Grind is opposite of PvP

asdar · February 2011

I think they did a great thing reducing the grind. I wish they'd just zero it out. Max skills, Max stats with almost no 'training' period.

True PvP players don't want an unfair advantage. I'd rather lose a good fight than win a lopsided one against someone that doesn't have a chance.

This is one thing that Guild Wars got right. Short development time = good PvP, and then cosmetic things are added to give some flavor. If you want some fancy looking gear then you need to kill this huge mob, or harvest this highly contested item.

Other than cosmetics it's all about fighting and holding territory and resources.

To me a perfect example of this is boats in DF. If they made boats so that a very small guild could easily gather the resources and build one every day, then the waters would be full. Rule #1 would always be don't restrict the fun with grind.

DarthRaiden · February 2011

PvP is only one form of interaction in a MMORPG. Thts why i put GW aside after 2 weeks, it stoped intrested me seeing no development and progression.

btw

progression ..a very important word in a MMORPG. A gamebreaking one if there is no progression there is no MMORPG.

Annwyn · February 2011

Originally posted by asdar
I think they did a great thing reducing the grind. I wish they'd just zero it out. Max skills, Max stats with almost no 'training' period.

True PvP players don't want an unfair advantage. I'd rather lose a good fight than win a lopsided one against someone that doesn't have a chance.

This is one thing that Guild Wars got right. Short development time = good PvP, and then cosmetic things are added to give some flavor. If you want some fancy looking gear then you need to kill this huge mob, or harvest this highly contested item.

Other than cosmetics it's all about fighting and holding territory and resources.

To me a perfect example of this is boats in DF. If they made boats so that a very small guild could easily gather the resources and build one every day, then the waters would be full. Rule #1 would always be don't restrict the fun with grind.

Grind isn't really the opposite of PvP, except for tab-targetting games and skill-based games with no skill-cap or specialization. Even in games with levels, it's how the game balances the gap and damage output that allows player-skills to really decide the outcome of a battle. Those who have played longer will have an edge, but how big the edge is, is the issue. If the edge is too large, then it's best to reduce the grind so players can close the gap quickly, if the edge is minimal, then the grind really doesn't matter.

Good exemple would be Dungeon Fighter Online's PvP. A Level 15-25 can defeat a Level 50, the damages formula in PvP is different so that, while the Level 50 has access to a lot more abilities/stats/health/bonuses and can definitively kill a Lv.15-25 "faster" they will deal a bit less damage then they usually would, had the player been Lv.50 with Lv.15-25 gear (damage output is scaled based on the opponent's level), a good Lv.15-25 can defeat the Lv.50 with superior player-skills.

M&B:Warband has a great player-skill based combat, and the cRPG mod pushes it a little further. While the beginning is a little harsh with cRPG, once you get weapon and armor, then the grind doesn't matter as much anymore, and you can get kills with player-skill alone, even if you aren't closed to being maxed out.

As for DarkFall, the reason why we don't have much naval/siege warfare as much isn't because of the material grind. Players are so busy grinding/macro'ing all their skills and abilities or farming gold or armor/weapon all the time that at the end of the day, they don't really have time to grind materials either. There's too much grind in Darkfall which restricts overall activities players can do in a day without being set back for choosing one over another. If Prestige Classes/meaningfull specialization/Skill Cap/Reduced Grind (or other possible solution) were introduced, it would allow players to quickly complete their characters and finally be able to focus on other activities. Right now, players just don't want to leave their Clan City so they can AFK macro.

SEANMCAD · February 2011

Originally posted by asdar
I think they did a great thing reducing the grind. I wish they'd just zero it out. Max skills, Max stats with almost no 'training' period.

True PvP players don't want an unfair advantage. I'd rather lose a good fight than win a lopsided one against someone that doesn't have a chance.

This is one thing that Guild Wars got right. Short development time = good PvP, and then cosmetic things are added to give some flavor. If you want some fancy looking gear then you need to kill this huge mob, or harvest this highly contested item.

Other than cosmetics it's all about fighting and holding territory and resources.

To me a perfect example of this is boats in DF. If they made boats so that a very small guild could easily gather the resources and build one every day, then the waters would be full. Rule #1 would always be don't restrict the fun with grind.

Its a failure of understanding the game you are playing. With that said, I support zero skill MMO's I just do not think its this game.

Darkfall has FPS style combat but its NOT a platform to evaulate your pvp skills based on your control of the mouse and keyboard. There are however many other games that do.

just like the competition of chess is not determined by how well or how fast you interact with the clock, Darkfall compeition is determined by the story of the character you have created. In other words, the skill progression is the compeition in an RPG PvP.

Now having said all that, another important layer about darkfall is that its really not designed with 'pvp' in mind. Its designed with WAR in mind which is two different things

Sid_Vicious · February 2011

Originally posted by asdar
I think they did a great thing reducing the grind. I wish they'd just zero it out. Max skills, Max stats with almost no 'training' period.

True PvP players don't want an unfair advantage. I'd rather lose a good fight than win a lopsided one against someone that doesn't have a chance.

This is one thing that Guild Wars got right. Short development time = good PvP, and then cosmetic things are added to give some flavor. If you want some fancy looking gear then you need to kill this huge mob, or harvest this highly contested item.

Other than cosmetics it's all about fighting and holding territory and resources.

To me a perfect example of this is boats in DF. If they made boats so that a very small guild could easily gather the resources and build one every day, then the waters would be full. Rule #1 would always be don't restrict the fun with grind.

Some true PVP players do not want a game where you win all of the time. They want a game where there is risk vs reward and some meaning to winning and losing. If things are easily obtained there is no risk to losing them and therefore less emotions tied up to the outcome of your battle.

Guildwars has fun PVP but it is instant gratification and does not get your heart pumping whenever you play because there is no grind and no real risk. You cannot get much of an adrenaline rush with that kind of PVP.

Full-loot and the possibility of items breaking means a never-ending grind when it comes down to it because you have to be able to replace what you lose. This type of gameplay and risk vs reward system is great for an MMORPG because as you earn an income it is fun because there is character progression thrown in there as well so you end up enjoying the game for much longer. This is how all RPGs work . ... even on paper before home computers. I have been playing Darkfall for 2 years and still have lots more content to experience and things to look forward to.

I would have been maxed if I was impatient and grind or macroed but I haven't grind at all really (especially when compared to other FFA PVP games!) and win more often than I lose since a lot of things determine the outcome of a situation besides where your character is in the grind. I do not enjoy grinding and haven't had to. You play Darkfall how you want. You can bring real-life skills into this game to win . .. leading a team, scamming, negotiating, sneaking, basic military tactics, aiming a gun, etc. and it never gets easier the more that you play because greater challenges await you the more that you play.

Have fun playing your safe games. You will not get your heart pumping like mine does unexpectedly during almost every one of my gaming sessions.

I play Guildwars often. Its a great game to play for 10 minutes when I lose in Darkfall because winning is so easy and guaranteed that my ego is repaired fast from killing tons of people in their instant gratification game. I can only play that game for very short periods of time though because there is no risk vs reward system and as a true PVPer I need that in my main game. I am so good at guildwars though (not to brag but I am as it is an extremely easy game) . ... but it doesn't satisfy all of my needs as a PVP gamer but I still play it about 10-20 minutes almost every day because sometimes its great for instant grind-free PVP. Same reason that I play FPS games. I cannot get a rush in those games either but if the combat is really fast-paced it can break the sweat but if there is no risk than there is no adrenaline.

xpiher · February 2011

Originally posted by asdar
I think they did a great thing reducing the grind. I wish they'd just zero it out. Max skills, Max stats with almost no 'training' period.

Go play planetside and stop trying to turn DFO into a PvP only game. You don't want an MMORPG, you want an MMOFPS. DFO is supposed to be an MMORPG with lots of sandbox elements. It suppose to have risk v reward, this means that there has to be a grind for equipment, and character progression.

harmonica · February 2011

Originally posted by xpiher

Originally posted by asdar
I think they did a great thing reducing the grind. I wish they'd just zero it out. Max skills, Max stats with almost no 'training' period.

Go play planetside and stop trying to turn DFO into a PvP only game. You don't want an MMORPG, you want an MMOFPS. DFO is supposed to be an MMORPG with lots of sandbox elements. It suppose to have risk v reward, this means that there has to be a grind for equipment, and character progression.

It already is a PvP only game, just with an insane grind attached.

It lacks the non-pvp depth of games like old Ultima Online. There's not enough to do in Darkfall. There's not even enough PvP. Mostly, there's just the grind.

That said, I see the potential in the game. If they can reduce the grind to 0 (realistic skill cap) and add more stuff to do, I'd rejoin.

Greymoor · February 2011

Originally posted by harmonica

Originally posted by xpiher

Originally posted by asdar

I think they did a great thing reducing the grind. I wish they'd just zero it out. Max skills, Max stats with almost no 'training' period.

Go play planetside and stop trying to turn DFO into a PvP only game. You don't want an MMORPG, you want an MMOFPS. DFO is supposed to be an MMORPG with lots of sandbox elements. It suppose to have risk v reward, this means that there has to be a grind for equipment, and character progression.

It already is a PvP only game, just with an insane grind attached.

It lacks the non-pvp depth of games like old Ultima Online. There's not enough to do in Darkfall. There's not even enough PvP. Mostly, there's just the grind.

That said, I see the potential in the game. If they can reduce the grind to 0 (realistic skill cap) and add more stuff to do, I'd rejoin.

While Darkfall does lack the depth and features of a game like Eve, it does have fun and challenging PvE too. (Best AI i've seen in an MMO.) As for PvP, I get too much PvP, I wish I had less on somedays because it prevents me from skilling up because we're attacked every hour some days. (at primetime onwards)

xpiher · February 2011

Originally posted by harmonica

Originally posted by xpiher

Originally posted by asdar

I think they did a great thing reducing the grind. I wish they'd just zero it out. Max skills, Max stats with almost no 'training' period.

Go play planetside and stop trying to turn DFO into a PvP only game. You don't want an MMORPG, you want an MMOFPS. DFO is supposed to be an MMORPG with lots of sandbox elements. It suppose to have risk v reward, this means that there has to be a grind for equipment, and character progression.

It already is a PvP only game, just with an insane grind attached.

It lacks the non-pvp depth of games like old Ultima Online. There's not enough to do in Darkfall. There's not even enough PvP. Mostly, there's just the grind.

That said, I see the potential in the game. If they can reduce the grind to 0 (realistic skill cap) and add more stuff to do, I'd rejoin.

Too bad skill caps don't instantly balance the game hu

And DFO is a PvP centric sandbox game. Even if you could sit safely inside a city all day, you'd be only there to flue other people's PvP. The only reason EvE doesn't come off as a PvP centric sandbox to some people is because high-sec space = PvE haven.

I agree that there needs to be more. Crafting needs to have more depth, housing needs more customization (house plots are fine though), there needs to be more things like tresure maps (the small ones should drop more as well), resources need actual scarcity, etc.

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