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The Souls situation
tazarconan
Member Posts: 1,013
One of the main selling point of Rift is the class system and the souls system. I ll talk with str8 comparison that most ppl know so they can understand easier.
In wow when u make a character u have to choose from 10 classes. Each class has 3 talents trees(souls). If u take for example a shaman u can specc whenever u want to any of the 3 trees(souls) of shaman has,enchanment restoration or elemental.Same goes for other classes as well whichever u pick.
So in wow there are 10 classes x3 talent trees = 30 talent trees but only 3 talent trees active since u have 1 character (unless ofc u lvl up an alt).
In Rift there are 4 classes only but each class has 8 possible souls(talent trees) each. Let's suppose u take the warrior class. You can be one of these 8 choises anytime u want.
Champion: Wow's arms warrior
Reaver : Wow's Death Knight
Paladin: Wow's paladin
Warlord: wow's warrior/retri mix with buffs and debuffs and auras
Paragon:Wow's fury warrior
Riftblade: Wow's Enchantment shaman
Void Knight: Similar to Wow's Deathknight tank with sheild, good vs casters
So if u choose to play the warrior class in Rift the above 8 choises exist on what u may become.You have 61 souls(talents) to put into the soul trees(talent trees) .
SO..here lies the problem from what i saw.
In theory u can pick up to 3 of the above 8 classes and distribute the 61 talents as u see fit.
In reality though it takes 51 points at least to cap a tree so u can have the most important skills each class provide,so the remaining 10 points are barely enough for a 2nd class ,and ofc as u can imagine there are zero points left for your 3rd tree/class choise. ZERO SOUL POINTS= ZERO CLASS SKILLS
SO IN FACT we are talking each player will have 2 talent trees only active each time exactly same as happens in wow talent trees (in wow u have 51 talents and with 41 u cap a tree).
The main mistake in my opinion in character builds souls trees is that they tiered the skills and if u want to takethe most powerfull skills u have to cap the tree. Each 2 souls u pick in a tree a skill unlocks and u can use it. That way your choises are limited making the SO CALLED MULTICLASSING just a DREAM. It's exactly restricted as player's choises talking as muchas in wow.
The good thing though is that evey time u deside to respec u can choose any of th 8 existing classes/soul trees.
Then again a wow player friend of mine asked me some days ago: What i miss as a class in wow and always wanted to play is a battlemage ..can i do it in rift? Sadly my friend cant pick a mage and select as 2nd soul tree one of the 8 above classes.
That also will be a prob cause all these 8 souls are in fact doing the same thing as its class describes. Warrior Priest Rogue Mage.They are just doing it in its own way.
Comments
TAKE COVER!
I'm not sure you understood what the system is capable of, nor the amount of versatility in it.
First of all, you don't have to invest 51 points in a tree. For a good deal of people reaching the 31 points mark will be enough. That means that they'll have points to reach the 31 points mark in two trees and spare a tier of points for a third. Even the 31 point is not a necessity, but you can equally distribute points in three trees. It all comes down on how diverse or focused you want to become.
It is a good system overall and a vast improvement over the static talent trees you've experienced in other games.
Souls come with some basic abillitys out of the box when equipted. so could have 3 souls "socketed" and retain abilities accross all 3.
For example,
assassin | Nightblade | Riftstalker
I just have to have riftstalker acive to retain the "blink" abillity
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
Eh .... i higly doubt the way you analyse the things is correct.
Refering everything back to WoW when wow has just made stuff TANK DPSERS HEALERS ...
Without flexibility , so I don´t want to rain on your parade .
But its the biggest hogwash ever your description of the soul system .
Where does the beastmaster a warrior soul come in with a combination of other souls ? In your WoW estimation which warrior describes the beastmaster . Either you should spend more time analysing the souls or actually try the various combinations to learn that the diversity is indeed present. 51 points
Your post my friend is totaly bull shit! Don't take me wrong I apreciate the effort that you have done to make this comparasion but if you would know better Rift you woldn't dare to make this post.
In Rift we have is what we call ROLES. Yes, any idea what are roles? I will explain you then:
In Rift a Role is a save-slot for your spec. For instance, you could have one configuration, or spec, that is for Tanking, while a second Role is for DPS. With one Role purchased you can switch between two specs at any time so long as you are not in combat. You can purchase a maximum of three additional Role slots for a total of four.
I have a cleric in Rift with one of my roles build up with 3 souls : Cabalist, Inquisitor and Warden That's for magical range dps: caster. On another role I have another 3 souls: Sentinel, Purifier and Warden for healing. And a third role with Shaman,Druid, Justicar for melee dps. And I still have one slot free for PVP build.
Do you know what I have to do to switch from one role to the other??? Just press a button and there you go total different action bars that you have previosly saved .
What do you have to do in WoW to change a warrior from dps to tank??? Yes, you need to go to a main city talk to a class trainer and redo the hole build and put the new action bars.
There is were the difference stais and this is why your post is meaningless.
Rest my case.
Well, in the OPs defence, I've seen threads in the official forums as well, either requesting less souls, soul restrictions or souls to be given slower. When you've played in a certain manner for some years, it's hard to let go of the things you've been accustomed to do and try and experiment for a change. Especially with a game that, on the surface, shares many similarities with a lot of the popular MMOs that launched in the few past years.
It will take some time for the players to appreciated the versatility and for the developers to balance it, but eventually we'll get there. The game hasn't launched officially yet, so we've got more than enough maturing time to do.
No, the way the OP puts it is not the way the system works, and its 66 points total at level 50, it only takes 31 ponts to hit the top of any tree, the last 20 points are only required to obtain the last 4 root abilites and these are only for those that wish to specialize in a single soul (ie. raid healer). So you can easily hit the trop of the branches in 2 souls and still have 4 left for the 3rd, and thats IF you decide you MUST go top on 2 of the 3 - a 22/22/22 split works just as well. And this is assuming you have a need for it anyway. There is nothig stopping you from making 3 builds all with the same 3 souls - one with one at 51, the next with one of the other souls at 51, and a 3rd build with the last one at 51. And just rotate thru them as needed when needed with a simple 2 second switch time in the field, something you can NEVER do in WoW.
Also, he makes it out like you only select 3 out of the 8 (its actually 9 with the PvP soul) and thats it. Which is also not exactly correct, as you can have 4 builds of any combination of those 9 souls. And it takes nothing to swap between them. Not to mention his comparisons to the WoW classes are generalized at best. A Riftblade is not the same as an enhancement shaman I'm sorry but it just isn't. I played them both and they aren't even close to the same monster. An arms warrior is not always a dual wield warrior yet a paragon is.
Just so many assumptions in the OP that aren't correct. Saying a Volid Knight and a Reaver are basically the same with one using a shield and the other not....And being the same as a Death Knight...why...because they have death magic?? They dont even play close to the same manner.
Basically the OP has no clue how the soul system works in Rift and is trying to convince others he does. Dont fall for it.
For a start, "ZERO SOUL POINTS= ZERO CLASS SKILLS" is wrong.
For example, a Warrior can have 0 points in Beastmaster (chosen as 1 of the 3 of course) and still have a pet. It wont be the best pet but still.
Choosing 3 from 8 is 8!/5!3!=8*7*6/3*2*1=56. With 4 class types, that's 224 possibilities before you start to allocate points. That's some serious diversity.
How differently those 224 options play out, especially at end game, is a question I think we'd all like to know the answer to.
Only the alpha testers really know this.
You speak the truth.
However, It would seem that you are forced into "pairing" souls in order to avoid "duplicate" skills. if that system worked with 56 possibilities at full potential then it would be awesome.
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
Actually, you can Dual-spec in WoW now. You can have two specs that you can swap between with just a push of a button just like rift. Rift, of course, does a much better job by allowing you to have 4 roles.
To the OP;
Really? I mean really? Are you freaking kidding me? Basically what you're saying is "I want to be overpowered, let me be overpowered" and "I don't want to make tactical decisions on what skills to take, I WANT IT ALL" and you know what I say? Suck it up.
This is not a game.
The only difference is that in WoW you start with zero mana after changing spec, while in Rift you start with whatever mana you had when you switched roles. Buffs and special conditions are reset in both games.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Same goes for WoW.You only need to press 1 button and you switch to your alternative spec.Actions bars change too to the ones who had saved for each spec.You just need to be out of combat.
Woah ,woah wait wai wait here...When u put more and more souls in a tree the most powerfull skills unlock.From what i understood after several debaits here and in rift's forums if u invest 51 souls in one tree u get highest(strongest)ranks for every skill.Which simply makes u way overpowered compared to hybrid 31-30 speccs. At least that's what ppl claimed on various posts.. If u can somehow prove of your sayings that hybrid speccs can be as powerfulls as 51-10 speccs im 100% with u cause i too am always favoring freedom in players choises on characters builds.
There will always be overpowered specs no matter what they do to balance the 80 different class combinations.Maybe they could balance it after some years.But just look at wow thats been out for so many years and they are still balancing classes every few months.Not to mention that wow only has 10 classes.Go figure.
Some of them do share base abilities and there is a bit of overlapping higher up.
For example (for cleric):
Both Sentinel and Purifier got a base healing spell.
The higher up you go into Sentinel, the more you unlock AoE heal abilities
The higher up you go to Purifier, th emore you unlock shields and single target heal abilities
The 31 Purifier ability is a roundabout AoE heal. Ie, it converts all overheal sent to tank into heal for the rest of the group.
Sentinel seems to have less single target power but more 'oh shit' abilities.
The idea is that its up to you to create the perfect class, depending on the situation you want to tackle. The multiple roles are there to help tackle different situations. The most successful teams will be the ones that will be able to easier adjust to the necessities of either PvP or PvE. In other words, if you luck healers, some switch to that, if you lack tanks the same and so on.
WoW is an oddity in regards to balancing. By now they should have balanced everything. What seems to happen is that they create artificial imbalances, so people are encouraged to make alts to the new "cooler" class. Then after a few months they re-suffle the balance making other classes stronger.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Have a look at the builders and look at the spells or skills you get by putting 51 points and the difference between 32 points and 51 points . Look at them carefully and make an assessment based on your own experience of playing MMORPGs and decide do you need them ? Not every skill that is granted at 51 points is necessary in fact you would do well with 32 points in one tree and spreading the rest among the other two remaining trees. You need to access this yourself and determine the best spec for you.
For instance I would go 32 for Sentinel for the combat heal and that is it for me for that tree. I do not see the need to invest any furthur and will put the rest in warden and purifier for my healing soul. My DPS soul will be a druid /justicar mainly. The Satyr is a must I saw that PvP video with the satyr and that made my mind up. My PvP a druid /something but I have perfect freedom and the beauty of this system is that you can experiment and really go to town. This is the main reason I want to play Rift.
And all those people that are used to their "certain manner" need to suck it up and pick a soul build. The soul system is innovative. Last thing I want is a generic and dumbed down class system like WoW. Rift gives you flexibility like no other mmo.My post was about the supposed problem comparing 51-10 builds vs hybrid speccs. Concerning that u didnt answered at all.These things u say about roles are usufull allright.
Apart that aparently u havent played wow for years cause in wow u have 2 speccs..If u r arms warrior with 1 clicking also u go tank and vice versa (u have 2 speccs memprosed nowdays with bars memorised as well :] )
You really are completely wrong, both in comparisons to WoW and in theorycrafting.
It requires only 31 points to max out a tree talent wise and you have 66 points total, there is quite a bit of flexibility possible, in fact you could max out two trees if wanted.
For many souls the max ability alone doesn't beat the utility another soul& talents offer.
Yes, there will be cookie cutter builds, yes there are talents in many trees that really don't go well together and never should be taken together.
But I do see people combining different souls for this or that utility or to be better in this or that job very regularly.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html
This is a soul calculator. You favour warriors and I haven't dabbled into them as much as with clerics. Lets say we discuss melee clerics and lets say you pick druid as your main soul. The 31 talent is the satyr, a very good pet that gives a raid-wide buff of 15% more melee damage. I'd consider it as definitely necessary in group environment. I would also take the 36 points ability. Anything beyond that point though is not worth losing talents that I would take from the shaman tree and improve my personal (non pet) damage further.
It is matter of preferences and class design. In my opinion the 51 point abilities are not absolutely must have ones.
Edit:
Here's a build I like (could use more points into druid for more PvP abilities). It's not one of the recommended builds btw:
http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=00anj.VqhVA0V0z.Ee00M0c.V0x