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Bring back dungeon crawls!
Ozivois
Member UncommonPosts: 598
I miss the MMOs with the classic dungeon crawls. None of the mobs are soloable, the mobs repop within a few minutes after you kill them, and there is a long trip to get to the back of the dungeon. The party had to make sure it never wiped or lost its casters because there were very few ways to get back to the party if you got killed, respawned and had to find your way back to your party.
If you try to get back to your party it was practically impossible.
AoC had some areas like this such as Onyx, but not nearly enough content like this throughout the levels.
Comments
Not interested. Make very frusting gameplay.
i don't want to commit whole nite to a dungoen .. 1-2 hours is the right length. And this business about not be able to get back to the group means a lot of time wasted.
Not interested. Make very frusting gameplay.
i don't want to commit whole nite to a dungoen .. 1-2 hours is the right length. And this business about not be able to get back to the group means a lot of time wasted.
I think this explains why an entire game isn't written based around the idea right now.
I think you could do it, but it would almost have to work like getting a group together for some P&P D&D or Warhammer. You get your group together, everyone joins up on the server, which is owned by your group or something in your group, and then you proceed with the adventure. This seems like how Never Winter Nights could work, but I've never played it, so I can't be sure. Seems like this type of things would have to be in addition to all the rest of the game play and not the main focus of the game.
I freely admit I could be wrong here...there are a lot of people who spend a LOT of time doing raids in WoW. They just don't seem to want to spend a lot of time on the dungeons leading up to the raids. So if you started the game with a very short trip to get ready for raids and then the rest of the game was raids maybe. If you nix most of the world content, a lot of your development costs go with it. The world exists for you to get to the dungeons. That type of things.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Personally I think even 1-2 hours is too long. Offer challenging 30-min wings to a dungeon. If I have time, I can chain each wing together into a 2-hour experience and earn an extra piece of bonus loot or two, but otherwise I can reliably play for exactly as long as I have time for.
I think it's pretty crazy that Blizz went back to ~1.5 hour heroics, personally. Their most popular dungeon of all time (Scarlet Monastery) was popular largely due to the bite-sized session sizes. All they needed to do was give a light "dungeon chain" bonus for those who have time to do everything at once and it's the perfect setup.
Longer than 2 hours is just nuts and relegates a game to an ultra-niche audience.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Ask yourself what is the most fun part of the dungeon crawl that people love. And the answer is boss fight. Thus, any design that focuses on boss fight and minimize other aspects will be popular.
Witness TOC where Blizzard took out all the trash and dungeon crawls and people love it. People also like many smaller dungeons, as opposed to one big one .. so that they can manage their play time better.
First, I loved UO's dungeons. Get rid of the PKing, add in your idea of sections, and just go where you want to go. (I'm pretty sure this isn't what you had in mind
) And when you need to log, go off to one of the safe areas and make a camp.
Once upon a time....
You were rewarded for doing this in the old games, The problem is that they kept the rewards the same but cut down the dungeon 75% in size.
Massive dungeons should exists and be rewarded as such. They should not be forced, you shopuld be able to run 4 smaller dungeons instead, but you should not get more reward for the 4 small.
Besides that I think that the games are too focused on raids today. They have been around since EQ and it worked fine there but in many games Raiding is more or less the entire point of the game and that is rather sad, EQ had so much more and only using one aspect makes the game more boring at least to me.
YOu stop and come back tomorrow. The key is that it is POSSIBLE to do it in a short time.
No one says you have to allow people to do it every time they try. There are guilds who never kill the LK before they have 85 gear. That is ok. The key is the encounter does not require 10 hours to do on every try.
I miss big dungeons.
I think every dungeon/raid focused game should have at least one optional big ass dungeon that takes all day to finish.
Kinda like the Old BRD. Remember trying to finish all those quests with the same group?
My first time in that place i believe we spend five hours in there.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
I'm confused. Challenge is separate from duration:
Challenge = how much skill is needed to succeed?
Duration = how long is required to complete the activity?
So when I say challenging 30-min dungeons I mean exactly that: short-duration dungeons which are also challenging. Although really what I mean is the option of challenge (not just 1 super-hard version of the dungeon) with appropriately scaled rewards (so the more you challenge yourself, the faster you advance.)
It's disturbing how often I have to explain that duration/timesink is separate from challenge in MMORPGs. Every death penalty discussion I have to re-iterate that timesink and punishment don't make games harder, they just make them more tedious.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Anyone else particularly sick of long dungeons entirely? It just seems like a cheap way for a developers to force us to play through the same content over and over again.
Sure, just...
add a Diablo 2-style waypoint system to let me teleport to any leg of the dungeon I've reached.
remove any sense of "camping" an area (mitigate against other players ruining my fun in a non-PVP manner.) I logged on to experience that epic fight with the boss, not to watch 3 groups before me do it (while doing nothing interesting.)
Basically, let's not backpedal the genre into the mistakes of the past where players were confronted with bad gameplay. If devs can't learn from the mistakes of the past, they're doomed to repeat them.
Although I always got the sense that UO dungeons weren't tightly balanced to offer interesting fights. While it could be argued that many WOW dungeons are similarly weak on balance (especially during WOTLK) they have at least got back to offering fights where your decisions matter during each fight. So if that was true of UO that'd be a third change I would be sure to make (although maybe since my original post mentions "challenge" already it's not necessary for me to say this :P)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
You just have to be patient, Torchlight MMO in the making.
http://www.pathofexile.com/
This looks promising imo
Preview here: http://www.gameplanet.co.nz/pc/games/165482/previews/136369.Path-of-Exile/
"It'll be dark soon."
"Aye...that it will."
Your logic fails. For example, the LK heroic fight is challenging and it takes a lot LESS than 30 min to go through if you can do it. Otherwise, you can just wipe and wipe.
Time has NOTHING to do with the level of challenge.
I agree on all of that.
UO had the teleport system using runes that you marked at any spot, then you could "recall" to that spot later.
Camping was never a problem in UO due to quick spawns. In fact, if the other players were decent, you combined efforts and helped eachother. I met lots of new friends that way in UO. Healing, resurrecting, helping get to corpses or get loot back that the spawn took, etc.
There was the problem of griefers in non-PvP form, even if you took out the PKers. They would train MOBs onto you, loot you, kill steal from you, etc. Again, if we remove Looting as we did PKing, that leaves the other things. UO later solved kill stealing by dividing loot according to damage, and all you saw for the first minute or 2 was what your share was. Then anything players didn't take yet dropped down into one MOB corpse. That leaves MOB training as a grief tactic. And in my mind, that should not be a problem. The MOBs are on them, and if players can't simply take off an run to avoid it that's on them for being obstinant. Players want a perfect world, then complain when it becomes too easy because all the problems and obstacles are removed. If players want a more exciting and interesting game, they need to let loose on demanding perfection. That's why the Clones make Single Player games disguised as "Massively Multiplayer" via a graphic chatroom.
Once upon a time....
Have you played Everquest 2 much? That game had some pretty amazing dungeon crawls. Most notably from my own experience were Solusek's Eye, Nektropos Castle, and Castle Mistmoore.
I picked it up early last year with 3 of my friends, it was really fun leveling together and playing through the dungeons in EQ2. I really liked that you could easily lock your level. It made it possible for us to go through many of the dungeons at a certain level so we didn't trivialize the experience. We did that for a lot of the dungeons as we leveled up, when we got bored of one place, we just unlocked our levels and found another dungeon.
The most important thing about dungeon crawls is to do it with people that have common goals, helps keep the fun:drama further to the left.
If you can avoid the trend of rat racing to the level cap, there are a lot of fun experiences and places to explore, not just in EQ2, but in any game.
That's one of the things I could live without. Grind is essential to MMO's survival, but that kind of grind can be a huge, huge turn off.
Purpose in life is not to gain things, but experience. - Rover64dd
Sorry ill take my dungeons that are longer then 2 hours it will stop the casual players from over running the genre . IF YOU DONT HAVE THE TIME TO DO IT THEN DONT DO IT I am sick and tired of this attitude like you are owed something here. Here is a expmple of what bothers me more then anything oh this dingeon is to hard why is it fair the hardcore gamers can clear it but we cant it shouldnt be this way it should be so we can all clear it . Want some more food you big babys if the dingeon is to hard or to long simple dont do it you are not obligated to have the same gear as the hardcore guilds or players because you dont work for it they do .
This is where the Casual gamers are killing the Genre if you want your easy and less time cosuming things stay and play WoW or wait for a new game that has the same to cater for you guys its about time some developer stops listening to what the customer says and develope there games the way they inteded to .
Its about time a Developer brings Back the EQ style of raids and dungeons where you had to actually rely on each other to finish things where it took alot of players dosnt have to be 140 ppl like it use to be but more then 24 and god dam make it long so it takes 3-4 hours to clear the dungeon instead of 30 mins.
Right idea, not sure why the insluting tone was needed. It makes a game cool if there is a dungeon that is too tough for you to handle. It also gives you something to shoot for. Making it so that every player can do every bit of content may appeal to the casual players, but the guys who play 30 hours a week don't get a feeling of accomplishment.
FFXI Super-bosses anyone?
This is where the Casual gamers are killing the Genre if you want your easy and less time cosuming things stay and play WoW or wait for a new game that has the same to cater for you guys its about time some developer stops listening to what the customer says and develope there games the way they inteded to .
Its about time a Developer brings Back the EQ style of raids and dungeons where you had to actually rely on each other to finish things where it took alot of players dosnt have to be 140 ppl like it use to be but more then 24 and god dam make it long so it takes 3-4 hours to clear the dungeon instead of 30 mins.
Right idea, not sure why the insluting tone was needed. It makes a game cool if there is a dungeon that is too tough for you to handle. It also gives you something to shoot for. Making it so that every player can do every bit of content may appeal to the casual players, but the guys who play 30 hours a week don't get a feeling of accomplishment.
Oh, they still play 30 hours a week or more. They just spend a lot of time yelling at everyone else in the guild about how slow they progress through the raids. :-)
I think the idea of a long adventure is cool. In practice though, it only works well for a few people. It certainly wouldn't work for me. If another part of my life didn't interfere, I'd probably just lose interest.
My son plays GURPS with some friends and they can spend a month of Sundays going through a campaign. It works because they all have an idea of what's going on, they can always pick up where they left off, and if one of them drops out for a Sunday, it doesn't blow it for everyone else. It doesn't mess anything up when they come back the following Sunday either. If you had a long term dungeon that worked kind of like that (or a whole world of long term dungeons) it could work and be functional.
I think if you can procedurally generate dungeon content, along with some random content and have it make sense, you could do both short term and long term dungeons. Even "theme" dungeons. You have to minimize the development costs in setting up these dungeons so it's attractive to developers. Then it doesn't matter if only 4% of your population does the long term, large time investment dungeon/raid.
Or you could just play Diablo III which is more or less one long term dungeon crawl.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Which MMOs are these where dungeon content could not be soloed? My chanter, bard, necro, druid, etc say nearly all of EQ was reasonablly soloable (until PoP where things really changed up) ;p
Was it UO? Na, everything was soloable.
What is Meridian? Was it some random MUD? Or was it just FFXI and its ladybugs of doom?
Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.
If you dont know it yes you prolly think this way, but a challenge is just much more fun and adventures then a safe dungeon with no risk.
Im sure becouse of players like you we soon have dungeon where you can have every meter a chest with goodies or mobs that stand still do nothing and you kill and you get all shiny things you desire and after 20min fully equipped with godlike gear you always wanted:P
Time waste is something all you new players keep saying this in mean while you all play many hours a day doing same shit over and over again lol.
Maybe a gameworld with dungeon crawlers and dungeons for lazy no risk dungeons for all who want there stuff handed easy on silver plate should give both groups satisfaction they want hehe.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
I guess I'm in the minority.
I spent tonight dungeon grinding with a group in Vanguard (we started with a quest and didn't leave when we finished) that laster for a good 3+ hours, I was having a blast and didn't want to leave but we lost a couple of members who wanted to get some sleep.
As long as you're fine with the niche, indie budgets to go with the niche, indie games you seem to want, that's fine. Those types of games can and do get made.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver