The character is now, that I don't play. Sadly there were a few people long before you came around that ruined the game for me. She makes use of them to help support Ryzom. I'm not sure what your trying to get at m8, but if you want Ryzom to stay around, trolling it's members isn't the best way to go about it. All your doing is hurting the few people that actually care and devote most of their time playing. We both understand what your stance is, and we get it. Your upset at those who multibox and use software to sync keys. Trashing Ryzom's players and their good names in this crusade your on is only going to drive more people away. So I humbly ask you to stop. It isn't worth watching Ryzom die over something so silly. It just isn't.
You are a bit confused. that people you mention only demonstrate the contrary... they really don't care of ryzom when they use bots to play.... I know a lot of people that really supported ryzom, no matter what's happened in the past, and no matter how the devs are improving the game..... and I include myself into. People that payed the bills even if not logging in game at all.
This people is now tired of stupidity around a game and are leaving, probably they already left.
Asking to help support ryzom, regardless of what happens and how some people act unpunished, is wrong. You can't win with this argument.
And I don't think jwentig (and me) are trashing ryzom, we are trashing the botters.
I think it just comes down to the fact that if it were handled better, TI wouldn't be leaving the server. Sadly, the Karavans have been leaving for a bit now, probably due to the botting as your calling it. There was a big stink about 2 months or so ago when a guild called TPM came back and started demanding things from them. It was pretty bad, and alot of people got fed up and left for greener pastures.
I completely agree with you about that it makes an unfair playing field, and if it is against the rules, TOS, EULA, or rules of conduct, then it is wrong and shouldn't be done. I myself am not one who really gets involved in it, nor does my wife. I know of the software, and understand the concept behind it, but to me it is a very fuzzy line, and one I'm not comfortable treading.
Sadly, the way the CSR's dealt with it, the fact that there still hasn't been an offical statement about it, the fact that it is buried in a thread that wasn't even about the subject at hand, is what those who were using sync'ing software are upset about. There is a right and wrong way to go about it, and sadly they chose the wrong way in regards to this.
As far as those who asked first and were told it was ok, that were using key sync'ing to play, I do truly feel they cared about Ryzom. Maybe not so much anymore due to all this, but I know they cared. For many it was their home, and logged in everyday to hang out, play, boss hunt, etc. Aside from the last 2 days, the servers have been seriously quiet. The only reason it hasn't been is because TI has decided to take all the OP's before they leave. Sadly, no one has showed up to the 4 wars, nor does it seem that they even care anymore. It is ashame really.
I wasn't saying you were trashing the game. Sadly Aeralin and Iala don't get along and he is one of the reasons the CSR's changed their opinion on this subject. Mokoi knew what the software was, what it was used for when he ok'ed it a year ago, and now due to a few complaining, he went back on that decision. That is their decision, and I personally support whatever the CSR's think it is best for the game. But please make it offical, and let those who are knowingly doing so to please be advised that the rules changed, instead of harassing them, following them around, even though they can't prove one way or another they are using the software.
It is what it is really. I just hate seeing all this negative stuff around a game like this. It doesn't promote a good community if we are always fighting. If 75 accounts are going offline mid feburary, then I'd think it best to not kill it for potential new players who may enjoy ryzom. Ryzom will always hold a special place in my heart, but sadly it isn't home for me anymore.
Your argument is fairly wrong. Taking WoW as the example of a definition is wrong. Only the TOS of a specific game can define the terms and you must refer to that definition only (because every game can have different macro systems or no macroing at all). Using WoW as the source of a definition is totally wrong.
Macro system in Ryzom is totally different from WoW and doesn't allow to have a macro with a sequence of keypresses (more than 2) binded in one key. You must use a third party software to do that in ryzom.
Macroing is allowed, botting is not. If you press ONE key and send the single key to all your characters (that require a THIRD PARTY software), that's botting, not macroing. If you press one key for EACH character you are playing, that's not botting.
I had in the past some not-so-good discussion with jwentig (aka Iala in ryzom), because often i was misinterpreted.
Aanyway this fact doesn't prevent me to agree with Iala about this discussion.
And you all should stop defending the wrong side, if arispotle is empty you must blame all the botters, that are playing ILLEGALLY, not the multiboxers without bots.
I didn't just take WoW as an example of a definition. If you had read all the links you would have seen that almost EVERY major publisher allows multi-boxing. Just because your game doesn't allow it doesn't make it botting, it just means that they have outlawed multi-boxing. You and jwenting are the ones using ONE example as the rule and it isn't the case.
I have read all the links. In fact I clearly said that multi boxing is legal.
How it is considered botting or not, depends by the specific game and by the definition of botting, that universally means "using third party software to gain an advantage vs other players that's not part of the official game client".
If a CSR in a private conversation allowed any sort of botting (with or without multiboxing), the player should have asked for an official statement and eventually advise the dev team and/or seniors about the subject.
I remember discussions in the past, but I have NEVER read anything allowing botting. I remember a clear statement about multiboxing, legal as long as you use each character manually (no third party software) and nothing more.
If people wanted to misinterpret that for their benefits, it's their fault, and it's the fault of the devs too, doing nothing to stop the botting.
Do you really think you can manage a game community as it is a small group of friends? Even in a small group of friends can happen wrong things....
Just because we love the game we don't want to support a wrong behaviour that, of course, would kill any game, not just ryzom.
Finally, me and Iala, are just saying the truth: my definition in previous post is exactly the rules applied in ryzom, not from release (because at beginning multiboxing was not allowed), but when they publicly allowed the use of the command line switch /multi (to start more clients in a single pc). BUT BOTTING WAS NEVER ALLOWED.
Search the official forums, go read the TOS and stop arguing on something you don't know.
I have read all the links. In fact I clearly said that multi boxing is legal.
How it is considered botting or not, depends by the specific game and by the definition of botting, that universally means "using third party software to gain an advantage vs other players that's not part of the official game client".
If a CSR in a private conversation allowed any sort of botting (with or without multiboxing), the player should have asked for an official statement and eventually advise the dev team and/or seniors about the subject.
I remember discussions in the past, but I have NEVER read anything allowing botting. I remember a clear statement about multiboxing, legal as long as you use each character manually (no third party software) and nothing more.
If people wanted to misinterpret that for their benefits, it's their fault, and it's the fault of the devs too, doing nothing to stop the botting.
Do you really think you can manage a game community as it is a small group of friends? Even in a small group of friends can happen wrong things....
Just because we love the game we don't want to support a wrong behaviour that, of course, would kill any game, not just ryzom.
Finally, me and Iala, are just saying the truth: my definition in previous post is exactly the rules applied in ryzom, not from release (because at beginning multiboxing was not allowed), but when they publicly allowed the use of the command line switch /multi (to start more clients in a single pc). BUT BOTTING WAS NEVER ALLOWED.
Search the official forums, go read the TOS and stop arguing on something you don't know.
Don't tell me what I do or don't know. I know more about this subject than you obviously. Not only am I familiar with Ryzoms case but also with the gaming community as a whole. So maybe you should take your own advice and stop arguing what you don't know. You obiously don't know the difference between botting and multi-boxing. they are different things. using 3rd party software to send a keyboard signal to multiple clients IS NOT botting period. Neither is a hardware solution that does the same which you have never addressed. I have read the official forums and the TOS for Ryzom. Neither of them refer to the sending of keyboard signals to multiple clients as botting. So your continued use of the word is just your opinion. Also the TOS is very vague on the subject and an argument can be made that multi-boxing is perfectly legal anyway. But Ryzom has the right to interperet the rule as they see fit, but just because Ryzom has made the decision to outlaw multi-boxing it does not change the universal definitions of what botting and mult-boxing are. You are clearly passionate about your game and that is admirable, but don't let your fanboy mentality cloud you critical thinking skills.
Also stop and think a minute about what you are doing when you call multi-boxing botting. It is insulting to all of us multi-boxers out there who enjoy the challenge of running multiple characters at once in whatever our chosen game is. We are not cheaters. We are not botters.
I have read all the links. In fact I clearly said that multi boxing is legal.
How it is considered botting or not, depends by the specific game and by the definition of botting, that universally means "using third party software to gain an advantage vs other players that's not part of the official game client".
If a CSR in a private conversation allowed any sort of botting (with or without multiboxing), the player should have asked for an official statement and eventually advise the dev team and/or seniors about the subject.
I remember discussions in the past, but I have NEVER read anything allowing botting. I remember a clear statement about multiboxing, legal as long as you use each character manually (no third party software) and nothing more.
If people wanted to misinterpret that for their benefits, it's their fault, and it's the fault of the devs too, doing nothing to stop the botting.
Do you really think you can manage a game community as it is a small group of friends? Even in a small group of friends can happen wrong things....
Just because we love the game we don't want to support a wrong behaviour that, of course, would kill any game, not just ryzom.
Finally, me and Iala, are just saying the truth: my definition in previous post is exactly the rules applied in ryzom, not from release (because at beginning multiboxing was not allowed), but when they publicly allowed the use of the command line switch /multi (to start more clients in a single pc). BUT BOTTING WAS NEVER ALLOWED.
Search the official forums, go read the TOS and stop arguing on something you don't know.
Don't tell me what I do or don't know. I know more about this subject than you obviously. Not only am I familiar with Ryzoms case but also with the gaming community as a whole. So maybe you should take your own advice and stop arguing what you don't know. You obiously don't know the difference between botting and multi-boxing. they are different things. using 3rd party software to send a keyboard signal to multiple clients IS NOT botting period. Neither is a hardware solution that does the same which you have never addressed. I have read the official forums and the TOS for Ryzom. Neither of them refer to the sending of keyboard signals to multiple clients as botting. So your continued use of the word is just your opinion. Also the TOS is very vague on the subject and an argument can be made that multi-boxing is perfectly legal anyway. But Ryzom has the right to interperet the rule as they see fit, but just because Ryzom has made the decision to outlaw multi-boxing it does not change the universal definitions of what botting and mult-boxing are. You are clearly passionate about your game and that is admirable, but don't let your fanboy mentality cloud you critical thinking skills.
Also stop and think a minute about what you are doing when you call multi-boxing botting. It is insulting to all of us multi-boxers out there who enjoy the challenge of running multiple characters at once in whatever our chosen game is. We are not cheaters. We are not botters.
You acknowledge that the proper functioning and success of an Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game such as Ryzom and/or Ryzom Ring depends on a delicate balance which Winch Gate Property Limited has to maintain. The User is therefore strictly forbidden: (a) to use any program or method to change the content or functionalities of the MMORPG; (b) to cause the server to be overloaded; (c) to use any procedure to make it easier to obtain any instruction faster than through the ordinary course of play ; (d) to modify the user interface or any other component in order to obtain objects, experience points, currency, characters' attributes, ranks, etc., other than as the result of proper normal use of the MMORPG; (e) to buy, sell or transfer MMORPG characters or their attributes. Furthermore, the User must at all times observe the Code of Conduct, the Courtesy Policies and the Ryzom Naming Charter displayed on the MMORPG's website at www.ryzom.com, whose contents are hereby declared an integral part of this Contract. We reserve the right to take any emergency measures on your account (including suspending or canceling it) which we think fit, if we believe that your use is contravening the above prohibitions.
Using a third-party program or taking advantage of a bug in the game in order to gain an advantage over other players, or profiting from anything that is not provided by the game or the game mechanics either for personal or other use, is considered a exploit. Upon finding an exploit, you can contact us via the means described above. Note that this rule is a direct consequence of the CoC and so any breaches will be dealt with severely.
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These are general statements that simply and clear tells everyone you are wrong stating that sending keyboard to all clients with a third party software (or hardware, as it's a "method") is not botting. And, even if it is not botting, it is exploiting as cleared by Boroshi in 2009. AND IT'S NOT ALLOWED AND NEVER WAS.
That post was made by Boroshi after the comunity asked for clear rules about many subjects, included pvp and OP battles.
Period.
I play Ryzom since december 2004, and i have 310 days effective time spent in Atys. I know the game very well and I know all the debates inside the community.
I already explained what is botting and multi-boxing, i suspect you have not read carefully and extensively my previous posts. If you don't understand what I have written, it's not my fault.
I never wrote that multi-boxing is botting!! Multi boxing is allowed as I clearly stated in my previous posts.
But a legal multi-boxing cannot use third party software or "method" to automate the operations.
If you use your fingers to play in a multi boxing environment it's perfectly legal.
It's so hard to understand this??
Your definition of multi boxing (with allowed third party software to send a single keystroke to all the clients) is simply WRONG.... that became botting. Period.
I am going to point out section "e" of the Rules of Behavior you have copied here.
This also was being blatantly abused. One of the individuals 6 boxing at OPs was using characters/accounts that were not his orginally. He did not level all of the characters. He feels that as long as he is currently paying the subscription, all should be fine.
I can understand that somewhat as more subscriptions means more money for the Devs.
But it is an unfair advantage, if you want multiple accounts -- it is clear from the Rules of Behavior that you have to create all the accounts and play all the characters yourself.
Look at Aeralin's posts -- she is clearly admitting to a violation of this policy -- Rustayn is not her character or her account -- apparrently it's her husbands. Blatant? -- no. And if done in moderation and just used for GH storage and transfer of items, I doubt I or anyone else cares much. Let her use her husbands account as a 2nd account while he takes a break from Ryzom, why force her to create a whole new account just to accomplish some minor functionability, But look at what it leads to -- someone 6 boxing using software that sends one keystroke/mousestroke to multiply clients using characters/accounts lent to him by other players. Not only affecting PvP but allowing him to boss hunt in Wastelands with a 6 boxing group that can kill KPs without using Auras-- big advantage gained without all the effort spent to actually level those characters -- not to mention the botting.
Botting to me always meant automatting gameplay -- so I have always gone by the rule that I need to use seperate keyboard and mouse strokes for each action/macro by each character that I play -- so I personally use a seperate computer for each character/account. Running 2 clients on a single computer always seemed to me to present a problem of the OS only allowing 1 keyboard on the computer and even though 2 mice can be used -- they would wander between windows easily. Now a third party software that allowed multiply keyboards and mice to be used on a single computer and say assigned a seperate mouse and keyboard to each client/window would be great -- and not botting ( at least to me ).
If there is a community of Multiboxers that don't consider sending single keyboard/mouse strokes to multiply characters to be botting, I feel for them somewhat ( as it could be seen as art and requires some effort to setup ) but as far as I'm concerned it is botting and I think if the whole MMORPG community considered and adressed the issue -- it would too.
Look at Aeralin's posts -- she is clearly admitting to a violation of this policy -- Rustayn is not her character or her account -- apparrently it's her husbands. Blatant? -- no. And if done in moderation and just used for GH storage and transfer of items, I doubt I or anyone else cares much. Let her use her husbands account as a 2nd account while he takes a break from Ryzom, why force her to create a whole new account just to accomplish some minor functionability
Wam, did you just accuse me of breaking ToS by using another account from my own household? With the same billing address, same credit card info? Same Last Name? I'm sure the ToS wasn't meant to be applied in this situation. If you feel it's a ToS violation, please go ahead and ticket me and we'll see how that ends up.
In regards to your use of mulitple computers, you may very well be running each client on a separate tower, but I've seen how completely in sync your toons are. I do not run software for my toons and they are nearly never in sync. May I remind you that you powerlevelled my PR dig and I watched all 4 of your toons operate for hours? I stopped digging with you because I refused to abuse the system anymore. I wouldn't allow 1 person, under the guise of 4 toons, to do all the work for me, unlike some others in my guild at the time. I knew I wouldn't have earned that master, and if I didn't earn it, what's the point in the title?
Whether I agree with the use of software or not is still moot, although I have never used it myself, which should speak volumes. Boroshi's post clearly states that multi-boxing software is illegal, and yet the CSR's allowed it to happen.
I agree that people who do wrong should be punished. When you look at the sitaution from the outside, whether or not those who use third-party programs or not thought is was wrong, they did check in with those responsible for interpreting the ToS to be sure of whether it was legal or not. Being told it was fine, they used it. The CSR's did wrong on this way by leading these users to believe it was okay, when in reality it wasn't. It's the CSR's job to keep track of the legal and not and to keep the players in step with this. They did not do this!
The CSR's have not issued a proper announcement reinforcing their change of mind. Instead, the post is buried in a thread with an unrelated subject heading. In addition, again, they follow players around when they admit they cannot prove the use of software. In the Real World, if I were followed around by someone, it's called harassment/stalking, but in a digital world it's ok? That makes absolutely no sense. I can see following someone if they are harassing someone else, or abusing a proveable exploit, but this cannot be proven.
Gil, you and Iala may be trashing the 'botters', but the negative publicity this thread is creating isn't helping Ryzom at all. As a new player reading this thread, I'd steer clear, no matter how much fun the game sounded.
I really hope that Ryzom survives this mess. I hope it stays around for years to come, and gets the following it deserves. I know, however, that there are people leaving game all the time, each for personal reasons. This mess even has me questioning whether I want to stay and play, when Ryzom is my home. I don't know if I want to keep playing a game that is ruled by CSR's who sway to public opinion. Who/what could be next?
Ignore his sillyness. He's still butt hurt we forced his boyfriend (SM) to quit and the kami's (and kara's) supported us in doing it and turned on her ... er him.
Ignore his sillyness. He's still butt hurt we forced his boyfriend (SM) to quit and the kami's (and kara's) supported us in doing us and turned on her ... er him.
And if this post is any indication of the player base no wonder people are leaving. Butt-hurt I mean come on its 2011.....
Ignore his sillyness. He's still butt hurt we forced his boyfriend (SM) to quit and the kami's (and kara's) supported us in doing us and turned on her ... er him.
And if this post is any indication of the player base no wonder people are leaving. Butt-hurt I mean come on its 2011.....
Ignore his sillyness. He's still butt hurt we forced his boyfriend (SM) to quit and the kami's (and kara's) supported us in doing us and turned on her ... er him.
And if this post is any indication of the player base no wonder people are leaving. Butt-hurt I mean come on its 2011.....
If you knew the situation, and his behavior, butt hurt about covers it to a T. I'm all for being very articulate, but yea. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...
The player base of Ryzom is a very intelligent group of people, who make clearly logical and well thought out arguments. We are also constantly together, as we're a small community, which means we annoy the heck out of each other every once in a while. I realize that my posts are most likely not helping the situation, but I am trying to make a point, just as everyone else is.
Aeralin, you are wrong about my gameplay -- I have been Multiboxing for 10 years iirc.
I not only put a lot of effort into the gameplay but also everything I need to accomplish it.
I have spent weeks making my furniture to 4 box Ryzom.
My characters are in sync because I place the mouse cursors over the macros that i expect to be using next -- if I'm caught off guard, I'm gonna have problems -- which is why I'm not very good at OP battles 4 boxing -- gameplay at OPs is just too fast and unpredictable for my 4 boxing to be very effrective --- some of best effects for factions I have supported have come when the other faction focus's on me, I can distinctly remembering twice my 4 going done and my rezzing thinking we had lost the battle only to find out the others had won the battle, hehe.
As regards Power Leveling -- It is legal and you do it too. I have seen many guilds attempt pretty much the same thing the 2 of us did. You may not have wanted to do PLing with me helping you but it was a challenge for me to do it. PLing another player to Master PR dig and ability to do all craft patterns in game was a big accomplishment for me that took a lot of effort on my part and the other players part. It pushed my boxing ability to the max, by far the most difficult grinding activity I have boxed. By the way it was also a very big challenge for the other player too, to me it looked like it was about as hard for her playing one character as it was for me to do my 4 boxing part PLing her. I believe it was actually a lot harder and more fun than the normal way players level their dig skills. It was also a lot faster -- about 2-3 months, 4-6 hours a day iirc. And it was a Social Activity for both of us. We did not bot -- either of us!!!!
It was also a disappointment to me that you were not up for it as I had things I wanted to try out Pling you and her at the same time, but after PLing her, I doubt any of them would have worked even if you had been willing to put forth the effort.
As for SMs leaving Ryzom, SM was a very good ingame friend of mine and yes I do blame you for creating the situation that caused her and my other very good ingame friend to leave Ryzom. And maybe I wouldn't have joined those complaining of blatant and major violations of botting and sharing of characters if I was still allied with you and your allies.
As for a lot of players disliking me. I have never botted, never even looked for botting hardware or software. Many players seeing me 4 box and 4 box well from reactions I get -- presume and believe that I bot -- and no matter how much I try and tell them I don't, they just do not believe me. Even you and the great 6 boxer who have spent weeks doing ingame activities with me, think I bot.
There are several other reasons many of the other players dislike me and I dislike them, There are many legitimate game activities that cause friction among players and sometimes lead to disliking of others -- for instance I don't think Iala or Gilga much care for me or I them. I don't expect to like everyone or everyone to like me. Oh btw, not everyone dislikes me, some even like me.
Guess I need to make a home movie of myself 4 boxing and killing Raj, Kinkoo, trekking thru PR, digging Kitin Larvae, etc... and then you'ld still think I doctored the video, right?
As for your violation of the Rules of Behavior, you can read obviously. Read it -- no sharing of characters! When you create an account -- its your account and no one elses ever, simple ( my opinion of course ).
That goes for Spouses, Children, Parents, other relatives, Friends, Guildies -- just as much as it does for 2 players living on opposite sides of the world who only interact in Ryzom. Nowl, I could care less of minor violations but I have already posted what it has led to ingame and I did complain to the GMs about it.
There's a free 21 day trial for anyone that wants to try out Ryzom for free, of course your free to have anyone watch you play Ryzom.
As for myself, I am the only person who has ever played any of the characters on my 4 accounts.
Aeralin, you are wrong about my gameplay -- I have been Multiboxing for 10 years iirc.
I not only put a lot of effort into the gameplay but also everything I need to accomplish it.
I have spent weeks making my furniture to 4 box Ryzom.
My characters are in sync because I place the mouse cursors over the macros that i expect to be using next -- if I'm caught off guard, I'm gonna have problems -- which is why I'm not very good at OP battles 4 boxing -- gameplay at OPs is just too fast and unpredictable for my 4 boxing to be very effrective --- some of best effects for factions I have supported have come when the other faction focus's on me, I can distinctly remembering twice my 4 going done and my rezzing thinking we had lost the battle only to find out the others had won the battle, hehe.
As regards Power Leveling -- It is legal and you do it too. I have seen many guilds attempt pretty much the same thing the 2 of us did. You may not have wanted to do PLing with me helping you but it was a challenge for me to do it. PLing another player to Master PR dig and ability to do all craft patterns in game was a big accomplishment for me that took a lot of effort on my part and the other players part. It pushed my boxing ability to the max, by far the most difficult grinding activity I have boxed. By the way it was also a very big challenge for the other player too, to me it looked like it was about as hard for her playing one character as it was for me to do my 4 boxing part PLing her. I believe it was actually a lot harder and more fun than the normal way players level their dig skills. It was also a lot faster -- about 2-3 months, 4-6 hours a day iirc. And it was a Social Activity for both of us. We did not bot -- either of us!!!!
It was also a disappointment to me that you were not up for it as I had things I wanted to try out Pling you and her at the same time, but after PLing her, I doubt any of them would have worked even if you had been willing to put forth the effort.
As for SMs leaving Ryzom, SM was a very good ingame friend of mine and yes I do blame you for creating the situation that caused her and my other very good ingame friend to leave Ryzom. And maybe I wouldn't have joined those complaining of blatant and major violations of botting and sharing of characters if I was still allied with you and your allies.
As for a lot of players disliking me. I have never botted, never even looked for botting hardware or software. Many players seeing me 4 box and 4 box well from reactions I get -- presume and believe that I bot -- and no matter how much I try and tell them I don't, they just do not believe me. Even you and the great 6 boxer who have spent weeks doing ingame activities with me, think I bot.
There are several other reasons many of the other players dislike me and I dislike them, There are many legitimate game activities that cause friction among players and sometimes lead to disliking of others -- for instance I don't think Iala or Gilga much care for me or I them. I don't expect to like everyone or everyone to like me. Oh btw, not everyone dislikes me, some even like me.
Guess I need to make a home movie of myself 4 boxing and killing Raj, Kinkoo, trekking thru PR, digging Kitin Larvae, etc... and then you'ld still think I doctored the video, right?
As for your violation of the Rules of Behavior, you can read obviously. Read it -- no sharing of characters! When you create an account -- its your account and no one elses ever, simple ( my opinion of course ).
That goes for Spouses, Children, Parents, other relatives, Friends, Guildies -- just as much as it does for 2 players living on opposite sides of the world who only interact in Ryzom. Nowl, I could care less of minor violations but I have already posted what it has led to ingame and I did complain to the GMs about it.
There's a free 21 day trial for anyone that wants to try out Ryzom for free, of course your free to have anyone watch you play Ryzom.
As for myself, I am the only person who has ever played any of the characters on my 4 accounts.
Glaz, Isahbel, Dureena, Galenn
The thing with SM is you don't know what the hell you're talking about. SM created that bs and ONLY SM. So the way you treated Aeralin was uncalled for. Simple as that.
Aeralin, you are wrong about my gameplay -- I have been Multiboxing for 10 years iirc.
I not only put a lot of effort into the gameplay but also everything I need to accomplish it.
I have spent weeks making my furniture to 4 box Ryzom.
My characters are in sync because I place the mouse cursors over the macros that i expect to be using next -- if I'm caught off guard, I'm gonna have problems -- which is why I'm not very good at OP battles 4 boxing -- gameplay at OPs is just too fast and unpredictable for my 4 boxing to be very effrective --- some of best effects for factions I have supported have come when the other faction focus's on me, I can distinctly remembering twice my 4 going done and my rezzing thinking we had lost the battle only to find out the others had won the battle, hehe.
As regards Power Leveling -- It is legal and you do it too. I have seen many guilds attempt pretty much the same thing the 2 of us did. You may not have wanted to do PLing with me helping you but it was a challenge for me to do it. PLing another player to Master PR dig and ability to do all craft patterns in game was a big accomplishment for me that took a lot of effort on my part and the other players part. It pushed my boxing ability to the max, by far the most difficult grinding activity I have boxed. By the way it was also a very big challenge for the other player too, to me it looked like it was about as hard for her playing one character as it was for me to do my 4 boxing part PLing her. I believe it was actually a lot harder and more fun than the normal way players level their dig skills. It was also a lot faster -- about 2-3 months, 4-6 hours a day iirc. And it was a Social Activity for both of us. We did not bot -- either of us!!!!
It was also a disappointment to me that you were not up for it as I had things I wanted to try out Pling you and her at the same time, but after PLing her, I doubt any of them would have worked even if you had been willing to put forth the effort.
As for SMs leaving Ryzom, SM was a very good ingame friend of mine and yes I do blame you for creating the situation that caused her and my other very good ingame friend to leave Ryzom. And maybe I wouldn't have joined those complaining of blatant and major violations of botting and sharing of characters if I was still allied with you and your allies.
As for a lot of players disliking me. I have never botted, never even looked for botting hardware or software. Many players seeing me 4 box and 4 box well from reactions I get -- presume and believe that I bot -- and no matter how much I try and tell them I don't, they just do not believe me. Even you and the great 6 boxer who have spent weeks doing ingame activities with me, think I bot.
There are several other reasons many of the other players dislike me and I dislike them, There are many legitimate game activities that cause friction among players and sometimes lead to disliking of others -- for instance I don't think Iala or Gilga much care for me or I them. I don't expect to like everyone or everyone to like me. Oh btw, not everyone dislikes me, some even like me.
Guess I need to make a home movie of myself 4 boxing and killing Raj, Kinkoo, trekking thru PR, digging Kitin Larvae, etc... and then you'ld still think I doctored the video, right?
As for your violation of the Rules of Behavior, you can read obviously. Read it -- no sharing of characters! When you create an account -- its your account and no one elses ever, simple ( my opinion of course ).
That goes for Spouses, Children, Parents, other relatives, Friends, Guildies -- just as much as it does for 2 players living on opposite sides of the world who only interact in Ryzom. Nowl, I could care less of minor violations but I have already posted what it has led to ingame and I did complain to the GMs about it.
There's a free 21 day trial for anyone that wants to try out Ryzom for free, of course your free to have anyone watch you play Ryzom.
As for myself, I am the only person who has ever played any of the characters on my 4 accounts.
Glaz, Isahbel, Dureena, Galenn
As I said, you've an issue with my using my husband's account, ticket me. Simple really.
You prove my point, that botting and running several toons on several different computers looks identical. And yet, players who run multiple toons are followed by CSRs. I don't doubt that multi-boxing can be done by a single person's hand, on multiple systems at that. I've seen builds that allow just that and look the same as any given software. Once again, I do not use this software. I see why others are upset by it. I also see the other side of the coin. I see players who went to those responsible for right from wrong, and those responsible did nothing. And now, they revise their decision, which they have the right to do. I'm not asking that they even reverse their decision, although it would make lots of people I know happy. I'm asking that they be professional. Convey the decision change as Boroshi posted in the past. Make the ToS less vague. Leave no room for interpretation. I'm not asking for Rocket Science, just simple change.
I also never said I haven't powerlevelled, nor would I. I have 1 alt, 1 simple alt. At times, I feel guilty for even using him, but over time, I've seen the difference that alt makes for my main, my guild, the amount I can give back to Atys. If the CSR's see fit to ban me for this, so be it. At least I'd have a clear cut answer.
Regarding SM, you didn't live inside of HoT. You got to see the sweet SM who bent over backwards for your help. You didn't see the insults she hurled at guildies, the way she treated me and others for having a different play style than she had. I asked for change within guild. I asked for a chance to make change. I gave months and months for that to happen. I asked SM to stay in game, to prove me wrong. I left HoT because I didn't want it to implode. I didn't want to create innerguild drama that would cause it to ultimately fall apart. Instead, I waited patiently for change, and when it didn't come, after giving notice that I was very unhappy, I left HoT. I even respected you enough to tell you personally of my decision, which took a lot tbh. Those who followed me did so of their own volition. It's apparent they were staying because I was in HoT, and when I left, so did they. I left HoT because logging in every day felt like going to work, and being the buffer between an unhappy guild and an egocentric GL wasn't my position of choice.
The other player who left game, Elo, I had personal reasons for not admitting to IF. She and I never got along. She talked about me behind my back to other guildies. Told others I was just a cat dispenser, that I was an ineffective leader, that the title of HO meant nothing. She fed into the very innerguild drama that I wanted to avoid, and lead to my leaving HoT. In addition, the other founders of IF had personal issues with her as well. Calling people noobs because they don't have as many titles as you do doesn't tend to go over well. Lording titles, when she was powerlevelled from start to finish, was insulting to those of us who'd worked like hell for our titles. If you feel the need to blame me that your friend didn't play well with others, then so be it.
I don't expect anyone in game or out to like me. My merits or lack thereof speaks for itself. I've worked hard to make IF successful, and will continue to do so. I love my guildies, and my friends. They are all family to me. Anyone who takes the time to get to know me can join that family as well. I don't ask for anything for IF, and expect nothing as well. We have fun in our little corner of Atys, and, as my little guild grows, even attracting members of other guilds because they see us having so much fun, I look forward to sharing everything I have and who I am on Atys and in RL with those who care to ask. Judge me as you will, anyone is welcome.
I play Ryzom because I love our community. I feel at home on Atys when I have nowhere else. I play Ryzom because it's fun, and, yes, fun is relative. I play Ryzom because I can go on a midnight mektoub run through PR with my guildies and laugh my ass off when we all die. I play Ryzom because I can dig a zone til the KT expires, have a friend show up to watch me die, laugh at me, and then rez my bum. I play Ryzom because I love it, just as the rest of you do.
How have I treated Aeralin after SM left -- I guess ignoring someone could be considered unfriendly but I basically do what I believe is reccommended if you don't get along with someone ingame -- play elsewhere as much as you can. As far as Aeralin's breaking the Rules of Behaviour -- its her posts -- its a public admittance as far as I can see -- apparrently she just doesn't get it -- these are after all MMORPGs --- now I'm not much of a roleplayer myself, more of a goal achiever than roleplayer, but I do enjoy the atmosphere at least -- but to me its obvious that 2 people can not roleplay the same character.
The situation that caused SM and my other ingame friend and another ingame aquantance that was a member of SMs guild to leave Ryzom ( lets see that there is 3 subs ), oh and should add another ingame friend that came back a month or 2 later and only stayed a week or so -- was well within the normal gameplay of Ryzom. I guess an example of how normal gameplay can cause hard feelings and even drive some from a game they have loved for years.
Did I react nicely to my allies that not only wouldn't help me defend my ally's OP but encouraged its being attacked while my ally's guild was still active even if SM had apparrently left Ryzom? Don't think so, I was terribly upset. Even managed to ward off the first declare with some friends helping and Kamis had to declare a second time and bring in more Kara friends to take the OP. Pretty proud of that. Normal gameplay, no problems as far as that goes. But if one thinks that is going to get my friendship, think they are mistaken. I've even tried to see if the Kara would be open to letting me help them at some OPs if they could use the firepower. I even think I could take down the 6 boxing setup, at least would have enjoyed trying. But I was never able to get anywhere with that, don't think the Kara like me much and I don't care for some of them either.
I've enjoyed Ryzom for years, I may end up leaving Ryzom soon myself and maybe that's why I am willing to make these posts. I've pretty much run out of content and would just have left the challenge of growing a guild and/or alliance and its pretty obvious that is not really my thing.
As for players leaving Ryzom, a lot are going to come and go for reasons similiar to what happened with SM and what is happening with all of this stuff around use of botting and sharing of characters, But the big problem is new content, Occupatoions were the big new content for a lot of us and to me it was pretty disappointing, maybe advanced occupations will deliver more but I haven't heard much about that. The Dev's seem to want to focus more on Events and Player involvement like the player run governments -- I wish them well with that but that isn't really what I personally care for much, I tried the events a bit but just not my thing and didn't seem to go well for a lot of others either.
The situation that caused SM and my other ingame friend and another ingame aquantance that was a member of SMs guild to leave Ryzom ( lets see that there is 3 subs ), oh and should add another ingame friend that came back a month or 2 later and only stayed a week or so -- was well within the normal gameplay of Ryzom. I guess an example of how normal gameplay can cause hard feelings and even drive some from a game they have loved for years.
Did I react nicely to my allies that not only wouldn't help me defend my ally's OP but encouraged its being attacked while my ally's guild was still active even if SM had apparrently left Ryzom? Don't think so, I was terribly upset. Even managed to ward off the first declare with some friends helping and Kamis had to declare a second time and bring in more Kara friends to take the OP. Pretty proud of that. Normal gameplay, no problems as far as that goes. But if one thinks that is going to get my friendship, think they are mistaken. I've even tried to see if the Kara would be open to letting me help them at some OPs if they could use the firepower. I even think I could take down the 6 boxing setup, at least would have enjoyed trying. But I was never able to get anywhere with that, don't think the Kara like me much and I don't care for some of them either.
As for players leaving Ryzom, a lot are going to come and go for reasons similiar to what happened with SM and what is happening with all of this stuff around use of botting and sharing of characters, But the big problem is new content, Occupatoions were the big new content for a lot of us and to me it was pretty disappointing, maybe advanced occupations will deliver more but I haven't heard much about that. The Dev's seem to want to focus more on Events and Player involvement like the player run governments -- I wish them well with that but that isn't really what I personally care for much, I tried the events a bit but just not my thing and didn't seem to go well for a lot of others either.
If anyone has had a problem with me, I've always welcomed them to bring it to me. If the third person you speak of is the one I know to have returned and left, he has done so on his own. He left IF of his own choice. We've welcomed him back with open arms every time we've seen him. Part of the reason he won't rejoin IF is that he is a Kara at heart and only joined HoT to follow SM originally. He also won't rejoin because he values your friendship, and though his friendships with us are important to him, he would rather not slight you just to have a guild tag over his head. He's also extremely busy irl.
IF didn't help defend HoT's OPs because we were completely brand new. We wouldn't have helped anyone going to war at that point in time, ally or no. We hadn't even decide whether we were going to be Kamis or neutrals yet. IF was only a few days old, and to ask us to help defend any guild, much less the one we'd just left, was a stretch.
There is no new content because the devs aren't actively dev'ing the game anymore. They are fixing bugs, fixing broken content and adding it in. This seems like new content, when in reality its old content that was broken so not added. At this point, the Devs have focused on Ryzom's Engine and fixing broken content so they can move on. Ryzom is a finished project, just being completed now. The Event Team is the only content really being introduced, and that is a set of volunteers who work to keep the server active and interesting.
Impossible to quote everyone, but my answer will be very short.
x nationalcity:
You have to consider the close relationship established over the years in a small community. Relationship problems happens in every MMO, sure they should not be debated in a public forum, but this just show how passionate are the ryzom players.
Personally I never had any specific problems with all the other ryzom players. Sure there are many (expecially from the opposing faction) that i almost had very little chat if not at all, but I think it's not a problem. At the same time I had good relations even with people of the opposing faction.
In a game started without factions at all, of course some relations remained even if the gameplay decisions divided the path.
My pvp actions never involved specific players or anything personal. I never hated anyone and my ignore list is empty.
My answers in this topic were deserved, because misinformation is the worst thing, worse than trolling (easy to discover).
About the story around SM, I can't and I don't want to judge something external my game experience. ANyway, better if you debate this privately.
Also I want to tell that my answers were directed solely to the quoted people.
For instance, I found most of you all speaking in a (almost) good manner explaining your opinions.
Sure I didn't had relations with Glaz, as he said (unfortunaltely for him, he is kami.... ), but I think factions actually are the less important thing. We all, in our way, love the game and I'm sure we all agree that ryzom need to restore a fair play and have the devs reacting faster to infringments. It will be more fun for everyone, kami, karavan and neutrals.
But don't misunderstand me: I don't want anyone banned. Also, the example about "owner of a single account" is a bit forced. You have to understand that some paragraph are "formal" rules a company must have, not because they really want it, but it's needed for any legal controversy. Of course no one would complain if someone use the husband's or son's account!!
Same for PL, it's legal as long as you play the game. Personally I spent much more time than 2 months to master PR, anyway I think different from majority of people: the slower you play, the more time you will have fun in a MMO (the longer it will last).
Last thing (i know, this "short" answer is not really "short"): the event team is doing an awesome job.
But I agree a MMO cannot rely only on events, even a MMO rp oriented.
Well didn't read all teh posts that's a ton of info ;p. I asked along time ago the GM's Policy on use of programs like Keyclone and such, Here is a copy of the sent email.
> Many know me in game as a multiboxer. Playing multiple toons. Many complain,
> gripe, and accuse me of botting, in universal, tells, ect. Which I find quite
> annoying, and bordering on harrassment.
>
> I'd like an official standing from the csrs on multiboxing.
>
> 1. nothing in the coc/eula about it.
>
> 2. nothing in the coc/eula about what is allowed/not allowed 3rd party wise. (as
> a matter of fact nothing at all about botting or automation, unless i'm blind, I
> just assumed it was still against the coc, you all might want to add it in to
> the eula, only thing that comes close is #14 but even then doesn't say anything
> about 3rd party software, that does NOT modify data from server to client, as
2.Mutiboxing must not be used to harass others players in any way.
3.Mutiboxing or the configuration of, must not hack the client.
4.Mutiboxing must not be used to exploit any part or functionality of the game that would lead to 1 or 2 or 3
Multiboxing could be interpreted as a "playing style" and as such is a personal choice of the player, and the combination of players make up the "spirit of the game"
Botting could be described as "Any program or device that will make or take a action automatically without human presence"
unattended being the focus and this could involve any of the macro methods or programs you described, any admission or evidence of this activity will not be tolerated and any sanctions would cover all accounts associated with the player.
If another player witnesses or suspects another player of "botting" then they must report it in the normal way, there must be sufficient evidence supplied with the report for any sanctions to occur. ie screen shots of a chat screen with an admission that they use such and such a program or method while they go and have a shower or to the shops or similar such evidence etc is sufficient.
A CSR would need to make a determination on the player's actions and responses during any "suspect" game play activity and decide if it were are unusual in any way and take any appropriate action.
I hope this answers your query
Regards,
Mokoi
SGM Arispotle
Ryzom Support Team"
So if programs such as Keyclone weren't allowed, (which i would like to point out, in no way modify data from client to server, which is a violation of the TOS).
We shouldn't have been told they were allowed.
Now as to why they suddenly ban the use of Keyclone and like programs that still require manual play, I haven't the foggiest. Literally every MMORPG i've ever multiboxed, allowed and continues to allow programs such as keyclone. If you'd prefer to lose a bunch of income to pretty much banning your multiboxers I just lolz at you ;p.
As a player I did alot of multiboxing for personal reasons.
1. It's hard to find people, and/or enough people to experience the end game content, so instead of waiting around all day alone, i worked and made it possible myself.
2. Solo'ing in Ryzom is horridly designed and multiboxing fixes this
3. I like the Challenge of running multiple toons, it's fun and it's fun to show it off
For years i used my multiboxing to help others. Solo (multiboxer) treking many people, helping them down bosses to not take any loot. Mass farming materials to donate to a friends craft leveling.
I guess most of people's complaints came from pvp related issues with multi-boxing. Well as with any other games, multiboxed characters are easily handled if you know how to handle them. The character configurations have major flaws and rely heavily on one another to stay afloat so to say. If you take out the weaker parts of the multiboxers chain, they crumble.
I always found it entertaining that people focused on my strongest toons first, attempting to take down cosmose and Faile, as apposed to the much weaker other three.
There is another major thing people forget about multiboxers.
Sure the person may have five toons. But they put in 5 times the work. Leveling 5 toons, gearing five toons, takes quite a bit.
I keep seeing the misinterpretation that the use of third party software is against the TOS. No that is a complete misintrepretation. Or at least i hope it is. You do realise everything that isn't Ryzom is third party right? Windows, linux, MacOS all third party, Ventrillo, teamspeak, gamebooster, directx, Overclocking programs, all third party non ryzom developed programs that could improve your gameplay and give you and edge. If you could kindly explain how sending the 3 key to 5 different clients is botting. As you are literally pressing the button. No different then setting 5 keyboards right beside one another and pressing all the buttons at once. I just don't understand how you can equate this to botting, which is automation, when no automation is involved, everything requires in game macros and your pressing a button, over and over and over.
Now what is illegal, against the Terms of service on all MMORPG's, is botting programs. Botting requires the toon and/or toons to be unattended. any program that allows you to go afk, take a shower, make some lunch and all the while have your toons grinding out levels/profs, is botting. Spamming buttons for hours, is not botting.
Programs such as keyclone, octopus and various other multiboxing software that send commands to all clients are in no way botting. You have to push the button. If you don't push the button the toon doesn't do anything. It doesn't matter if that button is set up to make one toon jump and another toon dance. You still have to press the button. Aka no automation-no botting. You are in also no way modifying the clients data, nor are you modifying data sent from client to server.
I haven't been playing much recently due to a massive hardware failure causing a lack of monetary funds to pay for all my toons. However i got back to a good spot financially to discover that Ryzom has pretty much banned me from game play due to my style of multiboxing play.
To be honest I think i should be afforded some sort of refund. To put so much time and money into many toons. To have them just block off my whole style of play some months later, when i was specifically told this style of play was accepted with Ryzom. They are losing a good dose of revenue and potential revenue by banning this style of gameplay as well.
As for people playing other peoples accounts and sharing info, well this is a common practice among friends, as long as they realize they are responsible for what happens on that account I don't see a problem. I've never shared my Ryzom accounts, however in other games, such as Aion, and WoW, I have shared my account info, so close friends and very trusted guildies could use my toons to craft gear or down a particularly tough mob when i wasn't around. As for family using the same account, well duh they're family, who gives a crap if a wife plays on a husbands account, or a kid plays there dads toon for a bit.
You've lost me as a player. Don't get me wrong. I love the game and most of the people. But Ryzom has made it so I wouldn't be able to effectively play 3 of my toons that i worked so hard to level up. Which to me is the same as deleteing my toons.
Never used any programs to control my other toons other than loading up two accounts up on one computer - the instructions how to do that are in the technical forum on the main website, and squishing the displays onto my tiny monitor (which was the reason I stopped).
I stopped my last subscription due to this thread and others like it. I got tired of the politics.
How have I treated Aeralin after SM left -- I guess ignoring someone could be considered unfriendly but I basically do what I believe is reccommended if you don't get along with someone ingame -- play elsewhere as much as you can. As far as Aeralin's breaking the Rules of Behaviour -- its her posts -- its a public admittance as far as I can see -- apparrently she just doesn't get it -- these are after all MMORPGs --- now I'm not much of a roleplayer myself, more of a goal achiever than roleplayer, but I do enjoy the atmosphere at least -- but to me its obvious that 2 people can not roleplay the same character.
The situation that caused SM and my other ingame friend and another ingame aquantance that was a member of SMs guild to leave Ryzom ( lets see that there is 3 subs ), oh and should add another ingame friend that came back a month or 2 later and only stayed a week or so -- was well within the normal gameplay of Ryzom. I guess an example of how normal gameplay can cause hard feelings and even drive some from a game they have loved for years.
Did I react nicely to my allies that not only wouldn't help me defend my ally's OP but encouraged its being attacked while my ally's guild was still active even if SM had apparrently left Ryzom? Don't think so, I was terribly upset. Even managed to ward off the first declare with some friends helping and Kamis had to declare a second time and bring in more Kara friends to take the OP. Pretty proud of that. Normal gameplay, no problems as far as that goes. But if one thinks that is going to get my friendship, think they are mistaken. I've even tried to see if the Kara would be open to letting me help them at some OPs if they could use the firepower. I even think I could take down the 6 boxing setup, at least would have enjoyed trying. But I was never able to get anywhere with that, don't think the Kara like me much and I don't care for some of them either.
I've enjoyed Ryzom for years, I may end up leaving Ryzom soon myself and maybe that's why I am willing to make these posts. I've pretty much run out of content and would just have left the challenge of growing a guild and/or alliance and its pretty obvious that is not really my thing.
As for players leaving Ryzom, a lot are going to come and go for reasons similiar to what happened with SM and what is happening with all of this stuff around use of botting and sharing of characters, But the big problem is new content, Occupatoions were the big new content for a lot of us and to me it was pretty disappointing, maybe advanced occupations will deliver more but I haven't heard much about that. The Dev's seem to want to focus more on Events and Player involvement like the player run governments -- I wish them well with that but that isn't really what I personally care for much, I tried the events a bit but just not my thing and didn't seem to go well for a lot of others either.
lol your the biggest botter and user of programs on the server, you bot dug for hours on end to level you crafting skills. your posts dont mean anything like jwenting you both set double standards, if fine for you both to run muntiple characters using third party programs but it isnt ok for others who can do it better then you.
Well didn't read all teh posts that's a ton of info ;p. I asked along time ago the GM's Policy on use of programs like Keyclone and such, Here is a copy of the sent email.
...... cut ......
My answer is very simple.
My opinion is that such conversation you got with Mokoi should have been public.
I mean: Mokoi, given the sensitive question from you, should have opened a topic on the official forum to speak about the argument and clarify to everyone the rules and meaning of "multiboxing" and "botting".
For me, using keyclone is an "automation". Even if you need to press the buttons, it's still an automation. That is my opinion. And, as me, many other people think the same.
So, given the different opinions about what is botting and what is not, the game owners, once they knew about your question, should have understood how sensitive is the argument.
And they should have written clear statements about it.
As i wrote in my previous posts, I don't want anyone banned. I just want, and sure most of other angry people, clear rules.
We already asked that in the past, if you go read the Boroshi's post about several questions, clearing the rules of engagement in Outpost battles and other questions.
Multiboxing, without any automation is, in my opinion, correct and perfectly legal, because you need to press buttons for each toon, as they were on different computers (and without specific hardware).
You have, obvioulsy, a different playstyle, and you consider your multiboxing with keyclone and macros an "art" of gaming.
I don't think so, but I can accept it as long as the game rules clearly allow it, with an official statement, so any player, before starting playing the game knows what it is and what it offers, and can decide if they want to subscribe or not. And can also decide to use your same playstyle or not.
Given the conversation between you and Mokoi, it's clear that the major fault was not from you but from Mokoi, leaving this argument private, not recognizing the importance of such questions.
That's it. Personally I hope you will be unbanned and the game owners make a clear statement on the public forum about this so sensitive argument. And, of course, that you adapt to whatever rule will be accepted (if you want ofc)
Once we have a clear statement, in one way or the other, I think many people will return.
EDIT:
last thing, I really don't understand all the WoW references.... I never played WoW and I never will. I never was interested in it. Why other MMO should consider the Rules of another competitor? I don't think other MMO do the same.
WoW is not the "bible" of MMO's... I started playing textual MMORPG (and graphical some year later) long before WoW. I don't care if WoW got 1 billion players, I care of the games I like to play and they must have their own rules. I suppose the owners of MMO should have the same care about their games.
Oh my accounts are not banned, but they essentially banned my style of gameplay. Meaning I have no reason to resub now lol.
Automation, perhaps there's a language barrier, but to 90% of the mainstream MMORPG's search there forums.
Automation is a program or software playing the game for you while you are not present at the pc. Which is the defintion of botting.
At least to a majority of the world, personal definitions and intrepretations aside.
It looks to me like Swindt just made a decision that these programs were not allowed, rather then consulting the higher ups on there opinion. Though Ryzom doesn't clearly state who holds what level of power in the game, there is no posted heirarchy that I've found. However i haven't indeptly searched for one.
At this points it seems there is no clarity from the game owners on there perspective on multiboxing and multiboxing software, just from one gm saying don't do it, and one sgm saying it's ok.
But as i understand it. GM's are not employee's persay but volunteers? So really a few volunteers are now allowed to make vital decisions that drastically impact the game?
If you use aripostle as an example, a few months ago alts, ran with multiboxing programs, made up nearly a 1/4th of the active population. By active I mean logging on more then once a week, or sitting afk all day at stables.
The rules are very unclear in terms to multiboxing. With no clear and concise definition, one is forced to take the interpretation of other mmorpg's to use as a basis for comparison. Sense all those types of technology are allowed on the bigger named games, WoW, Eve, EQ, Ect, one comes to the conclusion that they are allowed in Ryzom. And with conflicting answers from GM's, who's to say what is really allowed and not allowed?
Automation, perhaps there's a language barrier, but to 90% of the mainstream MMORPG's search there forums.
At least to a majority of the world, personal definitions and intrepretations aside.
Glad to read you were not banned. I hope you can find your way to enjoy Ryzom even with different rules.
But I want to clarify my opinion:
Speaking as a game owner, you cannot rely on someone else rules. You cannot ask to your customers to be well informed about other games rules.
Personally, till now, I never knew WoW allowed Keyclone, for example. Just because I don't care to read anything about a game I don't play. In the MMOs I played no 3rd party software was allowed, keyclone included. But this is not the main part of the discussion.
I can accept keyclone if this is allowed by the rules. The real point is "what are the rules", if they are considered ambigous or clarifications are taken privately? The game's owner MUST write clear rules, regardless of any other game around, because I, a customer, cannot have the knowledge of everything on the market. Even if I know WoW by name.... do you think I cared to read it's CoC or EULA or any other thing related to the game rules or their forums? Of course I never did.
I'm surprised to read that to play a game i need to know the MMO history and all the other games around.
Of course, by the game's owner perspective, this cannot be accepted. If they want to rely to common terms or common behaviour, they must specify them, and the context used, in their own rules. Or do you think it's possible in a service agreement to write something like "for this question, go read WoW's CoC"???? Of course it would be ridicule.
I have a game, these are the rules, enjoy playing it. That's it.
For instance, I didn't unsubbed in december because of this debate. I unsubbed for personal rl issues, but when I decided to come back at beginning of february, I jumped into these topics, here and other forums. So, I decided to wait, because I want to play Ryzom, but I want clear rules for everyone.
So, the point is the Ryzom's owner (not gm's or volunteers, that are not guilty, in absence of directions from the owner) must tell the whole community, publicly, what is allowed and what's not. They must update the CoC and write into the official "externally accessible" forum. Writing anything into the ingame forum has no sense at all.
Comments
I think it just comes down to the fact that if it were handled better, TI wouldn't be leaving the server. Sadly, the Karavans have been leaving for a bit now, probably due to the botting as your calling it. There was a big stink about 2 months or so ago when a guild called TPM came back and started demanding things from them. It was pretty bad, and alot of people got fed up and left for greener pastures.
I completely agree with you about that it makes an unfair playing field, and if it is against the rules, TOS, EULA, or rules of conduct, then it is wrong and shouldn't be done. I myself am not one who really gets involved in it, nor does my wife. I know of the software, and understand the concept behind it, but to me it is a very fuzzy line, and one I'm not comfortable treading.
Sadly, the way the CSR's dealt with it, the fact that there still hasn't been an offical statement about it, the fact that it is buried in a thread that wasn't even about the subject at hand, is what those who were using sync'ing software are upset about. There is a right and wrong way to go about it, and sadly they chose the wrong way in regards to this.
As far as those who asked first and were told it was ok, that were using key sync'ing to play, I do truly feel they cared about Ryzom. Maybe not so much anymore due to all this, but I know they cared. For many it was their home, and logged in everyday to hang out, play, boss hunt, etc. Aside from the last 2 days, the servers have been seriously quiet. The only reason it hasn't been is because TI has decided to take all the OP's before they leave. Sadly, no one has showed up to the 4 wars, nor does it seem that they even care anymore. It is ashame really.
I wasn't saying you were trashing the game. Sadly Aeralin and Iala don't get along and he is one of the reasons the CSR's changed their opinion on this subject. Mokoi knew what the software was, what it was used for when he ok'ed it a year ago, and now due to a few complaining, he went back on that decision. That is their decision, and I personally support whatever the CSR's think it is best for the game. But please make it offical, and let those who are knowingly doing so to please be advised that the rules changed, instead of harassing them, following them around, even though they can't prove one way or another they are using the software.
It is what it is really. I just hate seeing all this negative stuff around a game like this. It doesn't promote a good community if we are always fighting. If 75 accounts are going offline mid feburary, then I'd think it best to not kill it for potential new players who may enjoy ryzom. Ryzom will always hold a special place in my heart, but sadly it isn't home for me anymore.
Sweetie this is Rere ... Aeralin is aeralin but Rustayn is her husband. Not the same :P
*goes back to her popcorn and blanket*
Also ... If you knew Aeralin you would know she wouldn't be hiding behind another character. She tells it like it is
I have read all the links. In fact I clearly said that multi boxing is legal.
How it is considered botting or not, depends by the specific game and by the definition of botting, that universally means "using third party software to gain an advantage vs other players that's not part of the official game client".
If a CSR in a private conversation allowed any sort of botting (with or without multiboxing), the player should have asked for an official statement and eventually advise the dev team and/or seniors about the subject.
I remember discussions in the past, but I have NEVER read anything allowing botting. I remember a clear statement about multiboxing, legal as long as you use each character manually (no third party software) and nothing more.
If people wanted to misinterpret that for their benefits, it's their fault, and it's the fault of the devs too, doing nothing to stop the botting.
Do you really think you can manage a game community as it is a small group of friends? Even in a small group of friends can happen wrong things....
Just because we love the game we don't want to support a wrong behaviour that, of course, would kill any game, not just ryzom.
Finally, me and Iala, are just saying the truth: my definition in previous post is exactly the rules applied in ryzom, not from release (because at beginning multiboxing was not allowed), but when they publicly allowed the use of the command line switch /multi (to start more clients in a single pc). BUT BOTTING WAS NEVER ALLOWED.
Search the official forums, go read the TOS and stop arguing on something you don't know.
Nickname registered on www.mynickname.org
Don't tell me what I do or don't know. I know more about this subject than you obviously. Not only am I familiar with Ryzoms case but also with the gaming community as a whole. So maybe you should take your own advice and stop arguing what you don't know. You obiously don't know the difference between botting and multi-boxing. they are different things. using 3rd party software to send a keyboard signal to multiple clients IS NOT botting period. Neither is a hardware solution that does the same which you have never addressed. I have read the official forums and the TOS for Ryzom. Neither of them refer to the sending of keyboard signals to multiple clients as botting. So your continued use of the word is just your opinion. Also the TOS is very vague on the subject and an argument can be made that multi-boxing is perfectly legal anyway. But Ryzom has the right to interperet the rule as they see fit, but just because Ryzom has made the decision to outlaw multi-boxing it does not change the universal definitions of what botting and mult-boxing are. You are clearly passionate about your game and that is admirable, but don't let your fanboy mentality cloud you critical thinking skills.
Also stop and think a minute about what you are doing when you call multi-boxing botting. It is insulting to all of us multi-boxers out there who enjoy the challenge of running multiple characters at once in whatever our chosen game is. We are not cheaters. We are not botters.
You absolutely don't know the TOS:
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( from http://www.ryzom.com/en/mmorpg-rpg-mmo-policies.html )
14. RULES OF BEHAVIOR OF RYZOM
You acknowledge that the proper functioning and success of an Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game such as Ryzom and/or Ryzom Ring depends on a delicate balance which Winch Gate Property Limited has to maintain. The User is therefore strictly forbidden: (a) to use any program or method to change the content or functionalities of the MMORPG; (b) to cause the server to be overloaded; (c) to use any procedure to make it easier to obtain any instruction faster than through the ordinary course of play ; (d) to modify the user interface or any other component in order to obtain objects, experience points, currency, characters' attributes, ranks, etc., other than as the result of proper normal use of the MMORPG; (e) to buy, sell or transfer MMORPG characters or their attributes. Furthermore, the User must at all times observe the Code of Conduct, the Courtesy Policies and the Ryzom Naming Charter displayed on the MMORPG's website at www.ryzom.com, whose contents are hereby declared an integral part of this Contract. We reserve the right to take any emergency measures on your account (including suspending or canceling it) which we think fit, if we believe that your use is contravening the above prohibitions.
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More, from the official forum, posted by Boroshi in 2009 ( http://forums.ryzom.com/showthread.php?t=34513 )
Exploiting:
Using a third-party program or taking advantage of a bug in the game in order to gain an advantage over other players, or profiting from anything that is not provided by the game or the game mechanics either for personal or other use, is considered a exploit. Upon finding an exploit, you can contact us via the means described above. Note that this rule is a direct consequence of the CoC and so any breaches will be dealt with severely.
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These are general statements that simply and clear tells everyone you are wrong stating that sending keyboard to all clients with a third party software (or hardware, as it's a "method") is not botting. And, even if it is not botting, it is exploiting as cleared by Boroshi in 2009. AND IT'S NOT ALLOWED AND NEVER WAS.
That post was made by Boroshi after the comunity asked for clear rules about many subjects, included pvp and OP battles.
Period.
I play Ryzom since december 2004, and i have 310 days effective time spent in Atys. I know the game very well and I know all the debates inside the community.
I already explained what is botting and multi-boxing, i suspect you have not read carefully and extensively my previous posts. If you don't understand what I have written, it's not my fault.
I never wrote that multi-boxing is botting!! Multi boxing is allowed as I clearly stated in my previous posts.
But a legal multi-boxing cannot use third party software or "method" to automate the operations.
If you use your fingers to play in a multi boxing environment it's perfectly legal.
It's so hard to understand this??
Your definition of multi boxing (with allowed third party software to send a single keystroke to all the clients) is simply WRONG.... that became botting. Period.
Nickname registered on www.mynickname.org
Well done Gilga.
I am going to point out section "e" of the Rules of Behavior you have copied here.
This also was being blatantly abused. One of the individuals 6 boxing at OPs was using characters/accounts that were not his orginally. He did not level all of the characters. He feels that as long as he is currently paying the subscription, all should be fine.
I can understand that somewhat as more subscriptions means more money for the Devs.
But it is an unfair advantage, if you want multiple accounts -- it is clear from the Rules of Behavior that you have to create all the accounts and play all the characters yourself.
Look at Aeralin's posts -- she is clearly admitting to a violation of this policy -- Rustayn is not her character or her account -- apparrently it's her husbands. Blatant? -- no. And if done in moderation and just used for GH storage and transfer of items, I doubt I or anyone else cares much. Let her use her husbands account as a 2nd account while he takes a break from Ryzom, why force her to create a whole new account just to accomplish some minor functionability, But look at what it leads to -- someone 6 boxing using software that sends one keystroke/mousestroke to multiply clients using characters/accounts lent to him by other players. Not only affecting PvP but allowing him to boss hunt in Wastelands with a 6 boxing group that can kill KPs without using Auras-- big advantage gained without all the effort spent to actually level those characters -- not to mention the botting.
Botting to me always meant automatting gameplay -- so I have always gone by the rule that I need to use seperate keyboard and mouse strokes for each action/macro by each character that I play -- so I personally use a seperate computer for each character/account. Running 2 clients on a single computer always seemed to me to present a problem of the OS only allowing 1 keyboard on the computer and even though 2 mice can be used -- they would wander between windows easily. Now a third party software that allowed multiply keyboards and mice to be used on a single computer and say assigned a seperate mouse and keyboard to each client/window would be great -- and not botting ( at least to me ).
If there is a community of Multiboxers that don't consider sending single keyboard/mouse strokes to multiply characters to be botting, I feel for them somewhat ( as it could be seen as art and requires some effort to setup ) but as far as I'm concerned it is botting and I think if the whole MMORPG community considered and adressed the issue -- it would too.
Glaz, Isahbel, Dureena, Galenn
Wam, did you just accuse me of breaking ToS by using another account from my own household? With the same billing address, same credit card info? Same Last Name? I'm sure the ToS wasn't meant to be applied in this situation. If you feel it's a ToS violation, please go ahead and ticket me and we'll see how that ends up.
In regards to your use of mulitple computers, you may very well be running each client on a separate tower, but I've seen how completely in sync your toons are. I do not run software for my toons and they are nearly never in sync. May I remind you that you powerlevelled my PR dig and I watched all 4 of your toons operate for hours? I stopped digging with you because I refused to abuse the system anymore. I wouldn't allow 1 person, under the guise of 4 toons, to do all the work for me, unlike some others in my guild at the time. I knew I wouldn't have earned that master, and if I didn't earn it, what's the point in the title?
Whether I agree with the use of software or not is still moot, although I have never used it myself, which should speak volumes. Boroshi's post clearly states that multi-boxing software is illegal, and yet the CSR's allowed it to happen.
I agree that people who do wrong should be punished. When you look at the sitaution from the outside, whether or not those who use third-party programs or not thought is was wrong, they did check in with those responsible for interpreting the ToS to be sure of whether it was legal or not. Being told it was fine, they used it. The CSR's did wrong on this way by leading these users to believe it was okay, when in reality it wasn't. It's the CSR's job to keep track of the legal and not and to keep the players in step with this. They did not do this!
The CSR's have not issued a proper announcement reinforcing their change of mind. Instead, the post is buried in a thread with an unrelated subject heading. In addition, again, they follow players around when they admit they cannot prove the use of software. In the Real World, if I were followed around by someone, it's called harassment/stalking, but in a digital world it's ok? That makes absolutely no sense. I can see following someone if they are harassing someone else, or abusing a proveable exploit, but this cannot be proven.
Gil, you and Iala may be trashing the 'botters', but the negative publicity this thread is creating isn't helping Ryzom at all. As a new player reading this thread, I'd steer clear, no matter how much fun the game sounded.
I really hope that Ryzom survives this mess. I hope it stays around for years to come, and gets the following it deserves. I know, however, that there are people leaving game all the time, each for personal reasons. This mess even has me questioning whether I want to stay and play, when Ryzom is my home. I don't know if I want to keep playing a game that is ruled by CSR's who sway to public opinion. Who/what could be next?
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Its sad too see a post like this in the Ryzom forum.
Since joining this game I've always praised it, spread the word on how good it was and its potential.
Now with so many old players leaving... its as if a good old standby sandbox was taken away.
Its a shame really...
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Ignore his sillyness. He's still butt hurt we forced his boyfriend (SM) to quit and the kami's (and kara's) supported us in doing it and turned on her ... er him.
And if this post is any indication of the player base no wonder people are leaving. Butt-hurt I mean come on its 2011.....
lol
If you knew the situation, and his behavior, butt hurt about covers it to a T. I'm all for being very articulate, but yea. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...
The player base of Ryzom is a very intelligent group of people, who make clearly logical and well thought out arguments. We are also constantly together, as we're a small community, which means we annoy the heck out of each other every once in a while. I realize that my posts are most likely not helping the situation, but I am trying to make a point, just as everyone else is.
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Aeralin, you are wrong about my gameplay -- I have been Multiboxing for 10 years iirc.
I not only put a lot of effort into the gameplay but also everything I need to accomplish it.
I have spent weeks making my furniture to 4 box Ryzom.
My characters are in sync because I place the mouse cursors over the macros that i expect to be using next -- if I'm caught off guard, I'm gonna have problems -- which is why I'm not very good at OP battles 4 boxing -- gameplay at OPs is just too fast and unpredictable for my 4 boxing to be very effrective --- some of best effects for factions I have supported have come when the other faction focus's on me, I can distinctly remembering twice my 4 going done and my rezzing thinking we had lost the battle only to find out the others had won the battle, hehe.
As regards Power Leveling -- It is legal and you do it too. I have seen many guilds attempt pretty much the same thing the 2 of us did. You may not have wanted to do PLing with me helping you but it was a challenge for me to do it. PLing another player to Master PR dig and ability to do all craft patterns in game was a big accomplishment for me that took a lot of effort on my part and the other players part. It pushed my boxing ability to the max, by far the most difficult grinding activity I have boxed. By the way it was also a very big challenge for the other player too, to me it looked like it was about as hard for her playing one character as it was for me to do my 4 boxing part PLing her. I believe it was actually a lot harder and more fun than the normal way players level their dig skills. It was also a lot faster -- about 2-3 months, 4-6 hours a day iirc. And it was a Social Activity for both of us. We did not bot -- either of us!!!!
It was also a disappointment to me that you were not up for it as I had things I wanted to try out Pling you and her at the same time, but after PLing her, I doubt any of them would have worked even if you had been willing to put forth the effort.
As for SMs leaving Ryzom, SM was a very good ingame friend of mine and yes I do blame you for creating the situation that caused her and my other very good ingame friend to leave Ryzom. And maybe I wouldn't have joined those complaining of blatant and major violations of botting and sharing of characters if I was still allied with you and your allies.
As for a lot of players disliking me. I have never botted, never even looked for botting hardware or software. Many players seeing me 4 box and 4 box well from reactions I get -- presume and believe that I bot -- and no matter how much I try and tell them I don't, they just do not believe me. Even you and the great 6 boxer who have spent weeks doing ingame activities with me, think I bot.
There are several other reasons many of the other players dislike me and I dislike them, There are many legitimate game activities that cause friction among players and sometimes lead to disliking of others -- for instance I don't think Iala or Gilga much care for me or I them. I don't expect to like everyone or everyone to like me. Oh btw, not everyone dislikes me, some even like me.
Guess I need to make a home movie of myself 4 boxing and killing Raj, Kinkoo, trekking thru PR, digging Kitin Larvae, etc... and then you'ld still think I doctored the video, right?
As for your violation of the Rules of Behavior, you can read obviously. Read it -- no sharing of characters! When you create an account -- its your account and no one elses ever, simple ( my opinion of course ).
That goes for Spouses, Children, Parents, other relatives, Friends, Guildies -- just as much as it does for 2 players living on opposite sides of the world who only interact in Ryzom. Nowl, I could care less of minor violations but I have already posted what it has led to ingame and I did complain to the GMs about it.
There's a free 21 day trial for anyone that wants to try out Ryzom for free, of course your free to have anyone watch you play Ryzom.
As for myself, I am the only person who has ever played any of the characters on my 4 accounts.
Glaz, Isahbel, Dureena, Galenn
The thing with SM is you don't know what the hell you're talking about. SM created that bs and ONLY SM. So the way you treated Aeralin was uncalled for. Simple as that.
As I said, you've an issue with my using my husband's account, ticket me. Simple really.
You prove my point, that botting and running several toons on several different computers looks identical. And yet, players who run multiple toons are followed by CSRs. I don't doubt that multi-boxing can be done by a single person's hand, on multiple systems at that. I've seen builds that allow just that and look the same as any given software. Once again, I do not use this software. I see why others are upset by it. I also see the other side of the coin. I see players who went to those responsible for right from wrong, and those responsible did nothing. And now, they revise their decision, which they have the right to do. I'm not asking that they even reverse their decision, although it would make lots of people I know happy. I'm asking that they be professional. Convey the decision change as Boroshi posted in the past. Make the ToS less vague. Leave no room for interpretation. I'm not asking for Rocket Science, just simple change.
I also never said I haven't powerlevelled, nor would I. I have 1 alt, 1 simple alt. At times, I feel guilty for even using him, but over time, I've seen the difference that alt makes for my main, my guild, the amount I can give back to Atys. If the CSR's see fit to ban me for this, so be it. At least I'd have a clear cut answer.
Regarding SM, you didn't live inside of HoT. You got to see the sweet SM who bent over backwards for your help. You didn't see the insults she hurled at guildies, the way she treated me and others for having a different play style than she had. I asked for change within guild. I asked for a chance to make change. I gave months and months for that to happen. I asked SM to stay in game, to prove me wrong. I left HoT because I didn't want it to implode. I didn't want to create innerguild drama that would cause it to ultimately fall apart. Instead, I waited patiently for change, and when it didn't come, after giving notice that I was very unhappy, I left HoT. I even respected you enough to tell you personally of my decision, which took a lot tbh. Those who followed me did so of their own volition. It's apparent they were staying because I was in HoT, and when I left, so did they. I left HoT because logging in every day felt like going to work, and being the buffer between an unhappy guild and an egocentric GL wasn't my position of choice.
The other player who left game, Elo, I had personal reasons for not admitting to IF. She and I never got along. She talked about me behind my back to other guildies. Told others I was just a cat dispenser, that I was an ineffective leader, that the title of HO meant nothing. She fed into the very innerguild drama that I wanted to avoid, and lead to my leaving HoT. In addition, the other founders of IF had personal issues with her as well. Calling people noobs because they don't have as many titles as you do doesn't tend to go over well. Lording titles, when she was powerlevelled from start to finish, was insulting to those of us who'd worked like hell for our titles. If you feel the need to blame me that your friend didn't play well with others, then so be it.
I don't expect anyone in game or out to like me. My merits or lack thereof speaks for itself. I've worked hard to make IF successful, and will continue to do so. I love my guildies, and my friends. They are all family to me. Anyone who takes the time to get to know me can join that family as well. I don't ask for anything for IF, and expect nothing as well. We have fun in our little corner of Atys, and, as my little guild grows, even attracting members of other guilds because they see us having so much fun, I look forward to sharing everything I have and who I am on Atys and in RL with those who care to ask. Judge me as you will, anyone is welcome.
I play Ryzom because I love our community. I feel at home on Atys when I have nowhere else. I play Ryzom because it's fun, and, yes, fun is relative. I play Ryzom because I can go on a midnight mektoub run through PR with my guildies and laugh my ass off when we all die. I play Ryzom because I can dig a zone til the KT expires, have a friend show up to watch me die, laugh at me, and then rez my bum. I play Ryzom because I love it, just as the rest of you do.
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How have I treated Aeralin after SM left -- I guess ignoring someone could be considered unfriendly but I basically do what I believe is reccommended if you don't get along with someone ingame -- play elsewhere as much as you can. As far as Aeralin's breaking the Rules of Behaviour -- its her posts -- its a public admittance as far as I can see -- apparrently she just doesn't get it -- these are after all MMORPGs --- now I'm not much of a roleplayer myself, more of a goal achiever than roleplayer, but I do enjoy the atmosphere at least -- but to me its obvious that 2 people can not roleplay the same character.
The situation that caused SM and my other ingame friend and another ingame aquantance that was a member of SMs guild to leave Ryzom ( lets see that there is 3 subs ), oh and should add another ingame friend that came back a month or 2 later and only stayed a week or so -- was well within the normal gameplay of Ryzom. I guess an example of how normal gameplay can cause hard feelings and even drive some from a game they have loved for years.
Did I react nicely to my allies that not only wouldn't help me defend my ally's OP but encouraged its being attacked while my ally's guild was still active even if SM had apparrently left Ryzom? Don't think so, I was terribly upset. Even managed to ward off the first declare with some friends helping and Kamis had to declare a second time and bring in more Kara friends to take the OP. Pretty proud of that. Normal gameplay, no problems as far as that goes. But if one thinks that is going to get my friendship, think they are mistaken. I've even tried to see if the Kara would be open to letting me help them at some OPs if they could use the firepower. I even think I could take down the 6 boxing setup, at least would have enjoyed trying. But I was never able to get anywhere with that, don't think the Kara like me much and I don't care for some of them either.
I've enjoyed Ryzom for years, I may end up leaving Ryzom soon myself and maybe that's why I am willing to make these posts. I've pretty much run out of content and would just have left the challenge of growing a guild and/or alliance and its pretty obvious that is not really my thing.
As for players leaving Ryzom, a lot are going to come and go for reasons similiar to what happened with SM and what is happening with all of this stuff around use of botting and sharing of characters, But the big problem is new content, Occupatoions were the big new content for a lot of us and to me it was pretty disappointing, maybe advanced occupations will deliver more but I haven't heard much about that. The Dev's seem to want to focus more on Events and Player involvement like the player run governments -- I wish them well with that but that isn't really what I personally care for much, I tried the events a bit but just not my thing and didn't seem to go well for a lot of others either.
If anyone has had a problem with me, I've always welcomed them to bring it to me. If the third person you speak of is the one I know to have returned and left, he has done so on his own. He left IF of his own choice. We've welcomed him back with open arms every time we've seen him. Part of the reason he won't rejoin IF is that he is a Kara at heart and only joined HoT to follow SM originally. He also won't rejoin because he values your friendship, and though his friendships with us are important to him, he would rather not slight you just to have a guild tag over his head. He's also extremely busy irl.
IF didn't help defend HoT's OPs because we were completely brand new. We wouldn't have helped anyone going to war at that point in time, ally or no. We hadn't even decide whether we were going to be Kamis or neutrals yet. IF was only a few days old, and to ask us to help defend any guild, much less the one we'd just left, was a stretch.
There is no new content because the devs aren't actively dev'ing the game anymore. They are fixing bugs, fixing broken content and adding it in. This seems like new content, when in reality its old content that was broken so not added. At this point, the Devs have focused on Ryzom's Engine and fixing broken content so they can move on. Ryzom is a finished project, just being completed now. The Event Team is the only content really being introduced, and that is a set of volunteers who work to keep the server active and interesting.
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Impossible to quote everyone, but my answer will be very short.
x nationalcity:
You have to consider the close relationship established over the years in a small community. Relationship problems happens in every MMO, sure they should not be debated in a public forum, but this just show how passionate are the ryzom players.
Personally I never had any specific problems with all the other ryzom players. Sure there are many (expecially from the opposing faction) that i almost had very little chat if not at all, but I think it's not a problem. At the same time I had good relations even with people of the opposing faction.
In a game started without factions at all, of course some relations remained even if the gameplay decisions divided the path.
My pvp actions never involved specific players or anything personal. I never hated anyone and my ignore list is empty.
My answers in this topic were deserved, because misinformation is the worst thing, worse than trolling (easy to discover).
About the story around SM, I can't and I don't want to judge something external my game experience. ANyway, better if you debate this privately.
Also I want to tell that my answers were directed solely to the quoted people.
For instance, I found most of you all speaking in a (almost) good manner explaining your opinions.
Sure I didn't had relations with Glaz, as he said (unfortunaltely for him, he is kami....
), but I think factions actually are the less important thing. We all, in our way, love the game and I'm sure we all agree that ryzom need to restore a fair play and have the devs reacting faster to infringments. It will be more fun for everyone, kami, karavan and neutrals.
But don't misunderstand me: I don't want anyone banned. Also, the example about "owner of a single account" is a bit forced. You have to understand that some paragraph are "formal" rules a company must have, not because they really want it, but it's needed for any legal controversy. Of course no one would complain if someone use the husband's or son's account!!
Same for PL, it's legal as long as you play the game. Personally I spent much more time than 2 months
to master PR, anyway I think different from majority of people: the slower you play, the more time you will have fun in a MMO (the longer it will last).
Last thing (i know, this "short" answer is not really "short"): the event team is doing an awesome job.
But I agree a MMO cannot rely only on events, even a MMO rp oriented.
Nickname registered on www.mynickname.org
Well didn't read all teh posts that's a ton of info ;p. I asked along time ago the GM's Policy on use of programs like Keyclone and such, Here is a copy of the sent email.
> Many know me in game as a multiboxer. Playing multiple toons. Many complain,
> gripe, and accuse me of botting, in universal, tells, ect. Which I find quite
> annoying, and bordering on harrassment.
>
> I'd like an official standing from the csrs on multiboxing.
>
> 1. nothing in the coc/eula about it.
>
> 2. nothing in the coc/eula about what is allowed/not allowed 3rd party wise. (as
> a matter of fact nothing at all about botting or automation, unless i'm blind, I
> just assumed it was still against the coc, you all might want to add it in to
> the eula, only thing that comes close is #14 but even then doesn't say anything
> about 3rd party software, that does NOT modify data from server to client, as
> well as doesn't modify the client in anyway)
> http://www.ryzom.com/en/mmorpg-rpg-mmo-policies.html
>
> I ninja'd the following from another games forums but works for my purpose.
>
> I will define multiboxing as such:
> Multiboxing is the art of playing multiple characters on multiple accounts
> simultaneously. Multiboxing is typically played via a single user interface
> (i.e. one keyboard) connected to multiple instances of the game (on one or more
> computers) and are controlled via actions available in the in-game /macro
> feature.
>
> Semantics issue #1:
>
> Is sending an identical signal to all client windows or switching between them
> to send commands botting?(note the player must still be there mashing the
> buttons)? In other words, what is the definition of botting as it applies to
> Ryzom?
>
> Semantics issue #2:
> Software, widely excepted on other mmorpgs such as World of Warcraft (examples:
> Keyclone, Octopus, etc) used to emulate a keyboard (aka sending whatever key you
> pressed on your main keyboard to multiple clients/pcs), is by nature, "3rd
> party". Is "3rd party software" synonymous with "bot" or "automation"? Are all
> types of "3rd party software" bannable?
>
> Likewise, hardware (such as keyboard with built in macro and rapid fire
> features), by nature, are "3rd party". What kinds (or uses) of 3rd party
> hardware are bannable?
>
>
> Semantics issue #3:
> Does multiboxing give a player an in-game advantage? Therefore, can multiboxing
> be considered an exploit?
>
> Semantics issue #4:
> Multiboxing can be considered by some as "against the spirit of the game" or, at
> least, "against the spirit of the game the way I want to play it". Is
> multiboxing against the "spirit of the game"?
>
> Semantics issue #5:
> Multiboxers provide any game with a significant amount of extra income, and
> that, and only that, is the reason why is it currently allowed. True/false?
>
>
> Thanks in Advance,
> Dustin
> ~Faile and company in Game~
i still have the response email
My reply was as followed
"Hi Dustin/Faile and company
Your definition of mutiboxing sounds correct to me and is "tolerated"
Other popular games also tolerate this activity http://www.wowwiki.com/Multiboxing
That said ..
1.Mutiboxing must not be used to cheat
2.Mutiboxing must not be used to harass others players in any way.
3.Mutiboxing or the configuration of, must not hack the client.
4.Mutiboxing must not be used to exploit any part or functionality of the game that would lead to 1 or 2 or 3
Multiboxing could be interpreted as a "playing style" and as such is a personal choice of the player, and the combination of players make up the "spirit of the game"
Botting could be described as "Any program or device that will make or take a action automatically without human presence"
unattended being the focus and this could involve any of the macro methods or programs you described, any admission or evidence of this activity will not be tolerated and any sanctions would cover all accounts associated with the player.
If another player witnesses or suspects another player of "botting" then they must report it in the normal way, there must be sufficient evidence supplied with the report for any sanctions to occur. ie screen shots of a chat screen with an admission that they use such and such a program or method while they go and have a shower or to the shops or similar such evidence etc is sufficient.
A CSR would need to make a determination on the player's actions and responses during any "suspect" game play activity and decide if it were are unusual in any way and take any appropriate action.
I hope this answers your query
Regards,
Mokoi
SGM Arispotle
Ryzom Support Team"
So if programs such as Keyclone weren't allowed, (which i would like to point out, in no way modify data from client to server, which is a violation of the TOS).
We shouldn't have been told they were allowed.
Now as to why they suddenly ban the use of Keyclone and like programs that still require manual play, I haven't the foggiest. Literally every MMORPG i've ever multiboxed, allowed and continues to allow programs such as keyclone. If you'd prefer to lose a bunch of income to pretty much banning your multiboxers I just lolz at you ;p.
As a player I did alot of multiboxing for personal reasons.
1. It's hard to find people, and/or enough people to experience the end game content, so instead of waiting around all day alone, i worked and made it possible myself.
2. Solo'ing in Ryzom is horridly designed and multiboxing fixes this
3. I like the Challenge of running multiple toons, it's fun and it's fun to show it off
For years i used my multiboxing to help others. Solo (multiboxer) treking many people, helping them down bosses to not take any loot. Mass farming materials to donate to a friends craft leveling.
I guess most of people's complaints came from pvp related issues with multi-boxing. Well as with any other games, multiboxed characters are easily handled if you know how to handle them. The character configurations have major flaws and rely heavily on one another to stay afloat so to say. If you take out the weaker parts of the multiboxers chain, they crumble.
I always found it entertaining that people focused on my strongest toons first, attempting to take down cosmose and Faile, as apposed to the much weaker other three.
There is another major thing people forget about multiboxers.
Sure the person may have five toons. But they put in 5 times the work. Leveling 5 toons, gearing five toons, takes quite a bit.
I keep seeing the misinterpretation that the use of third party software is against the TOS. No that is a complete misintrepretation. Or at least i hope it is. You do realise everything that isn't Ryzom is third party right? Windows, linux, MacOS all third party, Ventrillo, teamspeak, gamebooster, directx, Overclocking programs, all third party non ryzom developed programs that could improve your gameplay and give you and edge. If you could kindly explain how sending the 3 key to 5 different clients is botting. As you are literally pressing the button. No different then setting 5 keyboards right beside one another and pressing all the buttons at once. I just don't understand how you can equate this to botting, which is automation, when no automation is involved, everything requires in game macros and your pressing a button, over and over and over.
Now what is illegal, against the Terms of service on all MMORPG's, is botting programs. Botting requires the toon and/or toons to be unattended. any program that allows you to go afk, take a shower, make some lunch and all the while have your toons grinding out levels/profs, is botting. Spamming buttons for hours, is not botting.
Programs such as keyclone, octopus and various other multiboxing software that send commands to all clients are in no way botting. You have to push the button. If you don't push the button the toon doesn't do anything. It doesn't matter if that button is set up to make one toon jump and another toon dance. You still have to press the button. Aka no automation-no botting. You are in also no way modifying the clients data, nor are you modifying data sent from client to server.
I haven't been playing much recently due to a massive hardware failure causing a lack of monetary funds to pay for all my toons. However i got back to a good spot financially to discover that Ryzom has pretty much banned me from game play due to my style of multiboxing play.
To be honest I think i should be afforded some sort of refund. To put so much time and money into many toons. To have them just block off my whole style of play some months later, when i was specifically told this style of play was accepted with Ryzom. They are losing a good dose of revenue and potential revenue by banning this style of gameplay as well.
As for people playing other peoples accounts and sharing info, well this is a common practice among friends, as long as they realize they are responsible for what happens on that account I don't see a problem. I've never shared my Ryzom accounts, however in other games, such as Aion, and WoW, I have shared my account info, so close friends and very trusted guildies could use my toons to craft gear or down a particularly tough mob when i wasn't around. As for family using the same account, well duh they're family, who gives a crap if a wife plays on a husbands account, or a kid plays there dads toon for a bit.
You've lost me as a player. Don't get me wrong. I love the game and most of the people. But Ryzom has made it so I wouldn't be able to effectively play 3 of my toons that i worked so hard to level up. Which to me is the same as deleteing my toons.
My 3 accounts are unsubbed.
Never used any programs to control my other toons other than loading up two accounts up on one computer - the instructions how to do that are in the technical forum on the main website, and squishing the displays onto my tiny monitor (which was the reason I stopped).
I stopped my last subscription due to this thread and others like it. I got tired of the politics.
Take care everyone.
Moonlightmist
lol your the biggest botter and user of programs on the server, you bot dug for hours on end to level you crafting skills. your posts dont mean anything like jwenting you both set double standards, if fine for you both to run muntiple characters using third party programs but it isnt ok for others who can do it better then you.
My answer is very simple.
My opinion is that such conversation you got with Mokoi should have been public.
I mean: Mokoi, given the sensitive question from you, should have opened a topic on the official forum to speak about the argument and clarify to everyone the rules and meaning of "multiboxing" and "botting".
For me, using keyclone is an "automation". Even if you need to press the buttons, it's still an automation. That is my opinion. And, as me, many other people think the same.
So, given the different opinions about what is botting and what is not, the game owners, once they knew about your question, should have understood how sensitive is the argument.
And they should have written clear statements about it.
As i wrote in my previous posts, I don't want anyone banned. I just want, and sure most of other angry people, clear rules.
We already asked that in the past, if you go read the Boroshi's post about several questions, clearing the rules of engagement in Outpost battles and other questions.
Multiboxing, without any automation is, in my opinion, correct and perfectly legal, because you need to press buttons for each toon, as they were on different computers (and without specific hardware).
You have, obvioulsy, a different playstyle, and you consider your multiboxing with keyclone and macros an "art" of gaming.
I don't think so, but I can accept it as long as the game rules clearly allow it, with an official statement, so any player, before starting playing the game knows what it is and what it offers, and can decide if they want to subscribe or not. And can also decide to use your same playstyle or not.
Given the conversation between you and Mokoi, it's clear that the major fault was not from you but from Mokoi, leaving this argument private, not recognizing the importance of such questions.
That's it. Personally I hope you will be unbanned and the game owners make a clear statement on the public forum about this so sensitive argument. And, of course, that you adapt to whatever rule will be accepted (if you want ofc)
Once we have a clear statement, in one way or the other, I think many people will return.
EDIT:
last thing, I really don't understand all the WoW references.... I never played WoW and I never will. I never was interested in it. Why other MMO should consider the Rules of another competitor? I don't think other MMO do the same.
WoW is not the "bible" of MMO's... I started playing textual MMORPG (and graphical some year later) long before WoW. I don't care if WoW got 1 billion players, I care of the games I like to play and they must have their own rules. I suppose the owners of MMO should have the same care about their games.
Nickname registered on www.mynickname.org
Oh my accounts are not banned, but they essentially banned my style of gameplay. Meaning I have no reason to resub now lol.
Automation, perhaps there's a language barrier, but to 90% of the mainstream MMORPG's search there forums.
Automation is a program or software playing the game for you while you are not present at the pc. Which is the defintion of botting.
At least to a majority of the world, personal definitions and intrepretations aside.
It looks to me like Swindt just made a decision that these programs were not allowed, rather then consulting the higher ups on there opinion. Though Ryzom doesn't clearly state who holds what level of power in the game, there is no posted heirarchy that I've found. However i haven't indeptly searched for one.
At this points it seems there is no clarity from the game owners on there perspective on multiboxing and multiboxing software, just from one gm saying don't do it, and one sgm saying it's ok.
But as i understand it. GM's are not employee's persay but volunteers? So really a few volunteers are now allowed to make vital decisions that drastically impact the game?
If you use aripostle as an example, a few months ago alts, ran with multiboxing programs, made up nearly a 1/4th of the active population. By active I mean logging on more then once a week, or sitting afk all day at stables.
The rules are very unclear in terms to multiboxing. With no clear and concise definition, one is forced to take the interpretation of other mmorpg's to use as a basis for comparison. Sense all those types of technology are allowed on the bigger named games, WoW, Eve, EQ, Ect, one comes to the conclusion that they are allowed in Ryzom. And with conflicting answers from GM's, who's to say what is really allowed and not allowed?
Glad to read you were not banned. I hope you can find your way to enjoy Ryzom even with different rules.
But I want to clarify my opinion:
Speaking as a game owner, you cannot rely on someone else rules. You cannot ask to your customers to be well informed about other games rules.
Personally, till now, I never knew WoW allowed Keyclone, for example. Just because I don't care to read anything about a game I don't play. In the MMOs I played no 3rd party software was allowed, keyclone included. But this is not the main part of the discussion.
I can accept keyclone if this is allowed by the rules. The real point is "what are the rules", if they are considered ambigous or clarifications are taken privately? The game's owner MUST write clear rules, regardless of any other game around, because I, a customer, cannot have the knowledge of everything on the market. Even if I know WoW by name.... do you think I cared to read it's CoC or EULA or any other thing related to the game rules or their forums? Of course I never did.
I'm surprised to read that to play a game i need to know the MMO history and all the other games around.
Of course, by the game's owner perspective, this cannot be accepted. If they want to rely to common terms or common behaviour, they must specify them, and the context used, in their own rules. Or do you think it's possible in a service agreement to write something like "for this question, go read WoW's CoC"???? Of course it would be ridicule.
I have a game, these are the rules, enjoy playing it. That's it.
For instance, I didn't unsubbed in december because of this debate. I unsubbed for personal rl issues, but when I decided to come back at beginning of february, I jumped into these topics, here and other forums. So, I decided to wait, because I want to play Ryzom, but I want clear rules for everyone.
So, the point is the Ryzom's owner (not gm's or volunteers, that are not guilty, in absence of directions from the owner) must tell the whole community, publicly, what is allowed and what's not. They must update the CoC and write into the official "externally accessible" forum. Writing anything into the ingame forum has no sense at all.
Nickname registered on www.mynickname.org