, Guild Wars 2 will be using induvidual rewarding for each and every player.
Why, why on earth do people not want induvidual rewarding? Does everyone really prefer having to fight others over obtaining gear when they play a game, I simply can't understand that...
I REPEAT MYSELF: Rolling, RNG and arguing over >>gear<< with how badly things can get, >>DOES NOT<< promote a community.
What an online game should be doing at it's core is promote the community and help people get along and have fun together.
Not put people up against eachother because that is the nature of most humans, greed. Notice me writing most, not all.
Most is still the majority.
Yes, there are many games that has a pretty good community, WoW is obviously pretty bad with that, but that is the game I play, so I take my point of view from that, simple as.
But most games also has a huge part of people that don't care about others, the game company needs those people aswell to keep the game successful.
The people and the friends that we have lost, and the dreams that have faded, never forget them~
The fact that WoW is older has nothing to do with it. I have never played Guild Wars 1, I have invested A LOT of time into WoW up over the years, it's been my game of choice, wether I've liked it or not.
When I first decide to take the step to change the game I play (my poison of choice), I want it to be something new and refreshing.
Guild Wars 2 fits that, but it won't be coming out for quite some time.
The problem here is that since the beginning of MMORPG's, I have been wanting induvidual rewarding for players in MMORPG's, as far as I can tell, Arenanet is the first developer that will be doing that on such a grand scale, and I for one, welcome it with open arms.
I've been waiting for it for like 8-9 years or so. What I'm saying is, I hope more game developers catch on to this, but for that to happen, Guild Wars 2 needs to be successful.
The people and the friends that we have lost, and the dreams that have faded, never forget them~
First of all,you got away from the RNG,but i will tell you that FFXI uses the most elaborate/complex formulas of any game.They use RNG but they add several other factors into the equation,so that you can't break the game.It sort of also removes the rng factor even though it is still used in the formulas.Many say they are trying to create a mathematical equation with end result a curve more so than just spewing out random numbers.
As for loot,i think the biggest problem is too many people spend ALL their time worrying about it.What i see is a lot of complaining about attaining the best loot,so eventually we will see games do similar things to what Wow has tried to do.Make the game real easy to get to the stage of loot chasing.This keeps them coming back over and over,they are not even playing a game anymore,they are playing a few select maps that alllow them to chase to top end loot.
No the FUTURE of online gaming has nothing to do with copy cat loot design,the future is in realistic virtual 3d.Not sure i said that right,what i mean is similar to what we see in the Wii games,players at home will have attachments that allow them to move and interact in a realistic way,so what you do at home is shown on the screen.The bummer for myself is this technology is probably at least the next big windows platform away.Then it will take several years for developers to begin developing to that newest standard,so probably 10-15+ more years until we see the real future of gaming.
As usual the future will probably be seen first in first person shooters,MMORPG's tend to lack behind because of higher system demands for MMORPG's.Epic games ,seems to be very smart,they never sit back on their money,they are constantly forming partners with new age tech,constantly looking for ways to improve,so i expect we might see the future in an Epic games release.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Those are both controlled by random number generators. In my first post on this thread, I said that I didn't think you were complaining about random number generators in general, but only bad loot systems in particular. You denied that, insisting that you're complaining about random number generators in general.
But now, you say that you didn't complain about some of the common applications of random number generators, which was my point. Furthermore, you make it sound as though you have no problem with them. So which is it: are you complaining about random number generators in general, as you insisted earlier but are now backing away from, or only about bad loot systems?
"Don't you people understand, I'm talking about the GRIEFING in most of todays MMORPG's, where people screw other people over most chances they get when it comes to loot."
"I REPEAT MYSELF: Rolling, RNG and arguing over >>gear<< with how badly things can get, >>DOES NOT<< promote a community."
Now you're repeatedly insisting that the problem is the loot system. So, are you only complaining that some games, particularly WoW, have horrible loot systems? Or are you complaining about random number generators in general?
Seems to me that this is a problem with communities rather than loot systems. If you always play with friends or player reputation counts for anything then loot problems are rare.
When it becomes normal to only play with strangers then, of course, everyone starts to look after themselves. Let's not kid ourselves that individual loot improves the community. It simply hides the problem by eliminating yet another form of social interaction and making community even less important as a result.
This. Character progression through itemization is going to breed contempt from the playerbase towards one another. WoW in particular has done a very fine job indeed of causing unnecessary competition, mistrust, and egotism in its players from a combination of too many game mechanics than I can think of, but the solocentric leveling switch to group focused raiding does a lot. WoW makes the shiny gear rewards more important than any other aspect of the game, they give you a game where leveling to cap the NPCs treat you like you're the most precious little snowflake that is entitled to everything Azeroth has to offer- then thrusts you into a dynamic where you have to get along with all the other snowflakes and work together or advancement halts. For some reason, on a psychological perspective that doesn't seem like the brightest idea for community-building.
I've only played a free trial of the original Guild Wars, but it was described to me that loot was not all that special or hard to come by (the big difference in what was acquired in the high end was more looks than anything) and when the importance of that is taken away, then you don't have a community like the seagulls from Finding Nemo.
The main problem is Blizzard's generall laziness and complete disregard for the majority of their player base. With Diablo, Blizzard had the handle on real random loot drops. Everybody had the same chance to get really nice loot. Then they dropped the ball when Thotbott came along and started cataloguing everything in the game. Instead of blocking the add-ons, as they said was their intention, they decided to make use of it. They had to explain less that way. People were conditioned to "do research" and "check a site" to see where the things they wanted were. This led to more sloppy design and overall compartmentalization of the game, as well as a stark contrast between the Haves (people who were able to spend hours and hours in the game) and the Have-Nots (the majority, those with real-world limitations).
More and more of game items are Bind-On-Pickup. This is designed to drive players into gameplay they may not enjoy, just to have something to show for the insane amounts of time WoW now demands.
"Soloists and those who prefer small groups should never have to feel like they''re the ones getting the proverbial table scraps, as it were." - Scott Hartsman, Senior Producer, Everquest II
"People love groups. Its a fallacy that people want to play solo all the time." - Scott Hartsman, Executive Producer, Rift
Greed and desire only lead to suffering. If that is what motivates your gameplay then you will never be satisfied. No game mechanic will ever change this.
Okay that is your lesson in Buddhism for the day.
At least Garvon3 understands where I'm coming from.
You're right Quizzical, I did mess up the meanings a bit.
In the end, what I mean is, it should be a bit ovious by now:
I have no issue at all with the other RNG factors of MMO gaming, the only RNG factor I have a issue with is the loot / gear part.
Only when it comes to instances and raiding, because that's where the main problems are, I don't have an issue with anything outside that.
The loot system is RNG, I wish the RNG part of loot systems could just go away, on top of that, reward players induvidually for what they do.
If you are after a specific item, it would be good to know just how much time / work you'd need to put into the game to get said item. It shouldn't be easy or easymode, but with the way things are now I have quite a few examples up over the years where people have worked their butt off for days, weeks, even months on end, without coming up with what they're after, even if said loot / equipment is pretty mainstream and in the first place shouldn't be that hard to obtain.
Now over to Ebonfly.
If you remove a side problem with community, you can move over to trying to fix the main problems that is screwing up the genre. In the end, people, you and me, others, are screwing it up.
Simply put, most people that can't care less about others, has to be forced into doing it.
But to an extent so that those of us that are kind, and play for the team, don't feel like we're getting shafted big time.
About not playing with random people. That's the problem, playing with random people is what I enjoy to do, but as things are now, at least in WoW, it's just too painful to do so.
You meet some nice people once in a while, but the bad one's screw up the experience completely.
The people and the friends that we have lost, and the dreams that have faded, never forget them~
Haha pierth, I immensely enjoyed that last part of your post
It was very funny and a good point indeed, with the picture and all.
Edit: pierth hit things spot on with his post, with how things are screwed up designwise across the board.
Double edit, instead of making two posts.
LordDraekon, you have some very good points also, that adds to the subject at hand.
The people and the friends that we have lost, and the dreams that have faded, never forget them~
Carrot is better than the stick, reward nice people instead of forcing everyone.
Now ninja looters and other jerks get rewarded in most games and that is asking for trouble.