I am also saying that people often miss the supply side of an equation when talking about supply and demand. We dont know if people would like turn based because nobody ever makes them outside of the grade B gaming world
It's been tried and tested. Goes over very well in Japan, and did ok in NA. EU has a lot of turn-based titles, and they recently got a treat in the form of the latest Dragon Quest game, where it sold exceptionally well, indicating that there is a decent market for it there, as well.
Basically, we already know that turn-based CRPGs sell well in Japan and the EU, but unless it says 'Final Fantasy' on the box probably won't do well in NA.
I cant speak to other countries but here in the US I know very very very few players who even fully understand what I mean when I say turned based.
Turned based stradegy game vs real time stradegy game is radically different an in my view turned based is EXTREEMLY better.
Silent Storm is a perfect example of a perfect tactical turned based game
You're preaaching to the choir. Turn-based started to become a real hard sell in NA as early as 2001. Right now you'd have about as much luck selling turn-based MMOs as you would point-n-click movement here. The exception would be a TCG or other system far removed from the comfort zone of what the average MMO gamer wants in his standard fantasy MMO.
I think the debate resides in the question of is it supply or is it demand. I think its a bit of both but more supply than people give credit too. Its amazing how an entire industry can mold consumers by controlling the supply chain.
That would be amazing, and if it ever happens, let us know. If there's a big demand somewhere for turn-based games, link your favorite dev to where these people are hanging out. As I said before, people stopped buying them so most developers stopped making them. Creating games for mobile and PC is so accessible and much easier to get into now that if there is a demand for some particular type of game out there, that blip starts to show up on various charts and reports, and the commercial developers latch on to it and start churning out games.
The most recent example is how quite a few devs recently (the past couple years) realized that half the team is playing some popular old mod called 'DOTA' on their lunch break, so maybe... just maybe... there's a market for that type of game. A couple years later, League of Legends, LOCO, Bloodline Champions, BattleSwarm and several other similar games start popping up.
If there is a secret society of turn-based fanatics, someone needs to tell them it's ok to come out of the closet. No one will make games for them if they don't know the audience is out there.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I was recently talked into buying Starcraft 2. The games are so fast you have to smoke crack to be able to keep up with everyone. Stupid click fest with no thinking involved.
To say "no thinking" is to fail to understand high level RTS play. Tons of strategy and tactics go into a typical high-level game, and I watch replays all the time where the 75apm guy beats the 150apm guy.
No you don't.
Even if such replays existed, you do not watch them "all the time". You probably saw one, once...
Starcraft 2 may be about more than just stupid click festing...but it's still a stupid click fest.
I thought it would be awesome for Starcraft 2 to be identical to Starcraft 1. And it is. Amazing recreation.
Then I realized how stupid and dull Starcraft 1 was...
Use Map Settings (Now called Custom Games) are the only cool thing about Starcraft. All that ever was.
IMO, Empire Earth 1 was the greatest RTS ever made. Simply AMAZING.
After that, RTS games weren't very good (way too exploitative and based too heavily on micro) until Company of Heroes & Dawn of War were both released. Amazing.
Unfortunately, Company of Heroes disappeared into the earth. How sad...it was so amazing...even if SEVERELY flawed game balance.
*sigh*
I am tired of amazing games. They are always so perfect except for one or a few MAJOR game-breaking flaws. Company of Heroes and Champion Online, both great games which were both ruined by the fact the developers just couldn't balance anything until it was too late.
They eventually achieved balanced (at least in Company of Heroes) but by then it was too late, and people still did small exploits (such as barb wiring people in) which it took the developers FOREVER to fix (and they did. But it was VERY late. Even later than fixing the overpowered mega-Tanks)
I was recently talked into buying Starcraft 2. The games are so fast you have to smoke crack to be able to keep up with everyone. Stupid click fest with no thinking involved.
To say "no thinking" is to fail to understand high level RTS play. Tons of strategy and tactics go into a typical high-level game, and I watch replays all the time where the 75apm guy beats the 150apm guy.
No you don't.
Even if such replays existed, you do not watch them "all the time". You probably saw one, once...
Starcraft 2 may be about more than just stupid click festing...but it's still a stupid click fest.
I thought it would be awesome for Starcraft 2 to be identical to Starcraft 1. And it is. Amazing recreation.
Then I realized how stupid and dull Starcraft 1 was...
Use Map Settings (Now called Custom Games) are the only cool thing about Starcraft. All that ever was.
IMO, Empire Earth 1 was the greatest RTS ever made. Simply AMAZING.
After that, RTS games weren't very good (way too exploitative and based too heavily on micro) until Company of Heroes & Dawn of War were both released. Amazing.
Unfortunately, Company of Heroes disappeared into the earth. How sad...it was so amazing...even if SEVERELY flawed game balance.
*sigh*
I am tired of amazing games. They are always so perfect except for one or a few MAJOR game-breaking flaws. Company of Heroes and Champion Online, both great games which were both ruined by the fact the developers just couldn't balance anything until it was too late.
They eventually achieved balanced (at least in Company of Heroes) but by then it was too late, and people still did small exploits (such as barb wiring people in) which it took the developers FOREVER to fix (and they did. But it was VERY late. Even later than fixing the overpowered mega-Tanks)
Who are you to say he doesn't? I watch many replays daily, and there are tons, where lower APM people beat higher APM ones.
Just to make things clear, I loathe Blizzard and all of their games, except sc2. And I think sc2 is currently the best RTS on the market. I used to think it's all about premade build orders, no spontaneity required ... etc, but after playing since release, I realised, there's a whole lot of creativity, but you have to work hard to get there. You have to learn how to macro efficiently, which is hard - basically this will get you in to diamond, and THEN the fun begins. Contrary to common belief, SC2 is about macro and mechanics first and foremost, once you have learned those well, which takes one month if you play SC2 as much as you would an MMO, then you can try all sorts of funky stuff. Come up with your own timings and build orders, test them, improve them. Heck, I didn't have so much fun, since when I built DnD characters on request.
I was recently talked into buying Starcraft 2. The games are so fast you have to smoke crack to be able to keep up with everyone. Stupid click fest with no thinking involved.
To say "no thinking" is to fail to understand high level RTS play. Tons of strategy and tactics go into a typical high-level game, and I watch replays all the time where the 75apm guy beats the 150apm guy.
There is no thinking involved.
I've recently been watching my brother play, game after game, he protoss cannon-rushes. That's not thoughtful, it's a clickfest and a grind, and for what? To get higher on the ladder? What's fun in that? What's immersive about that?
I want to out-think my opponent, and enjoy a game, not click like mad like some crack addict. Pass the crack pipe.
I was recently talked into buying Starcraft 2. The games are so fast you have to smoke crack to be able to keep up with everyone. Stupid click fest with no thinking involved.
To say "no thinking" is to fail to understand high level RTS play. Tons of strategy and tactics go into a typical high-level game, and I watch replays all the time where the 75apm guy beats the 150apm guy.
No you don't.
Even if such replays existed, you do not watch them "all the time". You probably saw one, once...
Starcraft 2 may be about more than just stupid click festing...but it's still a stupid click fest.
I thought it would be awesome for Starcraft 2 to be identical to Starcraft 1. And it is. Amazing recreation.
Then I realized how stupid and dull Starcraft 1 was...
Use Map Settings (Now called Custom Games) are the only cool thing about Starcraft. All that ever was.
IMO, Empire Earth 1 was the greatest RTS ever made. Simply AMAZING.
After that, RTS games weren't very good (way too exploitative and based too heavily on micro) until Company of Heroes & Dawn of War were both released. Amazing.
Unfortunately, Company of Heroes disappeared into the earth. How sad...it was so amazing...even if SEVERELY flawed game balance.
*sigh*
I am tired of amazing games. They are always so perfect except for one or a few MAJOR game-breaking flaws. Company of Heroes and Champion Online, both great games which were both ruined by the fact the developers just couldn't balance anything until it was too late.
They eventually achieved balanced (at least in Company of Heroes) but by then it was too late, and people still did small exploits (such as barb wiring people in) which it took the developers FOREVER to fix (and they did. But it was VERY late. Even later than fixing the overpowered mega-Tanks)
You're mistaking "thinking before htiting the turn button is Strategy" and "clicking like a crack addict in Starcraft is Tactics".
You've got to be trolling. I don't think I've ever read anything more ignorant about something related to Starcraft than your last few posts. I honestly think I lost brain cells. I'm not even sure how I'm typing this to be quite honest.
I was recently talked into buying Starcraft 2. The games are so fast you have to smoke crack to be able to keep up with everyone. Stupid click fest with no thinking involved.
To say "no thinking" is to fail to understand high level RTS play. Tons of strategy and tactics go into a typical high-level game, and I watch replays all the time where the 75apm guy beats the 150apm guy.
There is no thinking involved.
I've recently been watching my brother play, game after game, he protoss cannon-rushes. That's not thoughtful, it's a clickfest and a grind, and for what? To get higher on the ladder? What's fun in that? What's immersive about that?
I want to out-think my opponent, and enjoy a game, not click like mad like some crack addict. Pass the crack pipe.
Well, here's my take on the things:
Your borther plays to win and to increase his stature (ladder). That gives him a certain kind of joy. For other players, like me, joy comes from understanding the game, and from outwitting other players, who equally understand the game (read: high diamond league). You can't succeed with cannon rushes past silver - usually.
Here's the important bit though:
Just because your brother limits himself to doing cannon rushes over and over doesn't mean that's the only way the game can be played. It's your brother, that's limited, not the game.
You can easily out think an opponent, who is cannon rushing: all it takes is a standard timed scout, and the mental capacity to spot a forge, then scout out the pylon being placed, and kill it with some harvesters. There are methods of winning even after the first few cannons are placed, all you need is, like you said, to out think your opponent.
You only show us how limited your thinking is, by assuming the protoss is successful with cannon rushing, whereas he is more open to attack, than you would know. Of course, you'd need to drop your prejudice of the game, and actually start out thinking to realise that.
You're mistaking "thinking before htiting the turn button is Strategy" and "clicking like a crack addict in Starcraft is Tactics".
You've got to be trolling. I don't think I've ever read anything more ignorant about something related to Starcraft than your last few posts. I honestly think I lost brain cells. I'm not even sure how I'm typing this to be quite honest.
Yeah, basically. Mindless SC-bashing without actually reading/discussing the issue -- it's no surprise he felt SC didn't require thought if that's the type of player he is (mindless.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I was recently talked into buying Starcraft 2. The games are so fast you have to smoke crack to be able to keep up with everyone. Stupid click fest with no thinking involved.
To say "no thinking" is to fail to understand high level RTS play. Tons of strategy and tactics go into a typical high-level game, and I watch replays all the time where the 75apm guy beats the 150apm guy.
No you don't.
Even if such replays existed, you do not watch them "all the time". You probably saw one, once...
Starcraft 2 may be about more than just stupid click festing...but it's still a stupid click fest.
I thought it would be awesome for Starcraft 2 to be identical to Starcraft 1. And it is. Amazing recreation.
Then I realized how stupid and dull Starcraft 1 was...
Use Map Settings (Now called Custom Games) are the only cool thing about Starcraft. All that ever was.
IMO, Empire Earth 1 was the greatest RTS ever made. Simply AMAZING.
After that, RTS games weren't very good (way too exploitative and based too heavily on micro) until Company of Heroes & Dawn of War were both released. Amazing.
Unfortunately, Company of Heroes disappeared into the earth. How sad...it was so amazing...even if SEVERELY flawed game balance.
*sigh*
I am tired of amazing games. They are always so perfect except for one or a few MAJOR game-breaking flaws. Company of Heroes and Champion Online, both great games which were both ruined by the fact the developers just couldn't balance anything until it was too late.
They eventually achieved balanced (at least in Company of Heroes) but by then it was too late, and people still did small exploits (such as barb wiring people in) which it took the developers FOREVER to fix (and they did. But it was VERY late. Even later than fixing the overpowered mega-Tanks)
Who are you to say he doesn't? I watch many replays daily, and there are tons, where lower APM people beat higher APM ones.
Just to make things clear, I loathe Blizzard and all of their games, except sc2. And I think sc2 is currently the best RTS on the market. I used to think it's all about premade build orders, no spontaneity required ... etc, but after playing since release, I realised, there's a whole lot of creativity, but you have to work hard to get there. You have to learn how to macro efficiently, which is hard - basically this will get you in to diamond, and THEN the fun begins. Contrary to common belief, SC2 is about macro and mechanics first and foremost, once you have learned those well, which takes one month if you play SC2 as much as you would an MMO, then you can try all sorts of funky stuff. Come up with your own timings and build orders, test them, improve them. Heck, I didn't have so much fun, since when I built DnD characters on request.
I'm a person to say he doesn't. Most people don't sit around watches replays all day. Maybe a few replays, but daily? LoL...
I'm not saying there aren't people who do. But that usually when someone makes a statement like that, it's exagerated. They don't actually do it. Instead, they've just seen a few replays before. And if someone DOES watch replays daily...then that's cool. A bit strange... but good for them?
I haven't played SC2 very much, but if it's anything like SC1, which it is, it'll be about micro. Sure it might be different, I don't know that. Like I said, it was pretty boring.
Most RTS games are about micro, not macro. Even so, most RTS games are about exploiting game mechanics, not being strategic within them. Unless it is a Pro vs Pro battle, where the Pro's know how to counter all lame tactics.
I guess it really is different, so perhaps I was wrong. But there are SO MANY DIFFERENT players...RTS games can be really amazing or really crappy. There are newbies, moderate players, expert players, professional pro players, lame players (moderate players who know all the loops and exploits within the game mechanics), etc.
I hate that part of RTS. I had about 140 games on Company of Heroes, so I was quite good. My best friend who I played with, I'd defeat in about 3 minutes, because he had only about 40 games played. My nephew, in his first 10 made him an entirely worthless part of the team (stuffing 8 snipers in a single building). These are ranked games, not total games btw.
Granted I don't expect newbies to compare to others-- but my best friend wasn't a newbie. He wasn't bad either. He just didn't play as much as me, but we'd always lose because the average person we played had about 80 games in. And me? I instantly would be defeated in 3 minutes by any expert, and they would instantly be defeated in 3 minutes by any pro.
It's only when two people who are about equal in skill compete against one another (pro vs pro, newbie vs newbie, medium vs medium) where the game is actually fair and thus fun. Otherwise it's extremely boring for both the loser and the winner.
You're mistaking "thinking before htiting the turn button is Strategy" and "clicking like a crack addict in Starcraft is Tactics".
You've got to be trolling. I don't think I've ever read anything more ignorant about something related to Starcraft than your last few posts. I honestly think I lost brain cells. I'm not even sure how I'm typing this to be quite honest.
Yeah, basically. Mindless SC-bashing without actually reading/discussing the issue -- it's no surprise he felt SC didn't require thought if that's the type of player he is (mindless.)
Or those who like Starcraft are just blind to the fact it's just glorified button-mashing.
I was recently talked into buying Starcraft 2. The games are so fast you have to smoke crack to be able to keep up with everyone. Stupid click fest with no thinking involved.
To say "no thinking" is to fail to understand high level RTS play. Tons of strategy and tactics go into a typical high-level game, and I watch replays all the time where the 75apm guy beats the 150apm guy.
There is no thinking involved.
I've recently been watching my brother play, game after game, he protoss cannon-rushes. That's not thoughtful, it's a clickfest and a grind, and for what? To get higher on the ladder? What's fun in that? What's immersive about that?
I want to out-think my opponent, and enjoy a game, not click like mad like some crack addict. Pass the crack pipe.
Well, here's my take on the things:
Your borther plays to win and to increase his stature (ladder). That gives him a certain kind of joy. For other players, like me, joy comes from understanding the game, and from outwitting other players, who equally understand the game (read: high diamond league). You can't succeed with cannon rushes past silver - usually.
Here's the important bit though:
Just because your brother limits himself to doing cannon rushes over and over doesn't mean that's the only way the game can be played. It's your brother, that's limited, not the game.
You can easily out think an opponent, who is cannon rushing: all it takes is a standard timed scout, and the mental capacity to spot a forge, then scout out the pylon being placed, and kill it with some harvesters. There are methods of winning even after the first few cannons are placed, all you need is, like you said, to out think your opponent.
You only show us how limited your thinking is, by assuming the protoss is successful with cannon rushing, whereas he is more open to attack, than you would know. Of course, you'd need to drop your prejudice of the game, and actually start out thinking to realise that.
Your limitations ... not the game's.
This is the problem...
RTS games, on their own, require extensive committment and learning spanning over years just to become skilled. That is equivalent to MMORPG's which take years to develop a character fully.
It's not that I'm complaining about the few RTS games that are like that. More like... they are ALL like that, with nothing for us who don't want to sacrifice our life just to have fun in a few games.
Thank God for World in Conflict. A game one can actually become good at without having to know every single strategy in the universe.
RTS games are a blast....sometimes. Other times they're a lesson in futility, which sucks for even the winner.
What they need isn't a change in the game, necessarily, but more of a chance in the number of exploits, and a better way for equally minded/skilled players to compete with one another. And no, ladders don't do this. The majority of time I'd join a Company of Heroes ladder, I'd die, because they were extreme pro's. And all anyone cares about is the win too, which sucks. Few care about the actual fun of the game.
I know Game Balance is extremely hard, or else it wouldn't always be so messed up. But exploitative gameplay in RTS is so much worse than exploitative gameplay in MMORPG's or FPS games. Sure some weapons in FPS games are overpowered and unfair, but you still have a chance, and it's still fun. Sure some classes are overpowered in MMORPG's, but you can still beat twinks and enjoy because of it.
RTS games don't give the same kind of fairness when it comes to unbalanced game mechanics. In RTS games, one unit or tactic off-balance, and the entire game crumbles. Nothing like a MMO's class or FPS's weapon being off-balance.
I don't know why you keep stating SC2 is about the micro. Just because in silver people like to end the game before it gets too complicated for them, doesn't mean that's what the game is about. You simply can't finish a good player fast (most of the time). If you actually put some time in to understanding sc2, you'd see it's a macro game.
I don't know why you keep stating SC2 is about the micro. Just because in silver people like to end the game before it gets too complicated for them, doesn't mean that's what the game is about. You simply can't finish a good player fast (most of the time). If you actually put some time in to understanding sc2, you'd see it's a macro game.
That's the problem.
RTS games change way too often. EVERYTHING changes.
It's not the same game at any stage, and only gets fun at "end game" when you're a pro.
I just don't have that much time to invest in a single game. Let alone when I love MMORPG's just as much.
RTS games are among my favorite (all genres are my favorite...hahahaha...) but Starcraft 2 is just dull until, (im giving you the benefit of the doubt you're right) you become pro.
But to be honest, I'd rather be a pro at any other RTS game.
I've seen enough 3on3 matches of SC2 to say that it has tactics and teamplay. If someone doesn't think so, I challenge them to give an example of tactics.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
I don't know why you keep stating SC2 is about the micro. Just because in silver people like to end the game before it gets too complicated for them, doesn't mean that's what the game is about. You simply can't finish a good player fast (most of the time). If you actually put some time in to understanding sc2, you'd see it's a macro game.
That's the problem.
RTS games change way too often. EVERYTHING changes.
It's not the same game at any stage, and only gets fun at "end game" when you're a pro.
I just don't have that much time to invest in a single game. Let alone when I love MMORPG's just as much.
RTS games are among my favorite (all genres are my favorite...hahahaha...) but Starcraft 2 is just dull until, (im giving you the benefit of the doubt you're right) you become pro.
But to be honest, I'd rather be a pro at any other RTS game.
I am very far from being a pro. I'm just in the top 20%. Thats many hundred thousand people. I used to be a huge Age of X fan, still am a fan of the series, but I never was as good in them as I am in this. Sure, AoE had seemingly more decisions to make, but so does SC2, you just don't realise, that every little thing you do has a huge impact later on. This is even down to minute details, like: do I build 4 zerglings now or two drones. If you build the drones, 5 minutes later, you're ahead economically, but if he timing pushes you, and you're caught with no larva, you're dead. So you need to be proactive about that decision, and scout ahead to see what his composition is, and put yourself in his shoes, and try and see when his push would occur, if you were him .. etc.
Once you see and understand how the game works, you have so many things to do to be both proactive and reactive. You just have to get to the point, where you understand. I for example watch Day9 every day - replay with very analytical commentary. To the outside man, it seems like useless clicks, but let me differentiate between a good sc2 player, and a simply high APM one.
Some people spam. Mainly because of that idiot game called Dota. They click 6-10 times just to give a move command, that should have been done with one click. When I sat down to play this game, I vowed I would never spam. I'm at 80-85 average these days, bit higher with Zerg. I never click twice to give trivial commands, and even so I feel I don't have enough speed to do all the things I have in my mind.
I don't think you will ever see strategy in MMOs. At least at the level you may be imagining (there is always some strategy, everyone is choosing where to fight, when to fight, what to do, who to group with, how to build groups to be effective, trying to increase numbers, ect)
The problem is, who is making the command decisions over free thinking people that just want to have fun. A lot of people make some bunk reasoning about 'damn kids these days and their darn rock and roll music *shakes cane*' but do you really think that you would just heed some twat at the top telling you how to play the game? No. You would say, "Hey screw this guy. why should I listen to his battle plan? I just want to play."
You are thinking like you would be the one making some of the decision, but someone needs to be on the bottom. In fact most of the people would have to be grunts, and just like in real life, often the guy in charge really isn't that smart and gets everyone killed.
Now if you are talking about more tactics than I agree. There needs to be less skills, perhaps slightly slowed combat, and some how reward people for making intelligent decisions rather than a who can put numbers where faster. Now I don't claim to know how to do that, and it wouldn't be easy to completely revolutionize how RPG's have worked in the past 25 years and make it work flawlessly. However, I think it's worth discussing ideas. There are ways to do it for sure and someone or someones have the solution.
Sent me an email if you want me to mail you some pizza rolls.
You're mistaking "thinking before htiting the turn button is Strategy" and "clicking like a crack addict in Starcraft is Tactics".
You've got to be trolling. I don't think I've ever read anything more ignorant about something related to Starcraft than your last few posts. I honestly think I lost brain cells. I'm not even sure how I'm typing this to be quite honest.
Yeah, basically. Mindless SC-bashing without actually reading/discussing the issue -- it's no surprise he felt SC didn't require thought if that's the type of player he is (mindless.)
I was recently talked into buying Starcraft 2. The games are so fast you have to smoke crack to be able to keep up with everyone. Stupid click fest with no thinking involved.
To say "no thinking" is to fail to understand high level RTS play. Tons of strategy and tactics go into a typical high-level game, and I watch replays all the time where the 75apm guy beats the 150apm guy.
There is no thinking involved.
I've recently been watching my brother play, game after game, he protoss cannon-rushes. That's not thoughtful, it's a clickfest and a grind, and for what? To get higher on the ladder? What's fun in that? What's immersive about that?
I want to out-think my opponent, and enjoy a game, not click like mad like some crack addict. Pass the crack pipe.
Well, here's my take on the things:
Your borther plays to win and to increase his stature (ladder). That gives him a certain kind of joy. For other players, like me, joy comes from understanding the game, and from outwitting other players, who equally understand the game (read: high diamond league). You can't succeed with cannon rushes past silver - usually.
Here's the important bit though:
Just because your brother limits himself to doing cannon rushes over and over doesn't mean that's the only way the game can be played. It's your brother, that's limited, not the game.
You can easily out think an opponent, who is cannon rushing: all it takes is a standard timed scout, and the mental capacity to spot a forge, then scout out the pylon being placed, and kill it with some harvesters. There are methods of winning even after the first few cannons are placed, all you need is, like you said, to out think your opponent.
You only show us how limited your thinking is, by assuming the protoss is successful with cannon rushing, whereas he is more open to attack, than you would know. Of course, you'd need to drop your prejudice of the game, and actually start out thinking to realise that.
Your limitations ... not the game's.
I don't care about cannon rushing, I care about having to take methamphetamines to keep up with everyone else taking methamphetamines. Drugs are bad.
I think they love SC2 too much to admit this though, so they don't see it.
It's a bit futile to expect them to change their mind.
I don't even play SC2 multi (since it's so similar to SC1, which I've already put my satisfying 2+ years into.)
And long ago (SC1) I learned that for players who can't fathom the twitch skill side of Starcraft, really can't fathom the strategy side which emerges once you stop being bad at the twitch side (which ends up being just as deep as any good TBS game, but with the additional skill vector of twitch skill.)
That's the core of SC's success. But yeah, you can't see it and Nerf can't see it and no amount of explaining it in detail will make you capable of understanding it, I think.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
When I was playing DAoC, I always made the comment that it would be better, if they made combat last atleast 50% longer....This also causes balancing issues, if a game is not made from scratch for that, more closing time for melee, ect....
I don't know why you keep stating SC2 is about the micro. Just because in silver people like to end the game before it gets too complicated for them, doesn't mean that's what the game is about. You simply can't finish a good player fast (most of the time). If you actually put some time in to understanding sc2, you'd see it's a macro game.
That's the problem.
RTS games change way too often. EVERYTHING changes.
It's not the same game at any stage, and only gets fun at "end game" when you're a pro.
I just don't have that much time to invest in a single game. Let alone when I love MMORPG's just as much.
RTS games are among my favorite (all genres are my favorite...hahahaha...) but Starcraft 2 is just dull until, (im giving you the benefit of the doubt you're right) you become pro.
But to be honest, I'd rather be a pro at any other RTS game.
I am very far from being a pro. I'm just in the top 20%. Thats many hundred thousand people. I used to be a huge Age of X fan, still am a fan of the series, but I never was as good in them as I am in this. Sure, AoE had seemingly more decisions to make, but so does SC2, you just don't realise, that every little thing you do has a huge impact later on. This is even down to minute details, like: do I build 4 zerglings now or two drones. If you build the drones, 5 minutes later, you're ahead economically, but if he timing pushes you, and you're caught with no larva, you're dead. So you need to be proactive about that decision, and scout ahead to see what his composition is, and put yourself in his shoes, and try and see when his push would occur, if you were him .. etc.
Once you see and understand how the game works, you have so many things to do to be both proactive and reactive. You just have to get to the point, where you understand. I for example watch Day9 every day - replay with very analytical commentary. To the outside man, it seems like useless clicks, but let me differentiate between a good sc2 player, and a simply high APM one.
Some people spam. Mainly because of that idiot game called Dota. They click 6-10 times just to give a move command, that should have been done with one click. When I sat down to play this game, I vowed I would never spam. I'm at 80-85 average these days, bit higher with Zerg. I never click twice to give trivial commands, and even so I feel I don't have enough speed to do all the things I have in my mind.
Another Day9 viewer! *High Five*
I'm only Gold level, so I sometimes lose to cannon rush.
Back on topic; 3v3 high end WoW arena are considered pretty strategic. Rated BGs are definitely strategic.
Gdemami - Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
I think they love SC2 too much to admit this though, so they don't see it.
It's a bit futile to expect them to change their mind.
I don't even play SC2 multi (since it's so similar to SC1, which I've already put my satisfying 2+ years into.)
And long ago (SC1) I learned that for players who can't fathom the twitch skill side of Starcraft, really can't fathom the strategy side which emerges once you stop being bad at the twitch side (which ends up being just as deep as any good TBS game, but with the additional skill vector of twitch skill.)
That's the core of SC's success. But yeah, you can't see it and Nerf can't see it and no amount of explaining it in detail will make you capable of understanding it, I think.
Well I refuse to take drugs cause everyone else takes drugs, what's wrong with you man.
Comments
That would be amazing, and if it ever happens, let us know.
If there's a big demand somewhere for turn-based games, link your favorite dev to where these people are hanging out. As I said before, people stopped buying them so most developers stopped making them. Creating games for mobile and PC is so accessible and much easier to get into now that if there is a demand for some particular type of game out there, that blip starts to show up on various charts and reports, and the commercial developers latch on to it and start churning out games.
The most recent example is how quite a few devs recently (the past couple years) realized that half the team is playing some popular old mod called 'DOTA' on their lunch break, so maybe... just maybe... there's a market for that type of game. A couple years later, League of Legends, LOCO, Bloodline Champions, BattleSwarm and several other similar games start popping up.
If there is a secret society of turn-based fanatics, someone needs to tell them it's ok to come out of the closet. No one will make games for them if they don't know the audience is out there.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
No you don't.
Even if such replays existed, you do not watch them "all the time". You probably saw one, once...
Starcraft 2 may be about more than just stupid click festing...but it's still a stupid click fest.
I thought it would be awesome for Starcraft 2 to be identical to Starcraft 1. And it is. Amazing recreation.
Then I realized how stupid and dull Starcraft 1 was...
Use Map Settings (Now called Custom Games) are the only cool thing about Starcraft. All that ever was.
IMO, Empire Earth 1 was the greatest RTS ever made. Simply AMAZING.
After that, RTS games weren't very good (way too exploitative and based too heavily on micro) until Company of Heroes & Dawn of War were both released. Amazing.
Unfortunately, Company of Heroes disappeared into the earth. How sad...it was so amazing...even if SEVERELY flawed game balance.
*sigh*
I am tired of amazing games. They are always so perfect except for one or a few MAJOR game-breaking flaws. Company of Heroes and Champion Online, both great games which were both ruined by the fact the developers just couldn't balance anything until it was too late.
They eventually achieved balanced (at least in Company of Heroes) but by then it was too late, and people still did small exploits (such as barb wiring people in) which it took the developers FOREVER to fix (and they did. But it was VERY late. Even later than fixing the overpowered mega-Tanks)
Who are you to say he doesn't? I watch many replays daily, and there are tons, where lower APM people beat higher APM ones.
Just to make things clear, I loathe Blizzard and all of their games, except sc2. And I think sc2 is currently the best RTS on the market. I used to think it's all about premade build orders, no spontaneity required ... etc, but after playing since release, I realised, there's a whole lot of creativity, but you have to work hard to get there. You have to learn how to macro efficiently, which is hard - basically this will get you in to diamond, and THEN the fun begins. Contrary to common belief, SC2 is about macro and mechanics first and foremost, once you have learned those well, which takes one month if you play SC2 as much as you would an MMO, then you can try all sorts of funky stuff. Come up with your own timings and build orders, test them, improve them. Heck, I didn't have so much fun, since when I built DnD characters on request.
There is no thinking involved.
I've recently been watching my brother play, game after game, he protoss cannon-rushes. That's not thoughtful, it's a clickfest and a grind, and for what? To get higher on the ladder? What's fun in that? What's immersive about that?
I want to out-think my opponent, and enjoy a game, not click like mad like some crack addict. Pass the crack pipe.
You're mistaking "thinking before htiting the turn button is Strategy" and "clicking like a crack addict in Starcraft is Tactics".
Empire Earth I was awesome. Have to agree.
You've got to be trolling. I don't think I've ever read anything more ignorant about something related to Starcraft than your last few posts. I honestly think I lost brain cells. I'm not even sure how I'm typing this to be quite honest.
Well, here's my take on the things:
Your borther plays to win and to increase his stature (ladder). That gives him a certain kind of joy. For other players, like me, joy comes from understanding the game, and from outwitting other players, who equally understand the game (read: high diamond league). You can't succeed with cannon rushes past silver - usually.
Here's the important bit though:
Just because your brother limits himself to doing cannon rushes over and over doesn't mean that's the only way the game can be played. It's your brother, that's limited, not the game.
You can easily out think an opponent, who is cannon rushing: all it takes is a standard timed scout, and the mental capacity to spot a forge, then scout out the pylon being placed, and kill it with some harvesters. There are methods of winning even after the first few cannons are placed, all you need is, like you said, to out think your opponent.
You only show us how limited your thinking is, by assuming the protoss is successful with cannon rushing, whereas he is more open to attack, than you would know. Of course, you'd need to drop your prejudice of the game, and actually start out thinking to realise that.
Your limitations ... not the game's.
Yeah, basically. Mindless SC-bashing without actually reading/discussing the issue -- it's no surprise he felt SC didn't require thought if that's the type of player he is (mindless.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I'm a person to say he doesn't. Most people don't sit around watches replays all day. Maybe a few replays, but daily? LoL...
I'm not saying there aren't people who do. But that usually when someone makes a statement like that, it's exagerated. They don't actually do it. Instead, they've just seen a few replays before. And if someone DOES watch replays daily...then that's cool. A bit strange... but good for them?
I haven't played SC2 very much, but if it's anything like SC1, which it is, it'll be about micro. Sure it might be different, I don't know that. Like I said, it was pretty boring.
Most RTS games are about micro, not macro. Even so, most RTS games are about exploiting game mechanics, not being strategic within them. Unless it is a Pro vs Pro battle, where the Pro's know how to counter all lame tactics.
I guess it really is different, so perhaps I was wrong. But there are SO MANY DIFFERENT players...RTS games can be really amazing or really crappy. There are newbies, moderate players, expert players, professional pro players, lame players (moderate players who know all the loops and exploits within the game mechanics), etc.
I hate that part of RTS. I had about 140 games on Company of Heroes, so I was quite good. My best friend who I played with, I'd defeat in about 3 minutes, because he had only about 40 games played. My nephew, in his first 10 made him an entirely worthless part of the team (stuffing 8 snipers in a single building). These are ranked games, not total games btw.
Granted I don't expect newbies to compare to others-- but my best friend wasn't a newbie. He wasn't bad either. He just didn't play as much as me, but we'd always lose because the average person we played had about 80 games in. And me? I instantly would be defeated in 3 minutes by any expert, and they would instantly be defeated in 3 minutes by any pro.
It's only when two people who are about equal in skill compete against one another (pro vs pro, newbie vs newbie, medium vs medium) where the game is actually fair and thus fun. Otherwise it's extremely boring for both the loser and the winner.
Or those who like Starcraft are just blind to the fact it's just glorified button-mashing.
:P
This is the problem...
RTS games, on their own, require extensive committment and learning spanning over years just to become skilled. That is equivalent to MMORPG's which take years to develop a character fully.
It's not that I'm complaining about the few RTS games that are like that. More like... they are ALL like that, with nothing for us who don't want to sacrifice our life just to have fun in a few games.
Thank God for World in Conflict. A game one can actually become good at without having to know every single strategy in the universe.
RTS games are a blast....sometimes. Other times they're a lesson in futility, which sucks for even the winner.
What they need isn't a change in the game, necessarily, but more of a chance in the number of exploits, and a better way for equally minded/skilled players to compete with one another. And no, ladders don't do this. The majority of time I'd join a Company of Heroes ladder, I'd die, because they were extreme pro's. And all anyone cares about is the win too, which sucks. Few care about the actual fun of the game.
I know Game Balance is extremely hard, or else it wouldn't always be so messed up. But exploitative gameplay in RTS is so much worse than exploitative gameplay in MMORPG's or FPS games. Sure some weapons in FPS games are overpowered and unfair, but you still have a chance, and it's still fun. Sure some classes are overpowered in MMORPG's, but you can still beat twinks and enjoy because of it.
RTS games don't give the same kind of fairness when it comes to unbalanced game mechanics. In RTS games, one unit or tactic off-balance, and the entire game crumbles. Nothing like a MMO's class or FPS's weapon being off-balance.
Yep! This.
I think they love SC2 too much to admit this though, so they don't see it.
It's a bit futile to expect them to change their mind.
I don't know why you keep stating SC2 is about the micro. Just because in silver people like to end the game before it gets too complicated for them, doesn't mean that's what the game is about. You simply can't finish a good player fast (most of the time). If you actually put some time in to understanding sc2, you'd see it's a macro game.
That's the problem.
RTS games change way too often. EVERYTHING changes.
It's not the same game at any stage, and only gets fun at "end game" when you're a pro.
I just don't have that much time to invest in a single game. Let alone when I love MMORPG's just as much.
RTS games are among my favorite (all genres are my favorite...hahahaha...) but Starcraft 2 is just dull until, (im giving you the benefit of the doubt you're right) you become pro.
But to be honest, I'd rather be a pro at any other RTS game.
I've seen enough 3on3 matches of SC2 to say that it has tactics and teamplay. If someone doesn't think so, I challenge them to give an example of tactics.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
I am very far from being a pro. I'm just in the top 20%. Thats many hundred thousand people. I used to be a huge Age of X fan, still am a fan of the series, but I never was as good in them as I am in this. Sure, AoE had seemingly more decisions to make, but so does SC2, you just don't realise, that every little thing you do has a huge impact later on. This is even down to minute details, like: do I build 4 zerglings now or two drones. If you build the drones, 5 minutes later, you're ahead economically, but if he timing pushes you, and you're caught with no larva, you're dead. So you need to be proactive about that decision, and scout ahead to see what his composition is, and put yourself in his shoes, and try and see when his push would occur, if you were him .. etc.
Once you see and understand how the game works, you have so many things to do to be both proactive and reactive. You just have to get to the point, where you understand. I for example watch Day9 every day - replay with very analytical commentary. To the outside man, it seems like useless clicks, but let me differentiate between a good sc2 player, and a simply high APM one.
Some people spam. Mainly because of that idiot game called Dota. They click 6-10 times just to give a move command, that should have been done with one click. When I sat down to play this game, I vowed I would never spam. I'm at 80-85 average these days, bit higher with Zerg. I never click twice to give trivial commands, and even so I feel I don't have enough speed to do all the things I have in my mind.
I don't think you will ever see strategy in MMOs. At least at the level you may be imagining (there is always some strategy, everyone is choosing where to fight, when to fight, what to do, who to group with, how to build groups to be effective, trying to increase numbers, ect)
The problem is, who is making the command decisions over free thinking people that just want to have fun. A lot of people make some bunk reasoning about 'damn kids these days and their darn rock and roll music *shakes cane*' but do you really think that you would just heed some twat at the top telling you how to play the game? No. You would say, "Hey screw this guy. why should I listen to his battle plan? I just want to play."
You are thinking like you would be the one making some of the decision, but someone needs to be on the bottom. In fact most of the people would have to be grunts, and just like in real life, often the guy in charge really isn't that smart and gets everyone killed.
Now if you are talking about more tactics than I agree. There needs to be less skills, perhaps slightly slowed combat, and some how reward people for making intelligent decisions rather than a who can put numbers where faster. Now I don't claim to know how to do that, and it wouldn't be easy to completely revolutionize how RPG's have worked in the past 25 years and make it work flawlessly. However, I think it's worth discussing ideas. There are ways to do it for sure and someone or someones have the solution.
Sent me an email if you want me to mail you some pizza rolls.
Drugs are bad for you.
I don't care about cannon rushing, I care about having to take methamphetamines to keep up with everyone else taking methamphetamines. Drugs are bad.
I don't even play SC2 multi (since it's so similar to SC1, which I've already put my satisfying 2+ years into.)
And long ago (SC1) I learned that for players who can't fathom the twitch skill side of Starcraft, really can't fathom the strategy side which emerges once you stop being bad at the twitch side (which ends up being just as deep as any good TBS game, but with the additional skill vector of twitch skill.)
That's the core of SC's success. But yeah, you can't see it and Nerf can't see it and no amount of explaining it in detail will make you capable of understanding it, I think.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
When I was playing DAoC, I always made the comment that it would be better, if they made combat last atleast 50% longer....This also causes balancing issues, if a game is not made from scratch for that, more closing time for melee, ect....
Another Day9 viewer! *High Five*
I'm only Gold level, so I sometimes lose to cannon rush.
Back on topic; 3v3 high end WoW arena are considered pretty strategic. Rated BGs are definitely strategic.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Well I refuse to take drugs cause everyone else takes drugs, what's wrong with you man.